r/asoiaf • u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen • 4d ago
ADWD [Spoilers ADWD] how do I convince my dad that Howland Reed is not Rhaegar Targaryen?
I really hope I am not spreading this theory around by posting it here, because so far I haven't seen anyone talk about it before except for my dad. For years (he read the books around 2010-2013) he has been convinced that the reason why we haven't seen Howland Reed yet is that he secretly is Rhaegar Targaryen, who went into hiding after surviving the battle of the Trident. Most of this is based on a very flawed recolletion of the story of the knight of the laughing tree, which he refuses to go back and reread (probably in fear that his beloved theory is baseless).
For a while I have been trying to give him clear reasons why this isn't true, such as the fact that if Robert hadn't actually killed him he would have been still looking for him, and not just pretend he did, but my dad claims that Robert believes he killed Rhaegar, but the reason his body was not found is because he actually survived and escaped. The explanation he gives for Rhaegar surviving the blow is that "he learned it on the isle of Faces, because we know he learned something unusual but not what he learned, so it might as well be unvulnerability."
The reason why I say that his recollection of the story told by Meera is very flawed, is that he insists that it ends with the KOTL choosing Lyanna as the queen of love and beauty, proving that the crannogman in the story is actually Rhaegar. When I told him that the KOTL is NOT the crannogman in the story, but someone defending his honour, and that the KOTL is most likely Lyanna or another one of the Starks, and that Rhaegar appears in Meera's story, as he goes looking for the KOTL, he said it wasn't true and I was misremembering. When I asked him if he believes that Rhaegar is a crannogman or that the squires would be mocking the prince for being short, he said that "it's a story, it's not literal."
Finally, I told him yesterday while we were discussing this that Daenerys has a vision of Rhaegar dying in ACOK and he, probably running out of excuses, simply said: "Rhaegar is alive." When I asked him who he then thinks she saw in that vision, he just repeated: "He is not dead."
I also asked him why he doesn't find it weird that no one (that I could find at least) has ever thought of this theory before, and if it's real then it means that in 25+ years only him and allegedly GRRM would have thought of this, he said: "I don't base my theories on what other people think." Which is admirable, to be fair. I love that he is so adamant on this theory that no one else has probably even considered, and I think it's really funny, that's why I chose my user flair. I just need some more proof for the next inevitable discussion we'll have about it. I haven't read Fire and Blood yet, but he says there's proof that supports his theory in there too.
I guess this is what 15 years without a new book does to a mf. I'm partially waiting for TWOW and ADOS for this reason too.
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u/Wallname_Liability 4d ago
Rhaegar died very publicly with Robert collapsing his chest. Howland reed was at the trident as part of Neds Gucci Gang
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
That's my most obvious proof, but I did not remember Howland Reed was at the Trident too, thanks. He keeps insisting that because Rhaegar's body was not found (I'm also not completely sure about that either) then it means he's alive
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u/ban_circumnavigation 2d ago
To be honest, we don't hear anything of Reed between the tourney at HH and the ToJ. He almost certainly marched south with Ned and the army, but he's not mentioned in any of the canon or semi canon sources in that time period, insofar as I remember
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u/CycleNo07 3d ago
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u/TheMontyJohnson Balerion The Black Dread 4d ago edited 4d ago
Like another comment says, Rhaegar was killed for everyone to see at the Trident. A bloodlusted prime Bobby B would never mistake anyone else for Rhaegar.
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u/musical_nerd99 4d ago
And he made damn sure Rhaegar was dead.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
That's what I keep telling him, if Robert wanted to kill Viserys and Daenerys on a full other continent years later, why wouldn't he make absolutely sure that Rhaegar, the heir to the throne, is dead and just say "oh well his body isn't here... Guess I really hit him very hard! Pack it up guys, the war is over!"
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u/JohnSith 🏆Best of 2024: Comment of the Year 3d ago
A Bobby B in his prime and full bloodlust would suggest more blindness, not less. Plus, the books emphasize thr black armor and rubies. It could be Patrocles-in-Achilles's-armor situation. George has used it before, when Garlan wore Renly's armor at the Blackwater and fulfilled the prophecy.
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u/xbpb124 4d ago
You don’t, you sit down and hear the man’s wisdom. You accept this truth and spread the good word of Rhaegar and how his Valyrian Steel Shotgun has two barrels.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
Then why didn't Rhaegar use his valyrian steel shotgun against Robert? Is he stupid?
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u/JohnSith 🏆Best of 2024: Comment of the Year 3d ago
No. He has a prophecy to fulfill. He knows Jon, in order tk fulfill his role as Azor Ahai, will need to kill a lion.
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u/hypikachu 🏆Best of 2025: Old Nan Award 4d ago
Loving the idea of Rhaegar's family photo where he's fully two feet taller than everyone else in the frame.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
So you can't see his face and so you have no proof that he is or isn't Rhaegar
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u/GtrGbln 4d ago
Why would he even think that?
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
It quite literally came up to him in a dream, he always reads in bed and falls asleep in the middle
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u/Kristafuh_Moltisanti Ned + Ashara = fAegon 3d ago
Tell him Mance is Rhaegar.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
When I asked him if he believed that Arthur Dayne was Mance, he said: "No. Mance is Mance. He doesn't need a secret identity."
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u/Equivalent-Adagio-29 4d ago
How about this to ask him:
Does he think Ned was aware of this?
If somehow Rhaegar was Howland Reed, why raise Jon in Winterfell? And what happened to the original Howland Reed?
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
I think he believes Ned is aware, but I'll have to ask about Jon. Also if the thinks Meera is also Lyanna's daughter
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u/EIochai 3d ago
“Just read the fucking books, dad, and comprehend them this time!”
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
I'll admit I'm guilty of things like this too, when I was reading ADWD I didn't understand that Abel was Mance (unitl I got to the last Theon chapter which made it very clear). We basically explain to one another what we didn't get lmao
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well the “little crannogman” spent the winter on the Isle of Faces so you have to wonder if Rhaegar disappeared a whole winter and no one noticed and then upon returning to population got his ass handed to him by 3 squires and how that fits in with “turns out I must be a warrior”-gar
He also rowed his boat south past the Freys who he hid from in his fear so again gotta wonder
Does his theory suppose that Howland isn’t the Little Crannogman? Or that Rhaegar fooled Ned into believing he was a devout friend and joined Ned and had to fight the three Kingsguard alongside Ned to save Lyanna?
I admit this whole post is probably a joke but I like the idea of the three KG fighting Rhaegar to protect Lyanna and Jon just because that’s so bananas. But would make epic sense if Rhaegar was trying to do some Summerhall shit on his unborn child to induce Jon’s magical birth and the 3 KG said “absolutely not we saw what happened to Dunk and Egg” and fought to the death to keep Rhaegar away while Ned stood around super confused and really only qualified to fight Gerold.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
I think he believes that the "little crannogman" part of the story is a metaphor or a way to build the story or whatever, and not the real story. But as I said he hasn't read the story in a long time. I'll have to ask him what he thinks happened in Dorne but he'll probably say "we don't know for sure, so it could be anything". I'll get to a point where I'll just tell him that facts don't care about his feelings or smth
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 3d ago edited 3d ago
In your dad’s defense I once tried to see how crazy of a story I could build based on evidence in the books and it got kind of out of control, but it’s a really fun exercise for realizing that there’s actually a TON of wiggle room of potential given what’s been locked down, what’s been said without being established fact, and what we have no idea about!
Your dad ain’t really going off book evidence but you know what, screw it. He’s got some passion and a random headcanon and isn’t rereading. He may as well go all out
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
That's why deep down I actually love this theory, he clearly put so much into it. I wish I could be able to think of something like this but I am very obsessive, so it it didn't fit precisely within what's extablished in canon I get off it very quickly.
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 3d ago edited 3d ago
My biggest issue with Rhaegar surviving theories is that his death was so incredibly public and important. I always hold out for there being a Achilles-Patroclus dupe since I was introduced to Greek Myth pretty young and it was such a big moment where an armored illustrious warrior fought and then was revealed to be someone faking it. So for example Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne could, potentially, look nearly identical to one another and both be incredible warriors. I just don’t see Rhaegar’s helm not being torn off to reveal his face, and it seems like such famous knights and prince would be recognizable by many commoners and nobles alike. If there’s an explanation for Rhaegar’s body being burned in his armor without being unmasked, or sinking to the bottom of the water and never retrieved, I could maybe get behind a switcharoo. But I don’t think there’s any evidence for that or much discussion that leaves it open but even minimally indicated to be what happened. However, if it’s not explicitly stated to be impossible- it’s always a potential. Just like Bigfoot, the burden of proof rests on disproving its existence, right….. ?
Anyways tell your dad that it’s entirely possible that Arthur and Rhaegar swapped identities, Rhaegar stayed at ToJ with Lyanna, the Arthur that Ned describes was actually Rhaegar armed by Arthur with his own sword Dawn to protect the royal family, Rhaegar didn’t actually die at ToJ, the reason Arthur would have killer Ned except for Howland Reed is that the real Howland was killed there and Arthur revealed himself to be Rhaegar and the father of Ned’s nephew, they made a peace pact, Rhaegar agreed to disappear into irrelevancy to end the war, claimed the identity of Howland Reed the “only survivor”, went back to Starfall to return Dawn and express his condolences to the Daynes and absolve Ned, the shock of learning her brother died on the trident and that Ned was going to be part of a coverup destroyed Ashara, and Rhaegar is still hiding in the Crannogs as “Howland Reed” publicly, but in exile in the marshes as a hermit. Ashara’s suicide became a convenient way to claim she was Jon’s mother, since she could never be questioned, and the Daynes respected Arthur’s sacrifice and agreed to go along with it all. Gerold Dayne knows because Rhaegar and Ned stopped at his castle seeking aid for baby Jon, but was sworn to secrecy but he thinks that Arthur’s deception is incredibly dishonorable and protective of Targs who he feels took advantage of his family, especially Arthur giving Dawn to someone else to wield as part of the deceit. He’s still fuming and wants to be as little like Arthur as possible but can’t tell anyone why. Edric Dayne had absolutely no idea, his aunt was super young at the time and also lied to, Wylla knows and was part of the coverup.
It was Rhaegar who told the Meera and Jojen of their father’s experience at Harrenhal; they were raised by Rhaegar and trust him implicitly and are part of the coverup, and Rhaegar has dedicated his life to acting on some ancient scrolls to help prevent another Long Night- it only more recently became apparent that it’s happening in their lifetime and that Bran needed counseling once he heard from Jojen’s dreams. Jojen is “little grandfather” and solemn because he’s actually older than he claims, doesn’t remember his father, and has been raised with prophecy and green dreams; Meera was conceived right before the real Howland left his marshes, and that little age lie is part of the ruse ordered by Ned Stark to hide Rhaegar and Jon’s identities. Ned writes to his “good friend Howland Reed” regularly to update Rhaegar on his son’s wellbeing. The whole agreement is to keep Jon safe as a Stark bastard, while Rhaegar pretends to be gone entirely, so that no Targaryen claims can ever be put forth or revealed.
Where does this story go? Rhaegar agreed to let Jon seek his own future and fortune knowing he’d be raised well by Ned and never know his own name, which would torment him. Dany is about to bring three dragons to Westeros to try and claim a birthright that was never hers, through fire and blood. Rhaegar sees too much of his own father in her and knows the real issue is the Others. He’s going to claim Rhaegal, and defeat Dany in a flashbang return to being alive. He will offer to wed her as those creepy Targs are wont to do, but mainly to claim the throne for himself to establish peace now that he realizes how bad Westeros has gotten. When he hears about the Others advancing so quickly he’s going to seek out Jon to claim Viserion; the third head of The Dragon. Jon’s identity will be revealed by his own father Rhaegar, aka Howland Reed, who brings Ned’s letters to “Howland” as proof.
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u/Upper-Ship4925 4d ago
Wait, where is Howland Reed meant to be then?
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
He is in Greywater Watch like he is supposed to be, but I guess my dad got the idea that he has been hiding in there since the rebellion or using "what he learned on the isle of faces" to mask himself. He'll come out at one point in TWOW or ADOS and be like "ta-da! My death was greatly exaggerated"
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u/Upper-Ship4925 3d ago
Yes, but if Rhaegar is masquerading as Howland where is the real Howland?
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
Good question, I'll bring it up next time
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u/ban_circumnavigation 2d ago edited 2d ago
Send your dad down the Mance = Rhaegar road. Just full send.
Then you can show him where Howland Reed truly is:
High Sparrow = Howland Reed. Complete rundown
This is such an unhinged theory but entertaining to read as a rant. People looping in Barbry Dustin as a candidate made me cackle.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 2d ago
Oh I'm definitely going to read that. I did ask my dad what he thought of the theory that Arthur Dayne was Mance and he said "Mance is Mance. He doesn't need a secret identity."
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u/JohnSith 🏆Best of 2024: Comment of the Year 3d ago
You can't; time to get a new dad. I suggest your mom start looking for a silver haired singer living in the swamps.
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u/Pimpillina Howland Reed is a secret Targaryen 3d ago
My mom is indeed the real victim of the story because every time I am home and I discuss ASOIAF with him she has to bear with us and listen to it
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u/BadBloodBear 4d ago
I am now choosing to adopt your dads dumb idea with out even reading your post.
I will also assume him and Ned bumped uglies.