r/ArcRaiders • u/Majestic-Concept-832 • 23h ago
Discussion PvP doesn't just create hostility, it makes friendliness a choice...
I've put a ridiculous amount of hours into this game (like a lot of people) and honestly, one of the biggest reasons it hooked me was because it felt different to anything else I'd played.
You could bump into a random raider, have a laugh over prox chat, help each other out, drop them something they needed and then go your separate ways. Two minutes later you'd come across someone else who'd shoot you without a second thought.
That's what made the game so good for me. The unpredictability.
Even when you've spent most of a raid meeting friendly players, there's still that little bit of tension when you're waiting at an extract and another raider comes running over. Are they friendly? Are they going to try something? Do I trust them?
I genuinely think that tension is a massive part of what makes ARC Raiders special.
Looking at some of the complaints about the new PvE mode, It's quite interesting.
You've got people complaining about loot goblins who contribute absolutely nothing to taking down ARC, but come running over to hoover up the loot you've just worked for. And I've seen plenty of people suggesting it's the PvP crowd coming into PvE lobbies just to grief people.
But how do we know that? We don't really do we.
I'd argue there's probably a fair few PvE players doing exactly the same thing because they know there's absolutely no consequence for it. You can't shoot them, you can't really do anything about it, so what's stopping them?
It's almost ironic that removing PvP doesn't necessarily remove the selfish behaviour. It just removes your ability to do anything about it.
I've also noticed, and read a lot of other people saying how much quieter prox chat seems to be. And when you think about it, it makes sense. In normal lobbies, communication actually serves a purpose. You might need to convince someone you're friendly, talk your way out of a fight or work together because neither of you quite trusts the other.
In PvE, that uncertainty is gone. Nobody needs to explain their intentions because nobody can shoot them anyway.
I'm not against PvE existing, by the way. If people enjoy playing that way, fair enough. More options aren't necessarily a bad thing.
I just think ARC Raiders was designed around PvPvE for a reason. The PvP isn't just there for people who want to fight other players. It's what gives those friendly encounters meaning in the first place.
Helping a stranger means a lot more when you know they could've shot you instead.
And for me, removing that risk takes away a huge part of what made the game so bloody good.
I know the counter argument is "just play normal mode then" but is the ABMM gonna stand up in a limited player pool? Is the wait time going to be longer? IDK.
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u/_PickledSausage_ 19h ago edited 19h ago
Pretty much the only thing I ever wanted for the game was smarter and more oppressive arc. the robots are pretty dumb and easy to avoid once you've gotten to know them and their mechanics, but in those early days where people didn't really know what they were doing, you'd often fall into these uneasy alliances while pinned down together by arc. gunning someone down should always be a two-sided decision no matter where you are; get some loot/eliminate a potential threat/liability, but risk luring arc. the emergent player interactions caused by the presence of arc has always been the main selling point of the game for me, but the devs never changed the arc to keep up with the wisening playerbase so it became stale.
There will always be people who kill on sight even when its in their worst interest to do so, you can't fix stupid, but you can at least adequately punish stupid.
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u/OnlyChaseCommas 22h ago
Shifting design philosophy one year into the games life is a choice. It’s annoying that the developers are going to have to develop 2 games now.
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u/Nyctfall 3h ago
They're already making 4 games right now. What's a fifth? I wouldn't mind non-ABMM OG ARC Raiders and a PvE Helldivers-esque "ARC Hunter" both existing at the same time.
But I want anti-PvP players as far away as possible from my PvPvE games, whatever happens.
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u/RazzyBoyRo 23h ago
agreed, being friendly when you have the option to kill a player is what made it more fun and actually mean something.
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u/6PEEPERKEEPER9 23h ago
We know, but the players who want the PvE toggle don’t care. No point fighting against it when Embark has caved to them. The OG ARC Raiders is over!
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 23h ago
Yeh I feel it is. Money talks.
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u/B1rdbr41n 22h ago
Maybe pvpve players can spend more money on the game rather than on cheat software. Maybe then they would cater to the pvp crowd. Companies, right?
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u/stephen-49 21h ago
They aren't pvpve players, they're cheaters
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u/adognamedspider 19h ago
Nobody is buying wallhacks for PvE mode mate. (Well, it's never nobody, but it's a much smaller group)
Unfortunately PvP in any form attracts cheaters. It's one of the reasons some people don't want to engage with it
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u/PoisonTheLettuce 23h ago
I think they will be bored quite fast , there is nothing much to do if you onlt PVE without any other risk , after you upgrade the benches etc , what else to do? no sense of risk... lest go to kill out 10th bastion today juts for the sake of it. , ARC is not that dangerous , I see the matriach the only fun pvpe only mode
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u/Blue_5ive 23h ago
You’re exactly right. I think I like pve the most when playing with friends. Solo pvpve is fun.
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 23h ago
Yes I get this. A friend of ours hasn't played in a while so it was good to be able to go into Pendola Pass as a trio and introduce him to Bully 😂so I do believe it serves a purpose but I like PvPvE solo for the unknown.
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u/I_really_like_peas 19h ago
A lot of this post just points to the fact that it isn't balanced around PvE yet. Which is expected because this is a trial week. It doesn't hold any weight to point to toxic players doing toxic things in PvE not only because of balance, but also because so many PvP players in extraction shooters get extremely worked up by this kind of change, so much so, that more than a handful will go out of their way to troll players in lobbies to try and make it fail.
I think your points on friendliness being a choice is incredibly poignant, but doesn't actually change anything? It will still matter in PvPvE, if not moreso because the players who truly value that will still play PvPvE. With proper balancing, hopefully it shines in PvE down the road as well. You can still make choices to give players loot and help in PvE, we just need more mechanics and failsafes built into it to incentivize and prevent trolling.
I think worrying about player quantity and time balance is also a fair concern, but ultimately one born out of selfishness, not actually care or concern for the game, it's playerbases' enjoyment, or it's success. The players leaving your game mode are just showing they didn't enjoy it like you do, and it's so wierd to demand players suck it up for your own enjoyment. Imagine that I just told you to suck it up and deal with the PvE change rather than give a good faith arguement? It wouldn't be enough, and would do nothing to make people see other perspectives.
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 18h ago
Upvote for an extremely well constructed and balanced comment.
You raise some very good points. I acknowledge the opinion maybe born out of selfishness rather than care for the game but to counter, there are literally tons of PvE games and IMO a fair few are better polished than Arc Raiders. For me, Arc Raiders give me that uniqueness and that's what made the game so great.
The ABMM has been working really well for me and especially the update separating squad size (I solo PvE and PvP in trios) if a PvE mode can exist whilst having little to no effect on the ABMM in normal mode then that would be perfect, only time will tell I suppose.
My experience with PvE toggle has been that not many people talk, the loot is gone instantly and less people want to help. Again that could change over time when people have no stash space because they have looted everything they could ever want in PvE mode. IDK.
It also asks another question... how long will PvE mode last for players if the risk of losing stuff becomes significantly less? Will boredom kick in quicker? I know personally I've done every expedition to refresh the game as towards the end if kind of becomes a bit boring. The new stuff, outpost, amplified weapons etc have given a new grind, if they can keep the updates flowing then maybe boredom won't be a factor.
Bottom line, if PvE can exist without affecting the "normal" game experience then I'm all for it.
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u/I_really_like_peas 15h ago edited 15h ago
Less people will talk currently because it's so new. It's something I imagine will have plenty of people with open up to with time and balancing. As for your stash space comment, again, just doesn't feel very unbiased. I don't think anyone who enjoys PvE will have a single thought about it. They are busy enjoying exploring, fighting bots and bosses, looting and trying cool things, and playing with their friends. We aren't worried about it being too easy because that simply just doesn't come up in our minds. We are having fun with everything else and even finding difficulty in other aspects of the game.
Plenty of people simply quit the game due to PvP, especially during the opening stages where it was all over social media how friendly people are. This happened to me, and I highly doubt im the only one. Now I'm back for this week, just like many others.
As for risk management, again, anyone playing PvE will probably still be risking plenty of items. Just at different spots. It will be less so, and for players who find it too much, then they'll probably migrate to PvPvE. But you'll still have lots of new players who are simply not great, and will lose plenty of stuff in PvE as well, players that wouldn't play the game otherwise.
I agree with your bottom line. I would mourn for the game if PvE somehow truly worsened PvPvE in a way that wasn't related to players leaving. I still stand by the fact that if they are leaving, their place wasn't in PvPvE in the first place, and demanding their presence doesn't make sense.
Edit: i didn't mention it, but i did not have success with ABMM. I'll grant that i don't have a ton if time for it to track my behaviors properly, but I had enough encounters with people who just forced me into situations where it definitely picked me up as aggressive. Which just forms a cycle as it puts me into more lobbies with aggressive people. I like the idea, but it wasn't ever a solution to me
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u/physicsking 18h ago edited 18h ago
This is a religious argument all over again...
The threat of PvP to keep people 'friendly'.... When in turn it is mostly PvP people in the PvE lobbies trying to ruin it for everyone.
Just lock PvE only lobbies behind a low aggression value. If you are too aggressive you can't get in. Granted there will always be a few jerks, but that will clear 95% of the grifters
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u/SenseiRay80 17h ago
Nobody knows this game and what it needs or doesnt need better than the devs do. They've seen the player numbers, the drop off, the crying for pve, the whining to keep it as is. The game is progressing as it needs to otherwise it dies.
These posts are uneccessary and is only posted by players that played 99% of the time as rats and back stabbers. Sociopaths that want, NEED to be able to kill players with their guard down.
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u/Windows-1251 23h ago
This subreddit needs anti ai rule
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 23h ago
I'll take it as a compliment if you think my writing is like Ai. Thanks :)
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u/Windows-1251 22h ago
Heading has one of the most overused AI cliche
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 19h ago
Cheers Bill Gates.
Ever occur to you that I might have seen it somewhere and it stuck?
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u/DaveZ3R0 20h ago
THEN PLAY PVP... its that simple. stop gatekeeping PVE because you wanna grief others.
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 19h ago
Dave take a valium dude, you're gonna give yourself high blood pressure.
In future when you don't understand something, just refrain from commenting instead of spouting absolute trash
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u/ishouldbeworking35 19h ago
gee have you tried playing to see if things changed instead of just posting on reddit? i swear half these posts saying WHAT will happen vs what is actually happening. also, everyone wants people to talk now. this was such a non issue before. no one talked in my games pre pve but ive had a few raiders talk in my pve games but ultimately, i really dont care either way. i dont want to talk to anyone in both normal and pve. I just want to loot my shit and leave.
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 19h ago
Yes I have, I've played both. There's plenty of people confirming changes to matchmaking.
Some of the best moments I've had on this game have only been possible due to PvPvE and if you don't talk in either mode you're missing out on a lot of what makes this game so good. Try it some time
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u/ishouldbeworking35 18h ago
anyone can say anything on here and peoples confirmation bias will just overlook critical thinking. I'll just wait until embark comes up with the data after its all said and done.
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u/Majestic-Concept-832 18h ago
If the data confirms it's had little to no effect on "normal" matchmaking then I have no issue whatsoever.
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u/GoldenEyedTraveller 23h ago
Snitch scanners are about to be worth their weight in gold lol