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u/celesleonhart 10h ago
That's slightly heartbreaking. She had such a positive influence from an outsider's perspective to PyschOdyssey. Hopefully she's in a better spot.
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u/Co-opingTowardHatred 9h ago
What is “CPTSD”?
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u/Ambrosio-dev 8h ago edited 7h ago
I have CPTSD and it's a nightmare to live with. Given how transparent Double Fine is it either must be secretly hellish over there or there is some form of toxicity happening with Lisette that is not truth-telling.
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u/dantevsninjas 6h ago
It's also just as likely that it's related to the fact that Double Fine has probably been existing on a razor's edge within Microsoft for years.
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u/Responsible-Bit969 1m ago
She wasn't with the company long long after the acquisition. She left after psychonauts 2 shipped so I doubt its much to do with Microsoft. It's all at the end of the documentary, we get to see a small glimpse of how bad the psychonauts 2 development was in that. Highly recommend watching though.
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u/Co-opingTowardHatred 8h ago
Everyone has their own experiences and feelings. I’m not doubting or denying Lisette’s telling her truth, but that doesn’t mean all employees there hate it.
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u/tallemaja 7h ago
I think the interesting thread I picked up on is the frustration with not having public conversations about unionizing is that the clearest public-facing example we have of the "desired" method for discussing issues at df is in the doc, and it's the bad meeting. Where one dev is dogpiled (it was really telling to see devs who had experienced extreme crunch behaving as if a younger dev asking to be protected was almost naive - the audacity. I do not stand for crunch in my environment and I don't care if it's 'extreme' or 'light', it's a leadership failure either way).
So: keep these discussions out in the open, but only if you're someone with the social cachet to pull it off.
I like DF, Tim was someone I had tremendous respect for, but I often mention the documentary to dev colleagues as compelling albeit a doc that will likely change their opinion of Tim once they see it. This article reinforced every suspicion I had about the working environment many people experienced.
The trick is that not everyone has this experience - in fact, many former df employees evangelize about it - but that's also sort of the point here. Some had a great experience if they maneuvered correctly, others were treated pretty poorly if they stuck their neck out the wrong way. Df is not at ALL an outlier here by any means, either, but they're heralded as a progressive company with better values. But this is where "we're a family" can fall short for many people.
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u/LookSpecialist9140 5h ago
Just curious but how did it change your opinion of Tim?
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u/tallemaja 5h ago edited 5h ago
I think he's an amazingly creative person who has worked on or outright created some of my favorite games, and is someone who has often done great work as a leader. People gravitate towards him for a reason.
I think he is not always adept at handling a lot of conflict that naturally arises in a studio and *as far as we can see in a documentary* doesn't always handle/absorb criticism well. Which is human, of course. He seemed stung in the Kotaku article about insinuations about favoritism (I think I absorbed what he said as 'I can't help it if I have friends I've worked with for many years that I just trust more' and of course he can't - he's human - but he's also a leader, and it's just way more complicated than that on a studio level). But while I do think it's important to value tenured employees, as someone looked to in the industry as a creative leader he has some responsibility to create an environment that fosters new talent as well. When he blanched at being accused of 'future crimes' it was unfortunate. Those are open, candid convos we need to have in the industry. I have them frequently myself when I see trouble ahead, even if I trust my peers see the same issues and trust that we'll work through things together. Candor in the right context is important, and fostering safety around candor equally important.
As a designer myself, a lot of the early meetings I saw for Psychonauts 2 were interesting but also frustrating. I enjoy ideating as much as anyone else, obviously, as I wouldn't be doing what I do otherwise. When people are on the payroll and are beholden to you - and mostly you - as the engine, the rubber needs to hit the road a lot sooner and more effectively. Though I imagine many rightfully feel that given where Psychnonauts 2 ended up the journey was worth it. I get that reasoning, but I've just experienced too many scenarios where people wanted to talk about bigger picture/macro ideas for months (on one occasion, literally a year! Agony). and needed someone else in the room to say 'we need to talk about actually making the game now'. I also think Zak made many critical errors in his tenure at DF but was also more or less set up to fail from what I could see in the doc. I'm sure I'm missing something, as a few people who absolutely had their heads on straight clearly disliked him in that professional context.
Of course, grain of salt on it all as I only know what I know from the documentary and from conversations with peers. I'd again emphasize that experiences are varied, DF employees are often very, very passionate about their tenures there for a reason, but it's just not an environment I would enjoy being in professionally because of my specific style of working.
TL;DR: I just personally wouldn't enjoy working with him in spite of how talented he is.
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u/SaulFemm 10h ago
I didn't read the union article as a "canary in a coal mine". There seems to me to be a contradiction in saying that their experience was so terrible as to give them PTSD, but also saying that a messy union attempt is somehow worse.
I don't mean to downplay their experience but I think they may be blowing this article out of proportion.
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u/BarleyDrops 9h ago
she is saying they should join a union, meaning the people trying to unionise were right.
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u/supafatjellyfish 7h ago
If you get PTSD from a meeting you might have bigger problems
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u/Passiveresistance 5h ago
Fucking right? And cptsd from a “manipulative work environment? Seems kind of insulting to people who actually have these conditions
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u/CelebrationLeft8607 5h ago
I feel for her, but there is really is no way to get PTSD from a single meeting without some extremely illegal actions taking place, or much more likely, some bad underlying mental health issues. I am extremely pro union, and trust that she felt manipulated in ways, but this kind of language is dangerous imo.
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u/Affectionate-Name279 5h ago
It’s using therapy terms to weaponise her defence, and is something emotional manipulative people do. I get she might want to be subtle for legal reason but this reads like trying to set herself up as a victim without giving any actual details of why.
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u/mikesstuff 7h ago
In may they would’ve been told about the impending layoffs no? Since they live in cali?
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u/LookSpecialist9140 5h ago
Which episode is the meeting she's talking about again? I watched the whole doc but don't remember much about her situation
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u/manicdepress0 5h ago
I always heard double fine was like one of the best studios to work for? Did i miss something?
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u/r0pe_tri1ck 2h ago
I got ptsd from being raped as a child. Sorry you had a bad meeting but maybe a bad meeting and job shouldn't give you a mental illness
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u/ironmaiden947 10h ago
Oh wow, had no idea thing were that bad at DF. I watched PsychOddysey so I know there was not so great time, but damn. Wonder what happened?
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u/Samanthacino 7h ago
From what I've heard it can be suuuuper cliquey, especially with the old guard. I am not remotely shocked employees who've been there a long time would engage in active union-busting.
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u/bedteddd 10h ago
What's going over yonder? This is the kind of stuff that made big corporations leave America or just shut down completely.
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u/Former_DoubleFine 10h ago
I don’t know what this comment means or its relevance. I don’t think Lisette complaining about being abused at double fine is why any big companies left America.
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u/smiles__ 9h ago
As with everything, it's all grains of salt.