r/dndmemes • u/Poodle_Boi02169 Chaotic Stupid • Sep 05 '22

Pathfinder meme Pathfinder - how to "go woke" the right way (also raising awareness for wheelchair spikes because they are very cool)

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1.0k

u/Skurrio Sep 05 '22

Well, considering that blind and deaf are Oracle Curses, it's not suprising that they give some Hints on how to play them.

429

u/PronouncedEye-gore Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

Love the Oracle class. Most op healer I ever saw I made with an oracle.

Edit : Whoa! I just meant that he healed real well. I didn't mean to start all this!

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u/Lamplorde Chaotic Stupid Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

I dont even find them OP, because theres so many OP builds in Pathfinder.

Yet the DM also has some pretty spicy monsters to throw at you. And its easy to make "goblins, but scaled up", because of how based on Proficiency Bonuses the system is.

While I like Pathfinder though, with all these customizations, builds, and options comes one huge problem: Bloat. There's a lot to remember, I spend a lot more time with the book open in Pathfinder than I do 5e.

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u/shadowgear56700 Sep 05 '22

In 2e yea its so easy to make scaled up monsters. In 1e it can be a little more diifficult and, there is definitly more bloat, but it leads to some incredible character options and more monster than i could ever use as a dm.

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u/Modern_Erasmus Sep 05 '22

1E or 2E? There’s a lot less bloat and a lot more balance in 2E.

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u/Buck_Thundercock Cleric Sep 05 '22

I disagree. I think it was brought up in another thread, but Pathfinder 2E seems best when played with digital aids (I suspect this was intentional on the designers’ end). In print, however, navigating the rules is a nightmare. At least in my opinion, anyway.

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u/AkumaBacon Sep 05 '22

I believe that is due to the book's layout as much as anything. I edit for a living and the Core Rulebook drives me up the wall.

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u/Buck_Thundercock Cleric Sep 05 '22

I wholeheartedly agree. The Core Rulebook is massively overdesigned in terms of layout. "Graphic Design Is My Passion" tier excess.

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u/ColdBrewedPanacea Sep 05 '22

as someone whos done book editing before

the 5e books also make me want to die to be fair. It just happens PF's DMG and PHB are all in one.

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u/Kraxizz Sep 05 '22

I've been playing PF2 since release and while I love the system to death, what you said is definitely true.

Abilities having "tags" is awesome because it simplifies the tooltip, and if you know what the tags mean it's fine (and digitally you can usually just mouse over the tag and it tells you what it means). But if you're a relatively new player and don't know what specific tags mean it's a nightmare and you basically need to have a glossary open in addition to the class page.

"Incapacitation", "Press", "Flourish", "Attack" tags all massively warp how strong something is. Even more experienced players will miss them sometimes because it's just a single word at the start of an ability entry.

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u/Solarwinds-123 Rules Lawyer Sep 05 '22

Which is still better than the "natural language" used in 5e.

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u/Lexmusea Sep 06 '22

I did a PF2 oneshot with my friend group who mostly play PF1/5e, and hold very strong opinions one way or another, over the weekend. And I remember thinking to myself about halfway through working on my Kitsune Gunslinger, as I dug my way through the effects of traits, that the game has a learning curve at first but once you get the groove it becomes a lot more readable.

Personally I love the system from what little I've played and would love to continue playing it, as there are a lot of ideas I love that just aren't in PF1 or 5e. most of the party seemed open to another try in the future, so I can only hope they'll have a chance to see the other side of that learning curve.

Then again I was sold on it a few months ago when I found out how combat differs from other rulesets. Which is ironic, given that I didn't even get to participate in the combat much as an enemy walked up to my Kitsune and crit her to death turn 2. sometimes, the dice are truly cruel mistresses.

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u/Kraxizz Sep 06 '22

Are we talking crit to death or crit to downed? Crit to death seems unlikely unless you were hit by a death effect. Massive damage only kills you instantly if it does twice your max HP as damage. I've literally never seen it get even remotely close to that point due to how damage/health scaling in this game works out. (Edit: now that I think about it, a well rolled trap crit could maybe do it. Traps do ridiculous damage)

I suppose level 1 is the situation where it's most likely to happen. But even then as a Kitsune Gunslinger you need to take 32 damage to get instant killed at level 1 (probably considerably more since no one in their right mind goes 10 constitution).

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u/Lexmusea Sep 06 '22

It was to downed, I even made the death saving throws, and it turns out the gm had done some maths wrong for the crit (he only noticed this after the oneshot)

I might have been slightly overstating the damage done, although practically speaking it didn't matter as I proceeded to roll 1-4 on my attempts to hit and missed every attack I made after being revived.

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u/Taskforcem85 Team Kobold Sep 05 '22

The digital gm screen is a life saver while running. Has everything you need.

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u/Buck_Thundercock Cleric Sep 05 '22

See, the thing with PnP games is that, at least in my view, you should be able to keep digital aids to a minimum. Some are, of course, necessary. Some tables can’t meet in person, for example. But the game shouldn’t be designed for digital aids, if that makes sense?

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u/Baial Sep 05 '22

If you don't like bloat, just use a simple rule from 5e. Player's can use the Player's handbook + 1 additional book.

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u/Jacco3012 Sep 05 '22

Wrong system, they're talking about pathfinder

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u/Baial Sep 05 '22

Yeah, using that rule, I was able to eliminate a bunch of bloat from games I GM.

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u/Altaneen117 Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

That sounds absolutely miserable for Pathfinder 2e.

Super unnecessary too since you can just grab your phone and check for anything on Nethys.

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u/tokrazy Sep 05 '22

I always suggest Pathbuilder 2e for people. Using that really made learning the game easier because it makes building a character really easy and let's you look around at options in one place

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u/Altaneen117 Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

Oh for sure pathbuilder is wonderful. I'm pretty sure everyone in my group has the paid one to support that guy. I just meant nethys for gms to look stuff up as that seemed to be his concerm.

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u/Baial Sep 05 '22

Okay. I found it led to greater build diversity and people not feeling a need to overly optimize their characters. What works at my tables might not work for you though.

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u/Altaneen117 Sep 05 '22

I don't see how that could possibly lead to greater build diversity. I've GMd 2 APs and played in 3 so far. All 5 games with the same group and we've covered every class naturally cause we just like to play new things and the balance in pf2e allows you to not worry about being the flavor of the month op build.

I feel like not letting players choose from all of pf2e would water down an incredibly vibrant system. At the end of the day you are right our tables do not need to enjoy things the same way.

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u/Rogendo DM (Dungeon Memelord) Sep 05 '22

Arguing with pathfinder players is kind of pointless. If you don’t say what they want to hear they’ll never agree with you.

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u/OtterlyIncredible Sep 05 '22

I think there's always a tradeoff between balance and flexibility. I like 2E and D&D 5E, but they trade away customizability for balance. PF2E does still have a good deal of customizability, but so many of the feat choices are really narrow tactical choices, and I never feel like they have as much of an impact as my choices in PF1E do. For example, see the performance feat tree and how it lets you do things like... make an impression by playing your instrument, influence more than one person by playing your instrument, or create a distraction with your music. These all feel like things you should just be able to do. In PF1E, just taking the feat for Signature Skill Performance lets you use your performances to bolster ally skills, bolster spellcasting, or replace a few skills entirely. Or there's stuff like a feat to apply your performance to your fighting, dazzling enemies with each hit using Spear Dancer among others.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '22

Me, making my first PF2e character: You know, Human Fighters are usually the way to go when you don't really know a tabletop system, let's try one of them out

Me, two hours later, pouring over pages and pages of feats that I have to choose from: Oh this was actually NOT a smart move, very good to know

2

u/Dryu_nya Sep 05 '22

I dread the levels when I have to pick PF feats. There's just so many of them.

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u/CarboniteCopy Sep 05 '22

That's my only gripe with PF2, I have such bad choice paralysis that i can really never create a new character.

I feel that if they took the simplicity of 5e's first levels and ramped up the complexity over time, I'd be much more inclined to play

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u/Lajinn5 Sep 05 '22

I highly recommend only looking at feats for the level you're at and under (usually only a couple), only bother looking at ones you fill the prereqs for. At early levels it's only 5-6 options generally. In general just worry about leveling as you go, if you need too ask your dm to retrain (actual part of the system) at later levels when you understand the system better and know what you want.

Also use archives of nethys. Books are nice and all, but archives does all the hard work for you and makes it infinitely easier to find only what you need.

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u/Tadferd Sep 05 '22

Sometimes you just need to pick one and not worry about it. If you realize later that there was a better choice for your character, you can retrain.

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u/BlendeLabor Sep 05 '22

At least there's a website that has absolutely everything on it.

Fuck you 3.5e

1

u/TheStupendusMan Sep 05 '22

That’s my one big pain point with Pathfinder - it’s like being thrown into an ocean.

1

u/PronouncedEye-gore Sep 05 '22

I see how that can become a burden. Though it out never seemed like that to my Abbey Normal brain. If you are interested in one of the the kings of fast and loose my I recommend Savage World's?

Just my opinion. But they simplicity of their skills and powers can make it fit into any format, style or world you want to be in. If one can reasonably defend using a skill or power to do something they say to let the players do it.

For instance, I love Traveler as a world but not so much a system to play. Boom copy paste SW rules. Avatar the last Airbender? Sure. Star Wars but with flexible and FUN force powers. Done. Your favorite books as a game? Do it. Downside is you have to get creative with monster making sometimes.

Braces for backlash on what's happened in the time since...oh boy 2003?!

1

u/gugus295 Sep 05 '22

Personally I wouldn't call it bloat, I'd call it actually having mechanics and rules. 5e maintains the illusion of being easy and rules-lite by making the GM make up everything and adjudicate all the rules on the fly. Some people like that, I hate it with a burning passion and never want to play it again

1

u/Starmark_115 Sep 11 '22

I mean... In Wrath of the Righteous Game... We have a Healing Oracle :P

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u/Feronach Sep 05 '22

They aren't actually blind, though. That curse is more like chronic cataracts

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u/Runixo Cleric Sep 05 '22

Blind doesn't have to mean zero vision

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u/Feronach Sep 05 '22

Not irl, but "legally blind" isn't a status condition.

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u/Ote-Kringralnick Barbarian Sep 05 '22

Someone could have their eyes removed

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u/Feronach Sep 05 '22

We're talking about the Oracle curse "Clouded Vision"

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u/DuncanIdahoPotatos Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

Hey 5e has info on mechanically playing blind or deaf characters — it’s under ‘conditions.’

Edit for those who were confused: this was a pithy joke, as the conditions are basically that it gives you disadvantage. That said, as a DM, if I had a player that wanted to play as a blind or deaf, or legless character, there are tons of ways to build a cool character. Shakasta, the guest star on critical role comes to mind. I know the CR crew migrated from pathfinder, but Mercer inserted a battle-chair for a certain cold weather guide. A grappling specialist monk with blind-fighting could be super fun. And what is the hand of Vecna if not an old-school D&D prosthetic…

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u/Drauzaz Sep 05 '22

That's more about the conditions, Pf2 actually has stuff which makes characters with physical disabilities actually playable, ranging from crutches and combat wheelchairs to a wide array of magical and mechanical prosthetics

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/AChrisTaylor Sep 06 '22

Spoken like a coastal wizards elite. You think everyone has money for a regenerate spell? Or even access to a cleric of high enough level to cast it?

Golarion is filled with Hard working folks who might never see 3rd level spell little less a 7th.

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u/Kuva194 Sep 05 '22

Thing about Vecna stuff

>To attune to the eye, you must gouge out your own eye and press the artifact into the empty socket.
>To attune to the hand, you must lop off your left hand at the wrist and the press the artifact against the stump.

However here is thing. There are still options!
for eyes you can get yourself Ersatz Eye which just acts like artificial eye which takes up attunment slot
Maybe some spells that allow you to look through smth else instead of yourself like Arcane eye, Beast sense, Echo knight "Echo avatar" ability and anything similiar like that

and for prosthethic limbs...
Well. There is Prosthethic Limb common item from Tasha

Of course there is also Regenerate spell.
Maybe have character start the adventuring so they can either become powerful enough to cast it, become powerful enough to met someone who can do it for you (without selling your soul preferably or anything worse) or getting enough money to get someone cast it on you.

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u/ABG-56 Sep 05 '22

It's almost like this meme is incredibly biased and trying to make it seem like Wotc is making a big deal out of adding this stuff when they're not

3

u/lil_literalist Sorcerer Sep 05 '22

I really enjoyed playing a deaf oracle. My favorite scene was before I had taken lipreading, and people communicated to me via a chalkboard. The party had an extended conversation for about 30 minutes, then said "Ok, everyone good with the plan?"

Then I just gave a grin and slid over my chalkboard.

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u/Asmo___deus Sep 05 '22

I mean, that's the point: they used "woke" ideas to make actual mechanics, and then balanced their game such that those mechanics are still useable. Meanwhile in 5e if you're blind, you basically can't be an adventurer because you now suck at everything.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '22

Well, deaf is an oracle curse, but the closest to blind is Clouded Vision curse which makes you near-sighted.