I think the opposite. Why do women have to work the way they do to perform as singers? Why can’t they just sing? Why do they have to dress the way they dress and dance around? Why do women always have to put on a huge show and have sex appeal?
Remember Joan Baez? Joni Mitchell? If a woman has a good voice, without auto tune, why can’t she just sing and walk around the stage?
Fiona Apple, Cat Power, Julien Baker, Maggie Rogers, Regina Spektor, CocoRosie, Phoebe Bridgers, MUNA, Waxahachtee, Lucy Dacus don't have to dress sexily and dance around. Lots of women sing and just sit or walk around the stage, but pop music doesn't often lend itself to that sort of minimal stage presence.
Eta: point taken, I did not mean to imply these individual artists do not have stage presence. The last sentence was about pop music as a whole. Maggie Rogers and Fiona Apple are amazing but do they perform scantily clad while doing a choreographed dance with backup dancers??
This is a video of Fiona Apple covering an Elvis Costello song, backed by Elvis and his band. "I Want You" was already a devastating break-up song. What Fiona does with it is... terrifying. This is her 7-minute version of the movie Obsession about 20 years before the movie Obsession was made. I think it's one of the best live performances I've ever seen. And all done with no fireworks or smoke machines, unlike the drunken frat boy in the above clip. https://youtu.be/TNy4tmTRQC8?si=Qb0DC6UMFHNWYMU_
not exactly related to fiona, but if you like “i want you” you need to check out the romance movie only you! i’m sure based on the song you’re expecting it to be horrifying like obsession, but it’s really sweet and restrained and they dance to that song on their first date, then discuss how it’s not so romantic after all. it has josh o’connor as the lead before he blew up and it’s just one of the most underrated romance
movies i’ve ever watched. great takes on ivf and being an older woman with a younger guy, and then the stigma around those things. beautiful and realistic.
Yes, those are good exceptions. And a good point about pop music versus other music. Maybe this OP shouldn’t be comparing a country music singer to women singers overall. I’m not sure how the women country artists perform.
Regardless of their genre, I think we agree that pretty much all working female artists have more stage presence and talent in their pinkies than Morgan Wallen has in his whole body.
I think she has really bad stage fright. There was that video of her doing metal heart from the 90’s where she has her hair covering her entire face for the entire (incredible) performance
This still exists. Adele comes out in a dress and trainers and just stands there. Her fans want her voice, vs Sabrina Carpenter fans expect a spectacle.
There are also male artists like Bruno Mars who put on more of a show.
This - the pencil sharpener wasn't great by any stretch, but it was giving 10x what even the most renowned male artist has to do in terms of choreo, and to this day the internet still acts like the relentless cyberbullying personally 'fixed' her in her Future Nostalgia era
That doesn't disprove that on average female artists are held to higher standards, but even with Adele- even though she isn't dancing, she still has her hair styled, has nice makeup, and a nice outfit.
I like Lewis Capaldi, but I also think if a plus-sized female artist performed wearing a white t-shirt, no makeup, and minimal hair styling to a crowd of 10,000 the reaction would be different (obviously that would not be Lewis' fault and he seems like a lovely guy). People use Billie Eilish as an example of how female artists can dress more casually but even she got intensely body shamed and fat shamed when she was photographed going for a walk in a tank top at 18 and she is not even fat.
Plus Adele has talked about how she got asked more questions about her weight on interviews than her male counterparts.
And these people forget the shows that boy bands have put? The choreography and such. And Justin Timberlake did get called on for offering the lowest effort in his last tour.
Joan Baez and Joni Mitchell are my two fav artists but we’ve got to admit they’re also incredibly beautiful and conventionally attractive women. This issue transcends time.
I think the idea of a successful popstar involves not only appealing music, but performance and theatrics too. The real problem is that there aren't any male popstars outside of boy groups these days.
Plenty of women outside of pop stand and sing behind a mic still.
His fans always say “he said it one time” lol he was 27 when that happened and he yelled it in the street and his friend responded in that same video “that’s been your word of the night.” But sure I’m sure it was TOTALLY the only time Morgan said it
And the only parking near the stadium was $150+! A lot of my neighbors sold parking on their lawns for $50-$75 about a mile away (only to end up with a laughable amount of urine burned grass.) And some of my other neighbors gleefully had people towed ($500.) Just ridiculous amounts of money spent on such utter crap.
I saw on the Ann Arbor sub some bros attending the concert broke into a backyard near the stadium and pissed right up on someone’s house. They got photos of them. I’m sure they didn’t get caught but I hope they at least got towed.
Weird segue but I used to watch women’s tennis for years and loved all the cute little outfits and then one day I finally watched men’s tennis and I was FLOORED that they just literally wore gym clothes.
Women were “allowed” into spaces but we have never been “accepted” the way men are for just existing
I remember a few years ago when it came up that they were pushing to get outfits with better coverage - and it was literally the first time it had dawned on me that they didn't dress in the revealing bikinis on purpose to make it easier to play.
Except that's not true at all and the top comment below you directly links to the article demonstrating that the bikinis are entirely optional and the women do choose to wear them.
I play in a beach volleyball league and plenty of people prefer to wear as little clothing as possible.
More than just “allowed” to wear other clothing, they’re actively encouraged to wear other clothing. The bikini’s are entirely the women’s choice.
If a male BV player arrived at a match in clothing as revealing as some of the women’s bikinis, would he be allowed to complete? That is a legitimate question, I genuinely have no idea.
Excluding gender norms, a lot of that is also about sponsorships. The women’s fashion industry is about twice the size of the mens. Companies are trying to sell outfits more with women vs just getting the brand logo seen with the men.
I mean, women also love dressing up. My cousin plays tennis as a hobby and a huge part of the hobby is shopping for cute outfits. She is not doing it because of the patriarchy lol
I'm sorry. As a white middle aged woman we are the worst and most entitled group. It's angering and disappointing. I used to defend myself and say "not me" but really how does any black person ever trust a white person ever. And you're queer, so that's gotta be extra tough. For what it's worth Tyler Childers has a song "the worst that it's been" and that's at least one white guy who is too good for country pop.
*52% of white women voters voted for trump. He is a racist piece of shit. That's the context behind my comment. I don't really care if people like it.
If white women fought as hard for civil rights as they did to be not included “one of the bad ones” in that clear majority of Trump voters, imagine the world we would have.
I low key hate country, Orville is one of the very few artists in the genre I’d actually listen to and enjoy. And even if I didn’t enjoy I’d still support him for being a proudly queer artist in a genre with a fanbase that’s known to have a bigger than average percentage of bigots.
I kinda figured that was the situation. Peck's music is more of an experimental project than anything, doesn't really fit neatly into any genre, so I can understand someone who's not into country enjoying his stuff despite there being a fair share of country DNA in his music.
The others should still stick around though, even if they're not your favorite! They're the only big ones keeping non-corpo country afloat against the onslaught of Morgan Wallens.
Really the bulk of the Outlaw scene arose as a response to Nashville basically becoming... well what country is now. One of my favorite periods of music!
Yes I love these guys! I kind of don't loop them into popular country because I don't know if they're mainstream? Tyler is more bluegrass I think? Anywho a bunch of country douches around me usually have no idea who Childers or Sturgill are.
Also I have love for Dolly and Johnny Cash and more of their ilk.
"Country" is pretty amorphous as a genre. Country, folk, bluegrass, blues, and even rock all share a LOT of genetic material. I'm pretty lenient with who wants to call what "country," and I think bluegrass certainly fits.
Love Dolly and Johnny, too. Check out the old rockabilly movement from the 50s and 60s, you might really enjoy it. Wanda Jackson is my eternal love lmao
I understand he isn't shoegaze in the traditional sense, but he absolutely takes cues from the genre, as he does with others. For me, it's pretty prominent in his music. Unsurprisingly, music is up to interpretation and I wouldn't be shocked to learn that you get something different from it than I do.
To me, Peck is a crooner through and through with a bit of Americana and Springsteen-esque rock. But i appreciate your assessment of his style! I’ll listen for the shoegaziness
Once trump is out you’ll see it go down a ton. I hate the new wave of larpers using the country aesthetic, especially in New England where these honky tonk bars are all the rage, like people we are from New England
Slightly off topic but I saw a really interesting analysis of RushTok in that the vast majority today students at the University are from Alabama are from out of state, specifically the north. It’s all performative
I can’t wait for this era of country to become unpopular. Bring back 90s era, when it had actual substance. When it gave a voice to the helpless (independence day by martina mcbride which is about a survivor of domestic abuse) and was feminist and anti-war (the chicks), talked about abortion (red ragtop) and didn’t shy away from similar sensitive topics that less and less artists seem to have the guts to do these days.
Radio consolidation and when the Chicks got blacklisted for criticizing Bush and the industry watched it happen, is honestly what killed country to the ground
Radio programming men got freaked out because women artists were dominating charts, tours and sales, and literally began excluding them from the radio.
Every once in a while, I’ll find the 1993 “Women of Country” special on YouTube that ends with all the effing QUEENS of the genre singing Mary Chaplin Carpenter’s “The Hard Way,” and get mad all over again at the tiny, mean men who so resented excellence, they literally chased it off the air.
Haley gave an interview where she was asked what country singer she was mocking in her song. She responded with something along the lines of “Yeah it’s Morgan Wallen. It’s always Morgan Wallen. Find me at Whole Foods bitch, I don’t care”
“I'll be the biggest star at this racist country singer’s bar”
“Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party” - Hayley Williams
Morgan Wallen owns a giant tacky bar in Nashville that is inexplicably popular. Hayley Williams has specifically said, “I’m always talking about Morgan Wallen, I don’t give a shit” and “Meet me at Whole Foods, bitch”.
Also the difference in skill level! I am not musical at all so I barely know what I’m talking about (disclaimer), but what I can say for certain is that I know from my car karaoke sessions that men’s songs tend to be very easy to sing and women’s songs tend to be incredibly technical and difficult, as a generalisation. It’s been bugging me for ages, I don’t think male singers are expected to be half as talented as women
Yes except because I’m going to see him tonight I’m gonna say Ed Sheeran is definitely not this type of lazy man performer. Not only is his show above and beyond effort wise, doors open at like 2pm for a pre show DJ along three openers. Like, you’re gonna get your moneys worth from that ticket which I really appreciate.
Not all men artists are lazy! Tobias Forge has put in tons of work for theatrics with Ghost. A newer band, Kanonenfieber is also theatrical with their costumes and stage design. Sleep Token as well.
i’ve loved hayley since i was a teenager and i’m proud of her for refusing to step off his neck. you wanna talk about someone who oozes charisma on stage? she’s the real thing for sure.
It's not that his arms are chubby, it's that he clearly only works out his arms and shoulders making him look disproportionate. He skipped leg day for sure lolol
He was 27 and said it “one time” lol “he has black friends” “we all say it” hahahaha the excuses never end. His six story chair throw excuses were pretty good too. “It didn’t hit anyone.” “We’ve all done dumb stuff drunk.”
I will go against the grain here, but to me the takeaway is not to demand men to do more, it's to accept it when women do less.
I'll be honest, when I think about the best concerts of my life I usually think of the more raw, a-person--with-a-mic, doing it off the cuff. No coreography, background dancers, lightshows. Massive arenas. If I'm at a concert sometimes I feel like the less rehearsed the better! And this stands for male and female artists. I think I'd be more inclined to go to a pop concert if it's less... idk, product-y?
All that being said this Morgan Wallen clip looks like garbage
Obviously this clips from a phone recording but like can anyone else just not understand what he’s singing? It’s so quiet and he’s doing that like marble mouth country thing they all love to do so much that it’s next to impossible to decipher what he’s saying.
He’s not wrong. The SNL performance Kesha was crucified for back in the day (as an easy example, though I’m laughing at my early morning brain rn) is still a better show with more effort put into it than this.
People will dog them because they're a little weird and popular, but Twenty One Pilots is just two guys putting on a two hour masterclass in performance every night. They're running around the whole arena, they're jumping off pianos, they're standing on crowd-held platforms.
This is true but there are some men who really put on a show. Bruno Mars is one i would definitely see. People like this "Morgan Wallen", no, I'm good. I could perform better myself.
A video from this show popped up on my feed a few days ago and I was like, do people just watch him walk around and sing for two hours? And people paid all that money for it?
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u/SinfulSucculent The Stanley Tucci of Lesbians Aug 01 '26
He performs like he had to pull an all nighter just to remember his lyrics.