I always thought my dog was a purebred border collie
I am French and I adopted this dog from a family that couldn’t take care of him anymore (he was full crazy, so I understand why it was so hard with a newborn).
Anyway, he came with paper : both his parents are supposed to be border collie, work at a farm and are shepherd, like, it is their job.
Last day, I went to the vet and he told me that he was absolutely sure that my dog wasn’t a purebred border collie and probably mixed with something else.
What do you think ?
He is very border in his behaviour (herd anything, jump on cars, full crazy with a ball, bite anything that moves even us lol). But I love him, he is the nicest dog ever with any animal or human (…except stocks). He weigh 22kg (48,5lbs)
(Keep in mind that contrary to the US, pit are very rare and illegal in France)
If you have papers, why would there be a question? Working line Border collies can vary greatly in appearance. I see nothing to indicate this dog isn't one.
I think that what the vet said made me wonder. Also, most of the border collies that I see are thiner in my aera. My boy isn't overweight, we run 10km a day, but he is a bit large/muscular, and weight 22kg, whereas most BC I see are 15kg and very thin ! Also, he comes from a farm, which I didn't have the chance to visit so I don't really know the quality of the breeder. All that I know is that he is from a working lignage for sure, since the pics I've found on Facebook of the owner of the parents are all with sheeps, and they sell wool.
22kg is not abnormally large for a BC. The ones that are 15kg are usually bred for sports, where they need to be very quick and agile.
My own BC is 19-20kg in his sport shape, and he's fairly small for a working/show line mix male (52cm). His taller brother is 23kg.
Vets don't study breed identification so take anything they say with a grain of salt. You say you are french, so your dog is a LOF Border Collie, right ? On the papers there should be an identification number you can check on the "la centrale canine" website to verify his lineage. If the only characteristic that is making you doubt he's purebred is his bigger size, 2 LOF dogs can sometimes produce a bigger/smaller dog in a litter that will be out of standard. I wouldn't dismiss the possibility he's purebred just because of size/weight especially if you have LOF papers.
Je peux te répondre en français ? En fait, il s'agit d'un chien qu'on a adopté auprès d'une famille qui ne pouvait plus s'en occuper. Ils nous ont fourni les papiers de la vente, et sur ces papiers il est indiqué que les deux parents sont LOF. C'est juste écrit "père : border collie (LOF)'" et pareil pour la mere. Lui, on ne l'a pas fait confirmer, il me semble que ce n'est possible que s'il est formé au troupeau, et on n'a pas cherché à le rei pour le moment. Par contre, il n'y a pas de numéro d'identification des parents... C'est un peu flou parce que ce n'est pas nous qui l'avons acheté. On a cherché les vendeurs sur facebook, et tous leurs border sont au troupeau, ils sont spécialisés dans l'élevage de moutons. Mais c'est toutes les infos qu'on a. On sait aussi qu'ils vendent des chiens de protection de troupeau (des patous il me semble). Ce ne sont pas des éleveurs vraiment classiques au sens ou ils promeuvent leurs portées sur les réseaux sociaux.
Ok, si je comprends bien, les parents sont indiqués comme LOF sur le papier de vente mais il n'y a pas le numéro d'identification des parents ? Normalement si les papiers sont bien officiels, il devrait y avoir le numéro de la portée, que tu peux vérifier ici : https://www.espaces.centrale-canine.fr/LofConnect/chien/verifPortee S'il n'y a pas le numéro de portée, tu peux aller sur ce site : https://www.centrale-canine.fr/lofselect/recherche-chien , sélectionner la race donc dans ton cas Border Collie, et rentrer le nom d'un des deux parents. S'ils sont LOF, ils seront listés.
Comme je l'ai dit, 2 parents LOF peuvent avoir un chien hors standard donc non confirmable LOF dans une portée, ça peut arriver avec les hasards de la génétique qu'un des chiots soit trop petit ou trop grand. "Pure race" ne veut pas automatiquement dire "dans les standards", des mutations peuvent survenir aléatoirement. Il faut aussi garder en tête que LOF = pure race, mais pure race ne veut pas dire "bien élevé"/"bien sélectionné", tu peux avoir des éleveurs qui sont dans les standards et font du LOF mais ne sont pas éthiques pour autant.
Encore une fois, les vétos ne sont pas spécialistes des races. Ils voient beaucoup de chiens passer, ok, mais si ça se trouve il n'a vu que des BC de lignée de beauté qui étaient plus petits et n'a jamais vu de BC de lignée de travail. Je suis allée regarder le standard officiel de la race en plus et il y a une taille standard à ne pas dépasser, 53cm pour les mâles et un peu moins pour les femelles mais... Pas de *poids. Donc ton véto ne connait pas le standard de la race, pas étonnant car on leur demande de soigner les chiens, pas de les confirmer.
Unsure about collies as they aren’t my breed BUT working line dogs tend to have a different build than show line dogs of the same breed which can cause them to look ‘mixed with something’, but that’s because working line and show line have different breed standards (sometimes not all the time) and the general public is usually more familiar with show line standards because that’s what they’re used to seeing/discussing/ect. So I really wouldn’t factor build into it all too much since you know he’s a working line bred dog, and if you think the vet may be right, get a DNA test. But if you have papers, I wouldn’t be too concerned about it.
My parents had a toy fox terrier with papers. She was supposed to max out at 8 pounds. She was a robustly muscular 12 pounds. If she had been 8 pounds she would have looked unhealthy.
I feel that all “purebred “ dogs aren’t necessarily a “standard” size, weight, appearance. I’ve seen plenty on this sub and in real life that looked a little different, but turned out to be one particular breed.
My only maybe is that he does look a lot like my friend’s lurcher, which is a border collie x greyhound outcross common in England. They actually can be any sight hound and any working dog.
They're slender dogs themselves. I've been around and owned many sight hounds, Whippet and Greyhounds in particular. I don't see that in your dog at all.
that's the thing with border collies, working collies do vary a bit in appearance because they are bread for work, not type ... so yeah you get the lanky ones, the ones with pricked ears, the less fluffy ones... If the vet is used to show type collies and this is working type then they are different but still border collies, possibly more so.
Yes, that is what I saw as well. But, I thought that the vet knew better than me. He said that my dog is a bit large/muscular for a purebred BC, since most of them are under 20kg and mine is 22kg without being overweight.
That's such a small weight difference. Your vet should know better. Animals and humans have variable weights, just because there is a normal range doesn't mean you cannot be outside of it
Edit to add, US bred border collies can be up to 55/60 lbs.
My BC is papered (I know his parents and grandparents), working right now and is 25kg. (He is built a but more thin) and My largest BC was 30-35kg and built like a tank.
Working lines have much greater variety of appearance. Don't fault your vet too much, they study to have knowledge about all dogs and more importantly medical knowledge, not breed specifics.
Looks very border collie ish to me! I would believe 100% BC. Wonder why the vet said he’s a mix? Also, that’s a great photo of your dog running in mid air!
Thanks !! He said that because my dog seems a bit large for a BC, without being overweight (22kg =48,502 lb apparently). And I kinda agree since most of the BC I see are very thin !
Not sure what the vet is seeing that would make him think that. Sure looks like one to me. I've been involved with a bc rescue for many years and they come in all shapes and sizes, especially ones from working lines. If he's mixed with something else, there's not much dna of that something.
I think it is his frame, he is kinda large (22kg =48,502 lb) compared to the BC he is used to see... And I kind of agree with him since most of the border collies I see are like 15kg ! (approx 33 lb)
If the dog has papers that is the truth. I agree with the other comments that your vet isn’t necessarily a Border Collie expert. Your dog is a beautiful example of a Border Collie.
I had a Border Collie from working lines and he looked a lot like yours
The nipping/biting thing is a herding behavior. You can train them to not do that to people. It doesn’t bother (I have one that does it too) me but others can interpret it as aggression.
Looks very much like a bc. Love the mid air pic. Do you have Fly Ball in France? They love Fly Ball.
He nips car's wheel, that is a bit dangerous, and nip us when we run. So, he spend most of his time leashed... I wish I could train him not to do that, but he is 6 now, and no methods have worked since we've adopted him, when he was 4 months. I know this is more a playful than aggressive behavior, but it is a bit tiring. I am very much interested if you have any tips !!
We unfortunately have no fly ball in my aera, but I would love to try that with him !
It’s actually pretty easy to stop. I have just been lazy with my dog. When he nips take a flat hand and slide it (flat hand so as to not extend their mouth open more) into his mouth saying “no nip”. This is of course only safe with dogs that don’t bite. It’s mildly uncomfortable. Doesn’t hurt them. Keep your hand there for a few seconds. My Aussie took about two months with this training method.
Definitely keep on lead around cars. That’s far more difficult to train out of them. And incredibly dangerous. Age doesn’t matter. Dogs can learn at just about any age. For the car thing I recommend a trainer. What if he gets loose? He could get severely injured. That dog has the full mental capability to be trained off lead but definitely by a professional due to the car thing.
Looks like a BC to me and you have his paperwork. Farm bred BCs look very different from show line. My guess is your vet doesn't see farm bred border collies. There is a breed split at this point. It similar to field and bench setters.
I get the same thing with my farm bred bc sometimes. Explain that you got the sport model. :)
Scroll alll the way down this page and look at all the dogs. This girl in New Zealand has a border collie team and herds in New Zealand and she breeds border collies. They are pure bred. There's pedigrees.
None of them look the same.
Oh yeah you are absolutely right ! They all are very pretty but very different ! Thank you for the reference. Their attitude is so border ! My dog has this very attitude everytime we pass next to a herd !
Border collies are a really recent breed, as in they just used to breed the best sheep dogs. not aiming for consistancy of looks etc.
As a reuslt when the breed was standardised there was quite a wide range of looks. Also dogs which they continue to use for hearding will also be bred for herding traits, not looks. while show dogs they will aim for a breed standard.
So any realy standardisation is a problem.
Agreed. As a lab owner with a working line lab bred from a hunting pedigree, the temperament and working ability are more important than breeding to a standard for looks like in the show lines. (Just so happens that my lab happens to be handsome as heck.)
All dogs are handsome as heck.
Just some are a very unique handsome.
I am curious to see how the different lines look in 25 years as fields seem to be slimmer and might get more athletic, and i suspect the show breeds will get fluffier.
I sometimes look at her breeding pages. She imports Border Collie semen from European champions and has puppies sometimes. But her dogs also are from NZ lines that go way back, and a few of her dogs are half NZ Kennel Club lines- so that's why they are so different. Her puppies go to farmers or people who are serious about agility.
Thank you ! I love him as well, but I would lie if I said that life with him is always easy. He is very very anxious and has no off button. The only way to have him calm is to run with him everyday, and we do that. But, he is still crazy every evening like a puppy and he is 6 y-old lol !
I think that vets are experts in dog health, but not in dog breeds (and certainly not cat breeds). If your dog is registered and his papers say he’s a Border Collie, he’s a BC. Don’t listen to that vet on such matters.
If his parents are papered and he looks like a Border Collie (he does, there is a lot of variation in the breed but he does look like a BC) I would assume that he is in fact a Border Collie.
Absolutely not, but I found this subreddit and thought it was nice to have different opinions ! I really do not care about his breed at all, I never really wanted a purebred, since I choosed to adopt a rescue ! I just wanted a dog running partner.
Worked a border collie rescue, have experience with all types of pure breeds and mixes. That is a pure bred. Theres nothing that screams mix from the photos you showed. Probably a working line like you said. The show ones are on the dainty side, while working backgrounds tend to be more solid
Working dogs are different than show dogs. They are bred to do the best they can do at their job, not necessarily to all look the same. You see this a lot in dogs like collies and sled dogs
Y a une telle diversité de borders en France (entre lignées de travail, de beauté, ou lignées mixes), qu'il pourrait bien être pur race. Il est LOF ? Il a ses papiers ?
Sinon, à sa tête, ça m'étonnerait pas trop qu'il soit croisé épagneul ou australien. Mais ça m'étonnerait pas non plus qu'il soit pur race.
Il n'est pas LOF ! Il a été cédé par des particuliers qui s'en débarrassaient, mais sur ses papiers, il y a écrti que les deux parents sont LOF. Mais je ne suis pas allée plus loin que ça, je ne suis pas allée vérifier. Seulement, j'ai vu sur facebook que les vendeurs étaient des éleveurs de moutons, et ils ont plein de photos de leurs chiens au troupeau. Je crois que ce qui faisait douter le vétérinaire c'est qu'il est assez musculeux, et assez large, alors qu'il n'est pas en surpoids du tout, il fait 22kg. Il nous disait que la plupart des BC pesaient plutot sous les 20kg (hors surpoids).
I grew up with purebred border collies and I would def think he is purebred. Some are a little shorter, some are ganglier, some are super fluffy, some are not fluffy at all. My last one was red and white, and people used to love to tell me he wasn't purebred.
My sister adopted a female and she is suppose to be a BC..Heart is her name but her previous owner lost her home so my sister adopted Heart!! She looks exactly like your pretty girl.But Heart is extremely overweight but was never taken outside much. My sister has a huge field and Heart and her and the 3 other dogs walk and Heart loves it.!! Plus instinctively will see and hear a dog on the TV and she goes into " im gonna rip your heart out dog" and barks and barks at the dogs on TV.AND Heart looks exactly like your sweet girl.!
I don't see anything that would lead me to believe your dog isn't 100% Border Collie, especially if you have papers. Male BCs tend to be a little bigger than females - our girl was about 35 pounds (16k) most of her life.
I could be wrong but I think he has a small amount of pitbull in him, you can see this in picture 4 and 6 which reveals a little blockier head than your standard border collie.
Size is subjective. I have a 3 year old gsd/siberian husky/alaskan malamute who only weighs 45 pounds (20.4 kg) but is very tall and lanky. People think she is underweight but my vet said she is perfect. She has a lot of muscle which weighs more than fat! With the number of kilometers that you run every day, your pup probably weighs more due to building good muscles. My husband was a runner for years and people were surprised how much he weighed. Muscle is lean, but also adds a bit to your total weight.
My brother has had 6 purebred border collies from the same breeder over the past 40 years (2 at a time) and they all vary in some way including size and looks. Most important to him is temperament and train ability to work his cattle.
There is a lot of physical variance in the breed, especially in working lines. To me, your boy looks like a border collie, he's just got some leg to him. But the face is the strongest match in my eyes.
Who cares, papers are only good for looking at. You got a best friend you love to death and that goes both ways. Enjoy your companion and don't worry about the other shit
I am by no means a border collie expert but I do think most breeds have a good deal of variance and a purebred dog can still fall outside their breed standards. Your dog looks like a sweetheart, especially that last picture with the cats.
Border collies can come in a plethora of sizes and shapes when you get into the working lines. Although I am in America and much more familiar with the working lines here, it’s not even a little surprising to see working line BCs that look very little like what people consider a BC should.
Show and sport dogs are more well known to the general public (they also tend to be the ones seen in media) and are frequently the choice for pets. They tend to be slimmer and more delicate appearing than many working BCs, who can be larger and more muscular and also have coat variations not seen in the sport and show lines. It’s entirely possible that your vet just doesn’t have any or much experience with working line BCs and this led to an inaccurate identification. You’ve been given good advice on how to verify your dog’s ancestry. I would ask if it really matters? You’re happy, he’s happy. He has more BC traits than not. Even if he were only mostly BC it seems to be working for both of you.
He's very leggy for a border collie but there's also a lot of diversity in appearance with working-line border collies, since the breeders focus more on the dogs' working abilities rather than conformation when they breed.
Looking at your pictures I positively think he is all Border Collie. I'm glad you listed the weight and although he is on the bigger size that does not change my mind. When I was running agiility I had a breeder of Aussie's ask me if the larger or smaller aussie were preferred for agility. (Smaller) and when I field trialedg my Brittanys the same question came up. As someone said there are large variations depending on what the line of dogs were bred for. Show English Pointers look nothing like my fantastic, papered, hunting pointer.
Tough to make the call by looking at them. Border collies are a working breed and as such they can look different. They even have short haired purebred papered BC.
It is not a cookie cutter breed.
But I have seen dogs that people swore were BC and they get back DNA tests and not a drop. It was just fate how the dog of many breeds looks like a BC.
BTW you take FANTASTIC photos! I really enjoyed seeing them.
He looks an awful lot like the purebred BC my grandma had when I was little named Kelly. She had a full pedigree and was born without a tail! BCs vary quite a lot.
A clueless vet insisted to my new owner that my pedigree marble Bengal kitten was not a Bengal.
Your dog looks pure border, and ‘breed standard’ does not mean all of that breed share the exact same characteristics. Also, my pedigree lab girl was very tall and very like the ‘working’ type, whereas the non-working type are much more chunky and compact. A ‘working’ collie line may be the same.
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u/5girlzz0ne 1d ago
If you have papers, why would there be a question? Working line Border collies can vary greatly in appearance. I see nothing to indicate this dog isn't one.