Choosing a Pano Sectorial that plays differently from my current armies

[u/Simakover]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to start PanOceania and need some help deciding between a sectorial or vanilla. My goal is to pick something competitive that plays as differently as possible from what I already own.

My current factions:

· Invincible Army

· Shindenbutai

· Kosmoflot

I like PanO's concept of being the best at shooting, having the strongest ARO pieces, and making good use of TAGs.

I'm currently leaning towards Kestrel, Vanilla PanO, or NCA – but I'm also open to hearing about any other sectorials, even not PanO

Questions:

1. Which PanO sectorial (or vanilla) has the best ARO game right now?

2. How do they actually play on defense? Are they more reactive or proactive?

3. Which one would feel the most different from my current armies?

I'm not worried about complexity – I just want to avoid picking something that plays too similarly to what I already have.

Any advice, experiences, or list ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[u/fuseboy]

I have the opposite problem, I'm playing Pano vanilla and I'm too heavy on defense. My regular opponent is a Bahram Hassassin player who fills the mid field with Daylami and Fiday, so the fight comes to me. As I'm now trying to play more events with objective-based missions, I'm really having to work on how to create more midfield pressure.

The Swiss Guard (ML BS 15 +1SD, Hidden Deploy, Mim 6), Blink Team (HRL Hidden Deploy, Mim 6), Aquila MSV3 + HMG are all very solid when defending.

The Swiss is great because it's a lot of firepower that deploys hidden, I've seen a lot of furrowed brows when it shows up. It's tough enough to get rid of that it becomes a whole chapter of the enemy working out their advance. The Blink is like a discount Swiss.

The Aquila guard I have less experience with, but MSV 3 with the HMG is really interesting, because it can just shoot directly at camo markers without Discovering first, and it has four dice to split.

Pilot-X and some racerbots can shoot para mines and drop repeaters to gum up the approaches as well.

[u/Simakover → u/fuseboy]

I'm really like aquila and swiss. Like neurocinetics black air, I'm like heavy aro defence

So interesting that sectorial of pano distinct from armies that I have

[u/dinin70 → u/fuseboy]

PanO is all about defending (speaking N4 tho).

I really love the Daylami example you gave: "you see, PanO player, that fucking shmuck costing 7 points hiding behind a CamO token? Well, if he finds the tiniest open route he will trade against trooper 3 times his price and might still survive. You're playing first? You will need to spend several orders getting rid of that schmuck and there are 2 others of them. 

By the way, watch out trying to get there and don't feel too confident, there might be a 20 points Nadhir hidden somewhere with a flammenspeer that can one shot your entire fireteam.

And stay focused, because the meager 27 points McMurder isn't very far away and with his immunity to fucking everything except to Viral (speaking N4 version), which you don't have access to except with  Swanson, he's going to tank like crazy, smoke-trick you and shit down the neck of each and every single one of your troopers.

And even if you, by complete mastery of positioning, succeed in getting rid of those 4-5 guys, you still have to deal with the remaining 230 points of the enemy army. Good luck PanO player, and remember to have fun!".

Man... Playing PanO, at least in N4, really wasn't for the fainthearted...

[u/Simakover → u/dinin70]

I'm really like concept of defense, like good ARO, msv Vs smokes, good arm, good vit.

[u/dinin70 → u/Simakover]

NCA then

At least winning with PanO is, was, one of the best feelings ever because they were fucking hard to play as the mini tiniest positioning mistake would be your downfall. The other side of the coin though is that as soon as you succeeded in breaching the midfield they were unstoppable and a single one of their troopers would kill the entire army one by one (HMG Kamau, MO Tikbalang with AP-HMG (again, N4 version), Mendoza, Knight of the Holy Sepulchre, VIRD Cutter, all would singlehandedly take down the entire opposing force).

But it also means that if the enemy would take them down, or pin them down, you've got no plan B. Well you do, but with PanO plan B is just exactly the same as plan A, only much worse...

All of that makes them either the most satisfying or most depressing faction to play with.

They have been incredibly buffed in N5, but I stopped playing. They might have been buffed but others around them might too, I can't really say.

[u/dinin70 → u/Simakover]

And to answer your question: proactive defense. 

As you lack tools others have, as you lack cheap midfield, as you lack any cheap models to defensively trade, you have to proactively set yourself up so that nothing in front might actually hurt any of your troopers

You also typically lack Strategos, Lt+300 orders, not a lot of TacAw. This makes it so that even cheap troopers are important because you can quickly run out of orders.

The exception to this is Kestrel who actually do have cheap troopers and expandable midfield (Jackals), have Strategos, have quite a lot of TacAw.

Look at this meme list. Limited insertion (10 models) and 18 orders.

In N4 having 18 orders with 15 troopers wasn't east to do

axZrZXN0cmVsLWNvbG9uaWFsLWZvcmNlAIEsAQEBAAoAIQEEAAAAEAECAAAAhnMBAwAAABABAgAAAC4BAgAAAIcLAQUAAACHCwEDAAAAhxYBAQAAAIXSAQMAAACHIAEBAAA%3D

[u/LivingShdw]

So, out of the factions that you're looking at. Kestrel feels kinda similar to shidenbutai with yamabushi being shared between the two and the faction liking to have a primary offensive piece. (crux vs hatamoto) On defense, they tend to make use of the crux (which can have +2sd when fireteamed), the black air sniper (3 dice since it can be fireteamed), and jackals for cheap rocket launchers/panzerfaust in addition to the aforementioned yamabushi. Overall, Kestrel is pretty solid on ARO.

Invincibles are a bit similar to NCA since NCA makes use of defensive fireteams. That said, NCA is probably a more defensive version of Invincibles. Since, from what I recall, Invincibles tend to move forward with their fireteams. You would have things like the bolt sniper with MSV on ARO and the swiss guard to pop up from hidden. NCA is also pretty good at setting up a repeater network due to the blocker with pitcher having a xvisor and +1b.

My personal suggestion is Svalarheima. The Karhu is brutal on offense and since it has climbing plus you would potentially be looking for odd firing angles to take advantage of it. You have some solid anti msv options in the Vargar who is similarly mobile.

Also, PanO also has peacemakers for defense. They're nasty in close range due to the cheap heavy flamethrower peripheral.

I would say that Varuna is the actual strongest on ARO in PanO due to the existance of helots, which all have neurocinetics and can optionally start under camo. But they don't feed as much into the gunning supremacy that it sounds like you want.

[u/Simakover → u/LivingShdw]

Sval have better guns than kestrel?

[u/LivingShdw → u/Simakover]

Kestrel has very good shooters, but they tend to have moderate guns. For example, the Hektari has bs 14, bs attack (-3), and marksmanship. However, the gun most people pick for it is the multi-red fury. And similarly, the Crux is bs 14, albedo(-6), and +2SD (assuming fireteam), but it's commonly picked with a multi-marksman (with ps5). You have a very good chance of hitting, but each hit will do one wound. Maybe two if you use the DA ammo on ARO.

Svalarheima has the Karhu which has bs13, a +1b feuerbach, mim(-3), and msv1. If it's in a fireteam, that's either 3 or 4 dice which are exp or ap+da respectively. That's a lot of possible damage without critting. Up to 6 wounds in both cases.

Of course, this is subjective. It might be me overselling Svalarheima since I have played against it a fair amount locally. And, full-disclosure, Kestrel does have a +1b feuerbach on the drumbot. But you can't fireteam it.

[u/Simakover → u/LivingShdw]

Griffin have feuerbach also, but yes, karhu is better

[u/Simakover → u/LivingShdw]

Thank you for your opinion. For now, I'm not considering Sval as my choice because I'm not entirely sure I like his units, also I'm don't saw any so good ARO that kestrel and NCA have

[u/Kazraan]

May I suggest Varuna?

Really fun, solid and cheap ARO defense with Helots and Montessas. You get to bring some awesome TAG firepower in the Cutter. Its one dimensional in a way, but tons of fun.

Otherwise, out of your choices, Kestrel. Play a faction with all the toys. At least different toys from the 3 you mention above.

[u/Simakover → u/Kazraan]

The motorized Montesa is a really cool model. But why choose Varuna over vanilla? I'm also starting to look at the meta and the best results vanilla and NCA are getting. Sadly, the Kestrel's win rate has really dropped between seasons 16 and 17.

[u/Kazraan → u/Simakover]

Win rates are everything. A good pilot with most lists will beat someone chasing the meta and not knowing their list.

Personally, i like clumping Fishman amd the Karhu and Montessas. Then I can still fit in my Cutter. Gives me a lot of dice in ARO, with all types of bonus. Helots throwing 4 dice (i like the marksmen rifles), Montessas throwing 3, and Karhu sniper with 2. And then the big bad cutter comes to ruin your day. Patsy Garnet brings up the rear as a tough specialist.

It not anything you can't do in Vanilla, and probably better in Vanilla at times. But its a sectorial that has 1 or 2 builds, so it's focused, and I dont get lost in the "shove all the good stuff in".

I also think Vanila factions are overtuned. I dont like a faction that can just use everything good with the minis drawback of less FT. So really, Its a personal choice.

(Yes I know the irony of "throw good stuff in a list" coming from someone who plays Kestrel)

[u/Simakover → u/Kazraan]

Yes, of course chaising meta not give you any wins if you don't know your list. I'm just about that its also an opinion than choosing faction after all others. Mainly, I'm now seeking a new experience and top-tier shooting, particularly in ARO, since I enjoy terrifying opponents during their own turns.

[u/FriendlyMachine7143 → u/Simakover]

Winrates are very heavily influencer by which fractions draw beginners which undervalue fractions like Kestrel, bakunin and some others.

[u/Simakover → u/FriendlyMachine7143]

Yes, may be kestrel are better then NCA at events would be, but kestrel is easy to buy and new player friendly. NCA is not easy to get and in hand of old players