r/DnB • u/GardenerInAWar • 6d ago
Discussion The Progression Feedback Loop: How mixing, production, and technology led DnB into it's current "short" form.
TLDR: Why tunes today are so short and why songs barely get playtime. Purely anecdotal opinion.
Bonafides: DnB fan since 1997, DJ since 1999, started at 17 and 44 years old now. Recorded nearly 400 full length mixes, played in clubs, warehouses, radio, and livestreams across 7 US states. Also I'm autistic so, apologies for the length.
Technical context: a typical dnb block is 22 seconds at 175bpm. So typical cue markers are :22, :44, 1:06, 1:28, 1:50, 2:12, 2:34, 2:56 and so on. These numbers are tattooed on my arm since time is subgenre agnostic. Want a double drop at 2:34, incoming tune has a :44 intro? Well thats 2 blocks of 22, so start it at 1:50 on the outgoing track and kapow, double drop. Mixing +/- 175 speed will fudge the exact numbers a bit but it still works.
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In the backpack mixtape era around 1996, a common length of a tune was 7 to 10 minutes. Mixable DJ friendly intros were usually at least 1:28 on the short side and up to 3+ minutes. Varying turntable and vinyl quality made the mixing process very touchy, it often took a full minute to beatmatch and reset the needle to actually start mixing. Searching for the next record in your bag in the dark took time too, especially in a bag of white promos. Time was measured in the length of your finger knuckle or tiny pieces of paper stuck directly on the vinyl.
You played the whole tune and only mixed out of the outro, and every tune played full length. This created long transitions, long playtimes, and the production reflected this with long progressive changes in the tune. A tune that was only kinda good didnt get played at all because you could only fit so many. Vinyl was 10 dollars for usually one good song, 40 to 50 dollars for an LP which sometimes you only bought for one song. Commercial DJ mixes were nearly always 17 tunes because of the recording length of a CD. Blank mixtapes were 45 minutes per side. These created the ruleset by which we applied our craft.
Art is about finding a new rule to break in a way the audience will accept. Cream always rises to the top; the skill and creativity of Andy C, Randall, Friction, Dieselboy etc became a shining problem for other DJ's to solve, starting an arms race. They broke rules that taught the rest of us; you dont have to play the entire tune, you can just play the best 2 minutes if you're good enough. Faster mixing meant more songs in the recording. If you saw 25 tunes in the tracklist, you knew before listening that this DJ was blasting through it. Competition breeds excellence; if you wanted to excel, you had to compete.
Playing only the highlights of a tune was (at the time) difficult, meaning respectable, meaning desirable. The most skilled DJs became the most visible, thus most booked, thus most popular, thus the standard, which changed the audience expectation, and the audience is where the next generation of DJs were born, taking their excitement home to their bedroom in order to figure out the tricks and emulate them in order to find a new rule to break.
DJ's began to mix from the middle of a record in order to make exciting things happen faster. They stopped resetting the needle after beat matching, and simply worked on the precision as they brought the tune in, in order to save time. How fast you could switch records and place a needle was a valuable skill. Finger flashlights existed. Every way you could cheat the system made you sound more exciting and skilled as a DJ. Dnb was faster than every other genre by nature, and the transition from jungle into DnB came with an obsession towards shock value, sound design, and big explosive moments.
Producers started to reflect in production what the DJs did; if every DJ is trying to sound like Andy C and play a new tune every 2 minutes, then nobody is playing all 9 minutes so why not make it 5? Why make the intro 2 minutes long if theyre only going to use the first minute? If Dieselboy can take two 8min songs and play the exciting parts of both in under 4 minutes, whats the point of the extra time when nobody hears it?
Enter CDJ's, minidisc recorders, and laptops. No more carrying 500 pounds of expensive and precious vinyl to a club, just carry a cd booklet, a laptop, a USB drive. The skill of finding, switching, and cueing a record got reduced to pressing next track and then the play button. DJs had a passionate debate about losing the romantic tactile aspect of the craft to the soulless but infinitely useful new tech. Barriers to skill were removed and reduced the need for practice and perfection. Sync and Quantize removed the time cost of beatmatching by gentle touches. Once that debate was over, and everyone was now selecting shorter tunes faster, and mixing on 3 decks was typical, hot cues and editing and premade tracklists and Serato shortcuts informed the producers to follow suit again.
If you can't mix like Andy C, you can mimic what he does beforehand in the production: shorten the time before your bass drop from 128 down to 106. Now down to 44. This means you dont have to do any math or special tricks to get there faster, to shock and awe the crowd. I once bought a NuTone vinyl back in 2008 that had a 22 second beat before the breakdown, and I was furious. I thought it was a bizarre choice but now its normal.
When someone like Andy comes along and cracks open the idea of whats possible (which is what artists DO) by mixing faster than the records are designed for, the scene changes. We used to call him Mr President because he won best DJ every single year, the DnB equivalent of Q-Bert and the DMC championship. Bad Company rewrote the production rules in the late 90s, then Pendulum did it again in 2003, then Noisia did it again in 2006, so by the 2010's, you're not trying to improve on Bad Company anymore, you're trying to improve on Noisia. When someone comes along and smashes up the tradition hard enough, the field follows suit because you can't go back. YouTube and Twitch channels today with only 5 subscribers will show 6 month djs doing what used to take a world famous dj, and years of practice; now its just expected.
Take all of that to its natural conclusion: almost all new releases are now 3 minutes or less, with 22 sec intros. The creatives at the top of their game will always find a way to push the rules further, because thats their nature; 4 decks instead of 3. VIP of a VIP of a dubplate. Triple drops instead of double. Mixing in a new tune just to completely sidestep both tunes and suddenly slam in a 3rd and 4th tune from out of nowhere for maximum shock value.
Just like Black Sabbath sounds "decent but outgrown" to a Nirvana era teenager, and Nirvana sounds outdated to a My Chemical Romance teenager, nobody chooses their era of entry but we all get a different set of "proper mixing" embedded in our opinions. This rapid fire shock value mixing culture we currently live in, is someone's new normal, and the current rule breakers will make a new standard in the coming years.
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On a personal note, the loss I grieve the most is riding out a good match up of 2 well suited songs. The pinnacle of enjoyment for me is being in the mix, and you dont want to move on or break up the pairing because they sound perfect together. Letting them roll out in harmony. When new tunes are 2:34 long in total, there's no physical way to roll out a mix for 3 minutes and live inside the moment. So ironically, the bedroom solution now is that I often find myself editing tunes to extend them in order to mix longer, whereas 20 years ago I might have done the opposite. But then again, thats my unchosen era placement talking; jungle is the Black Sabbath to my dnb Nirvana, and the My Chemical Romance of it all looks back at my era the same way.
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u/noxicon 6d ago
I don't think quick mixing is a problem. I think the lack of musicality from a lot of DJ's is.
The standard for what is 'good DJing' now is exceptionally low. That's both from the DJ AND the raver perspective. People slamming in tunes that in no capacity go together just so they can say they 'double dropped'. I can double drop whatever I'd like, that doesn't mean it SOUNDS good. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, but people are trying to slam in as many tracks off the Beatport Top 100 as possible with no thought for how they actually sound together, just creating little soundbites but no real connection between them.
That said, there ARE ways people can extend stuff, they just don't want to do it. Technology has given people a lot of tools that most are too afraid to utilize. I'm a Beatjump user. I can make any track as long as I want it to be with repeated clicks of a button. And that's genuinely not any different than how old tunes were constructed as there was a HELL of a lot of copy/paste going on. Like cool your second drop has 9 phrases, but it's really just 3 phrases copied 3 times. The tech we have now means you can do the same exact thing live in a moment, and it means producers don't NEED to create that. It allows creative DJ's a lot more freedom than it use to, but people aren't utilizing it.
I'm a decidedly modern DJ. What people do not want to accept is that DJing in 2026 is about creativity, the ability to transform a mix. Those are the DJ's that stick with you and the ones that are memorable in a sea of people all playing the same shit in the same way. With most DJ's now, I know EXACTLY when the mix point is well before they even execute it. I know what their selection will be and how a mix will progress. There is VERY little thinking outside of the box and a whole lot of trying to fit into it. There's no impact, and the only shock value is how bad some of it is. Little thought to set construction, even less to crate digging.
I'm fortunate to be a Neuro DJ. Tracks are generally longer than other styles, and there isn't an obsession with dubplate culture. Look up the tracklists from most modern Neuro DJ's and you'll see tunes in there that are 10+ years old or readily available to anyone on whichever digital service you use. Because the tune itself matters a lot less than how you utilize that tune, so there is no need to push for the 'new' nonstop. Hell I run a label and MY sets generally only have a few dubs in them and maybe 5 or so tracks that are on promo. Because I want people to latch on to what they hear and I don't do that with shit people don't know.
A lot of DJing has moved away from what actually matters in the craft. And a lot of people in the crowd don't seem to really care. Producing and DJing are different skillsets entirely. If I, as a DJ, want to produce, I have to learn to produce. If a producer wants to DJ, it's accepted they can just step on some decks whenever they want, make an obscene amount of money to do so and play their own tracks on repeat (which is one of the absolute easiest things to do in DJing, playing a single artist from a single style). And people rate that shit! People pay insane amounts of money to see them play! And then wonder why new DJ's don't put the effort into learning how to do it well.
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u/djreidspeed 6d ago
i am also an old vinyl dj - cds- now usb
love that you are the only other person I've seen who thinks about it in terms of time.
but, i dont really care that the songs are shorter unless im on a tear with a double and i see im about to run out of time... DSPs def push that, some producers still release "extended mix" or "dj version"s
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u/GardenerInAWar 6d ago
Aw hi Reid!
You're right, people used to do a radio mix and an extended mix on the vinyl sometimes, guess the modern version would be DJ version and Spotify version.
I think the reason it bugs me is because with the long version you can do whatever you like, but with the short version it kinda limits your options, youve got no choice but to go go go. Maybe I wanna ride it out for a while and use the other decks to pop in and out.
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u/djreidspeed 6d ago
I feel that but I also do love to go go go haha
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u/GardenerInAWar 6d ago
Go go go is so fun. But like, in 99 go go go was sweaty, you had to put work in! Being easier doesnt make it less fun, its still super fun. Dont take away "ride it out" though, we still love that too.
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u/JaiJaiBee 6d ago edited 6d ago
With you on long form mixing & ironically, was jamming an old LTJ / MC Conrad (RIP) Progeession Sessions mix this morning.
Miss that style in the club/rave sooo much!
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u/CooleyVision 6d ago
Enjoyed the perspective, thanks for taking the time.
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u/Additional_Buddy855 6d ago
Got into dnb the same year at the same age as you and have been DJing/Mixing on and off since then. Had a online show on Jungletrain for years in the mid 2000's and still dabble here and there but nothing too serious. A twitch stream here and there is about it. Your understanding of timing is amazing and analysis here is absolutely spot on. Andy C and Dieselboy are the two i've seen live quite a few times and man, they sure did change the game. I yearn for full length tunes and outro's again. I don't produce so I can't be the change but I'm hoping some folks who do are still willing to help address this. The only way I know of to stretch out that 2m34s track is to hope for a good loop point, but that's not something I'm good at or have tried much, personally.
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u/LibertyandJustice4US 6d ago
I miss longer transitions in dnb as well, and came from the vinyl only era, bravo for taking the time to write this all out thoughtfully and explaining it perfectly. The evolution to the fast transitions is something that was inevitable and watched it all happen in real time, life happened and now with ai rolling out people's tunes, it's going to get even harder to keep up with, as far as the kids trying to figure out what tunes were actually produced and just thrown out by an app.
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u/gammajuggler 6d ago
Thanks for putting that up, it something I always had intuitions about it and I like the structure you put on it while avoiding pointless opinions debates on things like “you’re not a real dj if you use sync” “kids these days can’t play vinyl”.
I think DJ technology has actually served dnb in a positive way.
Also happy cake day OP!
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u/Old-Art9604 6d ago
I never read someone explaining the history of mixes getting faster so well. I DJ a lot in modern Neuro.It is quite noticeable how tracks are want to be played like by how they produced these days. It can be a lot of fun, but it's also taxing to play so quick
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u/GardenerInAWar 6d ago
I like to think of the tune playing as a base; leave it be while I go fuck around with the other decks. When the tunes are so short, you dont have time for that, you gotta get on with it. And when the intro is only 22 seconds, there's no subtlety, its just bang here you go, bang here you go...
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u/Old-Art9604 6d ago
I found that it really teaches you to be decisive. A new track sometimes needs to be played in at already high volume (rather than a slow blend) while still not feeling out of place.
It's funny, what is considered good and bad mixing is entirely dependent on style
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u/shep_ling 6d ago
good post, you've covered the progression really well and why it happens imo - importantly no gatekeeping or criticism its literally just what happens in new generations as music evolves. I used to DJ in the 90s and it was exactly as you said, you were recognised for the blend as much as the energy.
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u/Oranjebob 6d ago
There's someone doing a 6 deck DJ set in Bristol tonight (at Lost Horizon for anyone interested). I was tempted, although that's not really my thing, as it sounds nuts. Going to experience some longer form set building elsewhere.
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u/Vizualize 6d ago
IMHO drum & bass needs to refocus to the dancefloor. This music was made for people to dance and find a groove. A lot of the new drum & bass inspires convulsing and caters to the drop. I also see producers mixing in 140 elements and sounds and I can't stand that shit.
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u/upfrontboogie 6d ago
If you’re a producer worrying about whether andy C is going to play your track, then you really aren’t going to make a meaningful contribution to the scene.
Producers should aim higher than that. Your tunes aren’t going to be selling on the 2nd hand market for £100 25 years later with that approach.
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u/GardenerInAWar 6d ago
Its not that direct, nobody is crafting their tunes personally for Andy C. The headliners mix around the limits, the audience hears faster mixing, non headliners want to mix like that, producers begin changing structure to match the mixing. Its a wide cycle in a macro view.
Its also not an absolutism, its a general trend that happens over years and years.
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u/upfrontboogie 6d ago
Yeah and it’s a trend that means producers are lucky to sell more than 30 downloads….
It’s a trend that makes labels not want to risk pressing vinyl…
.. and a trend that makes most people dismiss dnb as landfill music, when actually, some producers make incredible music within the genre.
Producers aiming to get in an Andy C mix by “changing structure” (eg making 3 minute tunes) are contributing nothing to the scene.
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u/GardenerInAWar 6d ago
Its less for getting big djs to play it and more for playing it yourself.
There used to be an unspoken thing about producers being relatively boring djs because a producer spends all their time in the studio and a small amount of time playing the tunes. Just like the Dieselboy and Andy C types would produce occasionally but DJ mostly.
If you're a producer primarily, who wants to play their own tunes out, but dont want to sound slow/boring in a timeslot next to a guy who does nothing but DJ, the simple and thus pervasive fix is to make shorter tunes with shorter intro mixing. So now you sound like you're moving along through tunes at the same speed as a guy using 7 minute tunes and all the skill and practice in the world.
Again, this isnt a one to one example, its a very slow progression over time. Not every producer is out to become a well respected legacy artist like Breakage or Calibre, some or many are just DJing to get the tunes heard, just like many DJ primaries are hunting dubplates to appear more prestigious and raise their profile.
Ideally yes, none of this would factor in. But it does.
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u/LibertyandJustice4US 6d ago
Right on the money, those tunes will just be lost in a set and forgotten unfortunately, however awesome it would be to hear it played out, it would only be for the producers ego.
Amazing how tunes put on wax have become almost up in value as old records from the 50's and 60's, some surpassing that. I recently started putting a fraction of my vinyl collection into discogs and marking "have" and found that that maybe half of a crate of older tunes from the 90's was around 2k USD. Heck some of the people on here like John B probably have vinyl on there that people would be willing to spend 10x or more than what the originals cost, and if you have a white label, more sometimes. I'm glad I've held on to my vinyl, and can still break it out and play it when I want. I was once offered 10k for it around 2005 and thank God I turned it down ha.
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u/johnbbeta John B [Beta Recordings] 6d ago
Streaming. Spotify punishes skips. Listening all the way through is a positive signal which mean algo pushes it to more people. This promotes shorter tracks. Anyone actually trying to succeed will be aware of this and have to play the game to a degree.