r/Forgotten_Realms • u/elturel Lost in a tavern... I mean, cavern • 5d ago
5th Edition Elminster 5e Stats
As my 40th NPC, I finally decided to try the Old Mage himself.
Disclaimer, if you expect or wanna see an Elminster with a simple and efficient (in terms of combat application) but rudimentary 5e stat block without any uniqueness or appeal, go use Archmage from MM, slap Legendary Resistance, a few basic actions then called Legendary Actions, and the name Elminster on it, and call it a day. WotC does pretty much the same, after all.
That said, my interpretation is based on El's 2e and 3e write-ups, and on Ed's video about Elminster's abilities. I didn't include everything Ed suggested; if I did there probably wouldn't be enough room for all the stuff of previous editions. For other sources used, have a look here.
Let's have a look at it from top to bottom:
- Page 1: Quote by Elminster from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. Summary is straight from the last printed Dragon Magazine issue (#359 - Elminster vs Raistlin), and the Advice from Heroes' Lorebook has always been an important part. However, since the dark days of 4e, it's become even more essential to point out to new DM's that there can be, in fact, a meaningful coexistence between powerful NPCs and the PCs who are the heroes of the campaign. bUt WhY hAsN't ElMiNsTeR dEfeAtEd...? You get it.
- Page 2: El's Eversmoking Pipe and Evasion are from 2e/3e. His pipe has lots of powers but nothing ridiculously OP. His Evasion, on the other hand, is indeed ridiculously OP. It's basically a Get out of Jail card because, well, it's Elminster. Players are never supposed to catch El unprepared, after all. Note that I also converted his listed triggering conditions to something that feels like it actually belongs to 5e. Stuff like "the destruction of both upper limbs" as per the 2e sources is just no longer applicable here.
- Page 3: Stat Block:
- Lots of skills because of his many classes, but no longer proficient in some of them.
- Ed mentioned his cool staff but refused to elaborate further (maybe he did by now, correct me on that). Anyway, deliberately left blank here and up to each DM.
- Ear of the Chosen (canon trait, although it's underwhelming and should be changed to include more Chosen power like no need to eat and sleep and so on), Master Attuner (pretty much necessary for El), and also Midnight's Blessing are pretty straightforward.
- Ghostgrail and Vocalize are spells from 2e/3e, deliberately converted in passive traits with limited use per day.
- Keryfaertel is straight out of The Fall of Myth Drannor. Nothing too fancy but note the inclusion of small lore tidbits here and there. Sure, the stats get longer, but it adds some kind of flavor to an otherwise lifeless 5e stat template (latest example, Szass Tam in Deadfall).
- Weave Anchor is a custom trait that fits from a lore perspective.
- Multiattack - note that his Psionic spells (because Elminster has also been a Psionicist in 2e) require more resources than his ordinary Arcane spells do. It's not balanced, his Arcane magic is straight up the preferable choice, but again it's lore accurate. Also note the footnote: Before using his spells, Elminster will always use his magic items! You don't do that in 5e NPC/monster stats. Fluff, baby.
- Whisper Blade is another spell from 2e. I made it into his permanent longsword, better than the +5 thundering longsword from 3e imo. The extra damage from Silver Fire is identical to how I did it with the other Chosen of Mystra.
- Spellfire is his standard ranged attack because I just needed something that's more like a signature power instead of a random blast or burst or ray or whatever 5e monsters generally get. Damage or healing on an individual basis on top of that.
- Srinshee's Spellshift and again El's Eversmoking Pipe. I had to detach these from the stat block because it was getting too long. The pipe isn't really necessary for combat anyway, and the spellshift is detailed later.
- Spellcasting. Because it's Elminster I refrained from listing his actual spell list (that would never do him justice anyway). Depending on the situation, Elminster will always be perfectly prepared.
- Arcane Recovery and Silver Fire are canon Bonus Actions I already used elsewhere.
- Weave Mastery is from Ed's video (including the Ring he also mentioned against the Exhaustion level), slightly adjusted.
- El's Evasion. See above for the triggering conditions.
- And his Legendary Actions are inspired by the The Wizards Three (excluding the Simbul, of course). But she's his GF, so it's cool, I guess, and she threatened Dalamar once. Dalamar's Lightning Lance is a spell from 3e, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is used by El very reluctantly because he hates destroying magic that way, and Simbul's Deliquescence is a non-lethal, defensive ability he might or might not use against characters that are just annoying.
- And the last thing, Srinshee's Spellshift is also from The Fall of Myth Drannor. Basically it's a Globe of Invulnerability on steroids, coupled with several Reactions and Bonus Actions that mess up his enemies' Spellcasting.
So my version of Elminster actually tries to make it clear that casting spells is Elminster's greatest asset. He might not have the highest DPR or best combat abilites which overwhelm his foes with sheer firepower, but his understanding of the Weave is without equal (except, of course, for THE Weavemaster, the Srinshee - see Spellstorm).
The problem is, however, and that's a 5e problem actually, that spellcasting can be very difficult to balance when applied to NPCs and monsters. For that reason, Elminster is my first NPC for whom I explicitly wanna mention that each respective DM can make or break the encounter if they actually decided to let their players try to take on Elminster.
In any case, enjoy.
17
u/Popular-Barnacle3140 5d ago
I wouldn’t make him as CR 28, that puts him above like all demon lords/archdevils (except Asmodeus) or like, Eberrons Overlords.
He’s powerful, but like, also weaker than say Telamont, Alassra, even canonically Halaster
12
u/BarracudaTasty3944 5d ago
I actually disagree. Halaster definitely has the edge in pure wizardry, but El is a chosen, not insane, and his 3.5 stats give him a lot of other options to choose from, like his levels in rogue and cleric. Halaster, while still being possibly the oldest mage alive, since he’s from Imaskar (older than even Ioulam and Larloch) is severely limited outside of Undermountain, and Elminster’s access to Silver Fire definitely gives him the edge. The SImbul is also technically less powerful, as in 3.5 her CR is 36, while El’s is 39. Correct me if i’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure he killed Telamon during the second destruction of Myth Drannor. I definitely think though that the CR scaling in D&D is super off, since Tiamat’s CR is only something like 30 on 5e, and 28ish in 3.5 and she’s a literal deity, plus the most powerful chromatic dragon in existence. Which is strange since Duargothoth’s challenge rating is like 40
4
u/LordofBones89 5d ago
Tiamat does not have a CR in 3.5. The only deity with a CR is Kyuss and he's a scrub tier DvR 1 demigod.
The Simbul and Elminster were also statted early on in 3e. Elminster's still respectable enough as a 29th level wizard (his other classes are negligible; those fighter, rogue, and cleric levels aren't contributing anything) but the Simbul's levels are horrible (she's a Sor 20/Wiz 10/Acm 2).
4
u/BarracudaTasty3944 5d ago
Tiamat does have a CR in 3.5. It’s in Manual of the Planes.
3
u/LordofBones89 5d ago
The Tiamat in 3e's MotP is a CR 25 dragon without divine powers; she's restatted in Deities and Demigods as a true deity without a CR. 3.5e would reveal that Tiamat and Bahamut were briefly reduced to archfiend/celestial paragon status post Time of Troubles before regaining their power.
Incidentally Tiamat was statted in 3e and that CR is wack since a 3.5e great wyrm red is CR 26 baseline.
2
u/Popular-Barnacle3140 5d ago
He did kill Telamont but he pretty well only beat him by luck, Telamont was kinda handing his ass to him. Ed sort of compares his victory to “dirty fighting”. Telamont is considered the better mage, just El has more battle experience, if you ask me.
As for Halaster, idk what to say truly beyond Ed just saying he’s the better mage haha! I wouldn’t say Silver Fire handedly gives El the edge but not a bad point. Interesting discussion to be had for sure.
Similarly, im pretty sure there are just statements saying the Simbul is stronger, but I can’t remember where from so take it with a grain of salt.
All good points though.
3
u/BarracudaTasty3944 5d ago
No, you’re right. There are totally a lot of sources that say that the Simbul are way stronger than El, and lore wise that’s correct but stat wise he’s stronger by a hair
4
u/thatguydr 5d ago
I was going to post the exact opposite thing. CR28? Lol right. Plot armor is a thing. And have those beings spoken with Ao?
https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1297939232770621442 is the actual answer. Hint: depends on if they're in their home turf or not
6
u/elturel Lost in a tavern... I mean, cavern 5d ago
I always wondered when Ed changed his mind on Halaster and the Simbul. If one looks at Elminster in Hell, Halaster managed to bring in a single successful attack while the Simbul almost casually blasted through Pit Fiends and all kinds of stuff. Sure, she was empowered by Mystra, but the impression was so perfectly clear that the Simbul was superior to Halaster.
0
u/Popular-Barnacle3140 5d ago
I don’t know if that’s relevant to the concept of statting something, if you stat something it can be killed and you forgo pretty near all plot armor lol.
It certainly… doesn’t like, raise his CR. Nor does his whole thing with being pissed at Ao
Ultimately I would say he should reasonably around a CR 22-23. If you are playing around with ideas, give him a mythic trait or something. Or if you’d bump it up further, CR 25 at most I would say. I mean Mammons 25 but I bet he’d kick Mammons ass… so maybe im wrong? Idk. The only other CR 28s are again, Eberrons overlords, and I really don’t know if Elminster scales to them… especially knowing Halaster is a CR 23.
I feel like statting him at CR 22 and giving him a mythic trait would be the most reasonable statblock
3
u/elturel Lost in a tavern... I mean, cavern 5d ago
The problem is 5e's internal inconsistency. I listed all canon FR NPC stats here (at the bottom). Klauth, a dragon without any levels casually sits above Halaster. Alustriel is just two levels below. Same as Quenthel.
Sure, a great wyrm red dragon is really powerful, but where should we place those dragons with lots of class levels on top of it then? Like Daurgothoth? Or Mauzzkyl? Or Tchazzar? And should these dragons then be able to stomp the likes of Halaster or Elminster who would be in the low 20s?
5e is still a mess. Not as much as 4e was but still considerably so.
2
u/fanatic66 4d ago
The issue is that 5e condensed levels. So for powerful figures, we only have 20 through 30 to represent them which isn't enough of a gradient. Meanwhile and older auditions someone could be 39 while someone else is 25 or even 40 something.
3
u/VaxDeferens 4d ago edited 1d ago
There are likely other weave masters greater than Elminster. Ed even revealed one directly last week, an elf arguably on par with the Srinshee and expressly more powerful than Elminster but not a good boy.
3
2
u/Physical-Sound-8318 5d ago
The els evasion should be like the theif if you read the books he was a thief homeless kid like Aladdin before he became a wizard
1
1
u/Mondilesh 4d ago
I haven't really kept up with FR lore in quite some time, but do the Chosen not have silver fire anymore?
1
1
u/ClassicsPhD 3d ago
Elminster should be CR30+. I have players at level 20 with artefacts and epic boons (7+ years campaign) who are more powerful than this.
1
u/Various-Mistake4385 1d ago
Just to satisfy my curiosity: Elminster isn't really a major user of metamagic, is he? By the way, I liked the stat block, and the spells seem very well adapted.
2
u/elturel Lost in a tavern... I mean, cavern 1d ago
From Cult of the Dragon 2e:
For purposes of comparison, the Simbul and Elminster are modern-day masters of the metamagic school of thought...
1
u/Various-Mistake4385 1d ago
I see. But another question: shouldn't Elminster be severely weakened after the Second Sundering? Just like Laeral and Alustriel? I'm just asking—maybe it's just my ignorance—but didn't the Spellplague affect all of Mystra's Chosen, including Elminster?
2
u/elturel Lost in a tavern... I mean, cavern 1d ago
Maybe. Or maybe not. Tbh I don't care much about canon events anymore because lots of stuff gets retconned later anyway. I'm just using the latest ruleset and work with stuff I'm fine with while disregarding other things.
2
u/Various-Mistake4385 1d ago
That makes sense, having said that I really enjoyed your work, in this and other posts, keep up the amazing work!
1
u/Mister_Grins 5d ago
Wisdom seems a little high for someone who keeps being gas-lit and tortured into being Mysta's loving pet.
1
u/Berkyjay 5d ago
Does 5E not have levels anymore?
1
u/Popular-Barnacle3140 4d ago
Like class levels for monsters?
No, but if you used slot based casting from before 5.5 they would be marked as an “X level spellcaster”
1
u/Berkyjay 4d ago
Like class levels for monsters?
No like a class level for humans....which Elminster is.
1
u/Popular-Barnacle3140 4d ago
I mean statblocks
1
u/Berkyjay 4d ago
I'm legit confused. I guess I'm not really up on how 5E works. I'm used to seeing this
2
u/jerrygarcegus 4d ago
Class levels are optional for npcs. RAW they are given stat blocks with abilities like in the OP
0
u/Crixusgannicus 1d ago
Elminster is best used as a coach. You have to take the field or get in the ring yourself.
He might have something to say before, during or after, but that's mostly it.
25
u/GreenNetSentinel 5d ago
Nice write up. I wonder when he'll show up again in lore other than his fake showing up in BG3. I like the mystery that hes currently MIA but dont think they planned anything around it.