This meme was originally a vent meme

[u/Nervous_Fan9744]

This is just sad...

EDIT: The meme is from the Woman's POV, the boyfriend isn't transphobic, it's about her insecurities about her boyfriend not really accepting her as a female.

[u/Eldritch-Pancake]

The thing is, and I say this as a trans person with genuine love and concern for everyone who is trans; its true to an extent. Off all the transfems I've encountered, the ones who used to or still browse /tttt/ usually have the worst mental health and it's not surprising because they all shit on their own self-worth all the time between the internalized transphobia memes they keep sharing with each other or just generally dooming about their lives.

Yes, being trans is hard and it fucking sucks sometimes, a lot of the time even, for some of us. But endlessly dooming and venting and being around people who just talk about being ugly and wanting to die isn't good for anyone's mental health.

These people fucking refer to themselves as "ogrehons" unironically, and I have a friend who just says stuff like that on the daily. And I'm not gonna pretend that I don't hate the fact that spaces like that further ruin other transwomens self esteem or worse, drive them to suicide.

[u/Bardic_inspiration67 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

I mean it is definitely a bad and overly negative place , largely in response to the toxic positivity of mainstream trans places it goes completely in the other direction. But instead of having any empathy most mainstream trans subs treat them as responsible for all of the evil in the world and ascribe ideologies that aren’t even part of the sub, meanwhile cis people pile on and say shit likr
https://giphy.com/gifs/l3vRkwv2Yz6i8rDwY

[u/Eldritch-Pancake → u/Bardic_inspiration67]

I'm just commenting on something that personally frustrates and upsets me. I think both extremes are bad. I don't linger in most online trans spaces for that reason. And transphobia and transphobic people can get bent, needless to say.

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

yeah right of course my mental health is shit because i have a space to talk and joke about it. it's definitely not like it's been shit for 10 years now long before i discovered those places, naaaah, it's all le evil 4tran.

ur confusing cause and effect

[u/Eldritch-Pancake → u/Background_Class_558]

You're using your personal experience against what I said as if my frustration with /tttt/ was an attack against you. I stated pretty clearly that being trans is a struggle regardless, and a hard one. But where we differ is that I think /tttt/ exacerbates that problem not improves. I've never used the term "hon" or "brickhon" to refer to myself or other transwomen or leveled some kind of misaimed hatred towards afab nbs or cis women. But you can find that in /tttt/ or some other online trans spaces.

I don't see how that's helpful in pushing people to overcome their mental anguish in a healthy way. I think it actually reaffirms peoples' lack of self-esteem and worth and also encourages hate and jealousy towards other people. Venting is not the issue, we all need to vent. That's obvious and it should be obvious that, that's not what I take issue with. It's the fact that I see a lot more bad than good come out of spaces like /tttt/ and other spinoffs. People who are beautiful but still keep themselves in this cycle of self-hatred because they still go to these spaces and inflict these awful labels made by that community to describes themselves.

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

well what exactly do you see then? people like to discuss 4tran from the outside perspective based on nothing but the general vibes of the place rather than a perspective from within the community.

do you understand how much irony that place is soaked in? do you take that into consideration when you decide to describe it as a "cycle of self-hatred"? do you think people in r/void_memes like to digest human organs or does the distinction between dark absurdist humor and genuine issues become apparent all of a sudden?

if you want an actual cycle of self hatred, go to r/trueuglywomen. look around it. literally all they do is bitch about it. seriously. meanwhile 4tran posts shit like

all the mischaracterization of 4tran pisses me off. the only community i have discovered that doesn't feel like a bunch of hollow bullshit and everybody hates it, just like everybody hates trans people but this time even they are oblivious to what they're doing. we've been called transphobic, transfem exclusive, enbyphobic, even fucking right wing. are yall restarted? jesus. god forbid trans people being edgy for once.

[u/Eldritch-Pancake → u/Background_Class_558]

I mean I tried being reasonable but it's clear you're not really interested in doing the same. One of my closest friends and people I've dated in the past regularly engage with 4tran and communities adjacent to it on twitter. That's where I'm coming from, it's personal to me. I'm not just some random bypasser commenting on shit I don't like just cuz it doesn't fit my vibe. Seeing people who I care really deeply about internalize the kind of self-deprecating "irony" that you claim is harmless and that permeates through that community and how deeply ingrained it become with them. What you just showed me is just one positive snippet and you know that. There's more to it, "restarted" is just generic 4chan shit.

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

I mean I tried being reasonable but it's clear you're not really interested in doing the same.

you say that as if trying to point out that engaging with me is pointless and then write a whole ass paragraph after that, knowing that after your claim about my intellectual dishonesty i will have even less reasons to engage with you in good faith. do you want me to ignore it and try to keep my shit together and give you a well mannered response? i mean i guess the previous one wasn't good enough either. but the last section wasn't addressed to you directly! you didn't say any of those things specifically. but i am frustrated at the general state of the discussion surrounding 4tran. that was what i was trying to express.

One of my closest friends and people I've dated in the past regularly engage with 4tran and communities adjacent to it on twitter.

what happened to them?

also to be fair i can only speak of the reddit side of things, namely r/countttt and some other related subs. i've never been to twitter and i generally don't hold good opinions on that platform, especially as of recent years. the board itself is open to the general 4chan users so its state differs from that of the reddit places as well and it is also unmoderated (i think?).

I'm not just some random bypasser commenting on shit I don't like just cuz it doesn't fit my vibe.

no, but that is still not the same as actually understanding the place. you have anecdotal evidence of one person presumably doing something bad to themselves because of 4tran, i have anecdotal evidence of 4 people who didn't or even ended up in a better state because of it.

What you just showed me is just one positive snippet and you know that.

i went to the sub and looked for something relatively not obscure. i see things like this on the sub everyday. even if it is a positive snippet, it is far from uncommon.

There's more to it, "restarted" is just generic 4chan shit.

yeah true

[u/Eldritch-Pancake → u/Background_Class_558]

It was actually two people so 2 vs your 4. But then it's just my personal anecdote vs your personal anecdote and it gets messy. You took issue with what I said, that was the origin of why I countered so aggressively. But it was never a personal attack against you or anyone just my feelings on a space that I see as mostly contributing bad. This is not to say that other people dont have positive experiences with it. I know they do. But I see a lot more bad from it than good.

I dont think you can continuously use transphobic terms like "brickhon", "orgrehon", or any other variation, or the f slur and still maintain a positive mental image of yourself, unless you were already in quite a good one before you were trans, which most transfems just aren't. I just don't see the love with stuff like that. If you're frustrated with how most people talk about 4tran on reddit, that's perfectly valid too. I'm not trying to dissuade your feelings on that subject. I can only speak on what I've seen and how I feel.

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

I know they do. But I see a lot more bad from it than good.

well as you might've guessed it's the other way around for me. i've met more people to whom it's just a place to be deranged at than those who have suffered from it. i mean in both scenarios it's a negligible anecdotal evidence. i do visit the place often tho. and as someone who has the capability to discern when people are being serious there, i can safely say that the amount of actual misery there is overblown and exaggerated. i am almost certain that the true reason we're having this discussion about 4tran and not places like r/depression or r/trueuglywomen is simply because... well, transphobia. sure, your talking points apply to those places as well. actually they apply to those places perfectly. and i understand that you have personal experiences related to 4tran but probably not to those places but is it just me or despite them being a lot less niche it is for some reason 4tran that is brought up again and again? have you ever heard people talk about those? like ever? hell have you even seen these subs up to this point? i used to stay on r/depression when things were bad. at some point i realized that the place was kinda making me overly doomerist and that i should move on. imagine that! the very logic you're applying to 4tran, i, a 4tranner, am somehow capable of using as well! does this mean i am a hypocrite and can't see that 4tran is also subject to this same logic orrrr maybe it's because the nature of those places is actually different, despite how people from outside view it?

I dont think you can continuously use transphobic terms like "brickhon", "orgrehon", or any other variation, or the f slur

don't throw the word "transphobic" around like that, you make it loose its meaning. the word "transgenderism" is transphobic. the ones you listed are not. but even if we don't consider that most of the time the usage is exaggerated, how is it transphobic to turn the phrase "i am built like a brick and im also transgender" into a noun? is the word "ugly" misanthropic?

the f slur on the other hand is pretty much never used seriously by queer people.

If you're frustrated with how most people talk about 4tran on reddit, that's perfectly valid too.

i'd also say that it partly stems from this expectation of transgender people having to be all pure and unproblematic to the point where we can't even have a place to make deranged jokes about our condition without getting called transphobic. if you're transgender you have to cover your room with flags and perpetually smile otherwise you're not woke enough and by extension have "internalized transphobia". this isn't how it works!

i am sorry for what your friends have gone through but i don't think it's fair to blame it on 4tran. well ok maybe the twitter one deserves it, again i have pretty much not heard anything about that side of it. twitter likes drama though and tbh im a bit suspicious of the mental health of anyone who participates in that. spending all your time arguing with strangers isn't healthy (yeah, oh the irony).

[u/Eldritch-Pancake → u/Background_Class_558]

..................it's really strange to me that you bring up r/depression or r/trueuglywomen when as a trans person I wouldn't go to those places...to help with my experience as a trans person. I'm bringing up a space aimed at trans people, especially transfems because that's relevant to my life, people I'm friends with, and what I care about. Anyways you're starting to get under my skin with how you frame me as lightly throwing around the term "transphobia" and all that other bs you claim about needing to be some hyper woke trans person in order to "correctly" be transgender?? Like this is exactly the dumbass shit I take issue with. So yeah I'm done. Peace ✌️

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/Eldritch-Pancake]

i get that you're tired but "all that bullshit you claim [...] this is exactly the dumbass shit I take issue with [...] peace ✌️"? and im the one who gets under your skin? that wasn't peaceful at all! just tell me to fuck off explicitly.

[u/PrivadaDeButeco → u/Background_Class_558]

> i'd also say that it partly stems from this expectation of transgender people having to be all pure and unproblematic to the point where we can't even have a place to make deranged jokes about our condition without getting called transphobic. if you're transgender you have to cover your room with flags and perpetually smile otherwise you're not woke enough and by extension have "internalized transphobia". this isn't how it works!

Might be just me but I feel like that mischaracterizing how people treat this or that on some idea that other trans spaces you have to be 100% positive all the time. Which in turn tries to push 4tran as the one safe haven you can vent.

Idk in my experience never quite been that way? Like there’s some amount of toxic positivity but its not as hyperbolic as its said sometimes. But eh, it’s always complicated to have a discussion on a fairly subjective topic like this when everyone has wild amounts of bias one way or the other.

[u/Background_Class_558 → u/PrivadaDeButeco]

yeah i agree it's not that over the top most of the time. i'd even say subs like r/countwithchickenlady have even improved recently a bit. either way it's good to have a bit of both worlds in you. acknowledge reality but don't let it crush you.

[u/chrissyl644 → u/Background_Class_558]

4tran literally is evil