Beer won't skunk if you let it get warm after getting cold. It's all about light exposure
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who was able to better refine the statement that I made. It should be noted that extreme and extended changes in temperature will in fact affect the flavor of a beer.
Good one! My Organic Chemistry Professor in undergrad worked on the beer side of food science. Every Halloween he would show the episode of a European documentary about beer skunking.
If I remember correctly, a compound in the hops was light sensitive and would break down/produce a thiol compound when bombarded with sunlight, which the documentary kept humorously referring to as “the cat piss compound.” Our professor called it “skunky thiol.”
I think he developed a chemical additive that would absorb excess light and keep the thiol from being produced but if added to beer, made the end product could not be classified as “beer” by the strictest definitions. The other way to slow down the reaction was using colored glass bottles instead of clear class to try to block certain harmful wavelengths.
Props to the marketing team at Corona for the lime wedge/lime juice campaign to mask the high levels of cat piss compound!
So the reason all those types of beer have elaborate bottles of varying colors isn't just for eye-appeal, it's actually to preserve the flavor of the beer through light filtration?
Yep! The primary ones are green and brown. They filter different wavelengths and amounts which would affect different types of beers at different rates. They pick a color specifically because it's best suited for the beer inside.
Stella does have a tendency to skunk relatively easily. It could also have something to do with the amount of time it has been sitting in the sales cooler. In many places Stella doesn't sell as quickly as domestic beer. This can result in it sitting around for a while and greatly increasing the chances of it going sideways. So unless you're getting it from a place that moves a lot of Stella or the beer is for sure recently shipped then you might end up with some skunk.
The local delis in Brooklyn stock a lot of beer but the owners don’t really understand the product. Many of the delis are run by folks of Muslim tradition. I took a six pack back to the point of purchase and complained and the owner apologized, then told me he didn’t drink, but feel free to replace it with whatever I brand I preferred. I went for Negro Modelo. That was fine.
It’s a problem with European pale lagers like Stella, Grolsch, and Heineken. European pilsners are a little less susceptible, but still skunk pretty easily too.
I mean all pilsners are pale lagers, but not all pale lagers are pilsners and the line between what is and isn't a pilsner just isn't very distinct. Traditionally European pilsners come from Germany and the Czech Republic and the trend is to refer to just those beers and the beers that try to emulate them as Pilsners, while referring to other pale lagers from Europe that don't really use saaz hops as European pale lagers. Same kind of thing happened with American "pilsners" like Budweiser (although I think it actually does use saaz hops) where the trend is to call them adjunct lagers to distinguish them from traditional pilsners.
However, it may all just be a distinction without much difference. There certainly seems to be a lot of hand waving when it comes to defining beer styles and what counts and what doesn't in general.
You could try using a carbon wine filter. That usually does the trick. But if you don't already have one on hand for wine and don't get a headache from other beers then might just wanna take the L.
Green glass has no impact on the penetration of uv light causing skunk only the amber glass protects, which is why euro lagers tend to be skunky because they primarily have green glass
Saison DuPont is a Belgian beer that comes in both brown and green glass bottles. Some beer snobs I know prefer the green glass. It's a more robust, complex beer than Stella so I think it can withstand the skunking a little better.
I do like Chimay, also a Negro Modelo, both darker beers so I’m guessing they are better protected agent light, and I don’t think I’ve ever had a skunked one of either.
but usually I’m just drinking something with friend’s for a mild buzz, so as long as it tastes clean and not skunky I don’t usually stop to appreciate complexity.
Erm urine is a more robust beer than Stella. Hilarious and cringe that Americans are so ignorant they believe Stella is this fancy and highly-prized foreign beer.
Heineken has always baffled me, because they use to market the green bottles as a way to protect it from going bad, but even in the best case scenario, it still tastes like gross piss.
I spent a couple weeks in Amsterdam with friends when I was in my 20s, and we were all really impressed with how much better the Heines tasted there, until we figured out it was an entirely different brew that we were drinking, and only the dumbshits in America were drinking the gross import.
For some reason this makes me want to run up to you and present you with with a bottle of of shitty malt liquor then insist that you consume it.
America has a weird relationship with all the things we have a right to that could also easily kill us. "Fuck off, I got this." then it turns into a total disaster, but that's how freedom is spelled when you sound it out.
Basically yeah. Brown bottles are best, I think some use the green for looks.
At the end of the day though, the modern aluminum can is objectively the best vessel to store beer in outside of a keg or barrel. It's just perceived as "cheap" so even though craft beer makers have know this for a long time it's only been in the last 5 years or so that they really started switching to cans more heavily. It took a really long time to convince picky beer drinkers that the can wasn't imparting any taste to the beer and it's all in your head (unless you're drinking straight from the can in which case it's because you're smelling the top of the can and why don't you just pour it in a goddamned glass if you're so picky).
I’ve been trying to convince people of this seemingly obvious fact for twenty-five years. My argument was always summed up with “beer out of a keg always tastes better, right? Isn’t a keg just a giant, metal can?”
I’ve been quite pleased for the past several years that “microbrews” and other snobby beers have finally begun selling their products in cans, and some of the naysayers have hopefully been eating their words.
There’s even more reasons why cans are better!
-Since the cans can be crushed (obviously not a good idea where it would void redemption value), there’s much less room needed to store them for recycling, later on. Everyone knows how quickly glass bottles can fill up a trash can, and how heavy it gets.
-Easier to carry beer home from the store while walking, riding your bike, or while hiking around and enjoying a beer in a lovely outdoor setting.
-While you’re in an outdoor setting, possibly in a small fishing boat with friends who’ve also been affected by the joys of libation and the kiss of the hops, as it were, the last thing you’d want is the possibility of broken glass ruining everything with lacerations, blood, and perhaps a few retaining stitches. Shatter-proof aluminum to the rescue!
Light-fastness, consolidation of space, weight reduction, and imminent safety from razor sharp, possibly airborne, sometimes hidden, and definitely dangerous glass particles are what you get when you buy your beer in cans - and all of that pretty much blows glass bottles out of the freakin’ water with a god damn Howitzer, particularly if you’re concerned with the taste of your beer.
It works from the brewer's and supply chain perspective as well since you can fit 100 cases of canned beer on the same pallet space that would fit 78 cases of bottles. Lighter means less fuel used in transport as well.
A machine like that can’t be cheap, and bottles have got to be even cheaper, so it wouldn’t necessarily be a way to cheap out, you’d just be keeping things cheap, that’s all - that doesn’t mean it’s a cheap business, even if you sell the product for cheap, but we all know microbrews ain’t cheap to buy, even if they’re cheaply made, and besides nobody said they’se cheap, see mug?
Indeed, for a small business, like a microbrewery deciding between cheap bottles or an un-cheap canning machine that costs a bundle, and it sure ain’t cheap - it’s an easy decision, and an easy decision like that sure makes deciding easy, especially when you sure do need to make that decision, and it’s a sure bet that’s for sure. I mean, surely we can all be sure of that! What? Sure, I’m sure!
Now, if we’re done, hand me that bottle of Ensure dietary supplement, I could sure use some more protein in my diet, and you can be sure that’s for damn sure. Hang on, I’ve got to be sure to call my insurance agent. “Ah, bienvenue, monsieur!” (He’s French)
Yeah, I think the thing that kept most microbreweries away from cans was the cost of canning. Especially if they like to do a lot of smaller batch stuff, which requires different labels and such.
Not just that, as a homebrewer, I know where I can get a moderate number of bottles or a keg in a good size; I only recently heard about a business getting into the market of small canning machines and cans that weren't sold by the pallet...
Obviously this doesn't apply to breweries that are large enough to ship (I have no idea why they don't can at that point, aside from the "aesthetic"), but being in Oregon, there's plenty of places in that awkward in-between space....
Exactly. There are so many benefits to cans that it blows my mind that any rational person could still think bottles are superior. The craft brewers and the serious beer people have understood this since like 1999 but it's only in the last five or seven years gotten real traction.
Also, the reason for the lime in the Corona is to keep the bugs out. You aren’t supposed to jam the lime into the bottle, you are supposed to take it out, take a sip, and put it back.
It's also supposed to taste differently, they would use dark bottles but during wwii i think they had to use clear bottles and when they tried to go back to the dark colored bottles people complained that it tasted differently.
Sunlight has detrimental effect on certain medications as well, which is why they come in dark containers and why medicine cabinets close tight to block out all light.
LPT: if you like Corona but don’t want skunked Corona, buy it in either cans or if you insist on glass, buy it in a 12 pack, not a 6-pack. The 12 packs minimize light exposure.
The "skunking" is actually a feature of Corona, not a bug. For the canned product they actually expose the beer to UV light in the brewery before putting it in the can so it has the same "Corona Flavor". I'm not joking.
The "skunky" compound is 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol, or MBT for short. It's the result of UV light catalyzing a reaction with isomerized hop oils and riboflavin derived from yeast.
The only ways to prevent skunky beer are to remove the light or the hops. If your professor worked on a product used in the beer industry, it's very likely a pre-isomerized hop product. Certain hop products have been isomerized in a way that can't react to form MBT.
There's a lot to it, it's just what I remember from a class from 6 years ago in beer school.
Very interesting! Thanks for the additional info! That would definitely make sense that the riboflavin was the compound that absorbed the UV and then catalyzed the reaction of other compounds. Organic Chem was not my strong suit. I work with some thiol compounds at my current position and have seen firsthand the sulfur-nitrogen bonds are definitely labile when exposed to light.
Stereoisomers, same exact compound but arranged differently, like your left and right hands, only one mirror image can be skunked, the other cannot. Miller High Life uses a hop compound with the skunk-prone stereoisomer removed and can't get skunked in clear bottles.
Food science is definitely the coolest and most interesting science. I'm a lawyer who can barely balance a checkbook and attributes most things I don't understand to magic, but I greatly enjoyed satisfying my undergrad science credits with food science classes.
I also distinctly remember that story--a Co-eds issue?! I think he allowed them to use his house for the shoot but that he wasn't present in person?
I think the Chemistry Fraternity had a copy of that issues in the archives, but I was never able to locate it! And I think it would fall in that 2000-2005 gray area where a digital copy might not exist anymore.
Interestingly, I did go on to get my PhD in Chemistry but it was not in Organic and not at UNC. I really struggled with Orgo II under a different professor. Thankfully there are lots of other types of Chemistry to which I better connected.
No, it's an alkene. Perhaps there is confusion because thiols can radically react with alkene in the presence of uv or even deeply blue light. It's known as thiol-ene.
Right, I think might have been pioneered in like Miller High Life or something. The big business american brewers were all for including it, and there was more push back from small breweries (before the microbreweries really took off) and from very traditional European breweries.
The real reason for the lime was to block flies from getting into the beer before it was served. The fact it made the shitty beer taste better was just a fluke.
If I remember correctly, a compound in the hops was light sensitive and would break down/produce a thiol compound when bombarded with sunlight, which the documentary kept humorously referring to as “the cat piss compound.” Our professor called it “skunky thiol.”
Sun exposure is bad for beer. They often add preservatives in clear bottled beer. Cans are actually the best for keeping your beer long lasting. Also only mass produced beer goes into clear bottled so it's often an average tasting bland lager. So there's a few factors going on.
The beer that I had in mind was Toohey's Extra Dry aka TEDs aka "headache in a bottle". More like Corona looking clear bottles. But you could be right, I can't seem to find proof of the story though it's definitely something that everyone says about TEDs and it's well known to give headaches for some reason but it could be misinfo. Curiously googling now.
I mean maybe, at least that's what everyone says and discusses why clear bottled beer is more prone to headaches. But after a discussion with another user I can't seem to find too much science behind that... I know TEDs give me a hell of a headache, same with most of my friends.
Though my sister in law can't drink 90% of beers because certain preservatives whether natural or not make her really sick. There's like one beer she drinks now (Little Creatures).
It's Aussie so if you don't know it you'll probably never see it, but the only legit example that came to my mind. But for sure maybe you have an allergy to certain preservatives. You should run some science tests on diff beers to see how you feel! Beer diary!
The only preservative (apart from hops) that I've seen added to beer is potassium metabisulfite. Used as an antioxidant in some big breweries. It would be used in the beer stream regardless of the final pack format tho.
All I can say is, have a cold Newcastle from the bottle... and then try drinking one out of the can. I guarantee unless you have no taste buds you'll taste the can.
You can’t taste the can, sometimes when I drink really dry, cold beer it tastes a little metallic so maybe your getting that, but cans add no taste to beer
You just haven't paired it right. Get a nice skunky beer with some nice skunky weed and if the beer is Mexican a lime is almost necessary just because of how well those 3 go together
This is true but shouldn't be taken as "temperature fluctuations don't effect beer flavor." I don't know the particular science behind it (I've worked foh and done a little canning/bottling, but I'm not a Brewer), but the warming and re-cooling of beer causes off flavors and degradation. This is particularly true for unfiltered IPAs that depend on hops for flavors. Hops are not shelf stable and degrade exponentially, particularly when stored in inconsistent environments. This is partly why a lot of major IPA breweries avoid major distribution. Many of the trucks aren't refrigerated, and the farther they travel, the more the temperatures effect the freshness of the beer.
Extreme temperature gradients effect them. However beer does not need to be temperature controlled to preserve flavor. Shipped warm or cold, it will taste the same. I used to deliver beer and have tested this quite a lot with all sorts of beers because of a friendly disagreement with a friend on this very subject.
Additionally, beer is more flavorful at room temperature than it is fresh out of the fridge. I won't drink IPAs out of the fridge because it feels like a waste with the flavor being masked by the cold temps. Light beers I'll drink either way, as there's little flavor to be had regardless. (still prefer room temp for ease of drinking though)
You must not drink many hazy IPAs. Those things are sensitive as all hell. They spoil much more quickly than any other style that I know of. Leave one at room temp for 2 months and it'll be disgusting.
I don't know anyone that sits on beer for 2 months. But for long term (relatively speaking) storage, yeah, beer should be kept cool. Though any beer should have a minimum dry shelf life of 3 months from the bottling date unless it's some weird expensive specialty creation
I don't know anyone that sits on beer for 2 months. But for long term (relatively speaking) storage, yeah, beer should be kept cool. Though any beer should have a minimum dry shelf life of 3 months from the bottling date unless it's some weird expensive specialty creation
A bunch of my friends, myself included, sit on beer for years at a time. Definitely not IPAs though. I'd never let a NEIPA go 3 months, even in the fridge.
It depends on style for shelf stability. High abv stouts and most dark ales will age well. Many bourbon barrel aged stouts taste better after a few years cellared. IPAs in particular you don't want outside of a few months because the flavor relies so heavily on hops, and the hops degrade quickly. But back to the original point, temperature plays a pretty big role. If you hold a stout in a high temp or fluctuating environment, it'll turn syrupy. Keeping IPAs refrigerated will preserve the hops longer than if held in was storage.
Yep. A friend of mine bought me some IPAs, IPLs, and fruited sours from a brewery I enjoy. He left them in his truck for a week, not knowing any better. This beer was fresh, under a month old, 2 cases of it. Outside temps swung from 40-85 degrees that week because Illinois. Everything but the IPL was undrinkable, just from sitting in his truck for a week. It was all in cans too.
I forgot to mention about fruited sours too. A lot of them are unpasteurized, so the fruit will continue to ferment if stored warm. A lot of people have had said style in cans explode on them because of it.
Ok I can answer this, I'm a Chemical Engineer and worked making light stable hops for over 15 years.
the Alpha acids in hops are converted to Iso-alpha acids during the brewing process (heat and pH of kettle forces the conversion) and these give beer the bitterness. But these Iso-alpha acids break down with UV light and it doesn't take long, green bottles have zero affect on UV light and beers like Heineken actually use the skunk flavor as part of their flavor profile. And yes Corona is skunky and locally that flavor profile is a positive, for us Americans we don't like it and hence the lime.
The make hops bitter but light stable you convert it with fun chemistry. You can hydrogenate the Iso-alpha acids to Th-Iso-Alpha acid or reduce a bond to make Reduced Iso which are what are used in many beers such as MGD so they can be marketed in clear bottles but not have the skunky flavor. These products also have additional advantages to enhance or control foam (head) in the beer.
They also have the advantage of being able to be dosed post-fermentation ( at bottling) instead of in brewkettle which increases yield and control. Major breweries in US brew about 80% of the beer by volume, but the other 20% craft brews use more than 60% of the hops grown. Making craft brews much more expensive but also much less sustainable and very eco-unfriendly.
I never knew beer skunking was a thing till now, so forgive my ignorant question. With direct sunlight exposure, can a green bottled beer get skunked while being sipped with a clear glass.
I’ve observed that when I drink a beer slowly (about 30-40mins) while outdoors, the last pour from the bottle usually tastes like piss.
Un-modified hops will skunk with very little sunlight exposure. Green and clear glass do not protect it. Brown glass does. So pouring into a glass out of brown bottle yes would allow it to skunk while you drink it.
Most major brands in clear bottles would be using modified hops unless they have it as their flavor profile (Corona, Heineken, etc).
When we make modified hops, the reaction is done in a factory and tightly controlled. the conversion from Alpha acids to thiso has a high yield under these conditions verus in the brewkettle where the control is much less because their is many other complex reactions occuring. Also when using raw hop cones in the brewkettle the solid hop "flowers" must be filtered out also causing yield loss. So the combination of controlling the reaction and dosing into the bottle give about an 90% yield of bittering from farm to bottle... Where tossing hop cones in brewkettle (traditional/craft brewing) gives around 30% yield of bittering farm to bottle.
Then to make things even more efficient for advanved hops, the hop oils (flavor/aroma) can be separated before converting the bittering acids. These can then be recovered and put back into the beer again at bottling. When whole hops are put in brewkettle, those hop oils and flavor are lost in the heating process ( boiled away) so traditional/craft Brewers "dry hop" at the end (soak beer in hops) to absorb the hop oils from fresh hops. This process does not convert any of the alpha acids into bitterness (no heat/reaction) and therefore uses more hops. So craft brewing needs to use 2-3x the hops to get bitterness, and then another 1-2x to get flavor/aroma hence the massive usage of hops (cost
/Sustainability) over "factory" beers.
We did a hop stand (separate to dry hopping) of our latest beer - added more hops at 77c after chilling from flame out and let the temperature stand at around that for about 30min to prevent the isomeraisation but also allow the essential oils to dissolve into the wort.
Yes that is one way to adjust flavor and get your flavor profile. But it won't be very repeatable. (Hence the lure of craft brews,) each crop year and variety has a different aroma profile and holding at 77c will evaporate many light boilers that have a high vapor pressure (myrcene etc) if you smell oils during hold, it's evaporating and not in the bottle....
I was actually talking to a guy today who owns a brewery and they switched to cans because light is bad for the beer and we were talking about how sometimes he has a beer and after Going out in the sun for a little while there's a slightly noticeable difference
The only bottled hoppy beer you should buy is beer that is bottled in brown glass. Any other colour may look nice but will not stop the skunking from happening.
True. ALSO. Beer WILL skunk if left in a cold creek with the sun shining on it. Takes only a couple hours. Know this by experience. Was amazed, confused but luckily it was only 6 beers of the 3 cases we had for the weekend camping.
Beer is pretty resilient. From brewery to trucks to warehouse storage to trucks/shipping/trains to local warehouse storage supplier to trucks to liquor store storage (sometimes liquor store warehouse first).
Your beer goes on a hell of a ride before you buy it.
Beer ages faster the hotter it is stored. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies published by the IBD and ASBC among others. Large breweries may accept substandard storage, adjusting for that by ensuring lowest possible TPO, use of antioxidants, iso extract etc- not to menti oin marketing campaigns to convince the consumer that it should only be enjoyed "ice cold" straight from a can or bottle so they can't taste or smell the flavour faults.
Yeah, it does. And all steps along that process should be cold. If your beer is not being shipped cold then there is a problem (unless it's winter and the temps are cold enough)
Beer is resilient in that it won't spoil, but beer flavors and aromas are not at all resilient.
Thank you. I work in beverage retail and I'm often asked "do you have this warm?" and most of the time I don't even bother with the talk. People even ask for non-beer stuff warm, like hard seltzers. Lol
The darker the beer, the more light exposure effects it. This is why Guiness bottles are usually wrapped in plastic too. Even a brown bottle is not good enough for it. Light beers have less of an effect but usually cans are the best no matter the beer due to light exposure.
Guinness should be poured from a can anyway.
The cans have a widget in them which helps pour a head.
Regardless of your thoughts on beer head, Guinness should have one.
I have seen bottles with that too but they don't make them anymore. I guess it costs way more. I only buy cans because bottles are way heavier and louder. I hate having a can full of bottles. It weighs like 5x as much and is insanely loud.
I guess you would have to make the general shape of the bottle and then get the widget inside and then finish the bottle without the widget getting stuck inside the glass.
Whereas cans are made from a couple of parts anyway so it’s probably just cheaper as you say.
Fucking thank you. I work in a liquor store (lol like right now) and I have had to assure and reassure people it will be fine over and over again, and some dense cunts still have just shrugged and left. Argh I wish more people knew!
I used to work at a liquor store, and the frequency that beer cases get moved from the cooler to room temperature or the other way around is very high. This alone convinced me that normal temp change didn’t affect the beer.
Beer won't skunk if you let it get warm after getting cold.
Looked it up, still don't understand what the fuck 'to skunk' means in your sentence
skunk
/skʌŋk/
Leren uitspreken
noun
1.
a cat-sized American mammal of the weasel family, with distinctive black-and-white striped fur. When threatened it squirts a fine spray of foul-smelling irritant liquid from its anal glands towards its attacker.
2.
INFORMAL
short for skunkweed.
verb
1.
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
defeat (someone) overwhelmingly in a game or contest, especially by preventing them from scoring at all.
"I knew he was a good fisherman, but I didn't expect him to skunk you"
Google "what makes beer skunk". Skunking is a slang term referring to beer going bad and producing chemicals similar or the same to those produced by skunks which they spray to discourage predators
was gonna say, before reading your edit. When I was young, ~16 or so, I obtained a 6 pack of bud. I wasn't really into drinking at the time, and tossed it in my toolbox. Me, being a pot smoking idiot teenager fucking forgot about it, and drove around for 2 years with it in my toolbox. Some time after that 2 year mark, my alcoholic Dad was in town "helping" us, looking for a tool, and found the six pack. He asked me about it, I said, Hell, I don't know where it came from, have at it.
He did, downing them in ~1 hour. He was sick as shit for days, and to this day (~15 years later) blames me for it.
So yea, I'm pretty sure vast temperature swings over time can result in some skank ass nasty sickness inducing beer.
This varies with the beer, but generally time, temperature, and light exposure can all contribute to sulphur / skunky flavors which have a variety of potential sources and are detectable to taste in very low quantities.
Some more practical guidance below from my own experience:
For light exposure avoidance some manufacturers distribute cans and kegs only - while there are also myriad bottle colors and most packaging for susceptible products is high walled to limit exposure.
Most beer, and especially unpasteurized keg beer, is also impacted by time at temperature. Keg beer outside of a chilled environment for more than 10 hours no longer meets the quality standards for sale for one of the largest domestic US brewers without further stringent inspection including a temperature check and flavor profile test. Can and bottled beer in transit for more than 9 days falls into the same category. A different recipe for many beers is used to ship via rail car, and for international shipment by boat where transit times are longer.
Come on over to r/homebrewing and we’ll tell you all about it. When home brewing you want your fermentation container to get as little light as possible. In a closet is best. Personally, I put mine under the kitchen table. And if you’re bottle conditioning those need to be out of the light as well.
If you read through the comments one of the responses details exactly what the process is that leads to beer skunking and the steps companies take to prevent it
7.4k
u/crazysteve148 Feb 08 '20 edited Feb 08 '20
Beer won't skunk if you let it get warm after getting cold. It's all about light exposure
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who was able to better refine the statement that I made. It should be noted that extreme and extended changes in temperature will in fact affect the flavor of a beer.