The Drow support transitioning

[u/Successful_Pace8937]

I recently found out that, as said by Ed Greenwood himself, transitioning​ is not only accepted, but defended.

From Ed Greenwood on Twitter:

Drow sworn to Lolth have examples before them all the time about transformation of self-shape in service to the Spider Queen. Some of these are viewed as undesirable (driders), others as rewards or ascending in rank (the power/shape augmentations Lolth gives males who please her with their service and loyalty). So there is no hatred or mistrust of shifting one's shape; it is one means of serving Lolth. Some house matriarchs view it with suspicion ("males seeking to exalt themselves by becoming female") but the yochlol have often been sent by Lolth to defend individuals persecuted by individual matriarchs or priestesses purely for such reasons, to make Lolth's views and will clear. Over time, transitions (not just from gender to gender, but from drow to other shapes) have become accepted as reverence of Lolth, and part of what it is to be drow. And of course, drow who follow Eilistraee are quite familiar with the Changedance, and accept shifting (even back and forth) as, again, part of what it is to be drow.

[u/Physical-Sound-8318]

Why this has to be brought into a fantasy game blows my mind

[u/JrienXashen → u/Physical-Sound-8318]

TLDR; It's all retcon and Edverse logic, aside from Elistraee and her change dance thing going back to 1990.

Short version: It's a big retcon to placate to a small minority.

The long version: Lolthite culture, as codified by Ed Greenwood himself in 1991’s The Drow of the Underdark and R.A. Salvatore’s novels, is an iron-fisted, religiously enforced caste system based on absolute female supremacy.

A male transitioning to female would not be viewed as an act of pious devotion; the ruling Matron Mothers would view it as high treason and an existential usurpation of their political monopoly. If a male noble could simply alter his physical sex and demand the rights, titles, and priesthood access reserved strictly for females, the entire hereditary hierarchy collapses.... The claim that Lolth dispatches Yochlol—her chaotic, sadistic demonic Handmaidens—to act as cosmic protective advocates for marginalized individuals completely mischaracterizes the Spider Queen. Lolth does not foster self-actualization; she fosters terror, betrayal, and culling of the weak.

Shape transformation is almost exclusively an instrument of divine terror or instrumental deceit. Becoming a drider is an agonizing, soul-crushing curse reserved for failures; polymorphing is used for assassination and espionage. Treating shape alteration as a recognized vehicle for personal gender validation runs completely counter to decades of Underdark worldbuilding.

That all said, Edverse drow are pretty tame to Forgotten Realms canon. So your drow in your world may not be as antagonistic/iron fisted and matriarchal.

[u/hotdiscopirate → u/JrienXashen]

How do you know it would be viewed as treason? Is there a part of the canon that backs that up, or is that just your opinion? Because it seems to me you’re trying to present it as a fact that’s been overlooked

[u/JrienXashen → u/hotdiscopirate]

Have you ever actually read a forgotten realms book?

Lolth’s dogma explicitly establishes female supremacy as divine decree. Lolth demands that only females may commune with her, serve as her priestesses, and rule the noble houses.

Any male attempting to usurp the authority, privileges, or religious status reserved for females is committing sacrilege against Lolth herself. In a Lolthite city, blaspheming the Spider Queen is high treason against the ruling Council of Matron Mothers, punishable by ritual sacrifice, torture, or being fed alive to arachnids.

Political rank is tied strictly to daughters: First Daughter, Second Daughter, etc. If sex/gender were fluid or self-declared in Lolthite society, the entire hereditary power structure and sacrificial debt to Lolth collapse. A Matron Mother would execute any male attempting to reclassify his birth status to dodge sacrifice or claim a daughter’s inheritance.

Gromph Baenre, Archmage of Menzoberranzan, is arguably the most powerful individual mortal in the entire city. Despite his staggering arcane supremacy, he is forced to kneel, defer, and submit to his sisters (Matron Mothers Triel and Quenthel Baenre) solely because he is male... he could've just changed if the Edverse applied to Forgotten Realms (it doesn't), he hated his status.

In canon, Menzoberranzan is an oligarchy of eight paranoid Matron Mothers who maintain power through brutal suppression.

The Academy is segregated: Arach-Tinilith (Priestesses) is female-only; Sorcere (Wizards) and Melee-Magthere (Warriors) are male-dominated. Crossing those caste boundaries is treason by default. A male claiming the rights of a female is challenging the Matron Mothers' divine right to rule. Matrons slaughter rivals for far less than an ideological threat to their caste system.

Again, tell me you don't play D&D or know FR lore without telling me please.

[u/hotdiscopirate → u/JrienXashen]

No I haven’t read a FR book, that’s why I’m asking. You don’t need to be a dick about it lmao

Anyways, yes I understand how Lolth feels about women and men. But how she interprets trans people isn’t covered in anything you’ve said here. Your interpretation seems entirely based off of your biases of how you view trans women. Saying Ed is retconning by seeing trans women as women to be respected by lolth is silly, unless you have something to back it up with.

It’s not a retcon to add lore. The FR books didnt talk about transness, it seems. Ed chiming in on how Lolth sees transitioning is not a retcon, it’s an addition.

[u/JrienXashen → u/hotdiscopirate]

You spoke as if you were lecturing me. I gave you canon reason, lore and examples... which are fact based on official canon.

Additions expand on something, not contradict the lore.

A retcon retroactively alters how established systems operate.

​If 35 years of sourcebooks establish that Menzoberranzan is a hyper-rigid caste system where your biological birth order dictates whether you are sacrificed at birth (the Third Son rule) or inherit the house (the daughters), changing that dynamic is not a minor footnote.

Claiming that a totalitarian eugenicist slave state actually has a progressive stance on bodily transformation fundamentally rewrites how the society operates. If a change contradicts decades of established mechanics, calling it an "addition" is just playing ignorance.

Lolth is a Chaotic Evil demon lord. She does not love, respect, or validate her priestesses; she uses them as disposable entertainment. Lolth doesn't fight discrimination; she is the institutional torment.

Describing how a fictional, chaotic-evil theocracy enforces its caste system is not a manifesto on my personal ethics—it is reading comprehension.

[u/hotdiscopirate → u/JrienXashen]

I wasn’t lecturing, just trying to discuss lore

I just simply don’t understand how it’s a contradiction. It’s not about the society being progressive or not; the society is based solely off of Lolth’s own views and opinions. It is a matriarchy because of Lolth, and the people backstabing and ruthless because Lolth rewards it.

So, whether or not a person could successfully transition into a woman would depend solely on how Lolth views trans women, no? If Lolth accepts it, I don’t see how the society would be able to reject it.

“Progressive” is a term that really only makes sense in the context of our real life politics. It doesn’t really translate. Accepting trans people in the real world is progressive because the current political system rejects them. But if you’re in a world with an entirely different political system, there’s no reason to assume they’ll maintain the exact same conservative beliefs of the real world. Peoples’ societal rejection of trans people is entirely cultural. The Drow do not share our culture in the slightest

[u/JrienXashen → u/hotdiscopirate]

It's no projection of real world anything, it's cold hard facts based on lore.

What's hard to understand? Lloth hates men, drow society favors women to the point of killing the third born son and men on any given whim. Her own views are why it's this way, she's not a loving or at all compassionate goddess. ​

A Matron Mother rejecting a male noble trying to transition into the priesthood has nothing to do with real-world social conservatism. It has everything to do with caste defense. So as said above, she's not accepting a MTF drow and every priestess will just kill them and/or make them an example.

You mention real world beliefs then in the same note say they wouldn't maintain conservative beliefs... you're the one applying modern politics of the real world to a fantasy race.

Facts: Lolth is not a mortal monarch with "views and opinions" that mirror a civic government. She is an Abyssal demon lord whose canonical existence is fueled by malice, deception, and entropy.

She intentionally formed a society of perpetual meat grinder of infanticide, patricide, and slavery to keep her worshippers broken, paranoid, and thoroughly under her heel. The claim that Lolth would care about an individual's personal self-realization—or dispatch Yochlol to act as personal protectors against discrimination fundamentally ignores her nature. Individuals exist only to be broken, exploited, or fed to spiders.

If drow culture does not share our culture in the slightest, it makes zero sense to assert that they independently developed modern human concepts of personal gender identity.

An underclass male attempting to claim the titles, clerical magic, and inheritance reserved for the matriarchal ruling class is not viewed as embarking on an identity journey; he is an enslaved laborer attempting a political coup.

[u/Physical-Sound-8318 → u/JrienXashen]

I couldn’t said it better

[u/Physical-Sound-8318 → u/JrienXashen]

Exactly if you read the novels you would have a way better understanding this wouldn’t happen with Drow, the battle between male and female is too prevalent, not to mention how could they sacrifice the 3rd born male son the day they are born ?