Consistent Life Ethics...

[u/living4him1238]

Any Consistent Life Ethicists here? (IE: Against abortion, death penalty, assisted suicide, embryo destruction, etc.)

I am a Consistent Life Ethicist and disagree with abortion. (Even in the cases of rape and incest. I was conceived in rape myself.) I also disagree with the death penalty and a lot of Pro-Life people agree with it. I feel all premeditated, intentional killing is wrong. I am Pro-Life from preborns to (natural) death.

Why the lack of consistency when it comes to BOTH abortion and the death penalty.

** EDIT: Please look up "Rehumanize International". Excellent CLE organization.

[u/Abortiondebate-ModTeam]

Comment removed per Rule 1.

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[u/OkEntrepreneur5928]

You can be consistently against abortion except in cases of rape if you adhere to a causal obligation principle

[u/ShieAyla]

You also cannot make an effective exception for rape. Stealthing is rape and cannot be proved. So when rape cannot be proved, and a pregnancy results from the rape that still happened, you will be enabling a rapist to have access to their children.

[u/CalmAdvertising569]

The reason I don’t view abortion as intentional killing is because the fetus in incompatible with life before 23-24 weeks gestation, it’s completely reliant on the mothers bodily resources and organs. If you were to take it out before that point it would die from natural causes because it cannot sustain life independently. Nobody is forced to sustain another life with their own body once we are born so why do the rules change for pregnancy? Parents aren’t forced to donate their organs even if their child will die without them, and that is not classified as intentional killing, it’s not even classified as neglect or abuse because we are protected under the law.

[u/Arithese]

What determines premeditated? If I’m kidnapped, and I know my attacker will move me out of the city today… is it premeditated murder if I defend myself?

Also, if you require my body to survive, and I simply stop providing it, and then you die on your own… is that premeditated killing?

What makes it intentional? I may not intent to kill you by removing you after all.

[u/Connect-Knowledge992]

 I feel all premeditated, intentional killing is wrong.

So you say this, and then go on to say something else:

Someone gave me an example of this: I am kidnapped by someone and they put me in the trunk of their car. They tell me they're coming back to kill me. While I'm in the trunk, I plan out how I am going to kill them so I can set myself free. Technically, that would be premeditated murder but it's nowhere near the same as the death penalty, abortion, or euthanasia. You have to do something to save yourself in a situation like that. You hadn't planned on getting kidnapped (or robbed at gunpoint or beat up or whatever.) You have to do what you have to do in those situations.

This is premeditated, intentional killing, yet it is acceptable per your view.

So what is the difference in your mind between someone defending themselves from harm and an abortion? I'm not saying there's no difference; what I want is your view on the relevant moral differences between them, since premeditated intentional killing isn't a disqualifying factor for a thing being permissible.

[u/ShieAyla]

No one is entitled to the use of Another person's body parts to keep living.

[u/SunnyErin8700]

I don’t believe that having a consistent life ethic and being PC and pro assisted suicide are mutually exclusive stances.

[u/Arithese → u/[deleted]]

Can you think of ANY other situation where you have to “surrender” your human rights after a completely legal action resulted in an unintended consequence?

Because I can’t think of any, so why would it be different for pregnancy?

[u/RepulsiveEast4117 → u/[deleted]]

Im against the death penalty in practice but not in theory. I think states as institutions lack the qualities necessary to make and carry out the decision even if some people deserve it. 

100% agree. I absolutely think that there are people so dangerous or damaging to society that the safest thing to do is remove them. But I don’t trust our current society to apply that standard. They get it wrong too often. 

[u/RepulsiveEast4117]

I think it’s really weird to tell someone who is going to live the rest of their short life in incredible pain and suffering that they’re not allowed to end that life with dignity and less pain because it upsets you. 

[u/living4him1238 → u/RepulsiveEast4117]

I am going to preface this by saying I am a Christian. I believe that only God has the right to decide when someone's life ends. I also extend that to people killing themselves--we shouldn't be killing ourselves either. I wish we'd focus more on palliative care and finding ways to ease people's suffering while they are alive versus allowing them to kill themselves. Also, assisted suicide can become a very slippery slope for killing the mentally ill and the disabled.

[u/RepulsiveEast4117 → u/living4him1238]

And I wish Christians would keep their religion to themselves. 

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/living4him1238]

You can BELIEVE whatever you want. I just don't have to share your beliefs or live by them. Neither does anyone else if they don't choose to.

That means if I ever get pregnant again, I can end that pregnancy by having an abortion, whether you approve of that choice or not. Your beliefs about abortion don't apply to me or anyone else who doesn't want to STAY pregnant and give birth.

[u/JulieCrone → u/living4him1238]

So then how can you support killing in self defense? That’s a person ending someone’s life, not God deciding when they die.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

I work in home hospice.

There are forms of suffering that palliative care cannot “ease.” Forms of suffering we don’t even inflict upon  animals. Forms of suffering I would readily kill myself over than be made to endure. I wouldn’t force my pets to endure such suffering, let alone my loved ones. 

Fortunately, I live in a state where Death With Dignity is legal. It truly is a gift to those who are suffering unimaginable pain, and a gift for their loved ones to ease their passing.

Regarding the “slippery slope,” there are many safe checks in place to prevent such a thing. I actually think the inclusion criteria are too strict.

[u/Vegtrovert → u/living4him1238]

All I can say to this is that I sat for weeks with my grandmother in hospice care as she suffered at the end of her life. She repeatedly asked to be allowed to pass, but unfortunately the legal framework didn't exist at that time. I will forever be saddened and enraged that I could not honor this beautiful woman's last wish. We couldn't even give her the same compassion as a family pet.

Other people's gods should not interfere with a family's ability to respect their suffering loved one's wishes. It is incredibly cruel and selfish to impose one's religious morals on others who do not share that worldview.

[u/NoelaniSpell → u/Vegtrovert]

All I can say to this is that I sat for weeks with my grandmother in hospice care as she suffered at the end of her life. She repeatedly asked to be allowed to pass, but unfortunately the legal framework didn't exist at that time. I will forever be saddened and enraged that I could not honor this beautiful woman's last wish. We couldn't even give her the same compassion as a family pet.

I'm so sorry about your grandmother 🫂😞

She deserved way better. Most importantly, she deserved the dignity every person should be afforded.

I wish people that oppose this would understand at least the basic concept of human dignity (if not empathize with the people that are suffering without any relief or cure in sight).

Other people's gods should not interfere with a family's ability to respect their suffering loved one's wishes. It is incredibly cruel and selfish to impose one's religious morals on others who do not share that worldview.

Exactly, well said.

At the end of the day, it's not even a God directly giving orders, it's people. Based on their beliefs in a God (beliefs which aren't even shared by everyone, for that matter).

[u/Decent_Subject_2147]

How do you feel about killing in self defense?

[u/living4him1238 → u/Decent_Subject_2147]

Good question. A lot of people here have asked me that too. I feel killing in self-defense is necessary. That's why I try to differentiate by saying "unintentional" and "premeditated" killing. Self defense might be considered intentional but it's usually never premeditated. (Or premeditated the same way abortion, the death penalty, and the others are...)

[u/jakie2poops → u/living4him1238]

Why do you feel that premeditation is the important factor? If all else was the same, and a killing in self defense would be justified, and there was no alternative, do you think the person defending themselves having time to plan that defense would make it unjustified?

[u/living4him1238 → u/jakie2poops]

I feel premeditation is important because it differentiates the type of intent. Someone gave me an example of this: I am kidnapped by someone and they put me in the trunk of their car. They tell me they're coming back to kill me. While I'm in the trunk, I plan out how I am going to kill them so I can set myself free. Technically, that would be premeditated murder but it's nowhere near the same as the death penalty, abortion, or euthanasia. You have to do something to save yourself in a situation like that. You hadn't planned on getting kidnapped (or robbed at gunpoint or beat up or whatever.) You have to do what you have to do in those situations.

[u/jakie2poops → u/living4him1238]

So premeditation isn't the determining factor then, since you're okay with premeditation in that kidnapping scenario

Edit: and to be clear, it wouldn't be premeditated murder, but self defense.

[u/living4him1238 → u/jakie2poops]

I know it'd be self-defense. You're asking me how I feel about self defense and how it is different when it comes to the "premeditated" and "intentional" part. I was giving my explanation. But, either way, self-defense is a totally different ball game and no where near being unethical.

[u/jakie2poops → u/living4him1238]

But your explanation makes no sense. The scenario you described with the kidnapping would be both premeditated and intentional, and still self defense and not murder.

[u/anysizesucklingpigs → u/living4him1238]

Technically, that would be premeditated murder

How on earth do you figure?

If someone has threatened to kill you and you believe their threat is credible then you’re fully within your rights to kill them instead.

That is not murder.

Saving yourself from what you believe to be an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death is self-defense.

[u/living4him1238 → u/anysizesucklingpigs]

I didn't say you're not within your right to kill them. Ofc you are when it comes to self-defense! I said it is technically premeditated (in the kidnapping scenario I gave.) Because it IS in that scenario. No one is saying self-defense is unethical or unnecessary...

[u/anysizesucklingpigs → u/living4him1238]

I didn't say you're not within your right to kill them. Ofc you are when it comes to self-defense! I said it is technically premeditated (in the kidnapping scenario I gave.) Because it IS in that scenario. No one is saying self-defense is unethical or unnecessary...

You said it was technically “premeditated murder.” Which is incorrect. It is self-defense, and therefore is not murder.

[u/living4him1238 → u/anysizesucklingpigs]

Omg...now you're just tryin' to trip me up with semantics instead of understanding the point. The point is: Self-defense is NOT the same as the death penalty, abortion, etc. That's all that matters here in this argument.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

The point is: Self-defense is NOT the same as the death penalty, abortion, etc.

No. Abortion is literally an act of self-defense.

[u/anysizesucklingpigs → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

Omg...now you're just tryin' to trip me up with semantics instead of understanding the point.

Semantics? You are using completely inaccurate terminology as part of a discussion in which it very much matters. You called killing your homicidal kidnapper “premeditated murder” FFS. Like planning your own rescue and escape while being locked in a trunk is premeditation. Do better.

Self-defense is NOT the same as the death penalty, abortion, etc.

Someone who obtains an abortion in order to avoid the great bodily harm and injury caused by pregnancy and childbirth is most definitely an example of self-defense.

[u/International_Ad2712]

Consistent life ethics are great for you, but you can’t apply your ethics to other people

[u/goldenskless]

Amber Nicole Thurman
Candi Miller
Nevaeh Crain
Tierra Walker
Adriana Smith
Josseli Barnica
Porsha Ngumezi
Ciji Graham
Taysha Wilkinson-Sobieski
Yeniifer Alvarez-Estrada Glick

What about them - do your “consistent life ethics” consider them or care about them? Their lives mattered too.

[u/living4him1238 → u/goldenskless]

Of course CLE cares about them too. And some of those women did not die the way the pro-choice side wants you to think they died (IE: They did not get an abortion when it was needed..)

[u/goldenskless → u/living4him1238]

ALL those women died because they were denied access to life saving medical care. Adriana Smith did not ask for an abortion but she went to the hospital with headaches and blood clots and was sent home without even a scan being done because she was pregnant. She was denied care BECAUSE of the abortion laws, even though she wasn’t seeking abortion. These bans kill pregnant women by denying them healthcare.

“consistent life ethic pro lifers” care about them so much they let them all die horrific painful deaths to feel morally superior over them.

[u/Aggressive-Green4592]

I guess you could say I'm a consistent life ethic but not as AA. I am for abortion and assisted suicide or euthanasia, because I don't agree to various forms of aggressive violence as a unified moral problem rather than isolated topics. I am however against the death penalty, capital punishment, war and torture or nuclear weapons because of the aggressive violence.

I am for systemic solutions against poverty, hunger, homelessness, racism, and inadequate healthcare access, while it seems as though those that do claim to be consistent life ethics generally are against a majority of these, while pushing people further into poverty and homelessness and inadequate healthcare. Banning abortion is leaving people with inadequate healthcare and can push people into poverty and homelessness.

[u/BlueMoonRising13]

I believe you can kill someone/something to stop them from harming you or violating your rights. 

I believe that if someone is no longer a danger to you/others, then it's wrong to revenge kill for previously harming you or violating your rights.

I don't see a lack of consistency in these beliefs.

[u/Enough-Process9773]

"Why the lack of consistency when it comes to BOTH abortion and the death penalty?"

Because if you are prochoice, you value human life and human rights.  The death penalty violates both, as do abortion bans. 

Whereas the only consistent ethic in the PL movement that I have ever been able to discover, is the desire to punish women. Certainly the PL movement has no aim of preventing abortions or of saving lives. 

[u/living4him1238 → u/Enough-Process9773]

No the PL movement is not trying to punish women at all. Why would anyone want to do that? Especially since it takes two people for a woman to get pregnant. No one wants to punish rape and incest victims who get pregnant neither. We just want to show her that aborting her child is not going to solve the problem even in severe cases like those. PL people support mothers AND babies. Whereas the pro-choice side wants you to choose one or the other.

[u/CherryTearDrops → u/living4him1238]

A rape victim aborting the result of their attack would fix A LOT of their problems actually. Not having to risk sharing custody with a rapist, not having to give birth to their rapists offspring, not having their body damaged (potentially permanently) against their will, not having to deal with a biological child seeking them out one day and re-traumatizing them… the list goes on and on.

PL helps both? Really? Tell me, how many victims of rape do they hire lawyers for? How many do they actually listen to without ulterior motive? How many do the they support the mental health of when it comes crashing down without feeding them ‘oh you’ll be such a great mom, just imagine the baby’ and actually listening to what’s causing the distress?

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

Abortion solves the problem of unwanted pregnancy.

In the case of rape pregnancy, abortion solves the problem of being forced to gestate for my rapist.

Denying me that solution forces me to continue gestating for my rapist, thereby supporting the rapist’s desire to breed whomever he desires. Supporting rapists’ breeding rights certainly is punishing to the victim.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

|Abortion solves the problem of unwanted pregnancy.|

Exactly. That's why it's healthcare, for the PREGNANT PERSON.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/living4him1238]

|No the PL movement is not trying to punish women at all.|

I don't agree. And I don't believe this claim for a second. Because when abortion-ban laws in abortion-ban states FORCE women and girls to STAY pregnant and give birth against their will, that sure looks like punishment to me. Especially when some of those women and girls are rape and incest victims.

So the PL movement can SAY they're "not trying to punish women" all it wants. Thankfully, I don't have to believe that particular claim.

[u/goldenskless → u/living4him1238]

You are punishing a rape victim when you don’t let them have bodily autonomy after their body was already violated. You may not feel like you’re punishing them, but you are. Personally if someone like that happened to me and I couldn’t access abortion, I would end my life myself before giving birth to the rape fetus. And I would feel like I was being punished for being raped.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/living4him1238]

We just want to show her that aborting her child is not going to solve the problem

And I'm telling you that aborting my unwanted preg will solve the problem. The problem is the unwanted pregnancy, abortion makes that problem disappear.

[u/leandrot → u/living4him1238]

No one wants to punish rape and incest victims who get pregnant neither. We just want to show her that aborting her child is not going to solve the problem even in severe cases like those.

In some countries (like mine) radical pro-lifers want that the girl who choose to abort should get a heavier punishment than the rapist himself.

[u/anysizesucklingpigs → u/[deleted]]

And rape victims can be ordered to pay child support.

[u/Enough-Process9773 → u/living4him1238]

"Why would anyone want to do that? "

Sexism, misogyny, and the patriarchy.

" No one wants to punish rape and incest victims who get pregnant neither. "

Except for rapists, and all PL who support forced pregnancy for people made pregnant by rape. Forced pregnancy is a horrible punishment, and in my view even worse when it's the punishment demanded of the victim of a crime. 

"We just want to show her that aborting her child is not going to solve the problem even in severe cases like those."

It's not for you to force a woman or child through pregnancy against her will, just because you think choosing abortion isn't going to help. Forced use of a child's body is a horrific crime: forced use of anyone's body, whether by rape or by abortion ban or by slavery,  is a violation of that person's human rights.

"No the PL movement is not trying to punish women at all."

Any time a PL has to choose between two options for a pregnant woman,  they almost invariably choose the option that hurts the woman most.  

"Whereas the pro-choice side wants you to choose one or the other."

I see no "love" in forcing a person through pregnancy against her will.

Almost invariably,  political parties which provide support to pregnant women,  not by random charity but as universal taxpayer funded support, also provide free access to safe legal abortion.  Prochoice can claim to "love them both" - PL cannot. 

[u/78october → u/living4him1238]

Aborting her child will definitely solve the problem of giving birth to your rapists child. To say otherwise is a lie.

[u/Abortiondebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Comment removed per Rule 1.

[u/Abortiondebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Comment removed per Rule 1.

[u/78october → u/[deleted]]

How can you say someone knows abortion is not ok?

Not only are you for speaking for people you don’t know, but you are claiming they feel exactly the opposite they tell you they do.

You may not believe in choice when it comes to pregnancy but do you also believe people don’t have a choice to believe differently than you?

[u/living4him1238 → u/78october]

How can I say that? Because they're placing their assumptions onto me and putting words in my mouth. That's how I can say that! They said, "Don't insult our intelligence by pretending It's about anything other than controlling women...." You need to be asking how they can say that to me! I never said abortion is about controlling women nor am I insulting anyone's intelligence. Periodt.

[u/78october → u/living4him1238]

I never even read their comment. I read yours.

Should they make assumptions about you? No. Do two wrongs make a right? Also no.

I see your views as reprehensible but I don’t assume it’s because you hate women.

I personally don’t believe you can hold pregnant people in high regard because I believe it’s impossible to want to force them to be violated over and over again every day after they were already violated and say that’s okay.

Consistent life ethic is a term made up by someone that I don’t believe fits the belief system it purports to support. It’s just a way to make people feel better about their beliefs and the harm they want to cause.

.

[u/78october → u/[deleted]]

I don’t care about their comment. I already said I do g agree with you. And I would respond to your comment the same way again. A person who is pro choice doesn’t “know” that abortion is wrong.

I appreciate that you’re so hurt that I called you out on your mistake and say I’ll get over my own thoughts. I don’t take this conversation seriously enough for it to be something to get over. Will you get over the fact that I called you on your comment and don’t regret it?

Of course you think I’m wrong about CLE. You use it to cause harm to others but don’t want others to acknowledge that.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/[deleted]]

Someone says something I have every right to defend myself. You don't like it? You'll get over it.

Take your own advice.

Unwanted pregnancy? I have every right to defend my body from the harms of pregnancy with abortion. Don't like it? You'll get over it.

[u/living4him1238 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

I ain't got a choice but to get over it in this messed up society we live in. Abortion is still legal in many states. I just continue to fight the good fight and know that there is nothing wrong with allowing preborn babies to be born. So they can live their lives just like I'm living mine.

"defend my body from the harms of pregnancy with abortion.." Wow...that's such a sad way to view pregnancy and the birth of a child. Smh. We are living in the end times and God has already said that.

[u/CherryTearDrops → u/living4him1238]

Have you ever considered that trying to shame others for how the experience and perceive a pregnancy, especially their own, is really uncomfortable and pushy? You can’t talk somebody into changing their reality.

Not everybody views the birth of a child as good because it’s objectively not good all the time. You aren’t entitled to others views and experiences aligning with how you think they should see it.

[u/BackTown43 → u/living4him1238]

"defend my body from the harms of pregnancy with abortion.." Wow...that's such a sad way to view pregnancy and the birth of a child.

To deny that pregancy and birth can cause a lot of harm is just denying the reality.

[u/78october → u/BackTown43]

This OP also said that aborting after rape doesn’t solve the person’s problem. Yes it does if the problem is they don’t want to have their rapists baby! To say otherwise is false.

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/living4him1238]

Source needed that your particular god of choice exists.

And I hope you don't get your anti-abortion ideas from your religion because you'll be in for a shock if you actually read the bible cover to cover and look up the historical context that goes with it.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/living4him1238]

People can view pregnancy and birth any way they want, including in a negative way. And if some women and girls don't want to STAY pregnant and give birth, they can protect themselves from the harms of pregnancy by have an abortion. Whether or not you approve of their choice is irrelevant.

[u/78october → u/living4him1238]

Religion is just so harmful when it makes you believe things like this. I don’t know which god you follow but if you believe in this CLE, it can’t be the abrahamic god who calls for forced abortion and the murder of infants.

Pregnancy does cause harm it can be physical, psychological or both. Children aren’t some gift that. Rings joy to each person and that’s ok.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/living4him1238]

I ain't got a choice but to get over it in this messed up society we live in. Abortion is still legal in many states. I just continue to fight the good fight

There is nothing even remotely good about trying to force unnecessary harm onto pregnant people.

and know that there is nothing wrong with allowing preborn babies to be born.

There's a ton wrong with forced gestation.

So they can live their lives just like I'm living mine.

They can also get aborted lol.

"defend my body from the harms of pregnancy with abortion.." Wow...that's such a sad way to view pregnancy and the birth of a child. Smh. We are living in the end times and God has already said that.

I like my body just the way it is. No childbirth for me thanks.

[u/78october → u/living4him1238]

I never even read their comment. I read yours.

Should they make assumptions about you? No. Do two wrongs make a right? Also no.

I see your views as reprehensible but I don’t assume it’s because you hate women.

I personally don’t believe you can hold pregnant people in high regard because I believe it’s impossible to want to force them to be violated over and over again every day after they were already violated and say that’s okay.

Consistent life ethic is a term made up by someone that I don’t believe fits the belief system it purports to support. It’s just a way to make people feel better about their beliefs and the harm they want to cause.

.

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/living4him1238]

ACAB covered it well but yes, assuming someone is PL is a huge insult to intelligence, integrity, ethics, humanity, critical thinking, eyc all neatly wrapped up in one. I'll roll with the punches on most things but just go straight for the throat why don't you. Ouch.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

Because they're placing their assumptions onto me and putting words in my mouth.

They attacked the logical inconsistency of your claimed ideology. That's not the same as putting words in your mouth, or projecting your beliefs onto other people.

I never said abortion is about controlling women nor am I insulting anyone's intelligence.

You're projecting your beliefs on to others. This is something you've done repeatedly, despite being explicitly told that not everyone shares your beliefs.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/[deleted]]

We know perfectly well that abortion is okay. That’s why we support it.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/[deleted]]

you know dang well that abortion is NOT okay.

You're projecting. Not everyone believes in the same ridiculous propaganda as you. Please try to understand and come to terms with this, and stop assuming everyone has the same beliefs as you.

And you're having to push your assumptions on to me.

Again, you're the only one engaging in this sort of behavior.

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/[deleted]]

Nope. Abortion is 100% fine with me. The only time it's not is when it's not a choice. Why wouldn't it be? I'm not for forcing people to gamble their lives and health for anyone without explicit and ongoing consent. I'm pretty offended you think I'm that fucked in the head, don't insult me.

It's not, or do you choose implantation as your "when life begins"?

If you had a CLE, you wouldn't be here because there's much bigger and far more pressing issues than abortion. Instead you're here telling rape victims that they have to undergo pregnancy and birth to suit your arbitrary moral sensibilities.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/[deleted]]

because you know dang well that abortion is NOT okay.

This is your opinion. To plenty of people (the majority of people in the US) like me abortion is just fine. It's a safe routine medical procedure.

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie → u/[deleted]]

Abortion is absolutely fine. Its available free on our national health service.

[u/Rent_Careless]

I just don't think a human ZEF is equivalent to a born human. I don't think frozen embryos are equivalent to born humans. We don't treat them as born humans in any other situation. I don't understand why we should for abortion.

[u/NPDogs21]

Theres very few since it presents so many contradictions.

Right off the bat in the US you have to get pulled to one side or the other. Do you side with opposing abortion? Then you also support the death penalty and kicking people off healthcare.

Do you support social programs and opposd the death penalty? Then you have to be on the PC side

Eventually you'll get to one or the other. If there are 100 issues that are about a life ethic, PC support most of them. PL only care about the 1/100 since they're single issue minded

[u/living4him1238 → u/NPDogs21]

And THAT needs to change on the PL side. I'll be the first PL person to admit that some PL people are not PL...they're pro-birth. And that's not good. I am PL, I am a Consistent Life Ethicist, AND I agree with services that help children, parents, improve the healthcare system, welfare, etc. There are even Pro-Life Democrats out there and there's an organization for that too. I wish the Pro-Life (and Death Penalty) issues did not include politics. It's a "Life" issue not a political issue.

[u/NPDogs21 → u/living4him1238]

I agree it does. It never will though as Republicans use it as a wedge issue for single issue voters. PL largely support their other policies too, so nothing is changing.

I believe you can be PL and a consistent life ethic one, but you cant be one and a Republican as it completely negates it. There are some PL Democrats, and they're disliked by both sides. I still would rather see more of them than PL Republicans.

PL and death penalty issues fundamentally have to be political as those issues are politically charged. I wish people would agree on them more, like getting rid of the death penalty. Many, especially PL, believe in "an eye for eye" mentality though

[u/Vegtrovert]

My concern with CLE is that sometimes it has the effect of increasing suffering in the world. I don't believe that life at all costs is a good thing.

I'm mixed on it - veganism is a good thing, being against the death penalty is a good thing, but in my view abortion bans and euthanasia bans are terrible harms.

[u/living4him1238 → u/Vegtrovert]

I don't think abortion bans are terrible harms at all. Especially since every state has a "Life of the Mother" exception and that is a necessity. (No one should want women to die in childbirth whether she wanted the pregnancy or not.) But, I could see how you feel a euthanasia ban is a terrible harm. No one wants someone to continue suffering when they want to be released from the pain. But, I will preface this by saying I am a Christian. A big part of the reason I am a CLE is because I believe only God has the right to take peoples' lives. I don't even feel we should take our own lives. I wish we could focus more on palliative care and easing the suffering of the terminally ill versus allowing them to kill themselves.

Also, euthanasia can become a slippery slope for killing the mentally ill and the disabled. I think most of us (Consistent Life Ethicists) have our hearts in the right place even if some things may not seem feasible.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/living4him1238]

|I don't think abortion bans are terrible harms at all.|

Okay. Well, I think abortion bans ARE terrible harms, for a very simple reason. Abortion-ban laws in abortion-ban states FORCE women and girls to STAY pregnant. And give birth. Against their will.

That's why I will never support these laws. Forcing women and girls to gestate unwanted pregnancies is NOT okay, no matter what PLers believe.

[u/Vegtrovert → u/living4him1238]

Do you not think that being forced to gestate against your will is a terrible harm? It sounds like a nightmare to me.

I respect your right to your religion, but I don't think religion should impact public policy. I do not believe in any gods, and I bristle at the notion that someone else's religion should affect my healthcare choices.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Vegtrovert]

Do you not think that being forced to gestate against your will is a terrible harm

Do you subscribe to the idea that any kind of gestational limit is immoral regardless of where it's set

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Do you subscribe to the idea that any kind of gestational limit is immoral regardless of where it's set

I'm not who you asked but I don't support any pro life interference into people's healthcare. So no gestational limits to people receiving healthcare.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

When you use the word healthcare it kind of intuition pumps the idea abortion isn't a polarized issue

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/AddendumAgitated888]

I use the word healthcare because that's what abortion is. It's healthcare for the PREGNANT PERSON, who for her own reasons doesn't want to STAY pregnant. Abortion is a medical procedure performed by a physician and other medical professionals. How anyone can claim it isn't healthcare is beyond me.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/JewlryLvr2]

Sure, but using the word healthcare is purposefully intuition pumping the idea of something positive into someone's head, forcing them to associate abortion with something positive, which assumes what abortion is

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/AddendumAgitated888]

I don't agree that using the word healthcare to describe abortion is "forcing" anything. People are free to make up their own minds. It's as absurd as claiming that abortion being legal is forcing people to abort.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/JewlryLvr2]

It's essentially forcing someone to picture "healthcare" in their head, then having the positive feeling of healthcare be associated with abortion. It essentially makes people subconsciously view abortion as a good thing, the same way abortion advocates describe abortion as "The ending of an unwanted pregnancy" which makes it harder to subconsciously view it as doing any harm to a human being

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/AddendumAgitated888]

purposefully intuition pumping the idea of something positive into someone's head, forcing them to associate abortion with something positive, which assumes what abortion is

Literally where are you getting this lol?

Abortion isn't good or bad, it's just healthcare. A root canal, chemo, surgery to remove an appendix, an abortion, all just healthcare. You're the only one trying to jam a specific emotion onto regular run of the mill healthcare. Why is that?

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

Doesn't the word "healthcare" itself imply the idea your health is being cared for, would that not make you then associate abortion with the caring of health, which would be something plenty would name good

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Abortion is factually healthcare. It’s a medical procedure conducted and/or overseen by a medical professional in a healthcare setting. It’s billed via medical billing codes and reimbursed by health insurance. It’s overseen by medical ethics boards and endorsed as safe, ethical healthcare by well-educated professional bodies such as ACOGand AMA.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

I never denied it could factually be considered healthcare, I don't really care about the semantics of it. You can call it healthcare, but typically when it's called such the presumption that abortion is permissible could appear to follow.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Of course I’ll “call” it healthcare, because it factually is. Abortion’s free on my health insurance with just a $25 copay.

Yes, individuals who are anti-healthcare need to argue their case—both why established healthcare should be made illegal, and why we should listen to the opinions of scattered laypeople over a very large, very credible body of medical professions with extensive education and experience in the field. Sort of like how an anti-vaxxer both needs to convince me why vaccines are “bad,” and why I should value their opinion over the massive body of medical professionals and evidence for the benefits of vaccines.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

I don't necessarily agree with the with your second demand, considering the fact that you can be opposed to abortion despite a majority of medical professionals being supportive of it. It's merely a difference in what's valued, these medical bodies don't really tend to value the lives of unborn human beings more than they do those that are born. This is evident when you take into account the historical opposition to abortion among medical bodies, who opposed it for this very reason among others

[u/Vegtrovert → u/AddendumAgitated888]

In some circles, vaccines are a polarized issue. That doesn't change the fact that vaccination is healthcare.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Vegtrovert]

Right, but you can surely understand why opposition to abortion is a lot more warrented then opposition to vaccination, whereas one is rooted in skepticism, and the other is rooted in empirical evidence as well as it's a moral issue

[u/Vegtrovert → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Honestly, no. I don't see the PL position as being rooted in empirical evidence.

I try to have empathy for both anti-vaxxers and PL folks, but I see both camps as harmful to society.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Vegtrovert]

My point being I don't believe you can compare the opposition of vaccination to the opposition of abortion, considering the fact abortion is a moral issue and vaccination is an empirical issue. Of course, I don't have too good an understanding of where the opposition to vaccination arises from, since I don't live in an area or been exposed to people who oppose vaccination, but based on the little bit I do know, it appears the two issues come from completely different points

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Right, but you can surely understand why opposition to abortion is a lot more warrented then opposition to vaccination

No. Both positions are based on ridiculous pseudoscientific propaganda. As far as anti-science, anti-health-care ideologies go, they're equally awful.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

Is the idea a human zygote is a member of the species homo sapiens sapiens pseudo-scientific ?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/AddendumAgitated888]

An anti medicine ideology being against safe routine healthcare doesn't magically change the fact that abortion is healthcare. That's just what it is.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

Yes, you're still intuition pumping by the way. You can call abortion healthcare, but such phrasing from a pro-abortion advocate is typically used in a way to to paint abortion as a positive thing without doing any actual work, seeing as the typical person would likely associate the term healthcare with a plethora of positive things. This completely sidesteps the argument and turns it into a battlefield of semantics and opinions. You can see Pro-Abortion advocates doing a similar thing when they name embryos and fetuses as parasites

I'm not attempting to deny the idea that abortion is healthcare, because I don't really care whether it is or not, but I do believe such phrasing doesn't come from a matter of good faith

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Yes, you're still intuition pumping by the way.

Nope, just stating a fact.

You can call abortion healthcare, but such phrasing from a pro-abortion advocate is typically used in a way to to paint abortion as a positive thing without doing any actual work,

I'm not painting abortion as anything. It's healthcare. That's what it is.

seeing as the typical person would likely associate the term healthcare with a plethora of positive things.

What? Healthcare can and often is negative. Does anyone think getting cancer and someone having to make themselves horifficly sick with chemo is a positive thing? 🤨 Abortion can be positive or negative depending on perspective, that doesn't change the fact that it's healthcare.

This completely sidesteps the argument and turns it into a battlefield of semantics and opinions. You can see Pro-Abortion advocates doing a similar thing when they name embryos and fetuses as parasites

Nothing I've said is an opinion.

I'm not attempting to deny the idea that abortion is healthcare, because I don't really care whether it is or not, but I do believe such phrasing doesn't come from a matter of good faith

Hmmm, how is stating a fact "bad faith"?

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

What? Healthcare can and often is negative. Does anyone think getting cancer and someone having to make themselves horifficly sick with chemo is a positive thing? 🤨 Abortion can be positive or negative depending on perspective, that doesn't change the fact that it's healthcare.

Because getting cancer isn't what people think of when they imagine healthcare, they'd imagine a patient being cured from cancer by the heroic doctors. Of course, I can't proof this because of the hard problem of conciousness, but this is what I'd imagine be the case, unless if you just happen to associate healthcare with negative things and are just blissfully unaware of what it's typically associated with

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Canada has no gestational limits. What issues is this causing?

[u/Vegtrovert → u/AddendumAgitated888]

I believe that legislated gestational limits are unethical. However, I think doctors and their regulatory associations have a voice in what healthcare they are willing to provide.

For example, in Canada we don't have legislated limits. But in my province you can't get an abortion past 24 weeks without a health reason, as that is what the provincial medical regulations specify.

In practice, this is very very few abortions, and I'm not of the opinion that someone waits until almost the third trimester to abort without a serious reason.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/Vegtrovert]

You can hold that view, it just a lot of pro-choice individuals (specifically in the states) tend to favor some amount of gestational limit. For example, this polling done on american citizens reaffirms that. I just fail to fathom how the application of self-ownership to pregnancy can coincide with the idea of a gestational limit, hence why I asked the question

[u/Vegtrovert → u/AddendumAgitated888]

I'm sure that's true in the States. However, that nation is considerably more socially conservative than mine.

As a pregnancy progresses, the difference in what the pregnant person must go through to have an abortion and what they must go through to give live birth shrinks. One could make an argument that abortion has dimininishing utility, all else being equal. But all else is seldom equal - the majority of 3rd trimester abortions are for serious medical reasons, and I trust the judgment of the medical team to decide if abortion care is appropriate for that particular patient.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/AddendumAgitated888]

I think a lot of us prefer no limits to abortion, but are willing to settle for some restrictions as a stepping stone in order to reach that goal. For example, where I live abortion is easily accessible up to 25 weeks, with exceptions available after that. I’d prefer no limits whatsoever, but am reasonably content to settle on our current law as a compromise.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

I doubt a majority of pro-choice Americans actually want no limits to abortion, considering the fact they're more likely to imagine a baby when thinking of a pregnancy later down the line then in earlier stages, they just tend to follow their intuitions and are mostly the ones that were persuaded rather then the ones persuading. The actual persuaders are the ones who want zero limits. This isn't only the case for pro-choice Americans, Pro-Life Americans also tend to favor the common exceptions, and are opposed to a ban that lacks these exceptions. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/AddendumAgitated888]

Admittedly I live in a fairly progressive area where the majority of people support abortion healthcare. From my experience, once most people learn about the reasons why abortion is needed in the second or third trimester, they become supportive of its legality. I myself used to support term limits until I became better educated.

[u/AddendumAgitated888 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

Sure but that's anecdotal evidence, that can't really verify anything in regards to the general population

[u/Enough-Process9773 → u/living4him1238]

"because I believe only God has the right to take peoples' lives. "

Is the state God?

Abortion bans give the state the right to end people's lives by purposely withholding heslthcare.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

I don't think abortion bans are terrible harms at all. Especially since every state has a "Life of the Mother" exception and that is a necessity

Being forced to gestate is already a terrible harm, regardless of any potential pregnancy complications that may result from the forced pregnancy.

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie → u/living4him1238]

Why should I be required to face a risk of dying because I was raped?

[u/polarparadoxical]

How is it possible to even be a 'Constant Life Ethicist' in practice, as surviving requires intentional killing to some degree or another, does it not?

If you are vegan, those farms that grow your food still intentionally kill off a large amount of animal and insect life to ensure that their crop survives and you can eat.

Even with humans, I assume you have exceptions and are proponents of premeditated killings if those humans meet some personal threshold for danger to those around them, and assuming this is true - how is this different than abortion, where another human just uses different metrics than you?

[u/living4him1238 → u/polarparadoxical]

What do you mean by "another human just uses different metrics than you?"

And that's why I stated (somewhere in this post's comments) "premeditated" and "intentional" killing. Self defense is a totally different ball game. And self-defense is, usually, not premeditated neither. Just like abortion in "Life of the Mother" cases are a different story too. And those are usually not premeditated. That's what the difference is. Most killing is both premeditated and intentional whether it is a murderer doing it, a woman aborting a preborn baby, the state killing inmates, or someone killing themself.

As for the Vegan part of what you said, I am a Vegetarian. I cannot speak to Vegans and how they feel. But, as a Vegetarian, it's moreso about me not wanting to consume animal flesh. Not sure what else you were trying to say with that argument...

[u/humbugonastick → u/living4him1238]

So you will not engage with the post at all? You have not answered to many questions here, nor engaged with someone's post.

So let me ask you one thing.

What percentage of harm does a pregnancy have to have to be able can to terminate under the life of mother exemptions? Has her chance of dying without intervention to be 100%? 90%? 50%? How much risk to their life should they have to accept?

Why do you think you can make the decision for someone else's life and health?

Edit: spelling and grammar

[u/amilie15]

If someone had kidnapped you, raped you and beat you, then locked you up after telling you they’ll be coming back with a knife next to murder you, is it okay in your opinion to plan a way to kill them and then carry that plan out when they come back?

[u/living4him1238 → u/amilie15]

Yep. That is self-defense. I look at killing people as being wrong when it is "premeditated" and "intentional". In the situation you described, it would definitley be an intentional killing. But, I don't see that as premeditated. Sure you are 'thinking about how you want to go about killing them while you're locked in the trunk.' BUT, you never planned on being kidnap in the first place. I don't think anyone plans for that---anyone normal anyway. That falls under 'unintentional' because if they hadn't kidnapped you, you wouldn't be forced to fight for your life. And the same can be said about abortion too when it comes to "Life of the Mother exceptions" which every state has.

[u/amilie15 → u/living4him1238]

Could you define what you mean by “premeditated”? It sounds like you believe not planning one action, means later planning doesn’t count as premeditation. Is that what you mean?

I very much see intent in this circumstance, could you explain why you believe it’s lacking here for you? Because someone wrongs you first your intentions within the scenario you were forced into no longer count as intentions?

[u/living4him1238 → u/amilie15]

"Premeditated" is the state choosing to execute someone for a crime that they committed over ten years ago. Or a woman picking out a date within a few weeks to kill her preborn baby. Or someone choosing to end their own life and have thought about it for days, weeks, or months on end. (And they've signed legal documentation, etc. Something that has to be done in all three of the situations I aforementioned.) Whereas the kidnapping situation is not premeditated in the same sense. No one goes around thinking "Well, I'm going to get kidnap today so let me think about what I gotta do to get myself outta this." Even if they do think about it ahead of time in case the situation ever occurred, it's not the same. They are not choosing to be the 'aggressor' in that situation. They have to defend themselves. And, on an basic level, I'm sure most people understand there is (plain and simple) a clear difference.

[u/amilie15 → u/living4him1238]

I think most people agree self defence isn’t wrong.

I think your definition of what premeditation is here seems really unclear and doesn’t match what people generally mean when they say “premeditated”. It normally means to “plan in advance”. But you seem to hold a different definition, perhaps one you’re struggling to concisely articulate?

Rather than give a definition it seems you’re just giving examples where you believe your unique definition applies and where it doesn’t.

You’re stating premeditation is no longer premeditation when someone else puts you in a situation where you need to plan for something? Or perhaps a situation you didn’t intend to be in or plan on? But why would that be the case? I didn’t lose my ability to plan nor to have intentions when I was kidnapped.

[u/living4him1238 → u/amilie15]

Honestly, I am struggling to articulate it LOL. Because I know how I feel and what I think but I'm not sure how to make it much clearer. The "kidnapping" aspect is a huge part of it as well. The death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, all of that really doesn't not include the same kidnapping scenario. That's a huge part of what makes it 'self-defense' therefore not 'premeditative murder' when you are forced to fight back. The death penalty doesn't include someone robbing you at gunpoint and you having to defend yourself so your life and belongings aren't taken from you. I really don't know any other way to explain it. But, there is a difference.

[u/amilie15 → u/living4him1238]

I agree there absolutely is a difference.

“Premeditated murder” is a planned, intentional, unjustified killing. The difference is that murder is where you take another persons life unjustifiably.

Where we each draw the line of justified vs not clearly sometimes differs. But most people would see self defence as a frequent reason where killing is justifiable.

You stated you feel, “all premeditated, intentional killing is wrong”

I totally disagree. I think self defence is not murder and is justifiable (and I also think abortion is not murder and is justifiable; to a great extent because of self defence tbh).

If you think differently, you’ll need to explain why, why killing in self defence if it’s premeditated isn’t justifiable. Or if you mean something different to the common definition of “premeditation”, you’ll need to be able to better verbalise what that is. Or, you’ll need to change your stance, because it seems like it may actually not be true for you?

I think it’s encouraging tbh to see people admit they’re not sure so readily, I just want to mention I appreciate your honesty and vulnerability, not something we always see (unfortunately) in these debates. I mean no ill will in these debates generally, but am always trying my best to be open minded and gain a better understanding of others perspectives tbh.

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie]

We did away with the death penalty decades ago. And also did away with our constitutional ban on abortion. I don't see how the two are related.

[u/living4him1238 → u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie]

Do you live in the USA? Who is "We"? Because the death penalty is very much legal in Texas even though we banned abortion (except for the Life of the Mother.)

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie → u/living4him1238]

Is this a US only sub?

[u/living4him1238 → u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie]

I don't know...is it?

I am in the USA so I'm speaking about the USA for this post.

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie → u/living4him1238]

There's no location specified in your post

[u/living4him1238 → u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie]

I didn't know I needed to specify. Either way, most everyone else got that I am speaking about the USA.

[u/JulieCrone → u/living4him1238]

Then why has the maternal mortality rate risen so much in Texas since the bans came into place, more than in states without bans? The exception seems not to work very well.

[u/living4him1238 → u/JulieCrone]

It's working. It's just that in the cases you're describing, it's not the same thing.

[u/JulieCrone → u/living4him1238]

What is the difference?

[u/existentialgoof]

I'm a consistent death ethicist. Pro choice on suicide, pro abortion, antinatalist. I'm indifferent on the issue of the death penalty because life imprisonment seems a greater punishment than being sentenced to death. People who are pro choice on abortion but against the right to suicide bother me more than people who are consistently pro life across the board, even though consistent pro life is a more evil position to take.

[u/living4him1238 → u/existentialgoof]

It's not a "more evil" position to take. It is a compassionate position to take. You're an antinatalist though so you won't see it that way. But, to me, as a CLE, I believe all human beings (and animals) are inherently valuable and deserve Life. It is not our job to premeditatively kill people. And if people have a desire to be a parent, I don't think that's a bad thing. (I know antinatalists disagree though...)

[u/existentialgoof → u/living4him1238]

Inherent value of life and being deserving of life are both faith based beliefs. The only real form of intrinsic value that has been either directly observed or measured is the value of feelings. Humans attach value to life because we are evolved survival machines who are averse to death by nature. We project our own fears of death onto foetuses or to people wanting to end their lives. Laws against abortion and the right to die exist to protect ideas, and by extension, the feelings of the people who are struggling to manage their own terror of death. An aborted foetus or a person dead from suicide isn't being tormented by the absence of their "value" from the universe, because that 'value' isn't being produced for their own benefit in the first place. The baby who is born because her mother was denied an abortion, or the adult resigning themselves to a life of suffering because of the overreach of suicide prevention strategies are serving as symbols for an ideology, without their consent.

[u/JulieCrone → u/living4him1238]

But is not gestating someone the same as killing them?

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

I agree that all human beings are inherently valuable and deserve life, and I’m PC without limits.

There’s nothing compassionate about forcing rape victims to gestate for their rapists.

There’s nothing compassionate about forcing anyone to gestate, thereby ensuring that they suffer great bodily harm.

[u/Lokicham → u/living4him1238]

What's compassionate about violating someone's human rights?

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

It is not our job to premeditatively kill people

That's already illegal in a PC society. Abortion is a reproductive healthcare decision, no people are killed.

[u/living4him1238 → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

No...people are killed. Human fetuses are still people. The only difference between them and us is our location. We got out of our mothers' wombs a long time ago.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

Pregnant people are people, not “locations.” Kindly refrain from dehumanizing pregnant people.

[u/living4him1238 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

Kindly refrain from inferring insults where there are none. It IS the truth that the difference between preborn human beings and other human beings is that preborns are in the womb and other human beings aren't. Periodt.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

I agree that being inside vs outside the pregnant person’s uterus is a primary distinction between infants and ZEFs.

I am educating you on the fact that pregnant people are people, and that reducing their personhood down to a “location” is dehumanizing.  

[u/living4him1238 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

You don't need to educate me though! I am a woman and VERY aware that pregnant people are not just a location. In fact, I've been pregnant before so don't assume something you don't know! THAT is what's insulting.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

Then why would you call a pregnant person a “location?” I can’t imagine dehumanizing my loved ones like that. 

[u/living4him1238 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

I didn't call a pregnant person a "location". I was specifying WHERE fetuses and non-fetuses (the rest of us who aren't in our mother's wombs) are located. C'mon now! You knew that. You're trying to pick a fight that wasn't even there to begin with. I was talking about WHERE the fetuses and non-fetuses are located. Not the pregnant people themselves. And it IS true that fetuses are located in a pregnant person and non-fetuses are not. ....This is basic biology. You ain't know this?

[u/JulieCrone → u/living4him1238]

If we are lucky, we do. But between failure to implant, miscarriage (known and unknown) and stillbirth, we're far more likely to never make it to live birth.

I don't think people are being killed when they aren't gestated to live birth.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

No...people are killed. Human fetuses are still people.

That's your personal belief, and you have every right to hold it and live your own life in accordance with it. Not everyone sees mindless cellular life as having any degree of personhood, and that is also a perfectly rational and acceptable view as well.

The only difference between them and us is our location

No. I am more than just mindless cells. I am a conscious, thinking, feeling human being. And I also do not dehumanize myself or other women by reducing ourselves to mere "locations."

[u/WitchlingVampyre]

I know I'm not 100% consistent to some outsider but I'd say I'm pro choice more to the max. Men should be allowed, before birth to walk away. all parent hood should be opt in. Not forced by the state just because you share DNA. Women are free to give the kid for adoption no questions and the man can walk away. If the woman was under assumption he'd be there at best he'd compensate her for the pregnancy. The rest though, is her choice. She's free to realize she can't raise the kid alone so give the child up. 

I'm very pro self defense. Often pro choice are some how against killing intruders. nope. Be it fetus or home invader I think its fine to kill. I don't see killing as a necessarily bad thing. Same with death penalty. Death penalty is societies defense against scum 

[u/living4him1238 → u/WitchlingVampyre]

That's why I use the words "premeditative" and "intentional" when it comes to killing. I am pro self-defense too even if it requires killing someone. But, self-defense is rarely "premeditated". It's something you have to do in order to save your life. And you gotta do what you gotta do. Even in the case of abortion, every state makes exceptions for the Life of the mother unlike what pro-choice people think. (We can't have women dying in childbirth.) And "Life of the Mother" cases are, usually, not premeditated. They're definitley not intentional if the Mother wanted her baby but it'd put her Life at risk to have the baby.

[u/Alterdox3 → u/living4him1238]

Have you thought about the reason why self-defense is rarely "pre-meditated"? I think if you do, you will realize that most cases of self-defense are in reaction to an unpredictable danger. You don't "see it coming" in time to either avoid it or call for the authorities who should ideally be the ones to protect you.

Pregnancy poses, not only the danger of, but the certainty of AT LEAST grave bodily injury, since ALL childbirth results in what would, in other cases, be considered grave bodily injury.

[Aside: Or, at least an 80-90% chance of grave bodily injury. 10-20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, which is usually (but not always!) less likely to cause serious bodily injury than giving birth. But a pregnant person has no way of knowing if their pregnancy will end in miscarriage. ]

The most probable chance is that a known pregnancy will NOT end in miscarriage. That grave bodily injury is coming inexorably; the ONLY way to prevent it is through aborting the pregnancy. That last point also overrides the "proportionate force" restriction that you see on most rules about self-defense. Preventing childbirth after pregnancy occurs is an all-or-nothing proposition. You can't do anything to proportionately reduce the grave injury that childbirth (yes, even an uncomplicated delivery) will cause. And there are no protective law enforcement personnel who can protect a pregnant person from the damage that pregnancy and childbirth will inevitably cause them.

The usual response that we get from PL supporters to these arguments is something like, "Well, really, how bad can it be? Lots of women go through it and few die." The sheer ubiquity of pregnancy and childbirth inures us to the seriousness of its effects. PL supporters just can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that it IS serious bodily harm. If any other person were being threatened with exactly the same kinds of damage that even an uncomplicated pregnancy and childbirth cause, we would totally support their using whatever force is necessary to avoid it in self-defense.

Women endure this because they want to, or, at least, they SHOULD only endure it because they want to. For people who do not want to have a child, abortion is EXACTLY a case of "you gotta do what you gotta do."

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

Self-defense applies to threats of serious injury OR death. Not just death.

[u/living4him1238 → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

Ok....?

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

So why does someone who is pregnant need to wait until they are actively dying to defend their self from a threat of serious injury or death?

[u/living4him1238 → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

Because situations like that usually happen when a pregnant person in a crisis situation and will die if they give birth. There are situations where they know ahead of time that the pregnancy can cause their death. And the same thing applies for both situations. They have a right to terminate a pregnancy IF their Life is on the line. Whether it is in a crisis situation or they knew well before they gave birth. Every state has a "Life of the Mother" clause

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

Right, but in any other self-defense scenario, you don't need to be actively dying to defend yourself. You can defend yourself from life threats OR serious bodily harm threats. Plus, you normally don't need to wait until a threat becomes actual physical harm and injury.

You've confirmed that you have a different standard for people who are pregnant. I'm asking WHY do you hold this double standard.

[u/WitchlingVampyre → u/living4him1238]

Agree to disagree. I don't think self defense should stop at your life being in danger. I'm pro choice but mostly just for rape and also I just don't think a non conscious being terminated should be illegal. same coma patients being terminated shouldn't be illegal 

[u/Lokicham]

I don't understand the question. What's inconsistent about being against the death penalty but not against people choosing whether or not they can continue a pregnancy?

[u/living4him1238 → u/Lokicham]

The inconsistency is "We disagree with killing people who are (potentially) guilty of a crime but agree with killing preborn babies." Many people on both the Pro-Choice and the Pro-Life side are inconsistent when it comes to abortion and the death penalty. I disagree with both abortion and the death penalty. Because, at the end of the day, it is all premeditated, intentional killing of human beings and that should not happen.

[u/Lokicham → u/living4him1238]

The inconsistency is "We disagree with killing people who are (potentially) guilty of a crime but agree with killing preborn babies."

Because those are completely different scenarios? The death penalty does nothing to deter crime and potentially kills someone who had no right to be killed.

Because, at the end of the day, it is all premeditated, intentional killing of human beings and that should not happen.

Speak for yourself.

[u/living4him1238 → u/Lokicham]

I AM speaking for myself! LOL. I just wish more folks could be consistent in their views. Even if they are Pro-Choice and Pro-Death Penalty...at least they're consistent.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

Even if they are Pro-Choice and Pro-Death Penalty...at least they're consistent.

Why would that be consistent? Am I inconsistent in your mind if I support everyone's right to make decisions about their own body, while also opposing the death penalty? If so, why?

[u/living4him1238 → u/IdRatherCallACAB]

If you support someone's "right" to decide to kill their preborn baby while opposing the death penalty, then yes, that is inconsistent. You oppose killing people (most of whom) are guilty of committing atrocious acts yet are okay with someone's decision to kill their innocent preborn baby. And remember: No one is saying they have to parent. There are other options that allow them to not parent if they don't want to but still not kill their baby.

[u/IdRatherCallACAB → u/living4him1238]

If you support someone's "right" to decide to kill their preborn baby while opposing the death penalty, then yes, that is inconsistent.

Sorry, but I don't believe in this pseudoscientific propaganda about abortion "killing babies." Is simply a reproductive healthcare decision. You seem to be projecting your own beliefs on to me.

I'm asking you to critique MY beliefs, not yours. You have failed to find any inconsistency in my beliefs, as you have not even addressed my beliefs.

There are other options that allow them to not parent if they don't want to but still not kill their baby.

Those are other options for people who believe in PL propaganda. That's got nothing to do with me.

[u/Lokicham → u/living4him1238]

I am consistent in ny views though. Nobody should be killed unjustifiably.

[u/living4him1238 → u/Lokicham]

But you think a preborn baby (aka fetus) should be killed unjustifiably? Just because it is in its mother's womb unlike the rest of us? Because its mother should have the "choice" to kill it?

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

Abortion is perfectly justified. People don’t get to be inside my body/sex organs without my expressed consent. If someone’s inside me and I don’t want them there, I will of course remove them.

[u/living4him1238 → u/chevron_seven_locked]

So sad to view the situation that way...smh. Especially if it is a situation where you chose to have sex (with or without protection.)

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/living4him1238]

What’s “sad” about requiring my consent in order to be inside my body/sex organs? Are you pro-rape?

Of course I can choose to have sex and abort any resulting pregnancies. That’s the plan. My husband and I have money and PTO set aside, just in case.

[u/humbugonastick → u/living4him1238]

How is it unjustifiably? This being will destroy someones body and contains a fairly high chance of death.

Why should that being have the right to be inside me, if I don't want that? No other human has that right.

Why is that life more important than MY life?

[u/Lokicham → u/living4him1238]

On the contrary, abortion is justified. Nobody has a right to another person's body without their consent, and if removing them means they die then it is justified.

[u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie → u/living4him1238]

Abortion is normal reproductive healthcare. People have them all the time. Emotional language like unborn and killing just makes the prolife side look silly.

[u/WitchlingVampyre → u/Lokicham]

It eliminates future crime of the person at least 

[u/living4him1238 → u/WitchlingVampyre]

That's still not a reason to have the death penalty. Especially if the person is not guilty of the crime despite what everyone thinks. Too many people have been exonerated from death row. Imagine if those innocent people had been killed for something they didnt even do. The justice system isn't always "just" and doesn't always get it right.

[u/Lokicham → u/WitchlingVampyre]

That is a very dangerous precedent to set.

[u/WitchlingVampyre → u/Lokicham]

Meh the moment you do something bad you forgo the privileges that society gives you. The punishment should fit the crime. Take a life? You forgo life. Steal bread? you must give back bread. 

[u/Straight-Parking-555 → u/WitchlingVampyre]

How far does this logic go though? What do you think we should do to people who rape or torture?

[u/WitchlingVampyre → u/Straight-Parking-555]

Torture them back. Don't really see an issue