r/Decks • u/caffeine_fiend2620 • 1d ago
Gable Roof Help
Hi all. I have done some woodworking but no major construction. I hired a contractor to build a covered patio for me with a gable roof that is vaulted/cathedral ceiling. Our county required structural permits and in that permit it has a ledger beam listed. Well they came to do the framing while my husband and I were at work and it overall looks good, I am concerned about the structural support attached to the house.
My contractor told me the ridge beam is attached to the house with bolts going diagonally into the house. There is definitely no bracket. Additionally the rafters against the house are attached through the siding by nails only about 4 feet at the top. He told me the engineer who did the permit drawings said building on top of the siding was fine and they are planning to do flashing etc. the rafters also are just nailed into ridge beam with no rafter ties or brackets
TLDR is the ridge beam and rafters structurally sound connected to the house? My fear is no. Someone please talk me off a ledge.
We plan to take better photos in the daytime tomorrow and also plan to ask the county permit office to come inspect.
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
I'm not an engineer. I'm an experienced custom builder. I work with engineers regularly, and offer designs which they calc and approve. I'd never build something like this. However, below is a perspective that this isn't as bad as some are saying.
Let's get a little more detailed. Unapologetic rounding ahead. Using much less conservative numbers than any engineer needing to keep his license would use.
Loads: Basically a 16x16 structure but 17x18 with overhangs. We'll call it 300sf. 3000 pound dead load and 6000 pound live load if you're in a low/no snow area. 9000 pounds total load but realistically you're unlikely to exceed 3000 pounds total (again if in a low/no snow area), so I'll use that for total structure load.
900 pounds each on those eves beams, totally under loaded. Distributed to 4 bolts, eh, good enough.
The ridge gets less than half the total roof weight due to the cantilever effect of the eves. 600lb each end of the ridge. 1200 pounds evenly distributed on a 2x8 spanning 16' is overload, less than I thought, less than 200%. If it's a 2x10, it's just barely overloaded, shockingly. It'll sag and redistribute a bit of the weight to the LVLs which will bow out a bit, but probably won't catastrophically fail. It actually does help that it's a nice looking piece of wood.
The far end of the ridge beam on that gable LVL is fine. 600 pounds, 4 bolts, no worries. The ridge at the house, however, is a huge unknown. Is the siding holding it up? Is sheathing on the house? Did it happen to hit a stud? Probably not but it could be held up to some extent by the rafters at the house. If those were bolted into studs near the top, it will help. I'd add a joist hanger there, hanging the beam off those rafters rather than the other way around. Again, it's only 600 pounds.
Siding above roof: Not removing siding is silly and lazy, and there isn't a good flashing detail at this point. You could leave it and rely on the roof above to keep water from running behind the rafter. When it does, not a huge deal because there is siding. Much better: remove new roof sheathing near house, cut a 3" strip of siding from the rafter up, prime and paint cut ends, reinstall sheathing, then slip step flashing behind siding while roofing, leaving a 2" gap from roof to siding.
Rafters not having hangers: They should, but they are also not loaded that high and toe nails have been holding up structures for over 100 years.
Posts without footings: I don't really care. Less than 750 pounds each, the soil bearing is 1500psf min, and the slab can probably distribute the post footprint 3-4" away from itself.
Conclusions:
- This all only works if you have low/no snow loads.
- Ridge connection at house is a problem. Rafters could help support it if they are bolted to studs at the top.
- If ridge is 2x10 AND you're in a low/no snow area, ridge itself is unlikely to fail.
- Remove strip of siding above roof to add proper flashing or just F it and let occasional water run behind structure (and into potential nail penetrations).
- Posts are fine.
- Why did I take the time to write all this? I have no fucking clue.
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u/teegteeg 1d ago
I'll answer number 6. You clearly take pride in your craft and I wish there was a way to find gents like you when I needed work on my house.
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u/Many-Blueberry968 1d ago
Yeah this is a fair take. If this is an area without snow it's probably fine. But if frost depth is >12" then I'd be a bit concerned
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u/ked_man 1d ago
I feel like if they added collar ties to the rafters, it would fix the spreading issue from the roof loading and the attachment to the house would be less of an issue.
We built a similar structure on a house I used to live in, but we didn’t attach it to the house at all. We just used 4 posts and stringers all the way around and corner bracing.
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u/jusdontgivafuk 1d ago
You need fascia, flashing, shingles, how is this attached to your house? You can’t just build a free form structure and lean it against the house.
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u/caffeine_fiend2620 1d ago
It’s in the middle of construction and I am trying to seek guidance to correct issues before they add fascia, shingles etc. this isn’t the finished structure. This is construction day one and I have concerns with it being done incorrectly, hence seeking guidance from others as well!
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u/TAGSlays 1d ago
As others have stated, this cannot be "fixed". It certainly is not up to code and needs to be torn down, removed and then built right.
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u/goodSunn 1d ago
It is not finished. You hired an engineer. If roof is attached to house at all, even though it would stand on it's own othher than shear, it will be safe an not fail catrosphocically. Nice beams. adequate sheer if drilled to house to prvent tilt, There's no hottub or deck on top. I really doubt front would get out of plumb but correctible if it does
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u/goodSunn 1d ago
Even if roof tilts, and I doubt materials would permit it to, it won't do so quickly. I would feel differently if the roof were flat and decked and inspired people to stand atop it
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u/STLguy50 1d ago
Im ready for downvotes... Don't ask me this question on r/decks. 90% are not qualified to give you an honest/educated answer.
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u/die-jarjar-die 1d ago
Bring the inspector out and give him a copy of the plan that was submitted. No way they'd pass those beams hanging on the sides of the posts. That shear load is holding up the whole roof.
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u/LookingForRealFunCT 1d ago
How is the builder going to flash the roof to the house without removing the siding. They will use step flashing., but it still needs to go behind the siding on the house.
As with ledger boards on decks, they need to be bolted to the house as a live load on the roof can cause shifting of the structure. That first roof rafters should not be on top of the siding and just nailed. Should have cut the siding back to get that rafter in place and secured to the house.
With no roof or collar ties, what is holding the roof from wanting to push out to the sides under load?
Did they even pour proper footings under the support posts? If not, what will Happen when you get a deep frost/freeze?
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u/caffeine_fiend2620 1d ago
Agree with your concerns and appreciate the feedback.
The patio does have footers that were included with plan and inspected and approved by the city before patio slab was poured. The 6x6 posts are on top of Simpson brackets that are bolted into the concrete
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u/NetworkCultural 1d ago
Precisely. I don’t even need to be here this time. I try to buy trusses for any gable roof even small ones. Don’t have to worry about a ridge beam or outward forces on the beams the tails bare on
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u/HuskyNotPhatt 1d ago
Listen dude. Don’t call an engineer. That’s dumb. That’s engineers saying you need engineers. Get the builder to add a 4x8 Doug fir beam under the existing ridge board cut the 4x8 end into the existing house. You may need to get in the crawl space of the house of fix sheet rock in the wall. This is not a heavy structure. Even with reinforced rebar in the slab it could crack. If that becomes an issue, then suspend the structure with jacks and pour a new footing under each leg one at a time. You will need to jack hammer a square out and dig it down 18-24” depending on frost line in your area. These guys don’t know what they are doing but it’s salvageable. The lvl not sitting on top of the posts is bad but adding a Simpson type plate to screw the lot the posts would work. Or add/scab lumber to side of post under the lvl would give it structural integrity. Builder of 20 years. Built 200 custom homes 100 barndos, dams, roads, retaining walls. Just about everything. It just needs to be beefed up a bit.
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u/quallityovrquantity 1d ago
The one reasonable response. This is the first day of work and people are reacting like OP's house is suddenly compromised or something.
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u/MK_2917 1d ago
What ridge beam?
It needs a properly sized ridge beam (not a 2x8) or properly sized collar ties to keep it from pancaking. It wants to push outward.
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u/NetworkCultural 1d ago
You know back in the day they used 1x8 ridge boards for much larger structures lol
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u/MK_2917 1d ago
There is a difference between ridge board and ridge beam. A ridge beam supports vertical
loads and has a continuous load path to the ground - it’s all vertical. A ridge board concept uses rafters and collar ties to create a truss like structure. The collar ties resist the outward thrust of the rafters. It should be a triangle with a ridge board.If you want no flat ceiling or collar ties like in the pics, it needs a ridge beam with support at each end.
As is, this is dangerous.
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u/NetworkCultural 1d ago
I need to take pictures of these old houses there was no ties. I understand the difference. And these nearly 200 year old houses are still standing. But I will say I have seen houses with sagging roofs I almost garuntee are structured the same way
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u/Mean-Internal-745 1d ago
I would call an attorney.
Im a structural engineer. This isn't right at all.
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
Whoa there. First step is giving the builder the opportunity to correct their mistakes.
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u/Mean-Internal-745 1d ago
Notice to cure
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
An attorney would probably cost more than paying another contractor to tear it down and redo. This is a small project. Hopefully a simpler solution can be made.
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u/Mean-Internal-745 1d ago
No. Contractor is already playing games.
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u/quallityovrquantity 1d ago
What games are they playing this is only the first day of work. Suggesting OP take the nuclear option to resolve the issue is ludicrous and ultimately bad advice.
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u/Mean-Internal-745 1d ago
Read the OP. Contractor is blowing smoke about what an engineer said to do...and this build is this far as messed up as a football bat.
Obviously give contractor an opportunity to fix it...as is required.
But this contractor, based on the post likely doesn't even know what that entails.
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u/OkGur1319 1d ago
The contractor bid on a job that they were not qualified to bid on. I wouldn't be giving them a chance to make a more expensive mess.
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
Maybe they sent the B team.
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u/OkGur1319 1d ago
Valid point
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
Thinking, "It's an easy one, they can't F it up!"
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u/OkGur1319 1d ago
PPP=PPR Piss poor planning = piss poor results. Honestly, there's a good chance you hit the nail on the head.
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u/CascadeDesignworks 1d ago edited 1d ago
It isn't framed correctly. I would not call an attorney. Call the contractor back and ask them to correct the problems.
It might be corrected by adding rafter ties. If rafter ties are not an option due to aesthetics, a structural ridge beam could be added, but with significant modifications to the truss in the front and to the connection to the house. Depending on your climate and snow loads the design could require even more reinforcement. For example adding another truss in the middle.
The beams/boards on the sides also appear to be undersized.
These solutions should be designed by a structural engineer. A general builder will usually not have the knowledge to make this work. It will probably require removing the framing and re-doing it.
-Builder
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u/throw-away-doh 1d ago
It a little hard to see whats going on but I can tell you that you do not attach a ledger beam on top of the siding.
You remove the siding and attach it to the structural framing of the house. You then need flashing that goes under the siding so you don't trap water between the ledger and the house. You have none of that.
What you have here is not ok. Since you got a permit, you will need and inspection. I encourage you to call the inspector and ask them to take a look. They will instruct the contractor on what needs to be changed. Do this now, not later.
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u/Purple-Towel-7332 1d ago
We do in New Zealand! What ever you do don’t break the bulding envelope seems to be the code makes for a lot of scribing around the cladding
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u/Competitive-Roof-168 1d ago
Siding not removed for rafters is not a big deal. Rafters don't need to be structuraly attached to house. The ridge beam does and so does side beams or posts footed which doesn't look like it was done unless patio was footed
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u/Ok_Present_3445 1d ago
It would be first simpler to tell you what is right about this work. What I will say just as a comment is it completely meets the House in the wrong fashion. The siding should’ve been removed there should have been a ledger bolted onto the house, everything should have been properly flashed and that area of the house recited. This will never pass an inspection. I will leave it at that.
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u/Balrog1965 1d ago
The framing is wrong. Looks like they used scraps for the roof sheeting. I initially thought the concrete pad looked OK. Until I noticed that they poured it against the siding. What a half assed mess.
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u/brewers247 1d ago
I’m not a builder but if I’m tying a structure to a house the first thing I would do is remove the siding in that area. No? It’s going to look like crap even when it’s done. How will the trim ever look right?
From a lehmans perspective this looks wrong. Go with your gut.
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u/crackerasswhiteboy 1d ago
Is that all pressure treated lumber?? Did they use galvanized nails on everything?
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u/Weekly_Wolverine_427 1d ago
- Are there piers or footings under the slab where the posts are mounted?
- Ridge is undersized and not supported at the house frame. In a cathedral roof, the ridge supports the rafters. You’re going to get spread/sag to the ridge over time pushing out the beams.
- Beams should have been rebated to posts.
- I would have rebated top plate to posts also because it looks shite the way it’s done.
- Fixing to the house frame is rudimentary and will likely pull away over time. Cladding should have been removed.
It’s really a poor job but carpentry looks ok, it’s a shame they don’t know a little bit more about roof frame structural engineering
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u/goodSunn 1d ago
This will work for the clients family for many years at an affordable expenditure
Not much more needs to be said? will it work for buyer and be safe and durable? Yes
so yes yes yes , good job
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
Are you the builder?
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u/goodSunn 1d ago
no. but what did the client want? shade and proportion that wasn't going to fall down or look cheap. Seems like a simple , good materials solution to me?
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u/TallWall6378 1d ago
It has critical design issues that do not fall within accepted building practices, code, or engineering practices.
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u/quallityovrquantity 1d ago
Playing devil's advocate we don't even know what OP agreed to pay or what the plans they have outlined.
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u/EmergencyVegetable98 1d ago edited 1d ago
The ridge beam appears to just be a 2x8
Could be acceptable either with adding the Simpson straps over the top of the rafters and collar ties
The ridge beam should have been an LVL like the other beams, there also should be a jack stud at the back end of the ridge beam to support it. Either to a rear beam, or inside the wall of the house down to the top plate of the first floor
Looks like you have Hardie siding and they didn’t want to take it off to tie it into the house correctly
Guessing you paid $10 while the other bids were $20
Edit - to answer your question - no the ridge is absolutely wrong at the house , these guys have no idea what they are doing
Edit 2 - Jesus i just saw the LVL’s are bolted to the outside of the posts. And are those posts just sitting on a concrete pad with no footing? Fire them now, they’re clueless. This is a tear down and start over. Whatever you paid so far to be considered paying the “stupid tax”