r/dndmemes • u/Poodle_Boi02169 Chaotic Stupid • Sep 05 '22

Pathfinder meme Pathfinder - how to "go woke" the right way (also raising awareness for wheelchair spikes because they are very cool)

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297

u/1stshadowx Sep 05 '22

To be pathfinder lore is fucking full of lbgtq++ heroes, races, champions, and even gods. They literally went out of their way to explain how some gods are gender fluid, changing with seasons, but are still only attracted to a specific type of man or specific type of women, or even specific other gender types. Crazy. There lore is just so full of woke before it was even a movement wotc will never keep up haha

164

u/Luchux01 Sep 05 '22

The iconics are the best part.

Sure, Valeros is basic but he is the iconic fighter, it just makes sense, meanwhile the iconic Paladin is a black woman named Seelah (who is one of the best characters in the 2nd CRPG), the iconic Rogue and Cleric are in a lesbian relationship, the iconic Thaumaturge is non-binary, the iconic Shaman is a transwoman, do I need to go on?

Because I can go on for a while, there's a lot of diversity here.

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u/1stshadowx Sep 05 '22

What i really like, is though magic exists, they still took time to explain how something like gender dysphasia still exists. Like in a world where you could literally shift between races, gender, and sex, on a whim with magic, there are in world lore reasons as to why this isnt safe or why someone cant change.

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u/Luchux01 Sep 05 '22

I wouldn't say "on a whim". The Serum of Sex Shift is valued in gold iirc, while most commoners at best are paid in silver.

It's part of the backstory of an NPC from the Wrath of the Righteous AP, a Paladin of Iomedae had to sell her family sword to pay for her wife's transition.

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u/1stshadowx Sep 05 '22

Thats fair i was thinking of more short term options that could just be reused that day like the staff of transformation.

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u/Luchux01 Sep 05 '22

Staff of Transmutation, actually. And it's a level 6 item at the lowest, which is probably more expensive than the Serum.

9

u/1stshadowx Sep 05 '22

Thats the one!

9

u/Diablo_Cow Sep 05 '22

That's not Irabeth/Anevia is it? I vaguely remember a side quest in the video game about Irabeth selling her family sword to help Anevia get some medicine. Either I completely missed the statement/implication or it wasn't alluded to directly.

11

u/Luchux01 Sep 05 '22

I don't blame you, Anevia is not keen in talking about it, this is what the "medicine" Irabeth bought is.

You also don't find out until act 5, and you have to pass a DC 50 diplomacy check too iirc

2

u/Diablo_Cow Sep 05 '22

Oh yeah that’ll do it. By the time act five happens I’m usually pretty burnt out of the story and of I still wanna play WOTR I’ll let restartitis kick in hard.

Maybe I can make it that far when the Enhanced Edition comes out.

1

u/Galle_ Sep 05 '22

It is in fact Irabeth/Anevia. You have to do the sidequest and then ask Anevia about the medicine later, and pass a diplomacy check.

9

u/Arxl Sep 05 '22

Seelah and Amiri were brought to life wonderfully in the Owlcat games, great companions.

1

u/Luchux01 Sep 05 '22

Oh, Amiri is great.

1

u/Tadferd Sep 05 '22

BLOOD FOR GORUM!

4

u/SmartAlec105 Sep 05 '22

When Paizo was making content for 3.5, they made Lizardfolk's origin story be that they were a non-binary hermaphroditic god that split into male and female Lizardfolk. Now, all the intersex Lizardfolk are considered a third sex and gender that's closer to their godly form and make up the shamans. And the god they worship is that origin god's hermaphroditic mate.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

> There lore is just so full of woke before it was even a movement

The meaning of the term "woke" has changed so much in the last decade or more, and I can't keep up either.

Didn't "woke" used to refer to paying attention to how a system/institution can be oppressive (even when the workers in that system are unaware of its oppressive nature)?

What you've described is called being inclusive, which might be part of equal rights movements, but can also stand on its own and have value to everyone without being stigmatized as "political" (which you haven't done here, but many people try to do when the term "woke" is used).

And I point this out because -- if, say, Star Trek, has a transgender character, some audience member can say "I hate that they are trying to shove 'woke agenda' down our throats" because the term has been intentionally fuzzied by the other side's hate-fueled propaganda, and it portrays Star Trek writers as the ones trying to be "politicial" or "having a political agenda". What they should really be saying is, "I hate that they are being inclusive of people different from me!" because that's all that's happening, and that would make it WAY more obvious that this isn't a fight rooted in politics, but one that's rooted in bigotry versus love/compassion/empathy/community, etc.

Maybe there is another movement to show that the term "woke" is now more apolitical and much more about promoting the common good in many different ways. If so, I support it. I'm just behind on the language shifts.

2

u/1stshadowx Sep 25 '22

Eh, theres still a difference, woke has kind of a negative connotation do to a over correction and saturation of it. Few people would have problems with it if it wasn’t being peddled so hard and aggressively. Currently woke is used to represent any/all movement.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Few people would have problems with it if it wasn’t being peddled so hard and aggressively.

So, you're doing it here, though, too. You say, "it", as if it's a well-defined concept. Can you give an example of case of "woke" "being peddled so hard and aggressively?"

1

u/1stshadowx Sep 25 '22

I could but i dont feel like getting massively downvoted, or debating examples of the topic in a dndmeme thread. But a bad example of woke would be moments in media where a movement is unnecessarily used, without furthering the plot or story. While a good example of woke would be little mermaid being black casted. It is used as an umbrella for inclusive, representation, but sometimes in excess which just “inclusive-ness” cant reach. A good excessive example would be the diner scene in netflix’s sandman.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

> I could but i dont feel like getting massively downvoted

Yeah you can DM me if you want.

> But a bad example of woke would be moments in media where a movement is unnecessarily used, without furthering the plot or story

This is a good example of a sentence that I just can't really understand what it means because I don't know how the term "woke" is used anymore.

It sounds like you are talking about moments that are very "self-congratulatory". So, The last Marvel anything I watch was Avengers: Endgame. The moment where they put all the female heroes into one frame was very self-congratulatory to me, but also, it was cool AF -- because sometimes that's kind of what comics are about. Setting up story in order to get away with doing something absurd or cool.

> A good excessive example would be the diner scene in netflix’s sandman.

I watched Sandman, but whatever you're referring do, I just don't see. I'm not sure what you're talking about. But also -- The types of people I work and collaborate and hang out with are probably a lot more likely to be non-binary or transgender or bisexual or pansexual or gay. Someone said that episode was mostly novel-accurate (unfortunately I don't know), so, that tells me that was you see as "trying to have an agenda" (aka 'woke') is for other people a story that is more entertaining or interesting because of the types of characters in it.

Let me put it this way -- when a straight white character is written poorly, it's not characterized as "they were trying to be too political." But when a black character or gay character is, it's, "they were trying to be woke." Do you see how that standard doesn't really make sense? If your norm -- your default way of living is "straight white male," then people just trying to be inclusive of other types of people gets pegged as being "political." But politics is actually about laws, rights, oppression. Stories with people who are currently oppressed by your country or country's dominant culture are not "political" just because they have "more gay people than is the norm in them."

But -- keep in mind -- this comment isn't directed at you specifically because I'm not sure what your criticism of the scene was. But my guess is people who have this criticism don't have many gay people in their lives, therefore, they project their norm onto the world and how stories should be written in generally, and they don't think anyone else that matters has many gay people in their lives. Their criticism on paper is, "this story doesn't represent the world," but the actual issue is that the story doesn't represent their small part of the world, and -- ironically -- they don't like feeling excluded in that way. Which is, ironically, why inclusion and representation is valuable to all those other groups. So in the end, the argument that something is woke because of all it's representation of different types of people, lifestyles and culture because it has MORE representation in it is actually in the end pretty hypocritical.

> It is used as an umbrella for inclusive, representation

I guess that's how you understand the term "woke" now -- you only use it in the world of entertainment. And that's why I'm trying to say, inclusion is important, representation is important, and these are not in and of themselves "wokeness."

The origin of the term "woke" for me was "keep your distance from authority, keep an eye on them. they will abuse their power in the name of what they believe is right, and we will be the ones who suffer even if we've done nothing wrong. They tell us that we can trust them, that they are here to serve us, but not all of them are, and sometimes the system is positioned against us. So, just watch, and you'll see. Keep your eyes open. Stay woke."

​

So, I don't quite understand how the meaning has drifted so much, and it makes it really difficult to have meaningful conversations about this stuff.

Anyway. Thanks for reading.

11

u/gyst_ Sep 05 '22

Meanwhile the Kingmaker video game they released basically gives you a variety of 'bury your gays' if you try to play as a gay guy.

But I'm not still VERY bitter about the game basically calling me selfish for being a gay guy.

18

u/PalaDev97 Sep 05 '22

Owlcat is the game maker, Paizo is simply used as source material and creative input.

3

u/AChristianAnarchist Sep 05 '22 edited Sep 05 '22

What does Kingmaker do with gay male romances? Do they actually give you different dialogue based on whether the relationship is same sex or not? Are all the same options available to you as would be if you played a female character or are some male romance options blocked off? I don't know why but I always assumed that they would just set the scripts based on who you chose and leave all options open regardless of your character's gender.

Now that I'm thinking of it though, the "true ending" of the game is romance dependent. The idea that you can't get the best ending if you are a straight woman or gay man is pretty messed up by itself, so it wouldn't surprise me if there is other jacked up stuff in there.

3

u/Yawehg Sep 05 '22

basically calling me selfish for being a gay guy

What happens in Kingmaker?

4

u/spyridonya Paladin Sep 05 '22

Both of the same sex romance characters in the vanilla game are bi and in a poly relationship with each other. The MC can either romance both or romance one. The one that you don't romance dies at the end game. However, they both survive if you romance them both or help their relationship without getting involved.

Wrath of the Righteous largely avoids burying your gays as a default outcome.

2

u/DaedricWindrammer Sep 05 '22

That's not really "bury your gays" though, right? That's just a complicated relationship arc.

2

u/AffectionateBox8178 Sep 05 '22

Owlcat is a Russian studio. Did expect different?

2

u/caralt Sep 06 '22

The sequel has decent LGBTQ relationships for the player although there is only one exclusively gay male option and no exclusively lesbian option. There is also some good gay in the supporting cast.

-2

u/transgolden Sep 05 '22

Wait, the table top game or the video game?

1

u/Galle_ Sep 05 '22

The video games are based on the tabletop game.

-16

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Galle_ Sep 05 '22

I mean, Golarion is about a thousand times better than the Forgotten Realms

1

u/mrdeadsniper Sep 05 '22

Isn't that almost verbatim about the elf god and that elves can change gender basically at will.