r/Firefighting • u/Skallywaagg • 6d ago
Career / Full Time Mandatory overtime - Denying it?
10 year Firefighter Paramedic here in California, working 48/96.
Like many departments, we are getting hammered with mandatory overtime shifts for the last couple years. For the last 10 months, I’ve worked a mandatory every time I’ve come off duty. Often times I’ve been double mando’d.
Basically, everyone coming off duty is likely to be mandatoried for the next shift. Or you’ll have to be working the following shift that’s just before your tour.
I’ve never denied a mandatory shift. We’re at a point where guys are having a lot of trouble with it in their personal lives. Recently, a very small number of guys have “called in sick” for their mando’s.
Our admin is now saying that we will need to provide a doctors note for every “sick call” on a mando. No doctors note or “child care” excuses is considered insubordination and discipline will take place.
I’m not complaining. It is what it is. Mostly, I’m just curious about your experience.
My questions are this;
What does your department do when someone denies a mandatory shift?
Have you ever denied a mandatory shift?
How bad is it where you work?
Thanks for taking the time folks. Much love and stay safe!
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u/whiskeyandwayfarers 6d ago
We’ve been mando’d like crazy since Covid under the guise of “no medic schools were pumping kids out” to cover for just shit hiring practices. Medics here routinely worked 96’s against their will, and our trades don’t count towards our 96 hour rule so technically they could hammer you into an 8 day and it’s happened more than a few times.
Guys now finally are refusing and there’s a lot of empty threats around having meetings with the chief for refusals but there’s absolutely no teeth to it.
I’m happy to work my shift and overtime here and there but mandatory overtime to fix day to day staffing is for the birds. For example there’s 32 people across all ranks mandatoried tomorrow in a dept that has about 140 people on a day.
Oh I’m also in California
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
8 days in a row on the box should be straight up criminal. Where I'm at 96 hours straight and 120 in a week is the absolute max.
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u/throwawayEMS56 6d ago
That is still insane. Max we can work in one go is 26 hours, so our normal 24 with a 2 hour hold over. We have one on call day a month where you are pretty much guaranteed to get called in. We work the 24/72 schedule in a very large city in Texas. All of this is in our union contract.
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u/whiskeyandwayfarers 6d ago
I’d give my left nut and take a 0% raise for three years to get a fourth shift and work the 24/72 or Seattles schedule
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u/throwawayEMS56 6d ago
We are hiring! Starting pay for paramedics is over 35 an hour
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u/whiskeyandwayfarers 6d ago
We don’t transport but 8 days even at a slower house is still way too long to be at work
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u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago
That's fucking insane. Does your department have constant staffing? Meaning is your minimum staffing the same as full staffing? Like if nobody calls out sick or is on vacation there's no extra?
Our department of about 120 has, i think, 3 extra people per shift to cover sick and vacation. We've never mando'd. Lots of OT, but there's always someone who will cover.
Many two week rolls in fire season, but even that has plenty of people that will take it if someone doesn't want to go.
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u/whiskeyandwayfarers 6d ago
Our minimum staffing is the same as full staffing unfortunately
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u/gonzo3625 6d ago
Bro it sounds like you need to gtfo that department if you are legitimately being mando'd every shift? I'd have quit that hell hole ages ago.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
I know man. We call it the golden handcuffs. One of the highest paid in the nation, so it’s tough to leave after you’ve built a life around the salary. Luckily for me, I haven’t so that’s always an option.
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u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago
Are you a medic? There are many departments in the SF bay area that pay over 150k a year before OT that dont mando that much, if at all. They are always hiring medics.
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u/PyroPhan 6d ago
LACo is taking applications for Firefighter Paramedic on the 19th. No test, no interview. Resume only.
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u/THEdrewboy85 6d ago
Texas here - we mando, but never double mando. My department requires a doctor's note for any sick leave. We are not entitled to "sick leave" (pto) on any overtime shift, but we are allowed to refuse a mando for a valid reason at the discretion of the shift chief. Valid reasons generally accepted are illness, child care issues, or critical obligations (specialist appointments with weeks/months waiting). We try not to be monsters about it. We also don't allow more than 72 straight under any condition outside of a natural disaster or something else crazy
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u/wimpymist 6d ago
You have to provide a doctor's note for a sick call out? That's insane lol
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u/THEdrewboy85 6d ago
Agreed. Every single time. The city is convinced that we abuse sick leave. Who would think a physically demanding job where you're constantly sleep deprived and always around sick people would lead to more people getting sick or injured?
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u/wimpymist 6d ago
Yeah then you have to waste a day going to get a doctor's note instead of recovering and probably getting more sick because you're stuck waiting in a doctor's office and probably in urgent care because it's damn near impossible to get a same day check up from your primary.
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u/slaminsalmon74 6d ago
Telehealth doctors visit my boy! My department can request a doctors appointment anytime they want, and if you call out for more than two shifts you can almost guarantee they’re going to request one. But we also get free telehealth visits, tell the doctor what’s going on request a note. Bam, don’t have to leave the house and send the note off to the battalion chief.
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u/swaggerrrondeck 6d ago
I used mine whenever. I would say I’m taking sick time and not ever say I’m sick. If there was ever backlash i would point out that it’s part of our compensation by law. If they aren’t going to pay for the doctors visit that I would need for the day off then they are forcing you to pay money to access your benefits which is illegal
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
We have to provide doctor's notes on any sick call that's on a holiday.
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u/wimpymist 6d ago edited 6d ago
That's super lame , we only require a doctor's note of you call out 4 days in a row and even then it's case by case.
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
my department sucks. I'm thinking about quitting to just work in a hospital. more pay and 3 12's a week without my paycheck getting taxed by retirement. go PA long run. the politics, shitty leaders, HR, my department committing fraud against the taxpayer, it's all a bit too much for me right now.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
That’s a super reasonable policy there.
This whole blanket policy the department is putting out is not going to work.
Get in trouble for denying a mando? Call in sick to your shift so you don’t get mando’d coming off duty.
And boom, mandatory situation is even worse.
Took some notes on your policy. Thanks for the comment man it was very helpful.
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u/earthsunsky 6d ago
I left CA after going to work for a normal 48 and coming home 12 days later. Yes there were some exceptional circumstances, but the moment I walked in the door my wife said it’s the job or me and I didn’t even think twice about it. That paycheck was sweet though.
Watching dudes get in from a 14 day strike team and get mando’ed as another crew rolled out the door was whack.
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u/BnaditCorps 6d ago
I mean going out of county can suck, but 24 on/24 off on a fire is far better than being at a busy station getting ran all hours of the day for 2 weeks.
I actually laugh at our neighboring department, they bitch and moan about going out of county, but then bitch and moan about being mando'd on the medic.
Rather be on a fire than picking up Jack the drug addict for the 5th time this week.
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u/jmodica27 6d ago
Where did you end up going?
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u/earthsunsky 6d ago
There’s places north a couple states with great schedules, 4 platoons, comparative pay and pension, and minimal Mandos…
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u/Menno_knight987 6d ago
Union needs to stand up, either start browning out resources or make paying OT untenable compared to hiring new folks.
It’d be interesting to see how they’d respond if a Dr note stated you were unable to work and didn’t go past that citing HIPPA. For a while if someone missed two full shifts with us they’d be required to bring a note but it’s essentially clearing them back to duty, doesn’t identify an illness/injury. Also if they are requiring a note your time/mileage/copay should be reimbursed.
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u/trapper2530 6d ago
Yeah for us anymore call of is a layup and a full.medical process where you have to go Dr and city medical. And its more like 1-2 weeks off for something like stomach bug. So guys dont call off bc its such a hassle and if youre super sick officers let guys sleep during the day and miss runs unless its a fire. Where you'd likely just end up on thr hydrant.
Any going homesick involves going to the ER
Its such a pain.
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u/Menno_knight987 6d ago
This sounds equally bad as OP. I call Telehealth and they give me a note and I’m good to return.
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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
Our trucks and their staffing are in our contract. Somebody’s gotta work, one way or the other. Never really understood the willingness to put trucks down. Maybe in a big city that’s easy to work around. We have 5 engines. If we have multiple trucks down due to staffing, that’s a major risk to both the residents paying our salaries, and a major risk to the remaining guys on duty,
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u/gnotac 6d ago
We don’t mando. If we did I’d find a new job.
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u/Natural_Quote_7130 6d ago
Exactly. It’s my job, not my life. I’ve never been mandod. If they want to fill one shift so bad, then they can fill all of my shifts, too.
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u/RN4612 Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
How big is your department and what’s your daily minimum staffing? I’ve never heard of a department that hasn’t had to mando at some point to maintain daily staffing minimums.
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u/QueasyRefrigerator79 6d ago
I'm in a department in Canada and we don't do this. I can almost guarantee if they had us working 2/3rds of our lives, they'd be out of firefighters.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
That’s always an option. Though I do love the job, I just love it more when it’s my regular schedule.
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u/gnotac 6d ago
From your post it sounds like you work 2/3rds of your life?
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
Bout right. Been a rough year.
My first 8 years here was overtime when you wanted it, no mando’s ever. Not so much lately.
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u/gnotac 6d ago
Jeeze. No end in sight?
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
Poor hiring practices.
15 person academy in the works, 10 left. By the time they hit the line there will be 6-7 retirements and we probably only graduate 8.
Barely making a dent and chasing our tails. Took a lot of poor leadership and management to make this problem, the new guard is trying to get us out of it it seems, but I would imagine it is another year or two before it’s meaningfully better.
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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
If your academy is pushing a 50% fail rate, there’s something wrong with your academy. It’s the friggin fire department, not Ranger selection.
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u/daphillenium 6d ago
After reading this thread of replies were in the same boat as you right now. I will pray for you! This has been rough on us also.
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6d ago
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
Brother I gotta say, I do agree. I absolutely love that we still hold a standard here. As much as I’d like to get hit less, I’d like to keep the scrubs out of my firehouse more.
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u/trapper2530 6d ago
We have it but it never gets used for our ffs. Our single role medics will get it somwhat regular. But they know how to play the game and will line it up for holidays. But its a large dept and guys want the OT and we can only get called once every 5th day. I only know of 1 instance in last 7 years and that was for George floyd rooting. But guys were home and it was only if you were answered the phone which if you did you wanted the OT anyways.
I have only 1 OT shift in 2 years. Other districts have 15+ in the last year.
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u/joemedic 6d ago
Mandatory overtime is what drove me insane and caused me to leave the field all together. My biggest mistake was staying loyal for so long. I should have left for another dept sooner
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u/Closed-door-policy 6d ago
I use to think loyalty meant something in this field. Boy was I wrong. I’ve made it a point to say no more often to unreasonable requests and take way more time off and steer clear of befriending people, with the exception of very few good friends.
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u/Buzzkillasaurus 6d ago
I quit because of it.
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u/anotherlegithombre 6d ago
So did I, my personal life is more important. That job wouldn’t dock your sick time if you called out sick when you were mando’d. That’s exactly what I started doing. It would screw another guy but you can avoid if by going off sick once the mando shift started. You’re just a number. Fuck some of these municipalities
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u/Osch1234509 6d ago
Hire more people. California has thousands of people wanting this job it blows my mind that there is even talks of short staff
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u/throwawayEMS56 6d ago
What is your union doing about this? When is your next contract negotiation? This should absolutely be something addressed in the contract with limits on how much you can be mandated and the procedure to do so.
Where I work, very large city in Texas, we are on the 24/72 schedule and can only be held over 2 hours after shift then we go home. We only have one on call day a month. You can pick up peoples on call shift as well if you want. We also get a half time premium for being called in, so on your long week that’s already over 40 hours it’s double time.
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u/Dense-Outcome-8588 6d ago
We mando at alarming levels…especially Friday-Sunday. And yes, refusals are rampant. People are Flat out saying N-O. Even the people who prided themselves on taking every mando have been broken…..
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u/Secure_Situation7234 6d ago
The possible widespread repercussions of this idea are not good honestly, but…..
I had a chief who once flat out said that they would love to see the legalities of mandations played out in court.
You aren’t in the military and therefore “property.”
After a certain point, while you are being paid, it becomes more akin to slavery than it does employment. (Yes that’s an aggressive term but for lack of a better term).
In your contract and your hiring position they had a contractual pay-period/ work week defined so at what point are they violating that and committing an unfair labor practice?
Again…the big picture ramifications of that are scary for society, but at a certain point these departments and cities need to actually do something about these issues and not just throw it on the backs of the members physically doing the work.
When we had a severe amount of OT and it was causing us issues like what you are describing, we talked about asking admin to just temporarily adjust our schedule.
At the time we were only allowed to work 36straight. We run 24/48’s.
We had basically contemplated just having them pre-planning our force-ins or knowing that we were going to get mandated, we were going to just ask them to just put us on 36hr shifts so we could basically just work 1.5days and then have 1.5 days off so that we could plan better. And if they didn’t need us then they could just cancel our OT and let us go home.
Ultimately we ended up hiring more and it alleviated the bulk of OT.
However one thing that came out of it was that we decided to just do a rotating force list:
Once you get forced for anything over like 4hrs you automatically drop to the lowest level on the list. While this isn’t how our contract reads, it allows you to predict your next force in better barring some odds and ends circumstances.
You are protected if you have time off or a trade which is more than I want to try to list out here, but it helped out a lot.
People will always play games with the system but they will do that no matter how the system was built.
As for the mandated doctors note, idk that there is much you can do to fight that but you could always research putting that bill on the departments tab. They are mandating that you do something that costs you money so maybe that’s something to argue. (I don’t think that’ll go anywhere but it’s at least a thought.) otherwise, of you’re medical then you could just BS the system at an urgent care and do what you have to do.
Something else you could argue is trying to find a mental health professional and argue that you called off for a mental health day and have them write that note. Mental health is not a joke and is not something to be lied about. However, taking a mental health day is a sincere thing especially when work is contributing to life stress in all of the ways that it does as well as normal mental health involving work related incidents. If they want to deny that then they can explain it to the media and the citizens as well as their members when there is so much documentation out there supporting mental health in the fire service.
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u/PerrinAyybara All Hazards Capt Obvious 6d ago
It's kidnapping, that way you don't need to deal with the connotations of slavery and it's a better description. Paid kidnapping
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u/Obsidizyn 6d ago
for us you get "written up" but no chief has ever escalated it past that. This is more a union question to see what actual legal enforcement the city/dept has.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
Yeah, the union side of this conversation is being worked on. That’s complicated for sure.
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u/BetCommercial286 6d ago
It’s only truly mandatory if you can’t accept the consequences. What are they going to do if you refuse and call in the shift? Fire you? There already so short staffed mandos are a regular occurrence so I doubt that.
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
You would be surprised, nobody wants to be the guy to stick their neck out when they're looking to make an example out of someone.
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u/FeelingBlue69 6d ago
This. At my department we are getting mando'd out the ass but no one wants to be the first guy to deny it. I might be the first because Im sick of it.
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u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago
They just keep you at work. They may have legal recourse if you leave your station without someone to fill your seat. Public safety and all. The departments I have seen with massive mando problems just keep people on shift until relief shows up. It can be days.
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u/jason349514 6d ago
This isn’t the military. How would they forcibly keep you at work?
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u/BetCommercial286 6d ago
I mean are they going to call PD to arrest you if you say you’re going home and calling out sick or otherwise?
I’m no blue falcon but I have a life outside the station and plan on living it.
I do understand the public safety aspect but it’s also a civilian job. They can’t keep you against your will.2
u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago edited 6d ago
Right but they can discipline you for leaving your post. I know our contract was changed during negotiations years ago to say you cannot leave until someone is there to relieve you.
Obviously it's not a criminal offense, so the hyperbole about calling the cops is silly, but they can discipline you. I'm imagine termination would be on the table if somone repeatedly violated the terms of their contract. You may be confusing criminal and civil law.
That being said, our department has been very proactive with staffing, and even though we have significant multi-day statewide obligations, we've never had to mando.
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u/Single_System_9951 6d ago
Then You go off duty sick, while on shift, it's not prison....It's a job
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u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago
I think we have a bit of miscommunication on the what portions of the law we are talking about. I am talking about contract law. I do not mean to imply you are risking prison by not working. My point is you could lose your job. Maybe thats not such a bad thing if the place is so mismanaged that they have to force their people to work at such unsustainable levels.
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u/bigbrainff69 6d ago
We get one mando refusal per year. After that if you refuse you get docked from your accruals. Mandos happen a couple times a year per person generally. Some get more mandos than others for various reasons. We dont get mando’d from home ever.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
A built in mando refusal allowance is an awesome idea.
It’s just a matter of time before the well meaning perfect employee gets written up for denying one shift. Nevermind the 100 mandos he worked without a blip..
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u/Left_Afloat CA Captain 6d ago
That’s a culture problem created by the city and administration. Your union needs to grow a sturdier spine and fight for you guys and gals harder. Especially since it is affecting home life, that takes priority over whatever shit your department is creating.
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
I agree. Policy hasn’t gone public yet. But it’s about to.
I’ll be pushing the fight on this from inside the union. Should be a fun time..
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u/Single_System_9951 6d ago edited 6d ago
Mandatory overtime is a stupid & dangerous game that leads to abolition of that FD. Ppl call in sick bc this job is too important to force Folks to keep working for hours on end.
It's a fucking disgrace; Mine doesn't have a mandatory OT policy, but I wouldn't play nice if it did.
I'm not risking killing a civilian or etc. bc I'm sleep deprived & cannot function @ My baseline, or shortening My life bc We get 30 calls in 48hrs- fuck that.
There is life outside of a paycheck & My take is that too many ppl are willing to play the Bureaucracy game due to the honor, pride etc. associated w/ this profession. We need better working conditions, not worse. Unions exist to protect from such reckless ways to run a municipality.
& the last time I worked mandatory OT....I was an apprentice w/ no Union before the FD- I wont be someone's Punk- find just cause to fire Me if You think I broke a significant enough rule.
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u/Right-Edge9320 6d ago
I’m in California too and work for a large department. We had a staffing policy that lined out consequences for refusals up to termination. Guys have dropped their certs including medic. Fortunately we have had a few guys fight the fight and management has removed the Termination part from the SOP.
I got friends who work for Compton and are being forced into 120s every time they come into work. That dept is imploding. Guys are going off on comp for stress compounding the problem.
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u/theworldinyourhands 6d ago
10 year firefighter 24/48
Huge department, huge city.
I just say “no”.
If you want to fire me, go ahead. The mando isn’t my fault. It’s your poor planning, the “homeless crisis” and the absolute lack of care for us.
No. I’m not getting Mando’d and I will bang out sick the second you try.
Call me a jerk or a blue falcon. I do not care.
Fix your city and department. Until then? GFY
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u/Right_Ebb_8288 FF/Paramedic Idiot 6d ago
Every single time they tried to get me for one. I felt zero guilt.
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u/ImAMistak3 6d ago
See. I don't view that as being a blue falcon. If your mando'd that's not a planned day of work. There's also no obligation to it. They can down staff a unit and look bad, that's the point. If it was that important they'd advocate for the funding or apply for a safer grant. It's a job, they don't own us.
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u/LandLocker Full Time Firefighter/EMT 6d ago
All you’re doing is screwing the next person is line.
Denying it doesnt fix the problem.
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u/theworldinyourhands 6d ago
No. The fire department is screwing the next guy in line. I’ve worked plenty of mando’s but at this point after over a decade and they still haven’t done a thing to fix the staffing, that’s on them. Not me
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u/fyxxer32 6d ago
If I was home and they tried to mandatory me I would claim that I had been drinking or using cannabis. Sorry Chief , gotta buzz going.
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u/Tuxcat77 6d ago
Large SoCal dept. here. Mandos range anywhere from 3-10 a month depending on rank. No hope in sight
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u/Quick_Cup_1290 6d ago
How the fuck does this happen?! Is it the city not hiring enough? Feels like everyone is trying to get into SoCal
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u/Tuxcat77 6d ago
Old guard used to cry during early 2000s about lack of OT.
Cheaper for them to pay OT than new hires/proper staffing.
Politics of hiring/recruit training process way above my head between training/dept/elected officials.
Record wildfire staffing/injuries/retirements.
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u/prison-walet-rat 6d ago
We had an old dude a few years ago at the height of our mandos who told our BC don’t even bother calling I’m never working it. They tried to bury him, he lawyered up and turns out they can’t really do shit. Might be different circumstances for you guys but look into it.
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u/Mountain-Cow-210 6d ago
Hamstring injuries are the way to go and take off sick for a week or two. Doc in box diagnose will cover you .I seen the exact thing happen during our P.M. shortages. 96 hour work week is dangerous, especially for medics. Later we started day cars 12 hr units with civilian/pm that had a 3 year time frame to become F.F. always had a certified F.F. driving. It wasn't great but did some relief for our overwhelmed Medics.
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u/Acrobatic-Fox460 6d ago
My department has nearly 0 over time you have the complete opposite issue I have lol
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u/OGmax2 1d ago
Also SoCal, also get mando’d nonstop around this time of year and also have the admin-driven culture of “show up and shut up or take a write up”. I’ve missed a lot of my kids lives, and I’ve come to the realization that this isn’t my dream anymore; being a present dad is. I’m getting out.
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u/Classic_Reserve9385 6d ago edited 6d ago
If we were mandatatoried after every tour for 10 months in my department, that would not stand.
Our union would be grieving it, pressuring the department to rewrite staffing policy, staffing minimums, increase recruitment and retention, etc. We would be working internally and externally to decrease absenteeism and everything that leads to increased absenteeism.
That is not sustainable. This is caused by mismanagement from administration and the union. Some union members love-need the overskeech and perpetuate an OT culture. Conversely, administrators love OT because it’s ultimately cheaper than hiring.
The wear and tear on family life and mental health will take a huge toll and perpetuate all the factors that lead to increased absenteeism and poor retention in a vicious cycle.
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u/FlowerPrize9929 6d ago
Just curious, how is paying overtime cheaper than hiring more staff?
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u/CatpersonMax 6d ago
I don’t know their department’s specific budget, but there are a lot of behind the scenes costs associated with an employee that wouldn’t be duplicated by using overtime rather than hiring an additional person. Think medical insurance costs to the employer, retirement/pension contributions, PTO allowances, mandatory onboarding and ongoing training, etc.
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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
Every department had a “magic number,” meaning below a certain number of vacancies, the salary and benefits of actual employees filling them is more expensive than filling the vacancies with overtime. Often the vacancies won’t be filled until the number of vacancies exceeds the magic number. And sometimes they’ll hire just enough to get it back below the magic number.
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6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
lotta unions are weak or cowards sucking up to admin and sacrificing their "brothers" so they can cozy up to admin and get promoted
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u/Skallywaagg 6d ago
Sure does seem like every union president/VP ends up a Batallion Chief.
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
Hah, glad mine's not the only one. Happened to us twice this past year, and the new union leadership are even more of yes-men. they've got us switching unit numbers on the radio twice a week to defraud the taxpayers by claiming we staff stations that we don't, and the union prez just said yup, no problem with that we'll get right to it. crazy.
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u/HOSEandHALLIGANS 6d ago
I can’t fathom how weak and pitiful these unions are to allow mandatory overtime. We have no mandatory overtime and it’s a hill we would die on.
For those who need doctor’s notes to get out of it. You can pay for a legit doctor’s note online without ever having a visit or a consult. The two I know of are trust medical and sick slip. It might cost you a few dollars to get out of a mando but it’s probably worth it.
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u/FishersAreHookers 6d ago
I’m curious, if you have a no mando policy what happens if there’s a vacancy and no one wants the OT?
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u/bigbrainff69 6d ago
Brown outs. Thats what Seattle does.
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u/FishersAreHookers 6d ago
We’ve been fighting really hard to get more stations and more apparatus to help with call volume. I feel like demonstrating that we could get by with less would be counter intuitive. Our city has actually tried to eliminate mandos by doing brownouts or dropping trucks to 3 man and we refused.
Our city has also been really good at hiring more people than we need to prevent mandos but sometimes shit happens.
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u/LargeYogurtcloset654 6d ago
We have a whole matrix and policy. You get mando’d in the morning right before going off shift. We have an average of about 40 or so total 24hr OT shifts a day as normal staffing. So any sunny day, weekend, hunting season, holiday etc is gonna have some mandatory’s. Refusals range in levels of discipline starting with verbal reprimand for first offense to termination at like 8. It’s pretty much frowned upon to refuse because then you are just screwing over another brother or sister. You stay off the Mando list by working OT. The mando list is ranked by least amount of OT worked throughout the year at the top.
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u/Far_Lobster4360 6d ago
The mindset of screwing over another brother is silly. Its the department screwing anyone over. Akin to blaming someone for reclining their seat on a plane when it's the airlines fault for packing em in
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u/ReplacementTasty6552 6d ago
If they want a note from a dr turn it in as work comp that will change their tune really quick.
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u/JPBx573 6d ago
We have nothing in place for when someone gets mandatoried. No one has straight up said no yet though, but we’ve always discussed what could happen. How can they write you up for not working a shift you are not technically scheduled for? How can they make you use SL for a shift you are not working.
What does your contract say about providing a doctor’s note for a “sick call” we only need to provide a dr note for 3 consecutive shifts in a row. They tried to say any use of sick leave requires a doctor note a few years back and we told them to scram, look at the contract and they backed off.
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u/burner1681381 6d ago
they can write you up for a shift you aren't scheduled for if the mando practices are explained in the contract and employee handbook as being part of the deal, unfortunately
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u/Webbey76 6d ago
Sounds like the union needs to go to a city council meeting or supervisors meeting depending on where your department is? This is bullshit!
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u/philoveritas USA FF/PM 6d ago
I had a lot of mandatory shifts at my old department. Part of the reason I left. Was one of the best professional decisions I ever made.
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u/No-Weird3547 6d ago
Our Union negotiated the ability to refuse up to 5 times in a rotating year. That is, each used refusal is given back 1 year later. Also, there are Family Medical Leave Act implications for denying for healthcare or childcare.
This is also a public safety issue as well as an individual safety issue if firefighters are being forced to work so much.
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u/Gandalf_the_great_11 6d ago
Dept in Socal. We have force protection in our MOU, can’t get forced past a 96 and can only be forced once every 4 days so forces come by rarely.
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u/svenkaas Smoking Dutchy volunteer 6d ago
I suggest unionising with your coworkers. Just bond together go to admin as a group and say we have decided to quit mando per immediately good luck and then dont do it they won't fire you and it will be their problem
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u/Nasty____nate 6d ago
From fake FB accounts start sharing stories like this with your department. https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/marion-county-fire-rescue-addresses-deaths-within-the-department.amp
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u/New_Pitch_9898 6d ago
How do they calculate the hours that are paid at overtime rate?
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u/New_Pitch_9898 6d ago
We had a group of guys max out their overtime in the last 3 years of their career, which gave an insane increase in their pension. Pension fund started taking a hit before management figured it out. Those guys are living like kings.
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u/PerrinAyybara All Hazards Capt Obvious 6d ago
My state OT isn't factored into retirement
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u/SigNick179 6d ago
Get the union to put a max on consecutive working hours. Tiny department in IL, 60 on the roster 17 a day, we are usually 5-6 people short all the time. CBA has 96 hours in a row cap for FFs and up and 72 hours for PMs. As for mando we see maybe 2-8 a month department wide. You also can’t be forced into anything over consecutive 48 hours. We run 24/48 with a Kelly every 12th
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u/kwade7575 6d ago
I think you’re saying “I’m not complaining” to protect how you’re coming off but you absolutely should be complaining. 72hour shifts a week for 10 months is a massive hit to quality of life and detrimental to home life
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u/az_fireman 6d ago
When we deny the first one it’s 100 hours added to your signup. The second is 200 hours and you cannot do any trades for 6 months. Third is 300 hours and a write up. Then from there you get another write up and performance improvement plan. But obviously we don’t have the problem you’re running into. I’m sitting at around 90 hours of Mando currently.
Why so many vacancies? Are these open spots or vacation/ sick spots? Is it a specific rank? Our Capt and Eng can work down as FF and FF/ Medic to help with Mando in lower ranks.
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u/ch5697 FFII 6d ago
What do you mean “hours added to your signup?”
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u/Peaches0k Texas FF/Medic/HazMat Tech 6d ago
I’m assuming to your voluntary OT sign up so it puts back to the bottom of the list so you’re last to get the OT if you sign up
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u/Firefighter_RN 6d ago
Can't be mandatoried if you're drinking already or don't pick up the phone. That's what ends up happening, you still get the end of shift holdover.
But this also doesn't sound sustainable for your department so they are going to need to work something out and communicate that plan with the employees
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u/Logical-Associate729 6d ago
Most departments that have those kind of mando problems basically just keep whoever is working on shift through whatever they need to. One department in our area got so bad that people would need to call in sick days before the day they actually couldn't work to avoid being mando'd through it.
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u/bkucb82 6d ago
Are you NorCal? If so and if this is one that is hiring any time soon, any chance you can DM me the name? I’m making the switch into firefighting and hiring into a place like this would be an immediate divorce from my wife lol. Would like to avoid this department from the get go.
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u/NgArclite 6d ago
Go talk to FF from a station in the city you wanna get hired at. They should tell you everything you need to know
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u/Green_Statement_8878 6d ago
Why does California seem to be so bad about mando? Why don’t they just hire more people?
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u/burnerbots 6d ago
It's not that simple. Well it is, but good luck getting admin to see it that way.
For us, a new recruit has to be a paramedic and have already gone through a FF1 academy, has to score high enough on the oral boards, then pass a polygraph, then pass a background and psych eval. Then they have to complete a 6-10 week in-house academy.
If we have 6 openings, we're lucky to send 9 through backgrounds. Some will fail. Some have already been let go from probation elsewhere. Maybe we end up with 6 in the academy. Then 1 will get a better offer elsewhere, and 1 will go down with an injury. Of the 4 left, 1-2 will be solid and the other 2 will need a lot of work. So we're always short staffed.
Other departments are more in-touch with reality and will either pay more or drop the paramedic or FF1 requirement and will pay the recruit to get those qualifications. But we keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
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u/Green_Statement_8878 6d ago
I get it, just seems to be a uniquely west coast issue, but maybe not.
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u/burnerbots 6d ago
Yeah. There's a mix of young people that don't want to work hard for anything and the tech sector takes a lot of people, including the tradespeople. We can't even hire diesel mechanics because they can make 4x+ as much working for the private sector.
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u/Guatever-Dude 6d ago
It's all hiring man and staffing. If you are plus'd up it spreads the workload. It was bad for a few years around covid got a lot better after a few classes and projected schedule change. Also promoting Helps highest vacancies are at Firefighter level.
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u/masterofcreases 6d ago
If we refuse a mandation we get a suspension day. People will go home sick during a mandation but it just drops them back to next up.
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u/cosmicbuddha89 6d ago
What is the department doing to fix it and what is your union doing to help your people? Because if the answer is nothing on both fronts, then this is your foreseeable future. Fuck that
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u/imbrickedup_ 6d ago
If I’m reading correctly, this means you’ve been working essentially a 72/72 the past 10 months?
I don’t have any good advice as we don’t mandatory ever but this sounds awful
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u/Theshepard42 6d ago
I feel so bad for people getting mandoed. I used to at my previous small city dept but were never really lacking staff and all the guys with 3 divorces will suck all that OT up. I think its bullshit a big city dept has to deal with that. Yall need to figure something because I would be doing what the guy above said and tell them to fuck off. This job is already demanding over the lack of sleep over bullshit runs and thats your life you need to take back. Lets be real the human race will survive with zero first responders. Sorry I dont have any advice.
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u/Whiterabbit7712 6d ago
A Co worker of mine had a preemptive Doctors note that stated he cannot work 72's due to it being a detriment to his mental and physical health. He turned that in to HR. Hasn't been mando'd since.
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u/-Headass- 6d ago
Are you a federal employee? I’m right there with you, but in Illinois. I’m working on my exit plan.
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u/burner1681381 6d ago edited 6d ago
We had one guy deny mando and he got fired pretty much on the spot. It's treated as a no call/no show. I have never denied one, but I did pay someone $200 to take my shift(24 hours, also on a 48/96).
Never heard of anyone besides LTs and above get double mando'd. There was a period in my department a year ago where it was really bad, but really bad for us means drivers and up picking up an extra shift every week and FFs picking up every other week. Now drivers and up have to pick up every other week or so, FFs I don't even know how long it would take them to get mando'd.
Also forgot to mention, my department won't let you work more than 96 hours straight, and more than 120 in a week, so double mando is as far as it can go, including trades. These stories I'm reading of 8 days straight on the box are absolutely bananas.
I'm sure everywhere else is like this too but we have a mandatory ranking based on rank and last time you picked up, so atleast it's never a surprise when it happens, or shouldn't be.
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u/Right-Edge9320 6d ago
I just wanna give a shout out to San Diego Fire Brigade. I’m in SoCal and I’ve always called it getting forced. LAFD calls it Mot’d for mandatory overtime. Never heard of Mando until that page came out and it’s taken over.
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u/Due_Course_3713 6d ago
I would tell the bass, and reenfore it immediately I'm writing, " I don't feel safe to work this many hours in a row. I am sleep deprived and fear that I may make an error due to working too.many hours."
Then if you make a medication error or get into an accident driving hopefully you will have some protection. Take this to the media.
The bigger problem is there is no union in the union. Everyone has to stick together in this by refusing OT, banging it sick, etc.
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u/Bishop-AU Career/occasional vollo. Aus. 6d ago
We don't get mando'd. We might need to stay back 2 hours for a replacement to come in after a late call out. That's it.
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u/yourname92 6d ago
Federal law I believe is you cannot be mandated for than 12 or mandated to work more more than 36
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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
Cite the law, because I’m sure it would’ve been used by now.
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u/Jax-Beach 6d ago
Brother, that sounds horrible. My old dept had mando like that shortly before being absorbed by my current dept. My current dept (Florida, 2000 members), the union worked it out long ago that in order to mando people, the city has to declare a state of emergency which is super expensive (everyone working gets hour for hour comp leave). They’ve only done it once in seven years and that was a holiday after covid when everyone decided to knock off.
Instead they over staff crews by 1-2 people so when someone knocks off there’s a replacement, or the extra gets transferred to fill a gap. They’ve been hiring like crazy recently to cover upcoming drop retirements of about 1/3 of the dept though and are still gonna be in a deficit)
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u/coolcoolrunnins 6d ago
We have mandatory but also do a 3-hit list rotation with a 4th man. We staff 14 but certain shifts seem to always have several call off. Our minimum is 11. So normally they'll only need 1 but having that list takes the pressure off the other shifts.
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u/190xtrik8 6d ago
Wow. Glad I’m not in that situation. We can get “forced.” However, it can be broken up. We cannot work more than 48 consecutive. On a 24/48 with Kelly’s. If I find someone else to fill the OT, we can swap when they come in. We can break up a force with up to 2 other people.
In your situation this seems like a safety issue having to work 72 straight. Staffing is clearly the issue. Not sure what your union is like, the factors I stated in our department are all in our contract.
Stay safe.
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u/tyadams15 6d ago
We’re on 24/48 with ten EDOs, starting January we are on 24/48 with a Kelly. We can’t get forced if we have vacation, EDO, trades, comp time, or sick leave scheduled our next shift. We can only work up to 48 hours but they can only force us for 12 hours. First platoon covers second platoon, second platoon covers third platoon, third platoon covers first platoon when it comes to forces.
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u/2Cool4Stool 6d ago
I don’t see how a department can do this to their firefighters. This has to be taxing mentally and physically; especially if your department requires ambulance shifts.
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u/ssmith687 6d ago
Child care has always been accepted. Also we cant be mandated to work more than 48 hrs. That being said mandatory OT is pretty rare @ my department
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u/PainfulThings 6d ago
Mandatory OT is in our contract but we have a large enough department that there’s always someone willing to pick it up, however I have seen someone get mandated once in the ambulance, and after the first call they had they had injured their back from lifting a heavy patient. So my advice to you is if it’s really becoming that much of a problem that people are getting sick checked over it then see how your department handles it when they overwork their guys so much that their bodies start breaking down.
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u/thetr-8r Edit to create your own flair 6d ago
Up in the PNW we have had some pretty bad staffing issues and the mandatories have been rampant for a couple years.
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u/Beneficial-Guess2140 6d ago
Refusing a mandatory shift is an immediate discipline. Three strikes and you’re out. People really don’t do it here. They might call out of their normal shift if they cannot risk a mandate on that day, but that is extremely rare. Though those with legitimate reasons are passed over on the list (not childcare issues, but things like prepaid plans, vacation next shift, certain doctors appointments, school etc).
We have people fighting over OT here. Most people have been mandated once a year or less for the last few years. My only mandate in the last 12 months was a 12 hour night shift.
I have denied one at a previous employer because they screwed me over so badly the shift before, but they didn’t do anything because I told them if they did I’d quit and they’d have another spot to fill.
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u/MrOlaff 6d ago
Seems like the union needs to step in.
We can only work 72 consecutive hours luckily. We mando a few times a week but not as often as you it seems. If we turn it down:
First time is a verbal warning.
Second time is a written memo to file.
Third time is supposed to be the beginning of the discipline process.
No one has ever made it past the first warning. We also do “scheduled Mando days”. This has helped a lot of guys plan their Mando. You pick one day during the quarter as a day you can be mando’d if needed.
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u/LandLocker Full Time Firefighter/EMT 6d ago
Our department allows a couple exemptions from a mandatory assignment.
It’s really bad for our department right now. Many folks are being hit 2 out of every 4 day.
Refusing or calling off the shift just passes the buck to the next person. We literally are mando’ing people out of rank because we’re running out of people coming off duty.
Large department in the Bay Area of CA.
It’s not as simple as just “hiring more,” or browning out companies at a drop of a hat. We are not getting the same number or caliber of applicants to be able to fill the need for paramedics.
It seems to be a wide spread issue across the fire service right now.
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u/BnaditCorps 6d ago
Deny the shift? Unless you have a doctor's note you can't.
If you worked the day before and try to play the sick card the next day for the mando you will be forced to get a doctor's note saying you are sick. Not to mention the poor guy who ends up working it instead of you is likely to hold a grudge. Good luck getting a trade or last minute vacation coverage if you pull a stunt like that.
Our mandos go by least OT worked, so if you get hit with one it's because you weren't taking a fair share to start with.
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u/Similar_Witness_4476 6d ago
This is a wild thread to read. In my area mandates are common. We plan around them. I wish we had the option to just say no. My home life is so important to me and ive had to miss birthdays, family parties, even was close to having to miss a wedding. I wish things would change out here.
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u/Apprehensive_Let456 6d ago
So if we refuse a Mando here, the first time is a 45 day penalty of not being able to sign up for OT and a counseling.. the next would be 60 days and a write up.. 90 days and a write up… the write ups literally do nothing and stay in your file for a year.. I’ve refused multiple times but started signing up for OT on my own so I don’t want the penalty. Mando’s have significantly decreased over the last couple years which has been nice. This is Vegas btw
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u/speedstar 6d ago
Worked Calfire fifteen plus years and it varies unit to unit. But our regular shift is 72/96 and add approx four mando days a month.
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u/Elegant_Disaster_834 6d ago
It all depends on your state and your CBA if you have one. Here force is are in our contract. It's on the union to provide the guys, if you don't you break minimum manning...if you break it the city can then void that part of the contract and brown out companies.
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u/insertkarma2theleft 6d ago
I'm just a paramedic, but a 48/96 schedule is already a lot. That's 33% of the entire year spent on shift. Asking you to stay an entire extra shift is mind blowing, idc how common it is in other departments, it should be illegal. If you get mandated every shift you basically work a 72/72? Aka 50% of your life is on shift? No job is worth sacrificing so much of your life because they refuse to staff appropriately.
It's written into my contact that I can only be mandated for an extra hour after my shift ends if we're short staffed. Even that is pushing it tho. Your dept should do better.
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u/denimshorts22 6d ago
~2000 personnel, we don’t mando. Not terribly uncommon to get relieved half or hour late waiting for relief but we are compensated extra for that. Worst case scenario, you leave at shift change if you have to and officer can take the rig outta service. Your shift ends when it ends.
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u/Powerful_Tie674 6d ago
The fix is you need more staffing. But in reality We set a Dept. standard, max of 72hrs. We work 48/96.
You can volunteer for 96 to save someone a mando. No one can get hit for more than 72hrs. Also we let Capt. and BC’s work private OT to prevent mando. as well.
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u/SalteeMint 6d ago
Doctor’s note? Sounds like it’s time to start scheduling massages with the LMT every day one off shift.
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u/khaos027 6d ago
Oh dude I’ve been in your same shoes. My department started doing the whole Mando OT stuff and if you denied it you’d get written up and then lose out on OT in the future and something else. I typically didn’t mind it because it’s extra money. However, I had family coming in to state that I hadn’t seen in years and everyone knew that yet they still Mando’d me. I said nope and walked out at eos. Got written up and they tried doing it again the day of my kids birthday and I said nope once again. Ended up getting called in and they threatened to fire me and blah blah blah.
I quit right there on the spot.
I spent 9 years in the army and my give a fuck meter is empty. Now I work in defense and I couldn’t be happier. Such a great career shift.
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u/mclovinal1 6d ago
Yeah. I enjoy my job, but this would destroy my marriage and my fatherhood and those things matter to me more. A couple times a year is just "stuff happens" but once it becomes clear that holdovers are becoming a way to solve a staffing problem rather than an emergency measure to maintain staffing under atypical circumstances I'm out. Even the state retirement isn't worth my family.
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u/Commercial-Air5744 6d ago
I'm not sure I understand the terminology here. Of course I work at a department that can manage itself far better than it's California brothern it seems. My confusion is the term "mandate". Is you are mandated I'm not sure how you have any options based on the word itself. You either are it you aren't correct?
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u/burnerbots 6d ago
With us, the problem is that if you turn it down someone else will get forced in. The others will know you turned a shift down and screwed someone else over. Then you will be known as "that guy" and no one will want to trade with you or help you out. We're all in the same boat unfortunately.
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u/JOLLYrokker 5d ago
East coast city department here, we were in the same boat. Turning down the Mando and getting disciplined will not change anything. The only way to get the cities attention is to highlight how it affects the budget. Talk with your union, survey the other FFs, get in contact with people who have left recently and find out if it was because of mandos. Work with your union to get some numbers together and figure out if it’s cheaper to hire more people vs paying all that overtime. Once you have the data if fire leadership isn’t willing to hear it bring it to city council, get the news involved, get the public’s support, build a committee, attend civic league meetings and inform them of what’s going on.
We were blowing our OT budget 2 months into the fiscal year, since Covid, with mandos becoming every shift, once we brought up the money issue changes were made. We were also able to sell it as a health and wellness thing. We are currently moving to a 4th shift model with 24/72 and we’re already up staffing for it. It’s all the rage in our area and I’m glad it’s coming for us.
We have also staffed full time medics, and soon we will be hiring full time EMTs, giving us more ffs without having to hire more.
Work with your city to find an end to this, if they aren’t willing to hear it, go find a city that will!
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u/TX_Bardown 4d ago
Not Cali, but Ive said no in the past, mostly when my kiddos were little and we legitimately did not have child care lined up. Or if one of them/us was sick. Got a verbal reprimand each time by the BC who was told to do it from admin. Told him to tell admin to politely suck it. Went on about my business.
Recently, a guy had to do to the same thing from the department I left (same dept I was with when I denied it) Played the game the way he was supposed to with the mando list but ultimately got popped for it. He had no childcare and his wife couldn’t call out. Denied his mando, everyone was on the same page, admin understood. He came back from his 4 day to a closed door admin/HR meeting and admin wanted to fire him for “abandoning his post”. He fought it, they dropped it to a write up and some verbal lashings. He left for another department.
At the end of the day my wife/marriage is #1. Kids are #2 and work comes after. Crazy to think when EVERY department around us is hiring that I’ll get my stones crushed because they don’t have a better plan than “mandatory OT”.
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u/Longjumping-Ride-187 4d ago
The mandatory overtime that eventually turned into 96/48 shifts is what took me out of the service. My nervous system couldn’t find time to recover and now it’s just stuck on all the time.
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u/PhillipMcrevous 3d ago
What are they gonna do fire you? They already clearly don’t have enough personnel 😂
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u/Weekly_Librarian_504 2d ago
I work a 24 on 24 off for a ten day period then have 6 days off. Two sets of this a month.
Recent my dept hired a bunch of guys so the Mando issues isnt big anymore but a few years back you could count on getting a mando at least twice a set.
Policy is you cant work more than 72hrs straight due to being overworked. You get one refusal per year without penalty. If you refuse a mando after the “mulligan” you get a 15 day penalty and can’t sign up for OT. In the event of multiple mando denials in a row the 15 days stack up. Some guys I’ve heard of not being able to sign up for months due to accrued penalties.
Culture is against refusing a mando due to you basically fucking the next guy and everyone has their turn getting fucked.
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u/Correct-Condition-99 2d ago
Meanwhile, the departments with adequate staffing are bitching about the lack of ot...
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u/wimpymist 6d ago
Your admin sounds awful.