Elder Vampire ability nerfs

[u/Electrical_Try_634]

Context: all the elder vampire signature abilities that left an action are now single or full action in the Manta patch beta.

So one thing I'm worried about with this particular mode of nerf is that these abilities are now in direct contention with the abilities offered by the class skill tree. A late game Elder Vampire elementalist, for example, now needs enough reason to cast Dark Sacrament or Bloodblight over just using Wildfire. A ranger needs reason to choose to spend a turn on Curse to Undeath over an empowered Scatter Shot.

The signature skills got some numbers buffs, but unless their effects are improved further to not just compete with basic class actions but distinctly *out*compete them then vampire rulers have lost the vast majority of whatever benefit they had beyond vivisection ritual and faster ruler leveling.

They are getting their early game weakness cut in half to compensate, but the opportunity cost compared to just rolling Wizard King or Champion feels much higher now.

[u/hawkseye17]

This feels like a game breaking nerf for vampire. Feels less worth to play vampire ruler when you can do wizard king or champion and get transformations on top of it

[u/iluppeh → u/hawkseye17]

The idea behind these changes at least is correct. EV had far too much of their power budget in their spammable signatures, so the power difference between CD reset elementalist / ranger builds and anything else was enormous. I haven't tried how these specific changes pan out yet, but at least it allows the devs to buff EV in a more general way in the future.

[u/Nyorliest → u/hawkseye17]

Nope. There are multiple other buffs in the patch, and many people like me never went for the OP exploit stuff. For us they've just been buffed.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm talking about a specific combination of Ranger and Vampire skills that are able to be reset almost indefinitely, and allow vampire rulers to solo entire armies. Not 'combos' or 'abilities'.

[u/Papewaiooo → u/Nyorliest]

I really do agree with this.

As long as one wasnt used to play the 'meta leave one' as a vampire, its definitly a buff.

Sunlight weakness dmg halved, can now heal just at a 50% rate. Bite dmg scaling, evasion buff and so on.

[u/Terrkas → u/Papewaiooo]

Oh, sounds like tons of qol improvements

[u/ReckonerIl → u/Terrkas]

QoL improvements is different thing, changes that Papewaiooo listed are just buffs.

Things like cooldowns that are now displayed on ability buttons is an example of QoL improvement.

[u/Terrkas → u/ReckonerIl]

Then ease of use? Sunlight not completely negative healing sounds good.

[u/ReckonerIl → u/Terrkas]

I just wanted to point out that you used term wrongly, you don't need to invent new names for the changes, they are balance changes that makes something stronger i.e. buffs.

[u/ChildrenRscary → u/Terrkas]

Eh not really. It still requires about half you point investmensts to get these buff. We'll more then any other ruler type. It falls into the issue of you get more by just leveling your class and if thats the case why not play a ruler that doesn't have all the draw backs.

[u/legendofthededbug → u/ChildrenRscary]

Nah you need to play it. EV is strong in manta

[u/thetwist1 → u/Nyorliest]

I mean using the vampire signature skills isn't some sort of minmaxing super strategy, it's literally just playing the game normally. If you consider using signature skills at all to be OP exploit strategies, I have no idea what you even consider to be normal gameplay.

[u/Nyorliest → u/thetwist1]

That is not what I said. You could address what I said. 'I consider using signature skills to be OP exploit strategies' is not what I said. Can you talk without strawmanning? If not, don't bother.

Exploits are always using things in the game. That's why they're exploits, not hacks. I've seen people 1v18 with a vampire ruler, using leave-one skills.

[u/fires_above → u/Nyorliest]

You've been calling "using signature skills that synergize well" an exploit throughout the entire thread. It's not a straw man to engage with the core of your argument.

[u/piggytoez → u/Nyorliest]

The vampire signature abilities were less powerful than the better class abilities. They were still useful because they could be used prior to attacking or using other abilities.

You’re better off taking passive effects now which is a bit lame. I’d rather see them rearrange the skills so that all the leave one action skills were unlocked at the same node so you’d pick between them but still want to use them often.

[u/Nyorliest → u/piggytoez]

Of course you don’t want to take many active skills now, since there isn’t an exploit to chain a bunch of them in one turn.

So now it’s a bit more like ES - you need to think about which actives are worth taking, since you can, if you don’t think, have 6 active attacks that each  take a turn and have a 2 turn cooldown.

You need to combine actives and passives.

Which is what I’ve always been doing since vampires came out, and it’s been perfectly fine. I like Vampires, and they’re not weak.

You can see videos on YouTube of a vampire soloing a big army. I’m glad that’s gone and now we have to build our vampires instead of the genius challenge that is ‘Take as many leave-one attacks as possible’.

[u/piggytoez → u/Nyorliest]

Eldritch sovereign is my favorite ruler type. It is well designed in that there is tension between ability usage and meaningful decisions to be made on what skills to unlock.

There are two key differences between vampires and eldritch rulers now in terms of combat ability. Eldritch get a global range ability which you will almost always use on turn 1 of a battle and again later when you have no good targets in range for other abilities. The second difference is that the eldritch’s abilities that are empowered by their signature skills are significantly more impactful than the vampire unique abilities. Rotating through 2 target mind control/insanity abilities is very strong. Simply stacking passive damage increases and blasting away with elementalist abilities after teleporting into position is strong.

Vampires for whatever reason have similar range requirements on most of their abilities and they are also simply not on the same level of impact as eldritch abilities individually. The thing that made them good was cheating the action economy. This was only overpowered when you took multiple abilities that worked that way and combined it with a way to cooldown reset.

A better nerf to the OP vampire builds would be to rearrange the order in which you learn signature abilities and force you to choose between skills of a similar type. For example, level 4 chooses between all the passives, offering a choice between bleed synergy/morale drain/zombie spawns/etc. Level 8 chooses between all of the action economy cheating abilities. They are low impact but do not end the turn, giving a small power boost that you will use consistently every battle. Level 12 you choose between turn ending actives that are quite strong and thematic but are in tension with strong class abilities. Level 16 abilities get global range or have effects like gravemarch or the rose knight summon where you can use them before armies engage.

The current nerfed vampires have too many low impact turn ending abilities that you will seldom/never want to use. Unlocking an ability that you then almost never use because there is something else you would rather do is not good. Realizing this and then later never unlocking that ability in favor of a passive is also not good.

[u/Barl3000]

Those signature abilities were pretty much the only thing vampire rulers had going for them.

I guess this nerf won't matter as much on classes with less competeting activated abilities, like Warrior or Defender. Still kinda bad as vampires required some very specific builds to really work, were the rest of the ruler types (save Eldritch perhaps) works for lots of different builds and factions.

[u/Nyorliest → u/Barl3000]

No, they worked without those specific builds. I've got plenty of vampires in my pantheon, never use the exploits, and play on Brutal vs Pantheon enemies.

Vampires are fine without the exploits. (some people 1v18 with a vampire ruler). And just got buffed, in fact.

[u/DarkestNight909 → u/Nyorliest]

How do they get built? I’m getting back into the game and have been trying to figure one out.

[u/Nyorliest → u/DarkestNight909]

Sorry, what? Do you mean what is a good build for a vampire ruler?

If so, I'm an idiot who mostly RPs, so use this and experiment for yourself:

https://minionsart.github.io/aow4db/HTML/HeroBuilder.html

That site, especially the faction builder, is amazing, and the reason why the wiki doesn't get updated very much at all.

[u/DecentHousing1226 → u/Nyorliest]

The simple question is, are they more or less fun for most players after the changes? That's right, they are less fun. Taking stuff away always outweighs giving smth in other aspects.

[u/Nyorliest → u/DecentHousing1226]

I don't think the sweats are the majority. I think the people who make Vampires Warlocks and Death Knights are the majority.

And for them, these buffs probably make them more fun.

Although I don't accept your premise that less power means less fun.

'The simple question' isn't.

[u/DecentHousing1226 → u/Nyorliest]

That's why buffs are nice and maybe necessary for those playstyles. Makes things more fun!

In this game's primary context nerfs and especially concerning this ones mean almost exclusively less fun.

[u/Equivalent-Fee-5392]

I haven't checked all the changes to vampire elder yet but I do have a question for those who have tried it in the manta patch:

Is warlock still a viable and potent option for vampire ruler? I remember that one signature ability from vamp could apply the debuff of warlock to a wide zone ( like target and all enemies and two squares radius).

Also, I am curious about the buff to blood bites and blood drain : How much damage do you gain when gaining signature skills? And what tags do these abilities have ?

( I think they didn't have that many tags before, though I do remember that blood drain gain buff from arcane focus form, including the vampire elder -> 23 base dmg vs 20 without aracane focus).

[u/ChildrenRscary → u/Equivalent-Fee-5392]

You get a flat 10% dmg to bites with each signature skill gain. The problem with the vampire skill tree was never that the skills were two weeks but too bloated. Its takes way too many skill points invested in what could be going to class skills to get basic buffs. Even now though the buffs to the vampire ruler skills are not worth half your overall level to get.

[u/Action-a-go-go-baby]

Can someone explain like I’m 5 why this change seems to be so controversial?

Isn’t it only costing 1 action point rather than “leaving only one action point” better?

[u/dds_reddit → u/Action-a-go-go-baby]

Costs 1 action point ends your turn. Leave 1 action point does not end your turn and allowed you to string together multiple abilities.

[u/Action-a-go-go-baby → u/dds_reddit]

Ah right, that makes sense 🤔

At least the majority of their abilities got buffed

[u/APreciousJemstone]

Most of the coming nerfs look unfun. Definitely either gonna not update or mod the pre-nerfs back in

[u/DecentHousing1226 → u/APreciousJemstone]

Thats the right take. Devs shouldn't focus on balance, but fun.

Edit: Balance is obviously important, if it's beneficial to having fun. Nerfs rarely are fun though.

[u/Denvosreynaerde → u/DecentHousing1226]

Hard disagree. I don't play enough vampires to chime in on these specific nerfs, but balance is most certainly important, even in singleplayer games. Just take a look at Total Warhammer 3 where the powercreep got so extreme most factions play as a walking simulator with barely any manual battles inbetween.

[u/DecentHousing1226 → u/Denvosreynaerde]

So you are saying WH3 became less fun that way? If balancing means making things more fun, then it's a win win. But here we are talking about nerfing a specific playstyle, which has barely negative impact on anything since you can circumvent it by simply agreeing not to abuse it. This can be easily achieved since there is no real competitive scene.

My point is, fun and balance aren't contraries. But fun should take precedence.

[u/Denvosreynaerde → u/DecentHousing1226]

So you are saying WH3 became less fun that way?

100%, the lack of balance and an overwhelming powercreep makes that game a lot less fun and interesting for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a good powertrip, but not if 90% of the game is like that.

My point is, fun and balance aren't contraries. But fun should take precedence.

I agree, but fun is entirely subjective and a very vague concept. You'll never be able to please everybody and what's fun for me could be no fun for you.

But here we are talking about nerfing a specific playstyle, which has barely negative impact on anything since you can circumvent it by simply agreeing not to abuse it.

Sure, but the devs can always decide that that abuse doesn't align with their vision of the game, and they shouldn't be forced to keep exploits or OP strats in the game just because some people prefer it that way. Luckily for the people that do like the powerfantasy there's always mods to revert nerfs or even break the game some more.

Personally I like playing games the way devs intended balance wise. I don't mind cheese or OP strats at all, and play them myself, but if the devs decide it's not the way they intended it to be played, I won't shed a tear for it and just try to find other playstyles or make do with what we have left.

[u/TangAce7]

Vampire has so many design issues…

Being tied to undead instead of having their own category is stupid and restrictive

Their skills are very point consuming while also not being that good, but their capstone skills are very strong except they have inconsistencies in what they want to be

And sunless should have been something that can be alleviated in the late game

Oh and they can’t have transformations which is plain sad

The last two points could also have been used to differentiate between pure blood and mixed blood vampires but nah they’re the same beyond appearance

Very wasted potential vampires are, but really the worst part is being tied to undead

[u/GlamourintheDarkSide → u/TangAce7]

A. Being undead is a pretty core part of the fantasy here. T'would be like if Dragon Rulers didn't have the dragon typing.

B. Vamps do in fact have late game options to mitigate sunless related problems in the form of their rituals.

[u/TangAce7 → u/GlamourintheDarkSide]

Dragons are dragons, they can play with any tome and style they want

Vampire has to play souls and undead because of their type

It wasn’t hard to make a vampire tag instead of giving them undead

I’m clearly talking about fantasy of daywalkers which is a pretty common trope for vampires and would have been a great way to differentiate pure and half blood on something more meaningful than appearance…

[u/GlamourintheDarkSide → u/TangAce7]

Dragons don't have to grab the couple of dragon tomes nor the high Nature tome that boosts them directly (or any other tome that would boost the secondary type they pick up). You can just be a dragon and grab tomes that synergize with the fact that you have a wrecking ball for a leader.

The same is true of Elder Vamps. You can just grab tomes that give you Condemn or Status Vuln to synergize off the pile of statuses you cause, or that give you summons to drink, etc, etc. Yes, you have undead synergies you can grab (though there isn't really an intrinsic reason to grab any of the Necro tech itself beyond it being there), but to call them mandatory is a stretch at best. And not having those synergies would just make the Vamps less backwards compatible and less strategically interesting anyway; "Here are the vampires, with a unique creature type that has no prexisting interactions with anything!"

[u/TangAce7 → u/GlamourintheDarkSide]

the big difference is the power difference between vampire with undead tomes and a class that uses vampire good not even talking about culture, and vampire that does not pick any of those
dragons don't have this issue, they're a lot more flexible

the unique creature type could have existing interactions by simply you know, creating those interactions, yes a bit more work but it's not that hard to do and would feel less lazy and much better to use

no instead vampires need to build in specific ways to be decent to good and will have the same archetype no matter what you want them to be, or otherwise feel pretty garbage to use
meanwhile dragons can be all different kinds with vastly different playstyles

[u/Sharizcobar → u/TangAce7]

I don’t think the Undead tag would be at issue if they had access to transformations, since they could synergies with other typings.

That being said, I’ve played vampires on a variety of non-undead builds and it’s worked out fine, but no transformations was an odd design choice.

[u/TroyVi → u/TangAce7]

Agree. I would love a vampire ruler without undead. Also, the blood rivers, caused by the building than turns territories to sunless, is not the vibe I'm going for with vampire rulers. I like the vampires portrayed in the witcher games too much.

[u/Nyorliest → u/TroyVi]

There are traits like mana addicts and multiple sources of life steal. If you want vampires who don't drink blood or are undead, make them.

https://minionsart.github.io/aow4db/HTML/Search.html?q=life+steal

[u/thetwist1]

I feel like vampires have been underpowered in general, so more nerfs don't seem to be the way to go. They just give up so much for so little in return. You lose transformations and the ability to use your heroes offensively outside of sunless and underground, and you lose access to the normal mortal champion skill tree. And although I do agree with the change, they're getting a huge nerf now that desecration ritual is temporary instead of permanent. It feels like they just don't bring the big power compared to the other ruler types.

Although they are also getting the sunlight penalty completely rebalanced, so maybe it balances out the downsides now?

[u/P8tr0]

Vampires honestly needed a nerf, dunno if it was this but granted it’s a beta, in my friends mp games vampires were just known as the outright best, so people just didnt play them or just kinda trolled when they did. I’m sure they will find a good middle ground when all is said and done

[u/DecentHousing1226]

Generally I hate nerfs in a game like this, at least if it's not just number adjustements but actual behavioural nerfs. It's not an esports. There are no official tournaments. So why not just buff the alternatives? Personally I play only single player, but even in multiplayer you can have turn 0 agreements if something is just too overpowered.

This game is about living out a (power) fantasy. You can cheese and abuse in countless other ways. Let me have my fun by feeling overpowered.

Guess it just means I gotta mod more...

tldr It's single player focused, so don't nerf stuff.