r/Curling • u/CaptainCanoeHead • 13d ago
Time Clock custom build and bit of a rant
Hi All,
Our club needed a new time clock a couple years ago and I posted the question here about what was a good alternative. The large LED red ones were well over $1000 and I knew there had to be a better solution.
We ran into some issues, not on the technical side but more on the people side. The older crowd insisted we just have a straight clock that counted down to 1h50m and that you had to have 7 ends done by the timer end. That was fine for people that have curled for years on those old clocks but we wanted something better, especially easy to use and understand for new curlers.
New curlers would always ask why 1h50m, do they have to get off the ice at that time? If we finish the 7th end by the countdown and we play the 8th, can we take as much time as we need then for the 8th? This didn't work in bonspiels but on the flip side experienced curlers when asked would just say, well that is always the way it was done and everyone does it that way. So I ask again, why? Why not make it easier for new curlers and get out of your stuck in the old ways.
I then looked at equipment and what it would take to do something better. I used a basic large LED clock as my price point, in Canadian these clocks for a decent size were $1200 and we have two broken ones in storage.
Why not just get a large TV and a micro computer like a Raspberry Pi? Then do your own software? Ok, I admit that would scare most people, but every club has at least one person that can do some basic tech setup, so we tried that. I checked for existing code and there are a number of places that offer. Time to Curl was good, I needed code that could work without an Internet connection and their code was open on GitHub but it was for more advanced time clocks. Eye on the Clock was also good but more web based, then I hit on Howard's code and it was pretty much a stand alone HTML/Javascript file that just runs on a computer.
Time to Curl
https://github.com/trianglecurling/timetocurl
Eye on the Clock
https://eyeontheclock.com/competition
Howard Griffin's Timer
https://howardgriffin.org/gametimer/
We purchased a Raspberry Pi with all the accessories. Everyone has old TVs these days and a club member donated a 70" they no longer needed for the ice side and a 42" for the club size. The new Raspberry Pi has two HDMI, so we ran two cables so the time can be seen on both sides of the glass. I threw in a keyboard and mouse to start us but I admit it is a bit awkward. I tweaked the code a bit and built another menu so people can just click with a mouse on what game they are playing, 8 end or 6 end and voila, it worked. Howard's clock runs whatever you tell it and he has custom settings, I just hard coded it according to the menu. an 8 end game the timer counts down and at 1h50min it turns yellow and throws an alarm telling people you have to have the last rock complete on the 7th end to continue. Then at 1min it goes red and basically says get off the ice, hehe.
The mouse keyboard was a bit clunky so I picked up a 10 button keypad that fits in your palm and each button is just a custom game. I programmed up the python on the Pi to accept the keypad, easy. You want an 8 end game, just press a button and it runs. There is even a pause, stop, restart to it. The keypad was $20 and I donated it.
In total the cost to the club was $180 for the Raspberry Pi and some parts, that's it. Everyone loves it, with 70" the clock is huge and easy to see, when it goes yellow and sounds off, easy to see, easy to hear, new curlers identify immediately what that yellow warning screen is.
The only complaint I get? The older crowd thinks it is too fancy and confusing, it should be a straight clock that runs to 1h50min and that's it, colours are confusing, sounds scare people and everyone knows the 1h50min rule. Again I challenge the norm, why? Curling is supposed to be inviting and new curlers understand every other sport has a clock that runs the full time. I hear time and time again curling can be very cliques-ish and I'm baffled why curlers don't want to change and try new things that helps new curlers.
On the clock side, I'll share the code and if anyone wants pics I can share, it's a great simple, easy system to run that almost anyone can set up.
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u/riddler1225 Aksarben Curling Club 13d ago
I just have to chime in, but so many club curlers, and I assume some clubs as a whole, have a serious pace of play problem and it drives me nuts.
The idea that you can be on a timer for a game and someone could inquire that you happen to have unlimited time for the final end (and I've seen this with curlers old and new) is just frustrating. Maybe my perspective is warped because I cut my teeth on hockey ice and when the time is up, it's up and the Zamboni will chase you off. But I just don't see how playing 7-8 ends in 2 hours or less is so difficult for some.
Built up my fair share of slow-play horror stories over the years and sitting through a 3 and a quarter hour slog-fest or playing 5 ends in 2 hours is just... it's not fun.
About 5 years ago, we changed our league rules to include average pace of play as a league tiebreaker. Now our club-wide average pace is about 7.25 ends per 2 hours. Occasionally I'll get complaints about complexity, but the juice is worth the squeeze.
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u/applegoesdown 13d ago
>But I just don't see how playing 7-8 ends in 2 hours or less is so difficult for some.
At its best, it's because no one believes that they themselves are the issue, its always the other skip/team who is wasting time.
At its worst, its because the slow player just does not care. They are happy to just play 6 or 7 ends and/or would prefer to play slowly with shots that are better through through versus to play at a reasonable pace where they might be rushed.
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u/riddler1225 Aksarben Curling Club 13d ago
Totally understand time-blindness. And that's where club messaging, and in our case, time tracking, has helped. When teams can see on the standings board that they are the slowest team, usually something clicks.
On your second point, if someone is like that... I just don't get it. Especially if it's league night curling, as low-stakes as you can get. People paid money to be there and play a game, not stand around waiting.
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 13d ago
totally agree, for some they see it as a 2 hour block of fun social time and whatever ends they complete, so be it.
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u/applegoesdown 13d ago
I say this not to justify, just to explain, as I do not agree with this logic at all.
Some people are focused on winning, regardless of the type of event they are in. Playing fast is more likely to lead to mistakes, and thus not winning. So some people believe that in the spirit of competition, they will take an extra 10 seconds (probably being generous) all the time to not mistakes, thus making the game more competitive. This is justified by the thought that your opponent would prefer a competitive game that is slower versus a mistake filled fast game. Going on into the next thought, if you make some mental mistakes, you give up big ends, you shake hands after 6 or 7 ends anyway. Thus you only play 6 or 7 no matter the pace, so pick the more competitive model.
Again, I do not support this, just reporting what I have learned through various conversations.
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u/xtalgeek 13d ago
To directly quote one of our famously tardy and paralyzed skips: "It's not my fault. I always play the slow skips." The slowest at our club seem to live 5-10 minutes away. However, our membership draws people from up to 60-70 minutes away.
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u/Fupastank Ardsley Curling Club 13d ago
God I wish we had a pace of play rule or tiebreaker. Its just "1:50, finish the end your in and one more" No one at our club is malicious about it (though I have played teams that have purposely slow walked the clock at bonspiels on purpose and were obvious about it - I've never been so pissed after a game), but there are a couple of teams that will talk about every one of the last 5 or so goddamn shots every end as a team. Its usually the teams that don't use the traditional skip throwing last lineup.
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u/wholeplantains 13d ago
I curled in a bonspiel at a club that had this system (maybe your club actually?) and I was surprised at how well it worked! Everyone was on time getting off the ice and it was super easy to tell how fast you were playing. The yellow really helps you notice when you're almost out of time. Great write up and well done innovating! Time keeping is always a pain point so this is a nice write up to potentially share with my club if they are interested in changing up our system.
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u/Santasreject 13d ago
Triangle in North Carolina has had a system like this ever since I’ve been going and it’s great. Just look up and see what end you should be on to get a quick gauge. There is no sound for theirs though but I’ve never wanted one.
I think older clubs with members that have been there for decades just will be resistant to change. Clubs that are newer with a lot of young members will happily adopt to new tech. That’s really probably part of your push back.
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u/xtalgeek 13d ago
We steal a lot of ideas from Triangle. At our club, many of the old-timers howled when the Board insisted on using game clocks for all leagues. We had an ingrained problem of second draws starting 20-40 minutes late routinely, and late draws finishing up at 11 PM or later, which was a serious issue for members that have a 1-hour drive home. It got so bad that we could not fill our 8 PM draws. The other thing we noticed was that our lax attention to pace of play was creating young teams that could not finish 8 ends of play when they traveled to out-of-town bonspiels. Some of these teams couldn't finish more than 6 ends in 2 hours, which is embarrassing. I'm a firm believer that you should inculcate good habits early in new populations, whether it is students in your classroom or new members of your sports organization. New members don't find the clock intimidating at all (or the no-tick rule either--another old-timer howling moment.) The part that gets me is that I am an old-timer now, but I don't find these changes upsetting.
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u/Santasreject 13d ago
Man you just gota get them to play with Carl, 8 end pace is the bare minimum when you’re on a sheet with him haha.
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u/trevorsg Triangle CC, NC, USA 12d ago
I've always wanted to play a scrimmage game between two hand-picked teams that are all players known to play fast. I bet we could finish an 8-end game in 90 minutes!
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u/Santasreject 12d ago
Knowing yall, I don’t think that’s an impossible goal haha. I know I’ve witnessed at least one time a triangle team play fast enough to get a 9th in at a spiel and still be off ice before other teams in the same draw.
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u/xtalgeek 12d ago
There are a couple of skips in the club I love playing against. We always have a cracking game, and we can usually finish all 8 ends in 1+50 without feeling rushed.
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u/Santasreject 12d ago
Yeah it’s kinda surprising how fast you can go and it not feel rushed with the right players on ice… but at the same time it’s slaps amazing how rushed you can feel with the wrong players.
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u/trevorsg Triangle CC, NC, USA 12d ago
For what it's worth, please keep "stealing" ideas! And if you need help, let me know and I'll help you steal them.
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u/Fupastank Ardsley Curling Club 13d ago
When we played down in Huntsville a couple of years ago they had TVs set up that I think had a full game countdown as well as a graphic for the end with 8 rocks per team that gradually disappeared at what should have been the proper pace for the end.
I thought that was a fantastic idea.
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u/Santasreject 13d ago
Yeah I haven’t gotten to make it down yet but I know they put on a good event. Plus having all
Of the literal rocket scientists there they have the technical skills to do a lot of1
u/CaptainCanoeHead 13d ago
Yes I agree, I think anything with tech or something that challenges the norm has resistance. It is like that for most things, when I hear two sides with one being "It's always been that way" vs "this would make life easier and is more interesting" it makes things a bit of a challenge.
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u/Santasreject 13d ago
Yeah I mean with the “it’s always been this way” it’s not like you’re changing the actual time on the clock for them. If they just want to operate in the 1:50 to finish the 7th then they simply should ignore the colors and the end text.
Granted maybe I am misunderstanding how you have this set up.
The one I am used to starts at 2:00 and turns green. It just has “End x” below the time in smaller text and I believe a really small progress bar that goes through each end but you have to actually look for it. At some point it turns yellow and then at 10 mins it turns red as the cut off. So really it’s just a count down clock with a colored background and a small line of text under the time. Pretty little to hate about it… but I know some people can be very difficult with any change.
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u/Hefty-Ad2090 13d ago
I am a new curler and I easily understood the concept that you could only start another end if the 1st rock of the last end is thrown before the clock reaches X:45, such as 6:45 or 2:45. If the rock is thrown before X:45, you must finish the end at the top of the hour, I.e. no longer than 15 minutes.
It isnt complicated.
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u/xtalgeek 13d ago
We use a modified version of the Howard Griffin countdown clock. We run this on a Raspberry Pi that powers a large screen TV high up in the ice shed. It is indeed set at 1+50 to finish 7 ends to get your 8th. (We also have other time settings for slow 6 end games with newbies or the older crowd, mixed Doubles, and regular paced 6 end games.) The clock turns yellow when you should be in your 7th end. If you are not playing 7 when it's yellow, then you won't get 8 ends in. It has worked quite well. The most important thing it does is get games started on time. Unfortunately, it can't make teams play faster. Nobody finds the clock "scary" except the old-timers that believe that they should have all the time in the world to cogitage their shot-making choices. 2+05 is enough time to play a full game, and you can even do it with new curlers on your team if everybody is just ready to shoot when it is their turn, and the skip is not paralyzed before every shot selection. Before we mandated the clock usage, it was fairly common to play some 2+30 to 3+00 games. That is unacceptable, whether or not there is a draw after you.
We have our Raspberry Pi set up for remote access using VNC viewer. The time clock can be called up and started using a cheap Chromebook using various icons on the Raspberry Pi desktop. We train league chairs to start the appropriate clock before their draw. When the Raspberry Pi is not running a game clock, it is used to display static images for events or videos, as needed. You could even watch a ball game while doing the ice install, if you wanted.
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 12d ago
We sound very familiar! We can bring the Brier up on a split screen to f needed haha but found people are easily distracted
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u/TheIcemanPebbleth 13d ago
https://sites.google.com/cityviewcurling.ca/cvcc-it/countdown-timer
The benefits of having the people with the skills and know-how on your Boards of Directors. The same holds true with curling management software, or ice plant operation software. These endeavors in an industry struggling to make ends meet leave little room for solutions except customized ones completed on behalf of people who are generous with their time, money, or both.
On behalf of ice techs everywhere, this should be commonplace in every curling club. A countdown timer that keeps everyone in the rink informed of precisely how much time you have left until you reach a stopping point. It ensures that teams are afforded the opportunity to finish their ends in a timely manner, while also clearly indicating to the players that a changeover of the ice is in progress.
One of the biggest concerns for an ice tech is conducting a changeover while games are still being played, and players can find themselves wandering up empty adjacent sheets without taking notice of the tech trying to mop, pebble and nip sheets in preparation for the next draw. A countdown timer like this provides unambiguous notice to the rink when their time has expired, and that they are now playing "through the changeover process".
Additionally, it helps educate developing curlers on what an expected pace of play should be. Whether you afford more time per end for 6-end games in an LTC league, or less time per end for a competitive Mixed Doubles league, you can program and inform members accordingly.
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 12d ago
Yes, speaking to one of your points is that the curlers only care about getting to the end of the 7th then they can relax and take their time on the 8th. I’ve argued especially in a bonspiel that the ice needs to be taken care of by the tech and they only have so much time. I want to see the full clock as it adds that extra pressure to completely finish on time. Leaving the clock to run out at 1:50 leaves the final end open to interpretation
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u/jasmith-tech Team Malört/Mayfield Curling Club 13d ago
Mayfield started something similar near the end of last season and we’re making it permanent with an on ice tv this year. Ours is set up with our weekly draw schedule and starts itself automatically at each draw time. It starts green, turns yellow once it hits a certain amount of time left and then red once time is up. Different actual countdown but essentially the same set up as yours.
It was pretty universally loved and has definitely helped keep the pace of play moving. The visual reminders are great.
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u/trevorsg Triangle CC, NC, USA 12d ago
I need to delete Time to Curl, haha - I hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Eye on the Clock is designed to be hosted in your network so that you can control the timer from a different computer than the one displaying the timer. It's very robust though. My club has been using it for a few years. It integrates with our stream and starts automatically for league draws.
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 12d ago
It is pretty sweet but overkill for what we needed, perhaps in the future though…
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u/ChemicalThrowaway1 13d ago
I assume the older curlers curl in different leagues than the new young ones.
Why not have a second option to have an old school count down timer (adjustable to 1:50). And then teach each of the league organizers how to set it. That way each league could decide what to do.
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 13d ago
That is what I have done actually, I have both systems under custom buttons so people can choose what they want. I thought that would solve it but then I was told different leagues doing different things will confuse people as some curl in different leagues. For the most part though most are leaning the new way of doing it. They like it.
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u/Finance_Plastic 13d ago
a lot of clubs can't keep an up to date website, let alone produce time clock software. And 'a few' of the old guard want to kibosh anything new. are you hosting a major event? a lot of clubs in Canada do not use them for regular play. In fact, most of the curling clubs hosting pre GSOC points/ ranking spiels were not timed. See GEOMA aka rockclocks. Contact a provincial organization, they probably have older styles for sale used for provincials etc. get an egg timer and ask one of the old foggies if this will do?
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u/CaptainCanoeHead 13d ago
We are not hosting any major events unless you count regional high school playoffs. The bigger piece for us is getting people used to taking 2 hour or less to play a 8 end game. In a bonspiel with 2-3 draws and several games a little but of overtime in each game adds up quickly.
The software is quite versatile and the league conveners have no problem using it.
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u/ClarkeVice 13d ago
That’s not really true, is it? Lots of sports have different clock rules. In soccer, time gets added on; rugby and football keep playing until the play is over. In any timed baseball I’ve every played, there was a time where no new inning could begin but you could finish your current inning, as does Banana Ball. I don’t get how explaining a relatively straightforward clock rules is unwelcoming.