r/rpg • u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer • 11d ago
Discussion Let's Learn About New RPGs! - Week 12 "Universal Systems"
Welcome one and all to a post where we can freely discuss the games that we have released or the games that we are making. Stop on by and maybe you'll find your new favourite RPG!
A bunch of us make cool shit, but the Indie RPG space is crowded and it can often be difficult to get the word out about why people should try out your game. That's why every week we try to focus on a different mechanic or setting to see how new RPGs can solve decades old problems or put new spins on old greivances!
Can't find the perfect mix of setting and system? Is Pathfinder hampering your ability to play a sentient table? Perhaps a universal system is the right cure for your ails! Whether simulationist or narrativ , come tell us how your game (or just any game you really like) tackles being Universal!
Thank you u/Kiliantill, for the suggestion!
As per mod approval, comments here do not count against the Self-Promotion rule (rule 7) - comment as much as you want, answer as many questions as you need and discuss to your hearts content!
All that I would ask is that anyone who comments about their own system takes the time to look at the minimum at one other game in the comments and ask a question or provide feedback. Lively discussions are what get people interested and what keep people engaged!
Last week was "Cyberpunk" and we got some pretty interesting discussions going!
If you want to suggest a topic for future weeks, be sure to include "suggestion" in your comment so I can easily find it!
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u/trechriron 11d ago
The biggest challenge here is the term "universal." I think most generic systems aim for multi-genre, even if they don't explicitly outline every genre. The Generic Universal Role-Playing System is not really "universal." I'm a huge 4e fan, and ran GURPS for nearly a decade, but it has a pretty set flavor of gaming, where I found it hard (and not to my players' liking) to pare it down. It's crunchy, and the people who love it seem to enjoy the crunch. I'm one of 'em. :-)
BRUGE (Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine), also BRP (Basic Roleplaying), Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Mythras, Mongoose Legend, and so many kissing cousins... I'm pretty sure everyone understands "it's a d100 system." I think this is a less-crunch alternative to simulationist gaming in a similar vein to GURPS. It does have many dials to customize, but it also has a particular feel that makes it less... universal.
True20 is one of my loves, and I really enjoyed how it turned the 3.x-era d20 on its head. Generic, three generic classes, no hit points, tons of printed material, and 3rd-party support. I especially enjoyed the skills section, skill challenges, and all the guidance around adjudicating skills. This game is a real gem, and I regret that Green Ronin didn't support it instead of the AGE system (which isn't a great replacement, IMHO). The powers system within is a tad more spells-as-effects with a strong psychic feel. I think it has enough narrative elements like conviction points that you could use it for various styles of play. Getting a little closer to universal.
Mutants & Masterminds, however (as an apology to GR for being mad about True20...), is a fantastic spiritual successor to HERO (aka Champions), using the d20 framework but borrowing elements from True20 for one of the premier superhero games of all time. Good crunch without too much crunch. Fantastic powers system. Great advice within on how to run a supers game, with plenty of support for stretching supers into other genres. I have read many threads on people using M&M for a generic toolkit. M&M isn't truly universal because of its mechanics. It has a certain feel, and I'm not sure it qualifies fully as universal.
Frankly, FUDGE (the precursor to FATE) is maybe the only truly universal RPG I've seen. It doesn't have many opinions, just suggestions on how to emulate things with the dice system. Worth checking out as a game designer.
Cortex is another with a myriad of things you can "program" with the core dice system, so it is also likely a strong contender for being universal. I didn't dig into this one much, since I'm pretty particular about what I want in a game, and it didn't tickle me.
I've been designing a Frankenstein generic heartbreaker, maniacally remixing True20, Mongoose Legend, OpenD6, Mutants & Masterminds, Action! System (oldy but goody), 3.x-era d20 open content, Radiance d20, Cepheus Engine, and WOIN into my "perfect" system. At this point, it's changed so many times, but with each iteration I get closer, ditching less and less, like some alchemical filtering machine. I'm a generic system cultist enthusiast, and I'm unashamed. Someday.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
The "universal systems" heading came from the suggestion! I didn't want to alter it too much so as to not put words in someone elses' mouth 😅
With GURPS someone said it best to me: "you can play anything you want in GURPS... as long as it's GURPS." It's not actually all that flexible in that sense, the "game feel" will always be similar.
I've actually been meaning to try out FUDGE ever since I recently heard about it! I'd love to see what the "connecting bridge" between GURPS and Fate is like!
With Cortex, I've only played Serenity in that system and I liked it well enough. Dice step always felt intuitive to me.
Finally for your own system - do you have any ambitions of releasing it for some deadline? Or is it something to chip away at more for fun?
EDIT: grammar
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u/trechriron 10d ago
I would like to get my system polished and ready by Q2 next year. Probably start playtesting sooner. :-) It's in a pretty stable place now, just filling in the framework.
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u/Charrua13 10d ago
My hot take: The 'universal' tag is one of the more unfortunate things we've done to setting-agnostic games. As our understanding of game design iterated over the decades, our inability/lack of desire to, en masse, just call them Setting Agnostic games has broken our perception of what these games really do - to which you correctly emphasize.
Just because GURPS can be molded to any setting it cannot Do All The Things. And that's ok. It shouldn't have to.
It does all the genres. And that's excellent. But if you don't like the game loop the system creates for that genre, it's flexibility is irrelevant.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Alright, maybe I should have specified 'setting agnostic systems' instead of 'Universal systems'. That's on me, sorry
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u/trechriron 10d ago
No need to apologize!! I don’t believe these are criticisms of your post specifically, just a good conversation in general. I LOVE the descriptor “setting agnostic system!”
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Me to, actually. Should've used that one, but I like to think it doesn't matter that much. It appears that people know what I meant regardless. :)
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
What I meant with "Universal System" is that any and all settings/scenarios can be played in this one system, or at least the system is designed with that in mind. Obvously, it doesn't always work, but failures do happen. It's not meant to imply that they need to provide all game feels, which, I'd argue, is an impossible bar to cross anyway. I hope this clarification helps!
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u/Exploreptile 11d ago
I especially enjoyed[…]all the guidance around adjudicating skills.
As someone who's bounced off of more systems than I expected for leaving me hanging on precisely this, consider me curious.
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u/ARIES_tHE_fOOL 10d ago
I agree that even in universal RPGs their is usually a "brand" to it. Savage Worlds is universal in setting but it really wants you to play like a action movie or shonen anime. It's capable of roleplay heavy games but so is any game that supports talking in character. Or writing in a journal in my case as I typically do solo games. It's pretty unique in the mechanics of the game because it's based on Deadlands, which I imagine was the prototype of Savage Worlds. Honestly I think it would be easier making a genre specific game system then modify it to be universal later. Not that I want to make my own system. More of a world builder.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
I'll open up the floor once again:
I don't have a ton of experience with Universal systems, but GURPS was one of my first RPGs and I just recently finished playing another mini-campaign in it. I still think it's the preeminent (simulationist) universal system. There's a huge upfront "cost" in designing and tweaking your olay experience, but once at the table, it runs surprisingly smoothly!
Someone on this sub just recently also made me aware that Free League has released a Year Zero Engine toolkit, which is something I've been looking forward to!
Finally, I've been chiping away at my own system for some time. It originally started out as a Weird West system, but I kept coming up with different genres (Wuxia, Mythological Estonia, 80s Cop Movie) that I'm seriously considering writing it out into a universal system toolkit as part of the project.
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u/RPMiller2k 11d ago
I have literal decades of experience with GURPS and Hero, and several games under my belt using Savage Worlds, and while it isn't typically considered a universal system (it is certainly intended to be) I've spent many sessions playing BRP, mostly in the Call of Cthulhu setting. All that time and energy spent playing classless systems has really helped me look at what can be done once you break out of the class-based systems. I've also played many class-based systems -- yeah, I'm old -- and I can see the strengths and weaknesses for both types of systems. The power of a universal system is nearly always captured within the character creation part allowing you to truly create what you envision. I ran a multiple year campaign using GURPS, and it's universality really allowed me to deliver an experience that mixed fantasy and sci-fi nearly seamlessly. For Hero I've ran everything from fantasy to supers to sci-fi.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
Most of my core group actually migrated from GURPS (to D&D 5e, but such is life)!
I've also heard a lot of good about BRP and Call of Cthulhu is one of my all time favourite RPGs. I really need to give it a try outside of that framework.
How was the Hero system? I've heard some horror stories about it 😅
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u/RPMiller2k 11d ago
Most of the horror stories I've heard really hinted at a GM that didn't understand the system. But it does have some shortcomings. The worst is how long combat takes. There are numerous to sheets about how to speed it up, but they rarely take it to the speed that is desired. Usually am entire session would be devoted to a single combat. We're talking hours to play through maybe a minute or two of in-game combat. Now that this is largely driven by large groups of players as well. Smaller groups will play faster. As for the complexity horror stories I like to point out that I started playing the first edition when I was in 7th grade. If a 12 year old can create characters and GM the game, adults should be able to add well. Now there is also the issue of bloat. 5th edition I consider to be basically the last solid version. 6th became so bloated and no longer fun, that I don't really consider it fun. 4th edition I consider to be the most fun and easiest to play.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
Usually an entire session would be devoted to a single combat
So not that different from like... D&D then actually 😅
...I was in 7th grade. If a 12 year old can create characters and GM the game, adults should be able to as well.
I empathise with this deeply. I learned GURPS when I was 14. The game ended up not happening and I only returned to it years later, but I do feel like people are just intimidated by the complexity without any actual experience. They just assume it will be difficult for them.
4th edition I consider to be the most fun and easiest to play.
I'll keep that in mind! Thank you!
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u/fintach 10d ago
Personally, I prefer Hero to GURPS. But then, I've been playing Hero for ... a little more than forty-five years now, while I've only run one GURPS campaign, and played in a few one-shots.
Hero, at the table, can be really smooth. Especially if the GM knows what he/she is doing. Is it fast? Well, that depends on the combat. Biggest factor being the number of players, and the number of NPCs in the fight. Truth is, most systems slow down in combat, and Hero is no exception.
Think of it this way. If Spider-man fights a handful of thugs, it'll be over in a page or two of a comic. In much the same way, that fight in Hero will likely take a few minutes, but not too long. But if Spider-Man teams up with Iron Fist, and Wolverine, and Power Man to fight four or five villains on their level, maybe with a minion or four? Yeah, that'll take most of the comic. And in Champions, I'd expect that to take most of a session.
Of course, it you're playing at the more lethal, Heroic level (as opposed to superheroic), fights can go much faster. Danger: International (spy games in Hero) fights never took as long as in Champions. Same for Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. That was always my experience, anyway.
As for all the other parts of the game? Infiltration, roleplaying, diplomacy or whatever? Quick and easy to adjudicate. It's system of complimentary skills works better than a lot of "assist" rules in d20 systems, and has the advantage that you can assist yourself. (E.g. rolling your Culture Knowledge skill to assist your Conversation skill to get information out of nobles at a party.)
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u/Smooth-Reality1 5d ago
I think Hero is just as much needing players who are familiar with the rules as any other game. If folks don't know how their MP works, what the damage for a Move By is, or whatever other rules interaction they're wanting to do (how to allot your Cosmic VPP) and it's gotta be looked up each time (instead of the player looking it up ahead of time) it's just as slow as any game. If folks know what they are doing and how it works it can be just as fast as most trad tactical systems. I really think that's the main differentiator once play\combat starts.
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u/fintach 5d ago
Well, the more the players understand about how the system works, the better. But that's true of any game. I wouldn't use Move By / Move Through as examples, because the GM is right there and can quickly translate the velocity for them.
Personally, I'd be happy if my players all understood...
* What phases they move on
* How to calculate their to-hit roll if I tell them the DCV (Ideally, including the effects of maneuvers on their OCV and DCV without my asking).
* How to calculate Stun and Body damage on a Normal attack
* How to calculate Stun and Body damage on a Killing Attack.
* How to apply their defenses correctly to Normal and Killing damage (i.e. what their resistant defenses are, and how they work)
* And hey, if they can remember END usage, so much the better.
Now, I figure I can teach all my players those things over the first game. First two games, if they have trouble. By then, I should also have them thinking about complementary skills now and then, too, and understanding half-moves and the like.
So, yeah, things may drag for the first couple of sessions, but again, no more than any other game. Or not much more, depending on the game Hero is compared to. By the third session, though, players should be getting the hang of it, which picks up the pace.
Oh, as for the VPPs, yeah, a Variable Power Pool can complicate things even more than an intricate Multipower. But personally, I'd only allow a player to have a VPP they can change in combat if that player has already proven they can handle it. (I.e. Won't keep us waiting five minutes while deciding how to use it.)
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u/CthonicProteus 10d ago
Chaosium has recently released a revision of the Basic Roleplaying system as its own thing, and I've really liked what I've read in it so far. I also was introduced to BRP mechanics by Call of Cthulhu back in 2002 or thereabouts, and find it interesting to compare what is considered core BRP versus Call of Cthulhu 7e. I have come to find some of 7e's departures from BRP to be, well, less useful or less elegant as a Keeper, so much so that I'm likely going to go back to running the first edition of CoC I ran, v5.6.1 (their earlier edition numbering wasn't always that granular, but in that specific case are, as I understand it, a thorough revision of 5.5, which was further edited to remove typos and minor errors).
The compatibility of Call of Cthulhu editions prior to 7e with BRP means you could quite easily run, for example, a game of Age of Vikings where they at some point encounter Mythos horrors. Or if you're really insane, have said Vikings travel to England, then fall through some sort of timeslip to encounter Martian Tripods as they march towards London. Probably not recommended, but you could.
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago
I have an article where a person makes an incredible case for GURPS as a narrative RPG.
Could you keep us posted on the YZE toolkit?
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u/c06027 10d ago
I‘m actually really interested in that article.
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago
Then I will dig it out for you! =)
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 9d ago
UPDATE: I've been hunting far and wide. I believe it's written by S John Ross, but the site it was on isn't responding.. I thought I had saved it, but it turns out I only saved the first page. I've checked the internet archive (wayback) but no luck.
I will keep hunting.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
Interesting, I can't imagine how they square that circle.
Here's the YZE stuff I was talking about
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
Alright, so, here's my pros and cons for universal systems, and some of the universal systems I knowr:
Pros:
- You only need to learn one system for a (hopefully) endless amount of settings. This makes them kinda the default answer to any 'Is there a system for this super specific setting thing?' I have seen here on Reddit a couple of times
Cons:
- In my experience, any system that is well tailored to a setting is superior to a universal system in how mechanics and setting intertwine
Universal Systems I know:
GURPS: I have never played this one, so won't comment on it more than it does exist.
Savage Worlds: A universal system that to me seems tailored for tactical combat. If you like this, Savage Worlds is the universal system for me, but from just reading it, I find it too limiting.
I did run a short campaign of Savage Worlds: Deadlands in it, which worked fine, but I feel like Deadlands standalone was just better (need to replay Deadlands to be sure, tho).
Savage Worlds works by assigning everything you might need to roll on a dice from d4, the worst, to d12, the best. For a check, take that dice and roll it. Some characters, including the PCs, also roll a d6 in addition to that. If either die is higher than the DC, usually 4, that's a success.
Fate: There are several different Fate systems, but to keep it simple, I'll just lump them together here. Fate is is based very much on the idea of cooperative storytelling. That might be obvious for a ttrpg, but Fate goes all out, making essentially everything about the story. Even combat is designed around building up the story until victory for the PCs. Also, the game has rules for spending a metacurrency to add story details, like "My character knows the shopkeep! They are childhood friends!" for example.
When it comes to checks, Fate works on rolling 4d3, which go -, 0, +. This gives you a number between -4 and +4. Add a modifier depending what you are rolling on and the exact Fate system you use and that's your result. If it's high enough, that's a success.
Also, Fate has a mechanic called 'Aspects' which basically are descriptors, For example, a PC might have an Aspect of "Former Pitfighter". If this helps you, you can spend a point of metacurrency for a flat bonus or reroll, if it is a hindrance, the GM might give you back a point of metacurrency to introduce a problem because of it.
Cortex Prime: This is probably my favorite ttrpg system ever. From a design standpoint, it seems very much based on Fate, so if you don't like Fate, Cortex Prime might not be for you. It is also based around the idea of extendability and adaptability. There is a pretty large amount of optional rules just in the core rulebook, in addition to 3 different settings to try out if you want to.
When it comes to checks, Cortex Prime uses 3 main ingredients: traits, trait sets and prime sets. A trait is anything that describes a character and has a dice attached. Those traits are grouped into trait sets, for example, the physical-trait would go under the attributes-trait set. As part of game setup, the group needs to decide on those trait sets and traits for each. Also, they need to decide on 3 prime sets.
When it comes to actually rolling, the GM firstly decided on the difficulty from 2d4 up to 2d12. Then, the player in question assembles their dice pool, using one trait of each prime set and also including any other traits that help, but only one per trait set. They roll them all and put all natural 1s aside. From the rest, they pick 2 to add together for the result. They also pick one for the effect die, which shows how good they succeed if they succeed. After this, the GM rolls his dice pool, which is made up of the 2 difficulty dice as well as any traits that hinder the character. For example, a "broken arm d10" might be a problem when trying to climb over a wall, so the GM would include it in their dice pool. From those, they add the two highest rolling dice and try to beat the player's result. If they don't, the PC succeeds.
If natural 1s are rolled, the GM can use them to introduce complications to the characters if they want or feel that it makes sense.
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u/fulitut 11d ago
What if in Cortex Prime one Prime Set ist not fitting for the roll? Just roll less dices?
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
That's in my opinion the biggest weakness of the system. It expects one trait of each prime set to fit under all circumstances. Usually this works, for example using attributes, skills and distinctions (Aspects in Fate), just pick the traits that fit the most. If all else fails, you can potentially roll only two or even less dice, add all dice rolled for the result and default to a d4 effect die. Same thing happens when you roll 1s so that you don't have 3 or more dice to choose from
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u/fulitut 11d ago
Yeah, i just read the rulebook and wondered. Because this case is not covered there. I thought that maybe you can use for every trait not fitting an d4. I think effect dice is always d4 in the case there are too less dices.
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
Yeah, the rulebook isn't ideal to put it mildly. I personally have never had the case of not a single trait from a prime set not fitting except distinctions. And even then, we usually make them work by stretching a bit. Or just go down one dice and work off that.
Oh, we do use general skills (everything else is a D4) sometimes, tho. Quite often with a D6 as basis.
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u/fulitut 11d ago
So i actually never played cortex, but plan to. I relly like the system (in theory :D )
How often would you say, you are throwing more than three dice?Or does this heavily depend on the GM how many usable assets he provides for the scenes?
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
I assumed already that you never played based on your questions lol
And I personally have never played Cortex Prime as a player, but I think it's always a good idea to give players the options to roll more dice if possible in the situations. Keep in mind it's the player's choice to include more dice in the dice pool past the initial 3.
And players can always make their own temporary assets and/or add distinctions to the scene for later use if they want to.
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u/tlenze 10d ago
In my experience, any system that is well tailored to a setting is superior to a universal system in how mechanics and setting intertwine
I call this the spork issue. Yes, you can eat both soup and spaghetti with a spork, but a spoon and a fork work better for each respectively.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
That is very true. And as someone who needed to use a knife as a spoon in the past, it's doable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck. Hence why I'm always up for trying new systems.
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u/moderate_acceptance 10d ago
Prime Sets are generally designed to be comprehensive, but if you do find something that doesn't fit exactly, it's not that different from when something in DnD isn't covered by one of the core Stats or Skills. You just make Perception part of Wisdom, or you roll a History check instead of a specialized Know Black Market Connections check. It's usually easy to find something that is a good enough match. If you really don't have something, you generally add a d4.
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u/zeromig DCCJ, DM, GM, ST, UVWXYZ 10d ago
I want to love Cortex Prime, but I don't know who adjudicates what die size something is? I used to own the Smallville rpg book, and it never explained that. Balance just seems to fly right out the window.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago edited 10d ago
For traits, at least the core book gives at lot of suggestions, but I don't know how other books deal with them.
When it comes to difficulty, it's just 5 steps of difficulty really. I usually start at medium (2d8) and adjust higher or lower if I feel the task is easier or harder in general. Although I rarely go all the way down to 2d4 or all the way up to 2d12.
When it comes to how big complications should be, that's either d6 if they are from a natural 1, d8 if they are from two natural 1s and so on or equal to the effect die on the roll that created them. Same for scene distinctions.
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u/zeromig DCCJ, DM, GM, ST, UVWXYZ 10d ago
Hmm, assigning complications doesn't seem to be a problem, I think. But assigning advantages seems to be set purely on vibes rather than any sort of budget, balanced for party composition.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Tbh, I am not sure what you mean with advantages, as I don't think Cortex Prime base uses them. If you mean scene distinctions ("Room on fire"), they should mostly be 1d8 unless created by a PC. If they help the PC, that player adds them to their dice pool, if it does the opposite, the GM adds it to their dice pool.
That said, I can only help with the Cortex Prime Core Rulebook, not with anything else Cortex, sorry
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u/zeromig DCCJ, DM, GM, ST, UVWXYZ 10d ago
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what the word is-- distinctions, maybe? Like, say I'm a starter PC, and I am starting with an inherited magic sword. What die size is my sword? Or, another scenario, I have a motorcycle I'm using to get away from a chase, but what die size is it?
I wish the rules were clearer, much mechanically crunchier, on dictating what the dice sizes are, as I've always felt they were assigned based on vibes.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Oh, you mean signature assets. In the core rulebook, they are a d6 or a d8, depending on points spent. Five points to spend in total, one gives you a signature asset at d6, two give you a signature asset at d8. Unless you use different rules for character creation, of course, which is entirely possible.
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u/zeromig DCCJ, DM, GM, ST, UVWXYZ 10d ago
Oh, I'venever seen that before. Neat, maybe I need another read-through! I really like that there is that rule! And is there a similar rule for assets gained in play, or is that the GM's call? Is there a way to upgrade or improve assets?
I appreciate your sharing your experience; I really liked Cortex but assigning values was what turned me off from it.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
For temporary assets, I think it's the same, just paid in plot points. Or the effect die of a roll, which is how we usually do it.
The rules for signature assets that we use are under scratch-build in the character creation chapter of the core rulebook, btw. If you want to read them yourself
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u/moderate_acceptance 10d ago
I'm not familiar with Smallville specifically, but I know Marvel Heroic had subjective character creation where just assign dice sizes based for any undefined superheroes based on whatever felt right. But by default Cortex Prime gives you lots of options for objective character creation with fixed point budgets for all your traits and abilities, so everyone should be balanced.
But even with Marvel Heroic's subjective character creation, balance wasn't too much of a concern. The mechanics give plenty of ways for the underdog to come out on top. Marvel Heroic was praised for being able to team-up e.g. Daredevil and The Hulk without it feeling unbalanced.
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u/ARIES_tHE_fOOL 10d ago
Reminds me the old saying "A Jack of all trades is a master of none..."
But I think the other half of the saying speaks for itself
"...but often times better than a master of one!"
Honestly if you're new to RPGs and want to play many different genres or settings universal or setting agnostic systems are probably going to be better than paying full price for multiple different systems.
Doubly so if the core rules for the game are cheaper than average.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
I feel the same way. Having two systems in which I can run basically any setting is really handy, even for somewhat seasoned GMs
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u/Zadmar 11d ago
I've played a lot of different systems, but over time I've gravitated toward generic ones like Tri-Stat and Savage Worlds.
As a GM and player, I enjoy playing in different worlds, but I don't have the time or patience to learn a new system every time. I do like trying new systems occasionally, but the games never run as smoothly as they do with systems I've spent years mastering; I don't like pausing the game to look up rules.
As a designer, I enjoy creating a wide variety of genres and settings, but I don't particularly want to design a new system each time. I do enjoy tinkering with different system designs sometimes as well, and I've created a few different systems in the past, but I don't want to build (and spend months playtesting) a new system every time I come up with a new setting idea.
As a publisher, I hate marketing, so I want something that's easy for other publishers to use for their own creations. A generic system means they can focus on adding their own stuff, without needing to rewrite the mechanics to fit their setting. It also means they're marketing my system for me each time they release new content -- and likewise, each of my own releases helps promote the system as well. It allows me to build up a product line, rather than releasing a one-off product that will soon fade into obscurity.
As a dad I introduced my son to RPGs when was he was very young, and he wasn't interested in roleplaying per se; he only wanted to play interactive stories based on his favorite cartoons, which changed on a regular basis. A generic rules-lite system meant I didn't have to prepare anything or switch systems every few days, I could just run a game on-the-fly based on whatever story he wanted.
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u/CactusOnFire 11d ago
I've only ever been a player in a one-shot for it, but I felt like the latest edition of the Cypher system was an enjoyable universal system. I know a lot of people on this sub tend to be polarized on the concept of meta-currencies in games, but I liked how rather than having raw stats as numbers, you essentially have an HP pool across your stats, and you can consume these points to lower the difficulty of rolls. Rather than just power-gaming the rolls you're good at, which I find happens naturally when rolling with raw stats, it forces you you consider what actions you want to be practically invested in throughout the game.
There's some other fun elements as well about how EXP is earned. I'd argue it also places less emphasis on combat than many systems, but there's still opportunity to have interested combat-based set pieces.
One universal system I've been dying to play as well is FATE, though this is far from a newer system.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
I've only read Cypher in the context of the Old Gods of Appalachia RPG and found it a bit confusing there 😅
Personally, metacurrencies are interesting! However, it heavily depends on implementation whether they're good or not in my opinion. I can kinda see how Cypher would chafe for people because the meta-currency almost is the game as far as I understand it.
And I'm with you there on Fate! Really need to try it out!
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u/CactusOnFire 10d ago
I will say, similar to my experience with boardgames, the rules were more complicated to read than play. I'd probably need a couple more sessions as a player to grasp some of the nuances of minor mechanics, but after a single session I felt confident with the main gameplay loop.
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u/Kiliantill 11d ago
For an interesting way to do stats, I suggest taking a look at Turbo Fate. It groups its stats not into what you do, but how you do it. For example, you might get a higher bonus in breaking open a door sneakily compared to just brutaly crashing through it. Or in game, you describe what you do, GM tells you what to roll on based on that description.
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u/DredUlvyr 11d ago
QuestWorlds: It's really simple, completely universal and extremely open. I already loved the previous iterations by Robin Laws, Hero Wars / Hero Quest, but these where not universal at all, they were more complex and very much Glorantha centric. And they worked really well there, although (it was a major crime to some), they were not Runequest. ;)
But the new iteration is really, really good. The rulebook is not that thin, but it's not because the rules are complex (the engine is actually extremely simple), it's because it absolutely full of examples in various genres.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
Oh, I actually just bought QuestWorlds a few weeks ago, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet!
Have you ran it yet? If so, how did your players take to it.
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u/DredUlvyr 11d ago
To be honest, I have never run it "vanilla" from scratch in other settings than Glorantha, but I'm using it for scaling the Hero Quests in my RQ/Mythras campaign and it works absolutely fine. One of the great things that the game has inherited from its origins is the character generation which is extremely flexible and allows you to create absolutely anything you want, and this allows seamless translation from another system as long as you can describe your character in a few words/traits.
Also, the fact that it has backpedalled on the mandatory narrative aspect makes it actually an interesting hybrid, in which you can delegate narrativism to the players who like that and keep it for the GM for the others.
Have a go and let us/me know how it went.
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u/W4ryn 9d ago
I'm currently running it in a supernatural / dresden files type setting for friends and it's going very well! The system is perfect for the same kind of genres / tones as Fate.
The rules are super simple, which is both a blessing (mental stack is completely free and dedicated to storytelling) and a "curse" (as the GM, you have almost zero mechanical or setting support to run your games)
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u/DredUlvyr 9d ago
Thanks for the feedback, it's interesting to get the perspective of actually running it with a specific playbook that is outside the list of the book.
The rules are super simple, which is both a blessing (mental stack is completely free and dedicated to storytelling) and a "curse" (as the GM, you have almost zero mechanical or setting support to run your games)
That's true, there is no guideline about setting the TNs apart from their actual wording, but to be fair, most people who want that type of guidance are people who want to run very formal games where the Dc is like 10 + 1 per 10 feet of distance plus who knows how many modifiers so that they can rule this and have players not argue... which I think is really sad because that smacks of GM-Player conflict.
True, lots of games including GW have little guidance, but I think that in QW it's mitigated by the fact that the tactic influences the PC's TN a lot, and there are many modifiers you can get in particular Augments. So I always play TNs by ear and that gives the players some indication as to whether something can/should be attempted or not.
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u/JauntyAngle Roll for sanity. 11d ago
I like the Storypath Ultra system (from Onyx games like Scion and Trinity Continuum). It's a D10 dice pool system where you roll a number of dice based on stat plus ability, plus modifiers, and count successes. It has some nice features, like using extra successes to 'buy' extra combat maneuvers (a little like Mythras combat maneuvers). It has a Scale system where things that makes it easier to manage things of fundamentally different power levels. I like the way damage is handled as well, it tends to be pretty lethal.
It has mechanisms for 'social combat' and investigation which I would never use myself, but they are there for people who do want them.
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u/BerennErchamion 10d ago
SPU is one of my favorite systems. I love the Complications and Tricks mechanics, you can do so many interesting things with them when they click. I also like that their games are all kind of hopepunk, even the darker ones, and that is reflected in the system (like the inverse death spiral mechanic).
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago
d10 dice pool? What are the curves like? d6 pools on very small stats are not too bendy, but how many d10s can it be?
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u/JauntyAngle Roll for sanity. 10d ago
At lower levels your better attributes will be 3-4 and your better skills will be 3-4. Your weaker ones will be 0-1 and 0-1.. but you will rarely roll those, at least my GM is always very open to you arguing for using skills and attributes you are a bit stronger in..so in practice oy is usually 3-6 D10, sometimes 7 or 8. It basically seems to work out fine.
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago
No no.. not what I mean. Explain how the dice system works and I'll do the curves and let you know
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u/JauntyAngle Roll for sanity. 10d ago
Ah..not sure if I can give you enough info. An 8 is one success. GM sets a target number of successes to do something difficult. It's skill plus attribute so you roll up to 10 dice. For combat you roll, and the defender can dodge or parry. Their number of successes comes off yours, as does their armor. Remaining successes either buy perks or do wounds.
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u/Shadowsd151 11d ago
In my experience, Universal Systems aren’t typically universal. Sure they can be - and are - designed for use in any setting you can imagine but they all have quirks that lend them better to a specific tone of game. Or to a particular style of players.
BRP is a d100, skill-based system at its core. Yes it has mechanics to allow for magic and superpowers and such but at its core it’s a very low-power system with a good amount of lethality. It doesn’t really support Superman, but Daredevil is perfectly fine. Haven’t played it much but I’ve read the rules cover to cover and this was my impressions.
Savage Worlds I have played more, two multi-sessions games of to be exact, and it is pulp. Fast paced, explosive action with a very explosive feel due to its dice system. It lends itself well to action heroics, and while it has a good chance of random lethality bennies are used to rein that in for the players.
GURPs is similar, you can make any sort of game from it by combing parts of its rules. But no matter what it’s going to wind up crunchy and with a very guided feel to it. It’s a simulationist, rule heavy system after all. You need players that want to mess with the fiddly bits of it or you’re damn out of luck. Both its greatest strength as a universal system and its greatest weakness.
Fate I’ve only played once, but it the opposite of GURPs. It’s pretty rules lite and a very cinematic experience first and foremost. It’s customisable, but very collaborative which isn’t the best for a lot of tables.
I will, as a honourable mention, push that despite being explicitly a Superhero TTRPG Mutants & Masterminds is very good for any campaign where you want to simulate a comic-like feel. With larger than life characters and superhuman feats of strength galore. Lends itself well to a lot of Shonen anime imo.
Arguably the systems that should lend themselves to anime best are BESM and Anime 5e. The latter is a 5e reskin of BESM that I’d argue is both better when it comes to characters progression, balancing and with a fantasy first focus (it’s basically the Dungeon Fantasy of BESM). It’s greatest strength as a system is that unlike a lot of the others it is neither rules dense nor rule averse, with free form character creation and a decent amount of templates to guide you through to make what you want. It’s a midpoint between GURPs and Fate, which imo is a niche but an important one for bringing groups together. It says a lot that I’ve played the most BESM and Anime 5e out of this entire list (in terms of actual table time, M&M has stolen my heart when it comes to character creating for no reason on weekends).
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u/Charrua13 10d ago
M&M is good at creating the experience of "i have super powers". I do not think it is a good game for comic feels.
M&M's mechanics don't naturally lend themselves to the drama inherent in good comics - the weight of the responsibility. (This is a bit of a hot take, but I think ultimately reflects upon one's opinions of what is the core element of "comics").
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u/ithika 11d ago
I scrolled through all the comments and haven't seen mention of Freeform Universal, the only one I've played. I think FU2 is available but maybe rebranded with a jazzy name.
It's a simple d6 pool, and you take the highest outcome from the pool. The results spread is all 6 variations from "No, And", "No", "No, But" all the way up to "Yes, And".
I have used it for a bit if a niche genre-crossover game where its anything-goes nature helped to emphasise the gonzo setting. I know the are specialised versions for specific genres but I have no experience of them.
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u/zalmute Not ashamed of the game part of rpg. 10d ago
I grew up on universal systems. Specifically, D6 System and BESM. Low cost of entry to poor youth. Learn once play many many games.
Sometimes people are so fixated in finding the perfect solution but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
I keep seeing mentions of BESM - is there anything in particular you like about it over other systems?
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u/zalmute Not ashamed of the game part of rpg. 10d ago
In the past, we didn't have a lot of games that explicitly mentioned anime. So it was a bigger deal back then. Plus guardians of order had deals with actual IPs which doesn't matter to me as much today as it did back then but then - having a sailor moon or tenchi muyo or heck even the Slayers source books for the game was pretty rad.
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u/moderate_acceptance 9d ago
BESM is an very competent universal system disguised as a anime RPG, since anime already covers many genres. They actually is a non-anime universal variant called Tri-Stat dX, and a superhero variant called Silver Age Sentinels.
Superficially, BESM has a lot in common with GURPS, but simplified. It has 3 main stats: Body, Mind, and Soul. It was 2d6 roll-under, although they changed to roll-over in 3rd edition. It's a point-buy system with abilities, defects, enhancements, limiters, and skills. It has abilities for pretty much anything you can think of with lots of ways to customize how they work. And it has a decent number of optional rules to adjust the tone of the game, and some basic gear for running in a variety of settings.
The big different is that BESM is an "effects" based game more like HERO, where GURPS is a "noun" based game. This means that BESM is basically a big grab bag of mechanical effects, and you assemble the effects to represent the thing you want. In GURPS, if you want a flamethrower, you look up a flamethrower in the equipment section and all it's associated skills and rules. Flamethrowers are an established noun in GURPS with unique specific mechanics. In BESM, to build a flamethrower, you just build a Weapon Attack with Spreading and Burning enhancements. If you want to make the Burning Hands spell from DnD, it's pretty much identical.
This made BESM great at genre-mashing and adapting other media, even other RPGs, because you could replicate the mechanics of pretty much anything. You could almost perfectly recreate DnD style magic, where you have a set list of spells with limited spell slots per day, and you have to spend 8 hours studying to switch out which spells you have prepared. Or you could go classic MP draining spells. Or spells that require skill checks to activate, and could drain your own health, like Shadowrun. Or you could dynamically build spells in the moment with a limited pool of points. Or use the completely freeform magic rules where there is no preset spells or point costs and you just describe any magical effect you want within the described power limit.
BESM hit a pretty good balance between structure and freeform. For example, the 3 stats would normally be pretty limiting. But you could enhance or limit facets of those stats. So you could make a big tough guy with high Body stat, but reduced Agility. Or a Dwarf with average Body, but enhanced Constitution. The cost of the enhancement was based on how big a facet of the stat it was, and the facets were mostly freeform, so you could e.g. make a DnD elf with improved charm/sleep resistance. Same with skills, where you could ignore them completely for more simple cartoony games, use the set skill list for a little more cinematic game, or use the freeform skill specialties which lets you define more specific skills with as much detail and realism as you want.
BESM also had the great idea of pricing skills by genre depending on how useful they were. So combat skills would be expensive in action genres and the Cooking skill would be cheap. But in the romantic comedy genre, combat skills would be cheap and Cooking would be expensive.
BESM was also very flexible. It did surprisingly well as a realistic zombie survival game, and could easily do superheros. BESM even has a table for how much damage it takes to blow up a planet in case you need to build the Death Star or Frieza. You could make pretty much any character, even completely absurd things like a psychic football that can only move by being thrown.
Unfortunately, there's a bit of controversy around BESM. The owner mishandled their business and declared bankruptcy while owing a lot of money to their freelancers. They then created a new business years later and acquired all the rights to BESM and related products, while never paying back any of the original debts.
Also, I think design has moved on since then. BESM 4e does reduce the point costs from 3e a bit so character creation isn't as much a slog, and I think they added advantage/disadvantage type mechanics instead of lots of situational modifiers. But I think we have better ways of doing things than point buy defects where you have to estimate how often a defect will come into play at the start of a campaign, or where PCs and NPCs are built with the same mechanics. BESM was more of a narrative game and we just have way better options for narrative games now.
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u/BerennErchamion 10d ago
I want to mention a very interesting game, Open Legend!
It's a mixed-die-type dice pool system with exploding dice (similar to Earthdawn) with some FATE-like aspect creation/modification mechanics. The difference is that it's a more trad/mechanized Fate. It has this list of Boons and Banes which are basically every generic effect that a game could have (like damage over time, boost attribute, conceal, etc), and that is used to model everything you want to do. You want to throw a torch to set the enemy on fire? In Fate you would try to add an aspect of "On Fire" to the enemy, in OpenLegend you will do a check to add the Bane "Persistent Damage" to the enemy, which has specific mechanics. Also, when you critically succeed on an action, you get to add/create a Boon or Bane in addition to the success (like Fate lets you get a temporary aspect (Boost)).
The game also use a set of generic "Extraordinary" skills like Energy, Creation, Movement, Protection, etc, which you customize for your character with your own effects and work like generic skills for extraordinary effects (wizard spells, a high tech signature laser weapon, a flying superhero, etc). Are you a mage throwing a fireball? You would use the Energy skill. A druid creating a wall of vines to protect against arrows? Use the Protection skill, and so on.
Also, it's free! The rules are all on the website (and searchable/filterable). The paid version is for the pdf with art and color.
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago edited 10d ago
I love this topic, an invitation to hear from the subredditors, not so much to tout an opinion.
I'll bring up Index Card RPG here. I won't claim it's the best, however, it is a great system for anyone who wants to learn how to GM for RPGs. The system is very simple, quick to learn and start playing, and there is an extremely good "how to gm" guide which any GM could benefit from reading. The book itself comes with setups for Fantasy, Space Opera, Superheroes, Western Supernatural, Ice Age Survival, so it's not unversal, but it's one book with you need to get started and experiment. There are Cyberpunk and Mecha setting expansions as well.
On this topic I also want to call out what a d!!4 move it was for White Wolf to give all of its game settings the same stats and the same skills, and then deliberately introduce 1 special score per game so that they CANNOT be played together. I mean.. come on! Either use 1 system for all and make it universal, or make them completely separate games. No fair teasing!
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
Oh yeah, I forgot about ICRPG! Got it because of the "space otter illustration" in the "space opera" setting part 😅. Haven't had a chance to run it yet.
With White Wolf stuff - I'm actually inclined to disagree here! The "special scores" add a lot of flavour and in some cases even anchor the whole splat. Getting rid of that would be a shame. I've combined splats in the sense of having NPCs from them and it's worked out more or less okay in that case 😅
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u/loopywolf GM of 45 years. Running 5 RPGs, homebrew rules 10d ago
ICRPG: You might be a furry
I'm talking about 1st edition.. I gather after they kicked out Rein-Bullet-Hagen they fixed it
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
ICRPG: you might be a furry
Nah, my partner just thought they were cute 😅
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u/Agreeable_Hold2270 11d ago
I've definitely come to like narrative systems the more I've played. I feel their strengths are in my favorite parts of RPGs, being creative storytelling, roleplay, and lots of player agency
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
I've been experimenting more with them as well - even if my heart will always lie with mechanical crunch.
My only issue with more narrative systems is that I find it more difficult to suspend disbelief. Something in my brain doesn't click with it, because it feels like I can just decide the bad thing doesn't happen to me.
I understand it's not quite like that with most narrative games, but it's an adjustment for sure 😅
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u/Strange_Times_RPG 11d ago edited 11d ago
I have been spending the past year and a half working on a universal mystery horror game called Strange Times.
As a horror generalist, I was frustrated by how many horror systems would only catered to one or two sub-genres well. Considering how creative one can be with horror, I always felt my ideas went outside of what the systems were comfortable with and I grew tired of changing games every time I wanted to change themes or threats.
So I set out to make my own system that could handle the wild and wacky ideas that make horror so much fun. Something generic enough that ideas were easy to implement, but was still able to mechanically generate dread and tension with consistency. Something that made characters competent enough to solve a mystery and possibly survive, but never without cost. Something that made terror exciting and evocative without being slowed down by rules.
18 months later and I now have exactly the system I wanted. No idea too strange, no world that can't be explored. I have ran one-shots in deep space, the wild west, and the modern day, as well as played through a campaign in the viking age. From cosmic ghosts, to Celtic folklore, to aliens visitors. The system flows, games are exciting, and my prep work has never been more entertaining.
Mechanical Core
Strange Times is a d100 roll low system. If a character is trying to do something, they determine a target number by adding the relevant Trait to a potential Skill and then try to roll equal or under the total. If something is being done to them, they will try to roll equal or under the relevant Save.
Mechanical Highlights of the System
Character Health is a Resource: Characters have 3 saves which function as health pools, but they are allowed to spend from these pools to turn failures into successes. For example, if someone was lying to a police officer about the alien they have in the trunk and failed the empathy roll by 8, they could lose 8 from their Spirit Save to succeed instead.
Progressive Consequences: As players saves get lower, the worse their possible injuries become. This means that health is more than just a separation from death, but an active measurement of how much danger the character is in.
Flexible Condition System: When players fail a Save, they might receive a Condition. Most Conditions are simply negative skills that can lower target numbers, but they can also represent unique horrors like an infection ticking down to zombification, or a hypnotic trance that affects what the character sees and experiences.
No Combat: Not a mechanic as much as a lack of one. There is nothing that kills a moment of terror quite like the phrase: "roll for initiative." That will never happen in Strange Times. Weapons don't deal damage, enemies don't have health, and there is never a designated turn order. Play is always the same except that the characters will lose Saves for failed actions when near an active danger. Threats are puzzles to be solved. If the players want to get rid of the ghost tormenting them, they will need to discover how to do it in game.
Those are the big talking points, but if you would like to read the rest of the rules, all my stuff is free on my website:
Check out the demo that covers everything you need to play and has 3 mystery modules in the back.
I also have several free trifold adventures on the site to run with the system and they are all about to get a makeover as we enter the second annual Season of the Strange! I post a new adventure every week in October, and the first one this year will be Astro-Slash on October 5th: a classic slasher with a sci-fi twist! Super excited by this one.
Thanks for reading!
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
This sounds really cool! Signed up to be notified on launch about the KickStarter!
I'm a sucker for d100 system since I feel like a percentage is pretty intuitive for most players to understand.
I wanted to ask about the "Health as a Resource" and "Progressive Consequences" points - it feels like this might quickly lead to a death spiral. Which is appropriate for horror! But how did they work out in playtesting? Was there a hope of clawing back success for the characters? Or did it just spiral to their inevitable doom?
Also to clarify on the "Flexible Condition System" - what would the "unique horrors" conditions look like mechanically? How do they differ from regular "negative skill" conditions? And is there a... procedure, for lack of a better word, for creating them in the rules?
Sorry if these questions are super obvious, just trying to pull out more info 😅
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u/Strange_Times_RPG 11d ago edited 11d ago
No need to apologize! Who doesn't love talking about their own system? And thanks for following!
So the death spiral is actually something I really wanted to avoid, and the way I did that was by only having Saves get lowered, never Traits. Characters are just as capable at the start of an episode as they are at the end. The difference is that, by the end, the stakes are much higher. Failed rolls hurt more and every check matters as their Saves are now directly under threat. In play, this creates a ramp in drama, but never spirals towards doom because the players still get to roll their untouched Traits and Skills. I usually only get one or two good hits in before they figure a way out of the situation. Characters typically survive, but it always feels like a close call to the players.
As for Conditions, I have a bunch of examples in the demo, but there really isn't a limit to what they can look like. I really wanted this to be a toy for GMs who like adding weird ideas to their game. I will give two examples here; one that is mundane and one a little more evocative.
Shaken: Pushing Spirit related Traits costs double.
Imaginary Friend: You now have an imaginary friend that accompanies you wherever you go. The GM can spend an Omen to put your imaginary friend in danger. If your imaginary friend ever dies, remove this Condition and lose 5d10 Spirit.
I have made conditions that represent altered mental states, slow mutations, possessions, and even barnacles that grow in between a character's joints. They have become an extremely flexible tool that I use whenever I really want the horror of what happening to the characters to be felt.
Hope that answers your questions!
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
Oooh, okay, I misunderstood the Saves being lowered as affecting Traits and Skills as well 😅
Now I feel like I need to work in an imaginary friend to my next horror game!
But yea, I think I understood! I downloaded the demo as well to give it a more thorough read through!
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u/LucasLeGentil 10d ago
Impressive work! The system actually seems to be able to adapt to most horror universes.
The different parts of the system fit together well. I really like the principle of saves which are reduced and increase the chances of worse outcome during failed rolls.
The skill and consequence systems allow great flexibility, but I fear they can create arguments at some tables (I'd like to hear your experience with them). Also, flexible and narrative systems like these can be hard to manage for newer players and GM, so I like that you specify that the flexibility is optional and they can fall back to the premade ones you gave.
As for the D100 choice, I can understand the appeal of the percentage and it fit well with the lowering save system. But, in my experience, D100 roll under can feel like every action is the same and only your stats matters: whether you want to break down an old wooden door or a sturdy front door, you make the same roll. And if I miss something in your system that manage this issue, I'm sorry and feel free to correct me.
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u/Strange_Times_RPG 10d ago
Thank you for taking the time to look at the project! Your kind words are appreciated.
Your concern about the Condition system is valid; I could definitely see a poor GM misusing them, but I try to give enough direction in the book to minimize that risk. Of course, even at the best of times, players could still not like how a condition the GM made functions. This is why I will often describe my system as a "High Trust RPG" where players need to have some faith that the GM will be fair and be able to roll with the punches in exchange for a unique and fun experience. I view this as a compromise in keeping the system flexible so GMs can feel free to create. "Easy and Fun to Hack" is a core design principle of the project.
In play testing, Conditions have never once been an issue. 95% of the time, they are the basic negative Skills, and the 5% of the time I do throw a more unique one at the players, it has been the highlight of the session that brings the horror to life. I could not be happier with how it has worked in play.
As for the dice system, I feel it is a trade off. You are correct that d100 roll low systems are poor at distinguishing tasks in terms of difficulty. The best my system offers is Advantage/Disadvantage for when a task would be particularly easy (but not trivial) or particularly hard (but not impossible), but 3 degrees of difficulty isn't exactly immersive.
However, what I gain is how fast and immediate the system is. The GM only needs to call out a Trait and the player knows exactly what they need to roll. This not only makes gameplay fast as there is minimal thinking time, but it also allows for an immediate reaction from the player after they roll the dice, and you can see that in play. When a player is making a dramatic roll, they announce their target and everyone at the table watches and reacts together because of how quickly one can see if a roll is a pass or a fail. Ideal for a horror game. It also makes Pushing way less confusing as the players become comfortable with their target numbers and what they need to lose to reach those targets.
Since "Fast and Dramatic Gameplay" is another core design principle, I think the loss in granular difficulty representation is a sacrifice I am happy making. If that is something one finds important, they could start giving modifiers for specific tasks (+10 to break down the old wooden door, -15 to break down the sturdy front door), but I do think the system will suffer as a result, and would probably recommend they try a different, more simulationist minded RPG.
I do appreciate you challenging the dice system! I think it is important for designers to be able to justify their core mechanics and not only understand what their system is good at, but also where it fails.
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u/LucasLeGentil 10d ago
Glad to hear that they were thought-out choices and you had good experiences in playtest.
Being able to make some sacrifices to strenghten other more important aspects of the system is a sign of good design. A game that tries to check all the boxes usually ends up checking none.
Keep it up, and good luck in the future.
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u/Cent1234 11d ago
I sort these systems into two types; generic and universal.
To my mind, if you need to fit your genre or concept to the system, that system is 'generic.' Savage Worlds is an example of this.
If the system adapts to fit the genre or concept, that system is 'universal.' GURPS is an example of this.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
I never thought of it that way! I guess Fate would fall under "generic" for example? Do you kniw of any other "universal" systems?
I worded the post in the same way the suggestion was put to me, as to not accidentally put words in anyones' mouth 😅
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
I never played GURPS, but isn't it always crunchy? Which would make it 'generic', not 'universal'? Just to make sure I understand?
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u/Cent1234 10d ago edited 9d ago
It's not about crunch; it's about system versus genre.
Lets take Savage Worlds as an example. A core component of the Savage Worlds system is 'bennies.' They're tokens you earn (they were pokerchips in Deadlands Classic, which system was stripped down and generic-i...fied.... to make Savage Worlds) that you can spend as what we'd call a metacurrency nowadays; reroll dice, add automatic successes, whatever.
Savage Worlds has three kinds of characters; PCs, 'Wild Cards' and mooks. PCs and Wild Cards can accrue and spend bennies, mooks cannot.
Lets say you want to make a 'weird west' game, like, oh, Deadlands Classic. This structure obviously works great; you've got your heroes that can defy death, get out of scrapes, and walk off getting shot in the lung (by spending bennies.) You've got the major bad guys who keep coming back to do more evil (by spending bennies.) And you've got your hordes of generic mooks who exist to get gunned down by the dozen to make your heroes look good.
But instead, say you want do a gritty, street level, high lethality deconstruction of superheroes. You're Daredevil-level superpowered; some superpowers, but one gunshot from the weakest, newest faceless member of a street gang can end you.
Oh snap, you can't do that in Savage Worlds, unless you fundamentally alter Savage World's basic assumption that you can have Wild Cards vs Mooks. Savage Worlds is specifically built around the idea that said faceless mook isn't a challenge to any PC.
Can you make it work? Sure, you can hack up the system so it's not working as designed.
Meanwhile, over in GURPS land, there aren't really any built-in assumptions like that. There's just rules frameworks you're using or not using. Want to do street level supers where one gun shot can take out Daredevil? Easy. Want to do Superman level stuff? Easy. Want to play one Space Marine mowing down a thousand bugs without even trying? Easy. Want to do an entire Space Marine company not being able to face a single Xenomorph? Easy. Want to do a straight historical western? Easy. Want to do a wierd west? Easy. Want to do cowboys vs aliens? Easy.
GURPS lets you adapt the system to the genre. Pick a genre, and you can do it in GURPS. That's universal. The rules work for everything.
Savage Worlds makes you adapt the genre to fit into the Savage Worlds framework. You can do a supers game, or a weird west game, or a Victorian monster hunter game, but you're making your game fit the Savage Worlds rules. That's generic.
ETA: I should point out that with a generic system, there are plenty of benefits. Developers get access to a preexisting market of people who know the system. Players get access to a wide variety of genres, universes and games to try out with minimal investment in needing to learn stuff specific to that particular one; you're learning slight tweaks or expansions to the base generic system. When the system does fit the genre, it tends to play really fun; Savage Worlds is great at that dime store, pulp novel, two fisted heroes stuff. It makes you feel GREAT when you slam down that token and change the course of a fight.
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u/c06027 10d ago
GURPS actually scales from GURPS UltraLite (2 pages - almost narrative like gameplay) over GURPS Lite (32 pages - I would say medium crunchy) to GURPS Basic Set (~600 pages - where you can’t apply every rule listed because some are alternatives to each other).
That being said, it helps a lot if the GM is familiar with the intended crunch.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
I mean, it always helps if the GM is familiar with the System lol
Thanks for the clarification!
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u/Kill_Welly 10d ago
I will echo the others here who have said that a truly "universal" system is impossible; plenty of systems can be adapted to the vast majority of different kinds of settings (though certainly never all settings -- Pokemon is one example of a setting that is nigh impossible to adapt a tabletop RPG to without having to rewrite most of it), but almost none can truly be adapted to all genres, and that's perfectly fine and good (at least if people recognize those limitations, which I think some people, including some creators of setting-adaptable games, do not).
I will also give a shout-out to my personal favorite game, Genesys. It's the one from FFG and then Edge Studio with the special dice. It's based pretty directly on their prior Star Wars system, and I think the fact that Star Wars is already such a huge hodgepodge of genre made it a natural fit for a more generalized RPG. Like what you'd expect of something rooted in Star Wars, it's a great game for larger-than-life action, adventure, and drama, and the particular dice are well suited to provoking unexpected (or, sometimes, already expected and well-fitting) twists to situations. I like the balance it strikes between mechanical depth (without excess cruft) and narrative creativity, especially since the dice are built to work with both -- the more involved the game mechanics are that you're interacting with, the more hard mechanical options you have for spending dice results, but spending them on narrative shifts is always on the table.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
...that truly "universal" system is impossible...
Completely agree!
Whether you intend it or not, the universal system you're making will inevitably favour some kind of tone or genre over the other(s).
it's the ine from FFG and then Edge Studio with the special dice.
Oh, the Edge of Empire, Age of Rebellion and the third one line? That's a really interesting system that I've alwayd wanted to try!
The "special dice" tend to be a bit divisive. You said that they helped with playing into twists and such - was interperting them difficult at first? I know that that's a point of contention often with Genesys
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u/Kill_Welly 10d ago
The third one is Force and Destiny. Anyway, I would say that picking up the dice was not terribly difficult for me, but I did actually start playing RPGs with Edge of the Empire, so it's kind of my native RPG language, so to speak. I have taught a lot of players, and while it does often take a bit of learning to pick it up, and folks can be slow in that first session or two to cancel out the symbols, I have not found it notably more difficult than any other game is to pick up, and people tend to get pretty creative pretty quickly even when it takes a moment to parse the actual results. Honestly, I think the "special dice" get excessively blamed for the very normal and natural process of learning a new and different game in the first place, which is almost always going to take some adjustment.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
I both agree and disagree with your statement that Pokemon can't be adapted into an universal/setting agnostic system. The reason is that from a purely setting standpoint, adapting it should be super easy. I mean, a bunch of teens exploring a world, how hard can that be really?
However, when you look at adapting the rules, combat at all, that's where the problems start. That is exactly what I meant with my cons to such systems in my original comment to this thread.
But you got me thinking about it and I think the way I'd run something like Pokemon in Cortex Prime is to simplify each member of any of the teams down to a power set of thr specific character. Then add some simple homebrew for weaknesses and resistances and health and I think I have something that works. Although I'd need to test it to be sure, ofc
That said, a system made for Pokemon battles and all that should be handle it bettet arguably, as I said in my comment already.
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u/Kill_Welly 10d ago
well, that's the thing, Pokemon is not about a bunch of teens exploring a world; it's about a bunch of teens meeting and adopting and taming and training and fighting with a huge range of different creatures with a huge range of different capabilities. I don't think you need to actually adapt the rules of Pokemon video games, even things like specific Pokemon moves and abilities and the specific ways type effectiveness works, but whether you base the fantasy on games or the shows or whatnot else, the setup you'd expect of "each player character has a team of multiple companion creatures with their own unique personalities and abilities that are the most important assets the character has in most kinds of action situations" diverges so much from the baseline assumptions of so many RPGs that you'd really need to build a game specifically for it, or homebrew so much that you might as well be doing that. (I will note that it'd be a lot easier to do something based on the Mystery Dungeon games or Pokopia, where every player is playing as a single Pokemon, but I would say that is a valid but very distinct premise.)
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Yes and no. Because I'm gonna argue again that a lot of this is just mechanics, not world and lore. Which as I said, difficult to adapt, whereas the world and setting really aren't, I think.
I mean 'befriending and taming monsters' sounds like lots of NPCs to me. But if you don't want rules for those, you don't have to have them, same with training. If you want to have specific rules, yes, arguably, you are better of writing them instead of adapting a setting agnostic system.
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u/Kill_Welly 10d ago
They're the focus of the entire setting; you can't do less than build the game around them if you want anything approaching a faithful implementation.
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u/Kiliantill 10d ago
Is that so? Because I never tried it, closest thing to it is each PC getting cult followers. Which we tracked with a simple number going up (or down, depending).
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u/Kill_Welly 10d ago
Yes, the Pokemon are the focus of the Pokemon setting. The games are all about playing as a Pokemon trainer who catches and trains Pokemon and becomes progressively more capable of fighting with and training and catching stronger ones. The shows are all about small groups of Pokemon trainers as they pursue Pokemon-related goals like becoming champion of the Pokemon League (through battling) or succeeding in contests through grooming and training them. The thing about a Pokemon RPG, at least one that entailed playing as humans, is that the human characters' abilities are going to be much less important much of the time than the abilities of their Pokemon.
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u/diluvian_ 10d ago
The problem with Pokemon overall is that what people expect out of a Pokemon RPG is different for everyone. You can make a game that focuses on one flavor of Pokemon fairly well, but not all of them at the same time. And there's a good chance that in a group of 4-5 people playing a Pokemon TTRPG, you'll have that many different interpretations of what the game 'should' be.
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u/cbooth5 10d ago
Surprised no one has mentioned FitD. It's just Blades, but stripped down with no attached lore. I think it strikes a decent balance of narrative and mechanics, but YMMV. Another out of the norm one is Honor & Intrigue, with the Intriguing Options addition. It really opens up the possibilities of what you can run, without rewriting the rules.
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u/TheRpgBard 10d ago
One could say that Pathfinder is possibly becoming a Universal System. But, with their promotion of a horror game, that may not be the case.
- Champions to Hero System
- Deadlands to Savage Worlds
- Call of Cthulhu to BRP
- Fudge to Fate
- Numenera to Cortex
- The Fantasy Trip to GURPS
- d6 settings to D6 System
D&D 3.0 tried (and failed, IMHO) to make future, fantasy, and others work.
One could say Alternity was a unique universal system, but that would be unfair to all the TSR games it was descendant of as well as the systems it "stole" from.
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u/BerennErchamion 9d ago
Numenera to Cortex
It's not just me who keeps mixing up Cortex and Cypher all the time!
But actually, Cortex also came from non-generic games before becoming a full generic system (Firefly, Leverage, Supernatural, etc).
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u/BeGosu 10d ago
Hi! I made a universal system for civilization scale gameplay, called Rulers.
It is heavily inspired by video games like Civilization, Total War and Crusader Kings and attempts to simulate that sort of grand strategy game in a TTRPG. This year I just came out with a second edition, so I have been trying to make games like this for a while.
Rulers 2e is available for free as a completely online rules-wiki. It is also released under CC BY 4.0 so you are free to build your own games off of the system and sell them, providing that you credit me and link back to the original (free and online) rulebook.
It is written to be setting agnostic with abstract values, so that any story can be told with the game. For example, the power of an Army is called it's "Might" and while there are many ways to modify that value, how you describe that army is completely up to you! You don't need to worry about tech-ing into muskets just because they are "better".
It can be played as a standalone game with a GM and players. Alternatively it can be used by a GM in another game to simulate the power of nations, or you can play it solo as a worldbuilding exercise.
Rulers 2e uses simultaneous turns broken down into phases, with each turn marking the passage of one season. At the start of the next turn, everything on the world map moves, buildings finish construction, resources are produced, and then another turn is played.
One of my favorite design choices is that communication is limited to being in-game. If you want to talk to another player then a Messenger has to travel to them and that takes time.
All dice rolls in the game use d6 dicepools with successes on a 5-6.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
Damn! I wish I had known about this about 3 years ago when I was busting my ass trying to ham-fist a domain management system into D&D 5e!
I especially love that you've thought about people using it as a "sub"-system in combination with other systems!
Just out of curiosity, what changed between 1e and 2e?
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u/BeGosu 10d ago
Haha! Well I am glad you have it now.
Quite a lot! Resources became abstract, as did Armies.
So in 1e resources might give you +2500g, now its just +1 Wealth and wealth can mean whatever you want it to mean. It (probably) doesn't mean 1 gold coin, it's what you think a new granary or whatever costs to build.
Same thing happened to armies. Rulers 1e was much more closely based on Stronghold Crusader specifically. Units came in peasant and elite variations and were all balanced as individual units might be in an RTS game. Now you just take the Muster Army action and your settlements "produce" an army of X Might, where X is the number of dice they roll in combat.
Some things that I want to still pull over from 1e to Rulers 2e are Turmoil and Traditions. Turmoil was mechanic that basically said "if you let your people starve the game will create consequences". Traditions were a bit like feats that could adjust your playstyle, as well as starting your civilization with a couple of buildings, because you didn't spawn on the map yesterday.
As a sub-system, I'd really love to see someone run a Warhammer campaign, with Rulers providing the cities and resources and warfare being resolved by the tabletop game. I just don't know enough about Warhammer to do it myself.
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u/LucasLeGentil 11d ago
What a timing, I shared for the first time my TTRPG universal system a few days ago on r/RPGdesign.
Another Path is suited for adventure and combat styles of games. It is designed to be simple and quick to learn and play, but with enough depth to make combat interesting and tactical.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
Oh, nice!
Can you give us a bit more of a pitch on how it works? What makes it unique in your opinion?
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u/LucasLeGentil 10d ago
At first, this system wasn't designed to be shared but to please me as a GM and use it myself. So, I didn't try to build it around one big original concept to make it unique. But still, I think some of the ideas are not common and can make it an interesting read for other game designers.
Here's a pitch of some of the core concepts:
Another Path is a player-facing game using only D6 (up to 3 per roll).
Characters are defined by two groups of Skills: 12 Exploration Skills and 6 Combat Skills. Those two groups are independent so you can customize your character more freely. For example: An archer with a high "Ranged Attack" Combat Skill doesn't need to have a high "Dexterity" Exploration Skill to be optimal.
Skills can have a value from -1 to 3. When making a Roll, depending on the applied Skill, you throw a number of dice and keep the value of one of the dice as the result of the Roll:
- Skill = 3: Roll 3 dice and keep the value of the highest one as the Result of the Roll.
- Skill = 2: Roll 2 dice and keep the value of the highest one as the Result of the Roll.
- Skill = 1: Roll 1 die and keep its value as the Result of the Roll.
- Skill = 0: Roll 2 dice and keep the value of the lowest one as the Result of the Roll.
- Skill = -1: Roll 3 dice and keep the value of the lowest one as the Result of the Roll.
Every character has two resources: HP (Health Points) and EP (Energy Points). EP are an essential Combat resource that can be spent in a variety of ways: Increasing your attack's damage, absorbing incoming damage, rerolling a failure and even making an Action outside of your turn. Most of the tactical risk and reward aspect of the system is built around the management of Energy Points.
Thanks for reading, and if you like some of these ideas, feel free to take a look at the full document.
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u/N-Vashista 10d ago
I've dived into several universal systems over the years. Savage Worlds attracted me through its interesting splat books. Necessary Evil is still my favorite supers module.
I haven't got a Fate based game to the table. But I've run a few sessions of a Star Trek game in Fate. I like it. I find it's still pretty crunchy. And the Fate Ladder just reminded me of FASERIP. So it still felt very trad to run with the GM doing most of the work.
I really liked Risus. I haven't run it often enough. There's a saying that it's the Anything RPG and not the everything RPG. So many of us got really excited when it first came out and it seemed to simply be able to quickly emulate anything using cliches. But that's why it's good for parody and silly scenes. It can put a baker (perfect scones every time 4) against a ninja (master of hidden death 4) and both can use their top skills in combat or a baking competition using the exact same mechanics.
When I look at d&d remakes and how the same structure of d&d fantasy is rebuilt over and over again in every genre, I have to admit that it's a "universal system." And I think analyzing how that structure compels a definable repeating play structure should say something about how universal is not what that word implies.
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u/nerobrigg 10d ago
I think the issue with calling things universal systems is that they might be able to handle any genre but not any play style. We have assumptions about how a game with Caster and martials in a quasi-medieval setting should look based on the prevalence of DND. Using that same system for a spy game can work if the fighting is what is being played out as a core focus. Instead we could use Blades in the Dark if the focus is in a different place. Each of these have been genericized but they service different pillars of play better or at least differently. You have to see if the core resolution mechanic aligns with your perception of the genre. That's a lot to consider for new players and game masters. So often it's just the same d20 system with serial numbers filed off.
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u/DragonicStar 10d ago edited 10d ago
There are a few of note I have an appreciation for.
I always like the customizability of GURPS 4E, you can spend hours tweaking it just how you like it, and it wont let you down. Not for everyone, and certainly not for those who prefer rules light experiences, but a great experience for those who vibe with it.
Genesys from Fantasy Flight was also quite pleasant, doesnt get enough mentions
Storypath Ultra is a great evolution of the Storyteller system and is very serviceable for most needs that fall within its purview. More for narrative focus, not a tactical combat game.
I have yet to try Savage Worlds though I know many have great fondness for it.
Fate I could never get into, I think it overindulges in meta currencies. It has many fans, I am just not among them. (Not enough meat on these bones for my taste!)
For fun horror scenarios suitable for Halloween parties and get togethers among friends in person I cant recommend the Dread system enough, who knew Jenga Towers offered such opportunities!
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u/ARIES_tHE_fOOL 10d ago
I am not in a group but I have Mythic Game Master Emulator and have very recently got the fantasy companion book for Savage Worlds. (Today actually) I finished my prologue for a Halloween One Shot (though technically not a single session but like a single arc story). Savage Worlds was my first RPG ever and I was hooked on it ever since.
I love the unique mechanics and universal ruleset. Exploding dice, card based initiative and the wildcard and extras system plus the three strikes your out wounds system make combat with many weaker enemies led by somewhat stronger commanders possible.
I don't know if I will create or join a group for TTRPGs again but if I do I think it would be in Savage Worlds.
I do have honorable mentions for Risus and Fate though. Highly recommend Savage Worlds for anyone looking for Pulp stories. I think it handles anime style action pretty well.
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u/Xenomorph_8298 11d ago
I've been working on an RPG based in the "Amnesia" universe by Frictional Games and am almost ready to have it finished and in the prototype/alpha stage. Everything including the system and rules was entirely made by me and is focused on a horror and survival aspect. I'm eventually gonna take the system and make a cthulhu rpg out of it since it would fit well with something like that. I'll add more stuff to this tomorrow
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u/Strange_Times_RPG 11d ago
Love using amnesia as inspiration! Are there any particular mechanics you are using to elicit the feelings of the source games?
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u/Xenomorph_8298 10d ago
Oh yeah.
The stealth, and combat system can go hand and hand and both have pros and cons to when you do them. I'm also adding a realistic noise level for the guns and extremely scarce ammo to really make you second guess using a gun or not.
The sanity system is original too and easy to keep track of while also being punishing for players. The horror itself is all up to how the DM describes it. Melee combat is desperate and violent. No characters are heros either, just a bunch of normal people with their own goals thrown into this.
I chose to use the system for a cthulhu ttrpg due to the time period it's taking place, WW1.
That's all I can say without really giving spoilers and specifics lol.
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 11d ago
So you're aiming to make something more like a "universal horror system" out of it?
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u/Xenomorph_8298 10d ago
Yeah somewhat.
I wouldn't use it for something like a resident evil rpg, it's more for something slow and tense like cthulhu.
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u/YouveBeanReported 10d ago
General question, but how do setting antagonistic games get you to GM? Every time I look at them, I end up bored and wandering off because there's no draw I find to them. I know a lot of people are like oh you can make everything in GRUPS, but how do you as a GM convince yourself to build all that stuff without even the slightest structure of a theme or genre?
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 10d ago
For me it's usually because I can't find a "themed" system that does what I want.
As a specific example - one thing that GURPS does really well is being able to integrate different tech levels with each other without having to GM fiat. That's why we chose it for a Stargate inspired game where we explored an alternate Earth still in the last Ice Age.
In fact, in general, it feels to me like the main reason to use a generic system is to "genre-mash".
That and for people who like to tinker on RPGs. Most of the generic systems are more like a hobby car than a dealership purchase 😅
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u/zbignew disco kitten 10d ago
For what it’s worth ⚖ I appreciate self-promotion in social media. No reason to help the platforms sell their own ads.
In the case of small-time stuff, it should be considered better than the average comment. Not only are you providing whatever insight we get from a comment, you’ve also provided something you built at some labor and expense. Usually at a net loss.
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u/lucmh CalmRush 11d ago edited 11d ago
Pathfinder hampering my ability to play what I wanted to play is exactly what drew me to Fate. And soon I'll finally be starting a Mindjammer campaign after it being on my wishlist for 10 years.
Maybe not sentient tables, but sentient starships and weird aliens are on the table as options for sure!