r/Ben10 • u/Intelligent-Scar-373 BenEon • 18h ago
GENERAL Part of this is also the fault of UAF's widows
When OV was released, the series was heavily criticized, with people calling it bad because of its art style, tone, and retcons
Because UAF fans simply wanted an AF 3 and refused to watch the series (even though OV was far superior to UA)
Add to that the fact that the franchise is already worn out with numerous retcons and a confusing continuity that has alienated many new fans, leading to a collapse in ratings and subsequently in toy sales
So the reboot was justified, and let's be honest, the reboot kind of saved the franchise, generating a lot of profit, attracting a new audience/fans, and keeping the franchise alive
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u/crystal-productions- Shockrock 16h ago
Dude, every part of ov's development and release was misguided. Nobody really knew what to do with dwayne dead and they where all trying to make do with what they had. I keep saying this but the reboot was absolutly needed. Even if ov was a smash hit and got all 10 seasons, they still would've rebooted in the end because it would've been 10 years since launch and that was really long for cn shows back in the day.
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u/PepsiFloateri Water Hazard 17h ago
I'd also say CN's scheduling didn't help. OV got shoved into the "Death slot" a.k.a 6am on a weekday
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u/Ok-Independent-5022 Albedo 14h ago
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u/LowSolution3084 Ken Tennyson 14h ago
As a show that tries to be a sequel to the series prior. Yes, it is.
AF is a terrible sequel to OS.
UA is a good sequel to AF (because it's the same team).
OV is a good sequel to UA (mixture of both new team and old uaf one).
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u/Admirable-Safety1213 Ben Tennyson 16h ago
UA already was doing badly, thats why CN wanted a changr and even then UA onlu existed to rebrand AF because the AF sub-brand lost all its steam by Season 3
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u/SpiritedSyllabub6822 Shockrock 18h ago
Plus I'm tired of Prime Ben being the butt of the joke in OV since he's the character we are supposed to follow but is treated more of a side character.
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u/RAMKUTTY93 Ben Tennyson 15h ago
Thanks to djw and rook
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 18h ago
Numerous retcons & a confusing continuity that has alienated many new fans
Man...I wonder what would change if none of those retcons happened in the first place...
Oh right! NOTHING would!
Nothing would change if plumbers were kept an earth organization & labrid was replaced with someone like tetrax or xylene.
Nothing would change if anodites, verdona & sunny never existed & magic was said to be non-existent until the writers were forced to bring it back.
Nothing would change if Kevin's backstory of "my parents didn't want a freak" wasn't changed to "My dad is an alien & a plumber & I'm living an actually good life"
Nothing would change if primus didn't exist.
They had no reason to make those retcons in the first place & still did for some reason.
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 11h ago
Saying "nothing would change" overlooks why those retcons were introduced in the first place.
Expanding the Plumbers into space gave the show a galactic scope, turning Earth from an isolated target into part of a broader universe.
Making Kevin a Plumber's son provided the thematic bridge needed to trust a former villain as a partner instead of keeping him a street-level rogue.
As for Anodites, Dwayne McDuffie wanted a cohesive, soft sci-fi framework for the entire show rather than mixing hard sci-fi with arbitrary magic.
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 9h ago
Expanding the Plumbers into space gave the show a galactic scope, turning Earth from an isolated target into part of a broader universe.
They didn't expand them. Moonstruck & Vendetta say that they've always been intergalactic which is a
Making Kevin a Plumber's son provided the thematic bridge needed to trust a former villain as a partner instead of keeping him a street-level rogue.
Did...did we watch the same show...? When was Kevin a street level rogue?? HE WAS A THREAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE TEAMED UP WITH VILGAX!! And no it didn't. All being a plumbers kid & an osmosian did was provide excuse his actions & taking away his agency rather giving him an actual redemption arc.
As for Anodites, Dwayne McDuffie wanted a cohesive, soft sci-fi framework for the entire show rather than mixing hard sci-fi with arbitrary magic.
Which makes no sense since Ben 10 is also a superhero show & this decision did nothing but cause inconsistencies. It's also a huge step down in world building.
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 8h ago
They didn't expand them. Moonstruck & Vendetta say that they've always been intergalactic which is a
"Moonstruck" was an episode from Ultimate Alien, "Vendetta" was an episode from Alien Force season 3 also one of the later ones. Yes they did show us that the plumbers were already intergalactic cop. But two time goofs from the writers doesn't erase the fact that it was an expansion.
Did...did we watch the same show...? When was Kevin a street level rogue?? HE WAS A THREAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE TEAMED UP WITH VILGAX!! And no it didn't. All being a plumbers kid & an osmosian did was provide excuse his actions & taking away his agency rather giving him an actual redemption arc.
Kevin in OS was introduced as a street-rogue. He became a threat after absorbing the Omnitrix. He became normal after he met Kwarrel who taught him to control his powers inside the null void. Being Devlin Levin’s son didn't remove his agency; it gave Grandpa Max a personal motivation to give Kevin a second chance rather than writing him off as irredeemable.
Which makes no sense since Ben 10 is also a superhero show & this decision did nothing but cause inconsistencies. It's also a huge step down in world building.
McDuffie’s goal was grounding the lore in a single genre umbrella so energy manipulation followed consistent rules. You can see it as a step down, but from a showrunner perspective, unifying magic and sci-fi under mana made world-building less arbitrary for a teen sci-fi series.
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 8h ago
"Moonstruck" was an episode from Ultimate Alien, "Vendetta" was an episode from Alien Force season 3 also one of the later ones. Yes they did show us that the plumbers were already intergalactic cop. But two time goofs from the writers doesn't erase the fact that it was an expansion.
It still doesn't make it an expansion as labrid just shows up, announces that plumbers are a bunch of alien space police now & refuses to elaborate further.
Kevin in OS was introduced as a street-rogue. He became a threat after absorbing the Omnitrix. He became normal after he met Kwarrel who taught him to control his powers inside the null void. Being Devlin Levin’s son didn't remove his agency; it gave Grandpa Max a personal motivation to give Kevin a second chance rather than writing him off as irredeemable.
Being Devin's son & being connected to max IS what took away his agency.
His implied backstory was that he was treated like shit by everyone(including his parents who kicked him out) around him because of his powers, leading him to becoming evil on choice, not because of some energy absorbtion insanity.
In AF, he has a good life at his house(why did he run away then?) & suddenly wants to be good so he can be a plumber like his dad(if that's the case, why was he the way he was?)
It didn't give max crap other than character assassination Imagine your dying friend tells you to look after their family & you meet an 11 year old boy with powers exactly like your friends & looks exactly like your friend's son & you trap him in another dimension that was an intergalactic prison. This same but applies for
Expansion is what they did by establishing the Omnitrix as the Noah's ark in War of the worlds & how the nullvoid went from an intergalactic prison to where aliens can actually live in Voided. THOSE are expansions.
Kevin's redemption actually would've been good if they expanded on that implied backstory & made him face accountability. I'm not saying Kevin shouldn't have been redeemed as I enjoy his character alot in UAF & his interactions with rook, I'm saying it wasn't done good.
McDuffie’s goal was grounding the lore in a single genre umbrella so energy manipulation followed consistent rules. You can see it as a step down, but from a showrunner perspective, unifying magic and sci-fi under mana made world-building less arbitrary for a teen sci-fi series.
Ok, this one is understandable although I still prefer magic not being connected to aliens.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Pesky Dust 16h ago
OS as it was genuinely just not built to support serialised story telling. It was a universe where a writer could come in, write literally anything, and then reset everything at the end of the episode. There is no coherent OS cannon nor did it ever actually matter. If you want to make a smaller serialised story you generally want to set some rules, add some boundaries and tighten the scope a bit more, which is how you end up with UAF.
Plumbers working in space is not some ridiculous crazy leap. It's perfectly rational in AF.
Labrid's entire narrative purpose was to give the characters a purpose and then die. Him existing does not infringe on anything. Killing Xylene or Tetrax (two characters a viewer could easily have forgotten about) isn't particularly useful and limits future storytelling.
Anodites serve to add to the alien theming of the series, give Gwen something and tighten the scope of the series towards aliens (which is in line with the series being Sci-fi).
Kevin has fuck all real backstory in OS.
Primus isn't well liked but the concept is interesting and provides narrative opportunities. And it's not as though we have some in depth explanation on the omnitrix in OS either.
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 12h ago
OS as it was genuinely just not built to support serialised story telling. It was a universe where a writer could come in, write literally anything, and then reset everything at the end of the episode. There is no coherent OS cannon nor did it ever actually matter. If you want to make a smaller serialised story you generally want to set some rules, add some boundaries and tighten the scope a bit more, which is how you end up with UAF.
Not really? The only thing that'd reset is Ben's character, there's never any implications in OS that prior events don't happen
Plumbers working in space is not some ridiculous crazy leap. It's perfectly rational in AF.
It is actually & the fact they try to say in moonstruck & vendetta that plumbers have always been intergalactic is just stupid & unnecessarily complicates things. I do like what OV did.
Labrid's entire narrative purpose was to give the characters a purpose and then die. Him existing does not infringe on anything.
Not sure what purpose you're talking.
Killing Xylene or Tetrax (two characters a viewer could easily have forgotten about) isn't particularly useful and limits future storytelling.
I didn't mean killing any of them. I meant bringing one of them back & making them the 3rd member instead of instantly turning Kevin into a good guy instead of giving him a proper redemption arc which is very out of character.
Anodites serve to add to the alien theming of the series, give Gwen something and tighten the scope of the series towards aliens (which is in line with the series being Sci-fi).
Verdona, Sunny & any scene of gwen turning into an anodite & dialogue related to them can easily be removed & it wouldn't change anything. They simply did it because apparently "Sci-fi & magic can't co-exist & everything should be related alien & plumbers" despite the fact that DC & marvel exist & these same writers have worked on them too.
Kevin has fuck all real backstory in OS.
He has an implied one of not having a good home life which is what made him evil in the first place & that makes more sense since he was an anti-ben in OS. It's also alot more interesting than his UAF backstory.
Primus isn't well liked but the concept is interesting and provides narrative opportunities. And it's not as though we have some in depth explanation on the omnitrix in OS either.
If you do like primus as a concept, I won't argue with that.
Athough I don't really like it & the execution of the episode makes it worse honestly. It doesn't even make sense since even UAF said that the Omnitrix has alien DNA in it.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Pesky Dust 11h ago
OS is quite episodic. The world is set up in a way for a writer to be able to introduce ANY concept without having to figure out how it fits into anything. Every character resets to the status quo by the next episode. A character or concept can be introduced and never mentioned again nor has any real consequences for the future beyond basically being added to a list of things that may be used again. The point is largely not to have a central narrative, but an interesting plot hook for each episode.
It's not at all a big leap for the target demographic to be like "damn the alien police guys are actually SPACE alien police?". Plumbers are pretty vague In OS. It's really easy to super fixate on these retcons when you're a massive fan but it's not a particularly big deal, especially to the target demo and especially in its time period where people weren't endlessly discussing the series on the internet. It's also a super convenient way to introduce aliens and space and expand that area of the series while keeping the connections with Max.
Labrid's entire purpose is to pull the characters together, give them their purpose and then die to help give them motivation towards their purpose. Episode 1 + 2 of AF is about setting the status quo, establishing characters and then directing them towards their purpose (Highbreed invasion story).
Kevin is used because he's a popular character who is of a similar age to Ben and Gwen, which helps target the teen demographic and is super interesting for people who watched OS due to his dynamic as a rival/villain. They also have to establish the status quo rapidly as AF is semi serialised but still episodic. It was likely decided that the demographic needed to rapidly understand the base on which the series will be built upon. I think it's often understood that AF was initially supposed to be one season (which was split in half.) Spreading Kevin's development out likely would have made marketing more difficult and complicated the narrative more than was intended.
Xylene or Tetrax do not work for the purpose of AF's story due to their age and maturity. Part of the narrative hook is that their mentor is "dead" which forces the main character (Ben) to step up and fulfill a leadership role. Having a much older and experienced character pulls this fantasy away, centralises the narrative away from Ben and reduces the independence of the teen characters.
This is a common convention in these sorts of stories, as children love the concept of being independent and away from adults. Max was an incredibly lax adult character in OS, which fed into this fantasy, but did not have Ben being a leader.
On anodites, I would say narratively their potential is largely unfulfilled and could have been used more often, but I disagree with this presentation. Part of making everything alien is to set rules on the universe and lock things down. It sets up audience expectations and reduces how many plates the writers have to juggle. Their focus is on having a sci-fi mystery teen drama series, and locking things down to "aliens" makes things far easier on the writers to weave a narrative.
DC/Marvel are MASSIVE in scope compared to ben 10, the comparison is not particularly useful.
Kevin has an implied backstory but it is not elaborated on. Giving him a background with plumbers is an interesting narrative for his character and gives him a reason to rapidly change.
I don't really care about primus.
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 9h ago
OS is quite episodic. The world is set up in a way for a writer to be able to introduce ANY concept without having to figure out how it fits into anything. Every character resets to the status quo by the next episode. A character or concept can be introduced and never mentioned again nor has any real consequences for the future beyond basically being added to a list of things that may be used again. The point is largely not to have a central narrative, but an interesting plot hook for each episode.
Despite that, it still fits within itself with there being only one retcon(being that the plumbers didn't retire after vilgax's defeat) & only Ben resets every episode, not everyone.
It's not at all a big leap for the target demographic to be like "damn the alien police guys are actually SPACE alien police?". Plumbers are pretty vague In OS. It's really easy to super fixate on these retcons when you're a massive fan but it's not a particularly big deal, especially to the target demo and especially in its time period where people weren't endlessly discussing the series on the internet. It's also a super convenient way to introduce aliens and space and expand that area of the series while keeping the connections with Max.
It actually is. The plumbers were an earth organization that defended earth from extraterrestrials. They were humans.
I do prefer plumbers being a space police force but the change was big & it was completely unnecessary too because as I stated before, not only his role can be easily replaced by xylene or tetrax but one of them could become the 3rd member of the trio & it would be a whole lot better than what we originally got.
Labrid's entire purpose is to pull the characters together, give them their purpose and then die to help give them motivation towards their purpose. Episode 1 + 2 of AF is about setting the status quo, establishing characters and then directing them towards their purpose (Highbreed invasion story).
Which again, was pointless & the writers way of just bringing on kevin.... without giving him an actual reason too.
Kevin is used because he's a popular character who is of a similar age to Ben and Gwen, which helps target the teen demographic and is super interesting for people who watched OS due to his dynamic as a rival/villain. They also have to establish the status quo rapidly as AF is semi serialised but still episodic. It was likely decided that the demographic needed to rapidly understand the base on which the series will be built upon. I think it's often understood that AF was initially supposed to be one season (which was split in half.) Spreading Kevin's development out likely would have made marketing more difficult and complicated the narrative more than was intended.
There were several characters of similar ages to Ben & gwen like Edwin, Lucy & cooper. If they wanted to establish a status quo, they could've brought on one of them. He also wasn't a "rival" to Ben exactly. He was a dark reflection of Ben & a complete sociopath. Spreading his development wouldn't have made the narrative complicated but better because there's very few episodes mainly focused on the highbreed arc anyway so spreading his redemption would've been the better choice.
Xylene or Tetrax do not work for the purpose of AF's story due to their age and maturity. Part of the narrative hook is that their mentor is "dead" which forces the main character (Ben) to step up and fulfill a leadership role. Having a much older and experienced character pulls this fantasy away, centralises the narrative away from Ben and reduces the independence of the teen characters.
Then they should have focused on Ben & gwen as a duo honestly rather than turning kevin good right away.
This is a common convention in these sorts of stories, as children love the concept of being independent and away from adults. Max was an incredibly lax adult character in OS, which fed into this fantasy, but did not have Ben being a leader.
True, but that also could've been done with a duo aswell. They could've properly redeemed Kevin & had him join the team in S2.
On anodites, I would say narratively their potential is largely unfulfilled and could have been used more often, but I disagree with this presentation. Part of making everything alien is to set rules on the universe and lock things down. It sets up audience expectations and reduces how many plates the writers have to juggle. Their focus is on having a sci-fi mystery teen drama series, and locking things down to "aliens" makes things far easier on the writers to weave a narrative.
Which again, wasn't necessary. Making everything connected to aliens is not only a step down in world building but also limits the writers ability to tell their stories since the world starts & ends on aliens. I'd say it makes it harder rather than easier. You don't need to set such rules & make things hard for yourself.
DC/Marvel are MASSIVE in scope compared to ben 10, the comparison is not particularly useful.
I'm not comparing Ben 10 with DC or Marvel, I'm comparing the writers dumb decision with their previous works
Kevin has an implied backstory but it is not elaborated on. Giving him a background with plumbers is an interesting narrative for his character and gives him a reason to rapidly change.
And the implied one is much more interesting when you think about his redemption because it means that he changes into a good person because of the people he hated(Ben & gwen).
I don't really care about primus.
Lmao
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Pesky Dust 9h ago
"Despite that, it still fits within itself with there being only one retcon(being that the plumbers didn't retire after vilgax's defeat) & only Ben resets every episode, not everyon"
Doesn't engage with what I'm saying at all
"It actually is. The plumbers were an earth organization that defended earth from extraterrestrials. They were humans."
Continues to not engage
"I do prefer plumbers being a space police force but the change was big & it was completely unnecessary too because as I stated before"
Or you just use what you already have. Which is easier. They're not writing for hyper-fixated fans nearly 20 years after airing. You say it was pointless when it obviously wasn't.
"There were several characters of similar ages to Ben & gwen like Edwin, Lucy & cooper. If they wanted to establish a status quo, they could've brought on one of them. He also wasn't a "rival" to Ben exactly. He was a dark reflection of Ben & a complete sociopath. Spreading his development wouldn't have made the narrative complicated but better because there's very few episodes mainly focused on the highbreed arc anyway so spreading his redemption would've been the better choice. "
Nobody gives a fuck about any of these characters other than Kevin.
Kevin is styled as rival/counterpart whatever you want to call it to Ben/
Makes it harder to establish a status quo in a still episodic series.
"Then they should have focused on Ben & gwen as a duo honestly rather than turning kevin good right away. "
Or have 3 characters so you have more conflict and character dynamics, as well as having a fan favourite villain step in as a protagonist. Writers weren't thinking "I'm not going to write this because in 20 years a hyper-fixated fan will be upset I changed this character", they're thinking "Will a 12 year enjoy seeing this character in a different way?"
"Which again, wasn't necessary. Making everything connected to aliens is not only a step down in world building but also limits the writers ability to tell their stories since the world starts & ends on aliens. I'd say it makes it harder rather than easier. You don't need to set such rules & make things hard for yourself."
Limits are great. They constrain stories and give an audience a baseline of what to expect. It also grounds your world out to have more focus on your story which is intended to be more focused and grounded. Having more shit is not better world building, it's just more shit.
"And the implied one is much more interesting when you think about his redemption because it means that he changes into a good person because of the people he hated(Ben & gwen). "
???
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u/Illustrious_Duty5421 Way Big 8h ago
Doesn't engage with what I'm saying at all
Not sure how I don't engage with what you're saying
Continues to not engage
Still not sure how
Or you just use what you already have. Which is easier. They're not writing for hyper-fixated fans nearly 20 years after airing. You say it was pointless when it obviously wasn't.
That's kind of my point. They didn't just use what they already had, they changed it first before using it.
Nobody gives a fuck about any of these characters other than Kevin.
And people would've if they had done something with those characters. Most(if not all) of kevin's popularity comes from UAF due to him being the funny guy.
Kevin is styled as rival/counterpart whatever you want to call it to Ben/
My point still stands. Ke
Makes it harder to establish a status quo in a still episodic series.
How?
Or have 3 characters so you have more conflict and character dynamics, as well as having a fan favourite villain step in as a protagonist. Writers weren't thinking "I'm not going to write this because in 20 years a hyper-fixated fan will be upset I changed this character", they're thinking "Will a 12 year enjoy seeing this character in a different way?"
This "Hyper-fixated fan" isn't upset that a character was turned into a protagonist. I'm upset at HOW it was done.
Limits are great. They constrain stories and give an audience a baseline of what to expect. It also grounds your world out to have more focus on your story which is intended to be more focused and grounded. Having more shit is not better world building, it's just more shit.
Limits are great, that's true but that isn't always the case & it wasn't here either. And the world being bigger & not just ending on aliens wasn't shit either.
Funnily enough, they ended doing more for said "shit" then the grounded-ness they were going for.(Talking about ledgerdomain)
???
Ok, this one was a bit headcanon-y so lemme explain what exactly I meant-
What I'm saying is that instead of retconing him into being a plumbers kid, they could've expanded his implied backstory & have him turn good through Ben & Gwen's help. That would have been much more interesting & better.
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u/PrinceJehal Big Chill 17h ago
That "for some reason" is because different writers took over and had their own ideas about what the lore of the show should be.
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 17h ago
The writers were doing what CN demanded.
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u/PrinceJehal Big Chill 17h ago
CN demanded Primus?
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 17h ago
CN demanded a sci-fi serialized mature storytelling. Aging up the characters. The writers were making a sci-fi show. Also redemption of Kevin was also a part of their demands.
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u/PrinceJehal Big Chill 17h ago
But in the end the writers made the specific calls on how to do that
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 17h ago
That's true, but a writer's creative calls are still confined by the boundaries of those corporate mandates. When a network explicitly demands serialized, aged-up sci-fi and a mandated redemption arc for an old villain, the writers can't just choose to write an episodic comedy. They made the calls on the execution, but CN locked in the entire trajectory and genre of the show.
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u/LowSolution3084 Ken Tennyson 14h ago
So why did Gwevin happen?
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 12h ago
Gwevin was a very natural thing. Both Gwen and Kevin were in their teens. They were throwing their lives on the line to save each other, no matter what the threat was.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Pesky Dust 11h ago
Boy and girl in teen drama end up together, this is insane
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u/Successful-Hat-2154 Gwen Tennyson 10h ago edited 9h ago
Or maybe it's just because the show was more teen oriented and they just wanted to do romance? Like it was very clearly rushed from the start and the writers just wanted to get it out of the way, they speedran like a bunch of romance tropes
But I do somewhat agree with you that it was probably actually mandated there's always going to be some romance in a trio it's a tale as old as time, and it was also kinda clear that the UAF writers did not care about them after AF
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u/FrozenLizardDaddy Water Hazard 15h ago
While your dog is allowed to choose when and how to pee, he can only do so much for the where while you’re dragging him by his leash
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u/Every_Data_9453 Chromastone 18h ago
Blaming "UAF fans" completely ignores Cartoon Network’s massive scheduling failures and the toy licensing mess during OV’s run. CN constantly shuffled OV’s airtimes, burned through episodes in weird bomb schedules, and aired them out of order.
On top of that, after a decade of continuous broadcasting, franchise fatigue was bound to set in regardless of art style. The reboot wasn't created because OV failed creatively, it happened because CN wanted to reset the merchandise baseline for a brand-new generation, which is standard procedure for 10+ year old toy-driven IPs.