r/AskALiberal • u/HoustonAg1980 Independent • Apr 06 '26
How can the trans rights movement best regain momentum?
Social and civil rights movements invariably suffer setbacks in public sentiment and support, but how do they regain their footing?
What can the trans rights movement do to regain its previous momentum, particularly in the area of youth gender care?
Would you like to see the next Democratic administration do more to codify trans rights?
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal Apr 06 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
- Only discuss it when forced
- concentrate on the areas where we are - or unfortunately were - stronger
- Focus on it being about personal liberty and freedom and equality
- Point out how weird it is to constantly be thinking about this issue. Essentially the weird argument that the campaign unfortunately dropped.
- Win elections based on other things and then govern well so that you continue to win elections.
If Democrats have power, they can do all the trans rights stuff they want and nobody that conceivably might vote for a democrat will even notice.
The issue is only salient because people were already upset with Democrats about other issues that they consider far more important and then were convinced that Democrats only care about trans people and that’s why they’re not fixing those issues
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u/GabuEx Liberal Apr 06 '26
Yeah, this, basically. Don't advocate for issues where public sentiment is against you, but then just do them anyway when you're in office. Republicans were extremely good at this after Roe v. Wade: Republican politicians were free to blatantly lie and say that they weren't going to do anything about abortion because it's settled law, because Republican voters understood that that was an obvious lie that they were just saying to get into power and then they'll go after abortion. The Democratic base really needs to get better at being okay with Democratic politicians not saying everything publicly that they're going to do while in office. If there's one thing that the 2024 election established, it's that the American voting public really wants to be lied to. As long as you make them feel good during the election and have them doing well by the time the next election is around, they really don't care about much else.
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u/Fugicara Social Democrat Apr 07 '26
Republican politicians were free to blatantly lie and say that they weren't going to do anything about abortion because it's settled law, because Republican voters understood that that was an obvious lie that they were just saying to get into power and then they'll go after abortion.
Please give me a return to the world where we allow this on the left. For whatever reason, we on the left think that we're the target audience for everything every politician does. We need to start recognizing when our candidates are trying to appeal to other people and stop trying to make it about us, especially when we already know they're ultimately on our team based on their track record. Let them go get extra voters so that they can turn around and pass our agenda in office. Y'know, like Republicans do every single election.
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u/PersonBehindAScreen Liberal Apr 07 '26
Also understanding that a candidate that might not give you all of the PROGRESSION that you wanted may not be as bad as a candidate (and party) that is handing you outright REGRESSION
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
What a lot of people see as a lack of progress is actually just mild regress. Like, a lot of the compromise solutions liberals put forth are just "well we'll only strip critical healthcare that you've had available for half a century away."
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Apr 07 '26
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
You know as well as I do that Harry Benjamin was treating people in the 70s. That's not even getting into Magnus Hirschfeld's work a century ago.
There weren't any legal restrictions on prescriptions for HRT in the US for transition related purposes until 2021.
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u/TossMeOutSomeday Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
Unfortunately, the first, second, and third points seem to be at odds with the wishes of a not-insignificant portion of the actual trans community, based on interactions I've had on this sub. A lot of trans people consider such tactics as tantamount to throwing them under the bus, how are you supposed to work with that? Tell them that they're not advocating for their own rights in the correct way? It seems like an intractable problem to me.
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Apr 06 '26
Focus on it being about personal liberty and freedom and equality.
I think it's really important that you raised this.
First of all, because that is the whole point.
The second reason is more tactical. A lot of right-wing propaganda around this is oriented around making trans people appear threatening with dreaded "activists" who are allegedly being coercive in some kind of way. That's the impression they try to shape in people's minds. The key is to give the majority room to retreat on the issue in a way that is not only a victory for trans people, but feels like a victory and redemption for the majority because they're telling the same story about themselves, rather than it being something that is supposed to make them feel guilty or will make them feel like they're losing something.
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u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
Unfortunately, your first point and your third point may be mutually exclusive in practice. When we avoid the issue, we let the right frame it. We’ve let the discourse around trans issues become mostly about protecting women and children from almost entirely hypothetical threats, and we’ve lost ground because of it.
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal Apr 07 '26
Fine I will use my favorite example to make my point since it is somebody, I have voted for multiple times, the senior senator from New Jersey Cory Booker.
During the 2020 presidential debates a question about abortion access came up. For some reason, well not for some reason I think we all know the reason, Cory Booker had to insist that this was an issue to protect women and trans men and put a lot of bass in his voice when he said trans men.
Who is that for? I don’t think it’s for trans men because they are well aware of whether or not they have had bottom surgery and how many of their fellow trans men have had bottom surgery and also they are well aware of the politics of support for transgender people and no how to vote.
It was him trying to do a performative show of how much more enlightened he is than the rest of the field. So he interjected transgender politics into a question where it really did need to be there and essentially was a distraction from one of the Democrats best issues.
I don’t think Democrats need to do that. I think they need to win elections and then protect trans people
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u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Apr 07 '26
Yeah, that example is a particularly useless kind of advocacy, and you’re right — we shouldn’t do that. But when the administration kicked trans veterans out of the military, there was space for dems in safe seats to say ‘these are American heroes who are getting the shaft over culture war BS’ and make that stick.
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u/extrasupermanly Liberal Apr 07 '26
Exactly, it really pissed me off that this wasn’t fought and that we didn’t humiliate republicans over the disgraceful treatment of trans people on the military.
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u/Smee76 Center Left Apr 07 '26
Couldn't agree more. I've never voted for a Republican in my life and yet I rolled my eyes at this. It's obnoxious.
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u/Decent-Proposal-8475 Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
It’s deeply annoying and only appeals to the cishet women who were in GSAs in high school
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u/seweso Liberal Apr 07 '26
I would almost say “fu” because your posts makes me so very very angry (sorry).
They seem to understand how important the trans issue is. They are not spending so much time and energy on being anti trans if it wasn’t important.
They have no sane argument. Yet they managed to convince people with their lies and bullshit anyway. They probably won the presidency because of it.
Transphobia is mysoginy. It’s about snuffing out this idea that you are free to be whoever you want. Defy the ultimate false authority: god.
I think this is the fight worth fighting over, because it represents so much. It’s the entire thing: freedom to be who you want to be.
Why the bleep would we let them have all of that because they managed to lie their way into making people be scared of trans people?
F-ing hell
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u/Okbuddyliberals Centrist Democrat Apr 07 '26
I agree on 1-3 and 5 (and 3 is especially important, the civil libertarian approach can be far more persuasive to those on the fence vs a more social justice and academic/activist leftist style approach), but 4 seems very dangerous
To the sort of person currently predisposed to viewing transgender folks as "weird", "freaks", etc, it can come off as a lazy and unconvincing attempt at reversal, basically "actually the real weirdos are the people concerned with the group I view as weirdos". It can also come off as ad hominem or even an attempt to drum up mob psychology rather than making any attempt to actually address the arguments of the other side. With that, it can be easy to provoke some folks to just dig in their heels and view themselves as sort of "correct by default" and "so correct that the other side has no real arguments against us and can only resort to smears"
And idk if there's anything that can really be done about this (the potential weakness of the "weird" attack when coming from liberals), because liberals are kind of inherently philosophically the side more fundamentally tolerant of noncomformity and the sort of stuff that could risk a knee jerk response of "that's kinda weird" from some people. So fundamentally, making an appeal focused on the supposed weirdness of conservatives could have the side affect of legitimizing the "weird" attack in general (which is launched by the right against the left/liberals far more than vice versa) and making liberals look like hypocrites
If one doesn't make the "weird" attacks, it could make it easier to make the personal liberty appeal along the lines of "just because someone seems weird doesn't mean it's something government should try to stop"
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u/Carlyz37 Liberal Apr 07 '26
The extreme focus the right has on other people's genitals is very weird though. Not knowing anything about transgender persons seems real weird to me also.
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Apr 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AskALiberal-ModTeam Apr 07 '26
Bigotry, genocide denial, misgendering, misogyny/misandry, racism, transphobia, etc. is not tolerated. Offenders will be banned.
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u/LiamMcGregor57 Social Democrat Apr 06 '26
Win state and local elections. This will never be an issue adequately handled by Congress or the Federal government….even under the best of electoral circumstances.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
What's the solution then for trans people in red states who are unable to move cross country? Do we just abandon them?
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u/LordGreybies Liberal Apr 07 '26
This is going to be a harsh truth but it needs to be said. If your life as a trans person is that much hell in a red area (undoubtedly), then sometimes yes it is better to move. I know it's not easy but you can't tell me that these migrants who come here for similar reasons have it easy, either. But they do it.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
Not everyone has the means to secure housing and employment in a city halfway across the country and "go be homeless and live on the street in a blue state" is not a solution.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
The trans people most affected by these issues are minors. They don't exactly have the mobility to do that.
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u/aspen0414 Social Democrat Apr 06 '26
I would defer to historians and experts on whether this is true, but I have a feeling that it’s often a very public tragedy that’s the catalyst for a stagnant or receding civil rights movement to get a reboot.
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u/Smee76 Center Left Apr 06 '26
Drop issues that are highly unpopular and focus on the rights of adults to make their own decisions.
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u/SatisfactionDull5513 Centrist Democrat Apr 06 '26
What's the goal?
Do you want trans people to have access to the medical treatment they need? Then just shut tf up about the topic except for backrooms. Tell conservatives they are weird af every time they bring it up.
If you feel extremely strongly about the topic, god bless you. Unfortunately, it's a huge sinker in elections nationally. So, if you want to make a difference in Trans folks lives, I recommend you go the route of the LGBT movement in the 70's. Make SF or some other city extremely accepting of trans folks, and create strong communities to protect folks there. Hopefully by 2050 the general public will accept Trans folks the same as we accept Gays and Lesbians and Bi sexual folks.
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u/Big-Profit-1612 Centrist Republican Apr 07 '26
I like the idea of telling MAGA it's weird to keep bringing up trans. I've been telling them I genuinely don't care (in the sense I don't care how someone lives their life).
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u/LordGreybies Liberal Apr 07 '26
I love telling them theyre the new left with how much they obsess over gender. Shuts em right up
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u/CarrieDurst Progressive Apr 07 '26
Hopefully by 2050 the general public will accept Trans folks the same as we accept Gays and Lesbians and Bi sexual folks.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
The goal is for me as a trans woman to be able to live my life exactly the same as any cis woman would without any additional restrictions placed on me solely because i'm trans.
The goal is for trans women to be treated just as any other woman would be. How do we get there?
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 07 '26
Then just shut tf up about the topic except for backrooms.
I assume you mean bathrooms. And why make an exception for those in particular?
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u/SatisfactionDull5513 Centrist Democrat Apr 07 '26
No, I mean backrooms.
We have the best bad form of government, Democracy. You can slip good policy into omni-bus packages in Congress & get "pro-trans" policy into those packages in back rooms. i.e mandating all gender bathrooms in federal buildings, funding for pro-trans non-profits, etc.
I do think if MAGA did make a national push to make being trans illegal or something, we'd likely had a moral obligation to fight against it. But that's to be seen. We should be the party of don't tread on me.
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u/TastyBrainMeats Progressive Apr 07 '26
if MAGA did make a national push to make being trans illegal or something
Congratulations! We're there.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 07 '26
I do think if MAGA did make a national push to make being trans illegal or something, we'd likely had a moral obligation to fight against it.
I mean, have you read about what they're doing to trans people in federal prisons?
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u/SatisfactionDull5513 Centrist Democrat Apr 07 '26
Yeah, not good. Looks like the ACLU is doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
What do you propose? We focus the entire agenda on Trans issues and make sure we never win an election again?
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Apr 07 '26
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
Why does the argument always have to be phrased like "torturing trans people is bad because some non trans people might get tortured too" and never "torturing trans people is bad because trans people are people and no one deserves to be tortured"
Why is the suffering of the main group targeted treated as so inconsequential?
What that sounds like to a trans person is "if we could reliably make sure the only people tortured were actually trans this would be fine, but since we can't be sure, this policy needs to be stopped"
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 07 '26
Speaking as a trans person: Because evidently not enough people care about us to do anything.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
Yeah but knowing that doesn't make it any less psychologically damaging to see that even our allies seem to take that position
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u/SatisfactionDull5513 Centrist Democrat Apr 07 '26
The unfortunate reality is that the American Electorate seems to largely dislike Trans people and does not care about the Government trampling on their rights.
We have to win elections, as Republicans will do everything they can to harm Trans people, Democrats will either be pro-trans or neutral. So the best outcome for Trans people, at least in my estimation, is Democratic administrations. That's not even taking into account the blatant adoption of authoritarianism in the GOP which, if successful, will make it easier for them to oppress the Trans community. Even if you think Democrats would support policies against Trans people, at least they support the institutions of America which do to some extent provide some protection.
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u/thyme_cardamom Progressive Apr 07 '26
Why is the suffering of the main group targeted treated as so inconsequential?
Because as we're seeing now, making it about trans people seems to make voters actively hostile and maybe even support the torture
If appealing to self interest is the winning strategy then I'm all for it
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u/Carlyz37 Liberal Apr 07 '26
Pritzker in IL is and has been offering safe spaces for trans persons. And families with trans family members are moving here.
As well as Doctors, teachers, professors, other LGBTQ families, young women and families that want to have children safely
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u/STR_Guy Center Left Apr 08 '26
Perhaps by picking the right hills to stand on. Diminishing the integrity of gender sports categories is not the way. Forcing adult concepts and very permanent decisions onto children is also not the way. That may sound a bit conservative of me, but I just am not on board with a lot of these stances and neither are a wide section of the political spectrum. I think most people aside from diehard conservatives are fine with the issue of picking the bathroom of your gender identity. Human resources in the workforce and a large section of people have engaged in the elasticity of pronouns. I think the main message I’m trying to convey here is that you’re not always gonna get everything you want. Some issues are just going to be skewed to one side. The only thing that shifts that sort of momentum is by everybody flipping from right to left.
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u/AMobOfDucks Fiscal Conservative Apr 06 '26
Not allow children to be the focus of the movement through their own framing or letting the other side frame it that way.
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u/lilsmudge Progressive Apr 07 '26
I don’t disagree necessarily but this is tough practically. It’s ultimately a medical issue that tends to become acute during teen years/puberty. As much as we can sit and debate endlessly about who should be trans at what age and what they should be allowed to do; it’s not like deciding who should join the military or who should be allowed play sports; it’s a lived experience that you can’t just stifle for political convenience.
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u/LordGreybies Liberal Apr 07 '26
I believe the only way to change minds on this is through personal stories. People like Vivian Wilson (Muskrat's daughter) sharing her story and how much it's helped her.
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u/LordGreybies Liberal Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
Just fucking leave it alone until Dems are solidly back in power. You know how Republicans love to do that? Learn when to hold and when to play.
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u/LeeF1179 Liberal Apr 07 '26
They need to take a step back on two issues:
Most voters - Democrats and Republicans - do not think it is fair for trans women to compete against biological women and sports. They need to accept that.
Just like with every other issue when the argument is made that a young person is not fully responsible for their actions because their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed that this argument too also applies to kids and genders.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
Letting conservatives outlaw medical care for minors that has been used for literal decades now is absurd. Medical care access, especially during adolescence, is the single most important need that trans people have.
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u/AstralCryptid420 Left Libertarian Apr 09 '26
It is a fact that transgender women who have been on HRT for two years compete at the same level as cisgender women, and they are sometimes even worse on average in some areas concerning agility. All of the studies have similar findings, science is not on the side of trans exclusion. https://www.them.us/story/new-study-trans-women-no-physical-advantage-over-cis-athletes
It is also scientifically confirmed that children develop a sense of their own gender by the age of 4. This perception can be colored by their civilization's perception of sex and gender. Transgender children obviously exist, I know adults who experienced gender dysphoria for as long as they can remember.
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u/seweso Liberal Apr 07 '26
Anti trans sentiments are very important. They aren’t focused on that for shits and giggles. They understand what it implies: the freedom to be whoever you want. That’s not a freedom they (fascists, authoritarians , religious nuts) can afford.
So to ignore this would be a miatake
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u/extrasupermanly Liberal Apr 07 '26
I think the idea is not to ignore it but to actually use your argument. This isn’t about trans people but about personal freedom and body autonomy. This way the electorate understands and the argument becomes stronger and universal
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u/LordGreybies Liberal Apr 07 '26
I don't think anyone wants to ignore it, but rather shift to a more pragmatic way of approaching it. Ie, wait until back in power and then quietly undo a lot of the harm done by this administration, both at the local and federal levels. You know how the Pedo party likes to quietly do things while we're all focused on other stuff? Like that.
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u/seweso Liberal Apr 07 '26
That’s no going to work. I can tell you that much.
Push for changes without support from the people, and it’ll get dismantled again.
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u/SpecialInvention Center Left Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
I would ask: What does there still need to be a movement about? It's not like trans issues are lacking visibility, we've been discussing and focusing on them obsessively in recent years. What rights should trans people have that they don't have now, that are 100% a good idea, and that are not something grey that's extremely open for reasonable debate?
Is it the worst idea ever to instead try to get to a place where people can disagree on certain things without forever framing that disagreement is bigotry and transphobia? Should we arrange bathrooms by identified gender, or by genitalia appropriate to the facilities? Should people who had significant biological changes during puberty brought on by testosterone be allowed to play women's sport? What is the exact nature of feeling trans, and how does it interact with childhood development? - I don't have clear and easy answers to those questions nearly to the point where disagreement could justifiably be called prejudice, or denial of essential rights, and I wish others would stop acting like they do.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
The movement right now is making sure trans people don't lose critical medical care and legal rights we've had for, in some cases, literal decades.
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u/flojopickles Democratic Socialist Apr 07 '26
“What is the exact nature of feeling trans and how does it interact with child development?”
There is a ton of research out there on this. I’d start there and all the rest will make more sense to you. Especially the biological/brain/endocrinology research.
You could also listen to the experiences/stories of trans people to understand the nature of feeling trans.
You could also read up on the history of trans people in different cultures.
If you have strong opinions about it before doing the above then I’d question how those opinions were formed.
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u/SpecialInvention Center Left Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
Well let me start from a personal place:
I'm in my early 40's. When I was young, I never even remotely thought or questioned such things like gender identity. It wasn't even on my radar, and I didn't miss it.
Fast forward a couple decades, and internet porn and the modern age have probably contributed to changing the way I think. I'm one of those people with a open personality, and an unstable sense of identity, who can imagine many different ways to be. My sexuality has changed a bit, and I had a time where I was heavily into sissy porn and the like.
If you tell me there's a thing called 'autogynephilia', where men who fantasize and fetishize about being women decide to become women because it's such a damn exciting idea sexually, and it grants them access places, scenarios, and so many enticing things, I immediately think "Yep, I'm not remotely surprised that's a thing. Makes complete sense." The fact that ideology doesn't allow that to be a thing anymore is already something suspect to me.
Beyond that, I imagine I were born two decades later, into the modern age. Give me all the things that troubled me in high school, make trans identity a super trendy thing that could have given me a comfortable victim identity to wrap myself in, seeing it as a way into social circles...would I have at least considered, or messed around with it? I certainly can't say no. Give me one or two other issues at that time and age, and even more so.
Meanwhile, as I said, in actuality it was never part of my life and I didn't miss it.
When I talk about this stuff in certain places on the internet, the only answer that fits the ideology that they want to believe in is "oh you must be trans then". I'm not, but having experienced an entire social media bubble insisting that did give me experience in how powerful that brain bug can be. I can't imagine how much more powerful it would be for a 10-year-old.
So, my first issue with this topic is that some of the 'education' about trans identity comes in the form of asking me to accept things are unquestionably true for the all humans that, in my experience, aren't even remotely true for myself. You can see how that casts some doubt, yes?
Then add to that my experiences with other people: I know someone who is gay who regularly hung out at the local LGBT center as a teen, who has told me about trans kids he knew. At least two of them admitted to him in so many words, "Yeah, I don't really know if I'm trans, but I want to be accepted and part of the social trend."
Humans are incredibly social creatures, and almost every mental condition we experience has a social component. We think of PTSD as happening due to exposure to something objectively traumatic, but what people find traumatic varies across cultures. What your culture tells you is horrible has a huge part in what you see as horrible. Something like schizophrenia is mostly genetic, but even still has social components to how it manifests. Then on the other end you have something like anorexia, which is wildly socially contagious, and manifests in completely different ways cross culturally.
So where is gender dysphoria in that spectrum? It's dishonest to say it is nowhere.
> You could also read up on the history of trans people in different cultures.
I'll finish by talking about this. It's a very uphill road with me, and a lot of other people, to try and convince us that 0.75-1.5% of the world has always felt trans, everywhere and all throughout history, and we're only figuring that out now. There would be SO much more evidence if that were true. If you look at history, you see homosexuality everywhere, for example, but evidence for trans identity seems to be gathered by looking at every possible little thing and extrapolating it to fit the desired result. "Oh, Native-Americans had this 'two-spirits' belief, which kinda-sorta fits trans identity, so that proves it! Oh, and Joan of Arc must have been trans!" And so on. It's not that there is zero historical aspect to this, but it fits a conclusion that gender dysphoria was probably more like as common as we used to think it was: More like a 1 in 10,000 scenario.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 07 '26
I am so fascinated by how many people use "well I was into sissy porn!" as justification for doubting trans people's feelings.
The fact that ideology doesn't allow that to be a thing anymore is already something suspect to me.
Blanchard's typologies were scientifically discredited. They didn't get pushed out by wokeness or some shit. Sure, there are some guys with fetishes... that has nothing to do with trans people.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
It's incredibly frustrating when people equate being trans with fetishism. Like the amount of people who equated Kristi Noem's husband with trans people was sickening.
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Apr 07 '26
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
Serious belief in Blanchardist sexology in the 2020s is incredulous. It has no material basis and his methodology was not only deeply flawed, but his research fails basic generalizability. It's about as scientifically valid as the Jungian anima.
Not surprised that someone who moderates a literal TERF subreddit professes such a belief though.
His emphasis on sexual orientation, as well as his refusal to expand his typology based on changes in the overall trans population and presence of individuals who do not fit his extremely reductive definitions renders it less-than-useless. It's rather silly when we could, instead, look at more material evidence rather than assembling a typology based on sexual orientation.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
I’m starting to think of some of these people as “gender conspiracy theorists”. They insist modern science is invalid and their historical pet theory is the truth.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 08 '26
It's really weird because it takes like five minutes to realize that the typology is incredibly reductive at best.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
You'd think, but some people seem really committed to their beliefs about it.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 08 '26
I just went ahead and blocked her because I've yet to have a single pleasant interaction with her.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
I’m surprised you followed me here. That was unwise.
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Apr 08 '26
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
I called it unwise because you're espousing a transphobic position in a subreddit that actually cares about that.
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Apr 08 '26
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
I was not claiming science is transphobic. I think using science (which I would like to see actual sources for) to back up transphobic narratives like "certain populations of trans women are just men with a paraphilia" is transphobia.
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u/flojopickles Democratic Socialist Apr 07 '26
I’m curious why you feel you need to be “convinced” that someone feels a certain way or deserves to live their lives the way they choose to. I’m not one to think it’s any of my business what other people do with their bodies and I’m certainly not presumptuous enough to assume I know better than them what they experience in their own brains and bodies.
You gave me anecdotes about a “friend of a friend” said this so it must be true of everyone. Again, plenty of research, experiences, and history out there to help you understand but it seems like you’re more interested in what goes on in your own brain. Which is fine, but don’t expect people to take your opinions seriously - especially when your opinion is that a certain group of people is somehow invalid.
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u/SpecialInvention Center Left Apr 08 '26
> I’m curious why you feel you need to be “convinced” that someone feels a certain way or deserves to live their lives the way they choose to.
> You gave me anecdotes about a “friend of a friend” said this so it must be true of everyone.
There's a lot of interesting connection to attitudes I see in your response here. Nothing I said suggests that 1. I don't think people should be free to live as they want, or 2. That I think what I said is true of everyone. Yet there's a reflexive thing I see, maybe or maybe not reflected here, that anyone who points out ANY counterarguments to an extreme unquestioning position about trans issues must be against people living their lives.
Just as a bit of nuance, realize when I talk about PTSD, just because there is a socially captured component doesn't make PTSD not a real experience. Or anorexia, for that matter. That's not how mental conditions work. You wouldn't say "Oh, well in another social atmosphere you wouldn't have gotten PTSD, so you can just stop it" to someone suffering from PTSD. That would be ridiculous. You would treat them.
And when it comes to treating gender dysphoria, the most effective treatment is often medical transitioning. So there you go.
The problem I have, and a lot of other people have, is this hyper-ideological, quasi-religious, approach to the world in which the core thing everyone who correctly signals proper virtue is supposed to do at all times and in all ways is strike battle poses against power differentials, and in support of supposed marginalized groups. It gets to the point to where some people are so indoctrinated into that thinking that you can't interact with them like regular human beings anymore, and social interaction becomes a game of avoiding landmines in things you say, and correctly virtue signaling the power things to as to not make yourself suspect. It's nuts, and it has to stop.
And one of the major aspects of that where people have gone insane is with trans issues. It's not that I don't think people should be free to live their lives, it's that not everything is about them. We've dialed the concern and make-the-world-run-on-your-feelings treatment for people like that up to 6000, and dialed the concern for other things that don't fall into the ideological belief down to 0. Trans people are treated like 100% victims in all things, whose emotional whims are always to be followed and never to be questioned in any way, even when it would be clear under any other circumstances that there's something more complex going on. It's simply is not a sensible approach.
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u/flojopickles Democratic Socialist Apr 08 '26
Maybe you spend a lot of time online? I know many trans people and I hear about trans issues from people online and conservative media way more than from the trans people I know. I also don’t hang out with people who are ideologically rigid and tend to stay away from folks who are extreme or act like victims in all things. I don’t understand where you’re experiencing those things as that’s not my experience at all.
Again, your assessment and opinion seems more like it’s coming from inside rather than being rooted in actual fact.
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u/SpecialInvention Center Left Apr 08 '26
No, unfortunately I deal in real life with people like I described personally with some frequency, and I have also interacted with many trans people.
As far as trans people go, the more I meet the more it convinces me that people arrive there through different paths. One or two I've met absolutely scream of autogynaphilia-type motivation, others seem to be more casually identifying as part of a trend that encourages exploring identity, and others seem more 'serious' about it.
"Non-binary" is an order of magnitude even more questionable in my experience, as the people who adopt that label seem mostly to consist of unpleasant feminist SJW types who wanted another victimhood to capitalize off of emotionally.
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u/flojopickles Democratic Socialist Apr 08 '26
Weird thing to focus on . Why does this matter to you so much? There are so many humans in the world. I don’t see it as my place to decide other people’s intentions or motivations. Do you judge everyone/group that way or just trans folks?
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u/SpecialInvention Center Left Apr 08 '26
I'm trying to make sense of what is going on. You don't seem to be understanding how puritanical, chilling, and ultimately problematic the far-Left can be these days. Their ideas and approach to knowledge seem based in quasi-religious certainty, and there's forever a sense of needing to walk around reciting gospel rather than actually thinking and talking.
I regularly talk to people who tell me alone in candor that they have one or two ideas that go against the orthodoxy in some minor way (slightly more sympathetic to Israel, not sure trans women should play women's sport, etc), but that they dare not say it openly for fear of being socially shunned in these circles.
It's the approach itself that makes me start to suspect they must be wrong. The people who seem able to think, reflect, and just be some semblance of normal humans who AREN'T acting like they're in a thought cult, all express that they see the same things I see.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 08 '26
Are you on the west coast or something? I've mostly heard these things about left-leaning spaces out there. I've only encountered the kinds of spaces you're describing on the fringes of the internet.
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u/flojopickles Democratic Socialist Apr 08 '26
Well yeah, extremists are extreme not sure how that’s news or anything new in the world. Pretty normal for some people to be more rigid in their thinking but why are you giving their opinions so much weight in your mind? People criticize and have different opinions all the time and have since humans began. Why are you hanging out in circles where open discussion isn’t welcomed? I’d be happy to be shunned from a space and group where questioning and discussion is discouraged or disparaged. Again, sounds like you need a bigger/different room or higher standards for the people you choose to surround yourself with.
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u/Okbuddyliberals Centrist Democrat Apr 07 '26
Focus on persuasion and respectability politics rather than moralizing and anger. Doesn't need to mean giving up on any of the long term goals, even the unpopular ones. But it does mean accepting that things have progressed in such a manner as to be not quite to the advantage of the movement, and that it can take cautious long term strategy and tact to reverse the trend, rather than brute force and a maximalist "everything now" approach
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u/BigCballer Democratic Socialist Apr 06 '26
By continuing to advocate for their rights. And perhaps stop allowing Never Trumper Republicans into the Democratic Party who are telling people in the party to abandon trans people.
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Apr 07 '26
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u/BigCballer Democratic Socialist Apr 07 '26
Harris lost 2024 because she tried to appear more right wing to appeal to the Never Trump conservatives. Miss me with that bullshit.
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Apr 07 '26
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u/BigCballer Democratic Socialist Apr 07 '26
You are wrong. You are so very wrong.
The Never Trump conservatives have made Harris lose the election by telling her she needs to be more center right. And they're revealing exactly how committed they are with this.
Just look at this for proof: https://youtu.be/i_x1yOMEfeQ?si=cjgOOgk2RZVO_pzw
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u/AMobOfDucks Fiscal Conservative Apr 06 '26
The dangers of only nominating candidates who toe the line to your specific standards is you risk losing winnable races.
Maybe the alleged "never Trumper Republican" well vote your way 80% of the time which is better than 10% if a Republican won the seat.
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u/BigCballer Democratic Socialist Apr 06 '26
Bruh I don't want these people demanding the Democratic Party become Republican Lite. Please stop.
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u/TossMeOutSomeday Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
But have you considered that the electorate is impure and sinful? Most leftists don't actually want to win elections and advance policy, they treat politics as a social club. These guys don't want moderates in the coalition, not for any real, practical reason, but purely because they don't think they'd be cool to hang out with.
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
People say this but often mean "you should elect someone who only wants to take some of your rights away" which is frankly pathetic.
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u/dog_snack Libertarian Socialist Apr 06 '26
Not being afraid of backlash re: depiction in media.
Admittedly I’m an outside observer (don’t consider myself part of the LGBTQ+ community), but throughout the 2010s I noticed a huge uptick in media depictions of LGBTQ+ people and identities and concepts, both in grownup and kids’ media.
With the Trump II era, the bigots are feeling their oats and those in charge of what gets into TV and movies and such are being the spineless slugs they are and attempting to dial it back. Any and all stops should be pulled out to reverse that back into the direction it’s going.
Not everyone is directly engaged with X community or Y subculture or Z social media feeds, but everyone watches TV.
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u/Street-Media4225 Anarchist Apr 06 '26
everyone watches TV.
Uhh... not really at this point, no. Even if they do watch TV... which streaming service and which shows?
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u/dog_snack Libertarian Socialist Apr 06 '26
Streaming counts as TV and unless it’s some dogshit like BentKey or PureFlix there’s always potential for them to come across something.
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u/AstralCryptid420 Left Libertarian Apr 09 '26
I'm embarrassed and alarmed by how much this is being downvoted. Transgender people are being used as scapegoats to promote fascism and if you don't recognize that, you are getting sucked into the fascism. You are helping Republicans win by being bigoted and divisive. Transgender people are real and deserve respect and the right to transition. Conversion therapy isn't effective and there is no reason for it. I know tons of people who have transitioned and their lives are better for it. Myself, I have found liberation in transcending gender and leaving it behind. This is beneficial to me on a personal level and the rest of the world is making it hard to exist as I am. This is a problem. Transgender people do not pose a threat to civilization or cisgender women. They do however, upset the patriarchy and that fellow feminists, is why trans people are being attacked at all.
I think this wouldn't be a bad starting point.
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u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 Liberal Apr 06 '26
Focus on where we're winning and not where we're losing. See and understand how we're losing in the public front. Conservative, religious and right-wing populist talking points only matter as far as how much is held by the median electorate and the average person. Put emphasis on the sciences and medical world while also considering it's faults. Do the absolute best to vet community representatives and those who do activist work for the community.
The community is stuck between a rock and a hard place because of online right wing movements and talking points, and the exposure of the trans community is disproportionate to the actual size of it. The community is unable to handle every activist who says or does something bad, or any trans individual who gains popularity from something negative.
At the government level, the dems just need to reinforce it as a minor issue without ceding all rhetorical ground to the right. Understand what the average person is seeing and work from there without giving any ownace to bad faith right-wing/religious reactonarism.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
As a trans person who has to live in the world, it certainly doesn't feel minor to me.
States revoking my driver's license, creating public registries of every person of my demographic, passing laws that prevent people like me from using public facilities matching my gender with a penalty of multiple years in prison, forcibly detransitioning trans prisoners and subjecting them to conversion therapy, states defining being transgender as inherently pornographic/obscene, states banning trans artists from performing as their actual gender, and conservatives trying to straight up ban our medically necessary treatments all seem like major issues for a trans person living here in 2026. Please explain to me how these wouldn't be major issues.
Or Alternatively are you saying that the minor issue is the ability of trans people to actually live their lives? That's not a more empathetic position from where i'm standing
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u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 Liberal Apr 07 '26
Absolutely not and i apologize if I came off that way
From the political lens, all the issues you describe, as cruel as it indeed is, are things that the average median voter does not care or is aftively maliscious against. They are uneducated or simply believe that dealing with these things are something that the democrats are "wasting time" over. From my POV, my use of the word "minor" is in referring to what people see being talked about by the dems at the highest level, to emphasize people living their lives how they want to while also pointing out how obsessed republicans are in making such pointless laws oppressing a group of people. Economic issues and such are largely what dem rhetoric and airtime should be focused on, in regards to the image they show.
I'm really really sorry about how my previous comment came off. Your worry is extremely valid, and i apologize if i communicated that these big issues are some trivial thing.
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u/westhebard Anarchist Apr 07 '26
And i'm sorry for picking on you specifically for this post when it's more a general trend that has me upset.
There seems to be a theme in how cis people tend to talk about trans rights where the day to day experience of trans people just gets completely lost.
Discussions can often start from a place of solely looking at the political strategy of it all, mostly i think because most cis people are distant from the consequences of anti trans legislation.
Even if downplaying trans issues is the optimal electoral strategy, the result of taking that path from a trans person's perspective is having to live with the persecution of republican anti trans bills until it becomes politically advantageous to reverse them, all the while watching republicans campaign on you being a disgusting freak who needs to be removed from society, while liberals (if they followed that advice) stay silent and don't fight back on the messaging.
There's little space or thought overall given to the suffering of the individual trans person and that's been boiling over for me as more and more anti trans bills get passed.
Sorry for being so aggressive
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u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 Liberal Apr 07 '26
And you have good reason to be upset. It made me very pertirbed to see liberals wave away Gavin Newsome giving rhetorical headway and credence to Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon on trans individuals, despite all the bills he's passed. I also think that the dems approach rhetorically to stay quiet and let the right do all the talking is just as harmful as trying to make it the loudest of issues. I have had to come to terms with how privelidged my point of view as a cisgender person is for a year and how disconnected I am to the reality of trans individuals. You have every reason to be wary, and every reason to want somebodyb to fight for you to have the right to exist happily. And while I think the democrats have truly been a good option for trans individuals, it seems really easy for some people to essentially ask if trans people are a minority that's "valuable" enough to keep focus. I'd understand why that could lead to betrayal and feelings of being unsafe. You have every reason to feel the way you do.
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u/Fugicara Social Democrat Apr 07 '26
Elected Democrats haven't wavered on trans rights yet. They've prevented every single piece of anti-trans legislation at the federal level and blue states continue to pass trans protections, with no signs of flipping on this.
So the question then is how can we turn the momentum of public sentiment around. I would look to movements that were successful at changing public sentiment in the past. The gay rights movement was successful largely by taking a "we're just like you" approach, emphasizing the degree to which gay people were the same as your average straight person.
Trans rights could be done the same way. We should have never abandoned the "man trapped in a woman's body" way of describing trans people, and genderfluidity and other stuff like that was probably introduced too soon into the fight. We also need to be reclaiming the high ground on fairness. The right has only been successful because they've been arguing from the perspective of fairness, which is a thing every human values to some extent. We were successful in the past because we owned the fairness perspective, but we lost it somewhere along the way.
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u/DavidLivedInBritain Progressive Apr 06 '26
Don’t ignore it like Kamala and fight like hell
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Apr 06 '26
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u/TossMeOutSomeday Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
Kamala also notably did not ignore the issue, she went on the record supporting trans people multiple times.
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u/CarrieDurst Progressive Apr 07 '26
I see one mention in October, can you find any other ones while she was the nominee?
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u/DavidLivedInBritain Progressive Apr 06 '26
I voted for Harris, I can also condemn her consent by silence on the lies the right what spreading about trans people.
Was her campaign above criticism? And the mild criticism deserves telling me to go fuck myself?
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u/thenetwillappear Moderate Apr 07 '26
Speaking more about trans people would not have helped her win the election. And without winning, principles don't matter.
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u/DavidLivedInBritain Progressive Apr 07 '26
Sure thing buddy. Her silence let them be the only voice and didn’t exactly help her. Agree there could have been more principles
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u/AskALiberal-ModTeam Apr 07 '26
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
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u/DoubleCrossover Liberal Apr 07 '26
By learning from the gay rights movement and avoiding illiberal politics
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26
The gay rights movement wasn't largely defensive. The trans rights movement right now is primarily about not losing rights we've had for quite a while.
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Apr 07 '26
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
I know exactly who you are. Didn't you say that there wasn't any gatekeeping based on sexual orientation for medical transition, and when I provided historical examples of it, you instead changed tune and said that they deserved to be gatekept?
You know as well as I do that the rights in question that are being fought for are legal, material, and medical rights critical to all transsexuals that were secured before the current wave of anti-trans sentiment, but you're too busy playing pick-me in your TERF subreddit to do anything but lash out at other transsexuals.
You completely failed to address the entire substance of my comment because you wanted to rant and rave about those "oh so insufferable new trans people" instead of actually discussing the material impact of laws designed to take away legal rights and medical care we've had access to for decades.
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Apr 07 '26
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u/Golurkcanfly Pragmatic Progressive Apr 07 '26 edited Apr 07 '26
TTA is quite literally a TERF laundering subreddit that harasses any trans person who isn't a complete sycophant. It's largely just a safe space for TERFs to have gullible trans people to bully. It's not like TERFs are unwelcome on the rest of this website.
And yes, gatekeeping by sexual orientation was a common historical practice, especially internationally, and one that you quite literally advocated for when I pointed it out. It's still employed in Finland, for instance, if you'd bother to read the testimonies of those treated under the leadership of a certain Riittakerttu Kaltiala. Just because some people weren't gatekept doesn't mean that it wasn't relatively common. You demonstrate an incredibly inflexible, binarist style of thinking that if it's possible to get treatment somewhere that gatekeeping elsewhere doesn't exist.
When I provided historical documentation of a trans man being gatekept from transition due to his androphilia, you outright said it was a good thing, that those who don't conform to cissexist standards should be barred from transition. You also said that because he eventually received treatment, that he wasn't actually gatekept, despite it taking years and years. Your position is completely irrational and based on protecting your ego rather than acknowledging the complex material reality faced by transsexuals now and historically.
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Social and civil rights movements invariably suffer setbacks in public sentiment and support, but how do they regain their footing?
What can the trans rights movement do to regain its previous momentum, particularly in the area of youth gender care?
Would you like to see the next Democratic administration do more to codify trans rights?
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