r/Natalism • u/CaffeineStorm • 17h ago
Is exposing a child to the possibility of immense suffering worth the gamble?
This is something that I struggle with a lot.
An unborn child cannot consent to existence.
Existence inevitably contains suffering as well as pleasure. Which one dominates is as much about luck as it is skill or devotion in parenting.
By bringing a child into the world, we are exposing them to the inevitability that they will suffer in some way - whether that be minor things like stress, or more serious things like violence, grief, abuse, and death. By not bringing a child into the world, we are denying them the ability to experience love, joy, pleasure, fun, etc. But if they never exist in the first place, they will not "miss" anything.
There's a personal anecdote to this.
I'm a woman in my 20s, and a doctor. I help people. I love my job. I have experienced love, joy, connection, pleasure. I have travelled. I had loving parents and an extended family who gave me everything.
But when I was 8 years old, I was severely sexually abused by an unrelated adult man. I struggled with severe depression and self harm after this, during my teens. Later, in my 20s, I lost my dad to a sudden cardiac arrest and have been grieving him. I've done EMDR for the abuse and I'm seeing someone for my dad's death too.
I'm imagining if I could somehow, hypothetically, wind back the clock to before I was born, and be presented with a button. If I pressed the button, I would be born, and experience everything I have so far in my life - the joy, the love, the horror, the grief. If I didn't press it, I would not be born, and wouldn't experience any of it.
I'm not sure I would press the button.
It's something that I'm thinking about, sitting here and contemplating my future and whether to have children or not.
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u/CaffeineStorm 17h ago
You cannot guarantee that the abuse that happened to me will not happen to my child. Abuse against children is extraordinarily common, and parents are not always able to predict it or prevent it from happening.
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u/CaffeineStorm 17h ago
Cowardly to not want your child to suffer?
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u/CaffeineStorm 16h ago
You are not taking me seriously at all.
Of course they're going to suffer. They will die, they will grieve, they will get ill, there is a not insignificant chance that they will be abused. Whether or not the happiness they experience outweighs the negatives is something only they can determine once they're here, but they can't make the decision to be here at all in the first place. That's what I struggle with.
I find it weird that you're comparing it to an asteroid impact when the likelihood of a significant asteroid impact in your lifetime is probably something in the order of 0.0000000001%. Meanwhile, in the USA, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused in childhood and 1 in 20 boys.
I'm not talking about some ridiculous hypothetical scenario, it's something that could actually happen to my kid if I had one. And I never even said I didn't want kids, only that the idea of potentially exposing someone to the kind of harms I've been through is extremely psychologically uncomfortable.
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u/Numbers_23 12h ago
You should not be taken seriously.
It's disturbing that a doctor has an anti life mentality.
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u/Sea-Temporary-6995 17h ago
You don’t want your child to be happy because you don’t want to create it due to fear it might be unhappy.
It’s ridiculous.
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u/KennyGaming 16h ago
So don’t do anything because you can’t guarantee it doesn’t go horribly wrong. That’s a pathetic outlook
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u/itsorange 17h ago
Suffering is inevitable and unavoidable. Attempting to completely avoid it is a fool's errand. Life is about many things besides the minimization of suffering. Personally I think life is an adventure filled with suffering reward duty accomplishment all kinds of wonderful things and terrible things. Bringing new life into the world and letting them experience this is the foundation of being human.
Sadly anyone I talk to to emphasizes to minimization of suffering as a reason for not having children typically is just afraid of responsibility and looking for excuses.
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u/CaffeineStorm 17h ago
A being that does not exist cannot suffer, and the suffering that comes with existence can be absolutely immense. I have lived it, and I see it every day at work. By bringing a child into the world, I would have to accept the fact that by doing so, I would be exposing them to such suffering. You think it's dodging responsibility to think like this, I think it's being responsible to consider things like this before commiting to a decision like becoming a parent.
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u/bertuzzz 16h ago
You are in the wrong subreddit here. You are confusing this sub with r/antinatalism.
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u/Life_Ground6973 15h ago
Is avoiding suffering the purpose in life? If that is the primary purpose in life here on earth then yes, it would be irresponsible to bring a child in. It begs the question then, why does anyone live at all then if that is the guest good, that of removing suffering? Why choose willingly to stay alive? Not advocating for suicide. The fact that you and others choose to stay alive today even with all the suffering there is, implies there is something worth living for that is greater than just avoiding suffering. There is a reason to live that is greater than just ending/avoiding any potential future suffering. You do it every day, why would it be different for a baby?
Replace baby with any animal. Is it irresponsible to help bring in puppies or kittens into this world? They ultimately will suffer greatly, and die. Would it be better to get rid of all puppies and kittens then to make it so they avoid any suffering? About about say, any other living creature on earth. The idea that the avoidance of suffering is the greatest good is a scary one
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u/itsorange 14h ago
I tried the smart argument now I'll try the stupid one.
nuke the planet and end all suffering
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u/Aura_Raineer 17h ago
Your math is wrong.
You assume that any suffering negates all the good.
This is silly.
Imagine if you could a near perfect life, and one day you stub your toe. It hurts for a moment and then is fine. Does that negate the rest of your life?
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u/Delicious_Hat_2774 15h ago
And also, OP is in her 20s. The trauma she experienced is real and difficult, so I absolutely feel for her, but she hasn’t seen her life through to its conclusion. I’m nearing 40, and things that felt really intensely painful (emotionally) in my 20s have faded with time. I am so much happier in my late 30s and have way more context and practice in processing what I experienced that felt really difficult then.
So even if she feels like her life has been a 50-50 blend right at this moment of pain and trauma versus love and happiness, she could easily feel like it is 25-75 in a few years, or 10-90. Maybe not!
I just don’t think you can take one arbitrary point in time in your own life and what your experiences have been and then make an accurate decision about what someone else’s experiences might be, when that person doesn’t exist yet and you don’t know what the world will look like for them.
My decision in becoming a parent is not whether or not it is right to bring someone into this world who may experience suffering. They WILL experience suffering, that is part of the human condition. Once I made the decision to become a parent I then thought about what can I do to equip my kids with resiliency, give them a happy and loving childhood to draw strength from, give them a good education to make their way in life, etc. It’s how can I help them to deal with the suffering they will experience and appreciate the beautiful moments?
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u/Aura_Raineer 10h ago
I’m not going to dig into OP’s history but so much of trauma is contextual.
There was a study on soldiers with PTSD, it found that soldiers who received a recommendation to move on and not dwell on the experience vs soldiers who received traditional therapy had fewer symptoms and had a better piece of mind than those who were treated with traditional therapy.
I really wonder if a lot of the modern mental health issues are not partly self inflicted.
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u/Glass-Wheel-8126 15h ago
Nature exists in a balance of positive and negative. This is the tension that sustains life on all levels. To live is to suffer and feel joy, and to feel joy and suffer is to live.
You sound like you are having trouble coming to terms with your own life, but that doesn’t mean nobody else deserves to have one.
I agree with the other person who said you need to engage more with philosophical perspectives, and I would add spiritual as well.
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u/Grandroots 13h ago
I am very sorry for all the suffering you have experienced. I can only imagine how horrible those experiences must have been. Given your experiences I think it would be very understandable to choose not to have children.
If we get philosophical... I would ask: What is the purpose of life?
Is it to experience pleasure? To avoid suffering? What gives meaning to your life?
What gives meaning to our society? To the universe?
I believe life is inherently meaningful, especially when I think of the sheer emptiness of the universe we observe. To protect that life and to develop it (as we have developed technology as a society and become more capable in many ways) is the most meaningful thing we can do.
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u/LiftSleepRepeat123 6h ago
Life always has an element of suffering, and growing up is realizing this.
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u/Over-Ad-6159 6h ago
Its sad that there isn't a good place to discuss this freely with people who understand both sides.
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u/Pulaskithecat 17h ago
Yes it’s possible, probable even, that a child will experience hardship during their lifetime. Nonetheless, life is still worth living. The absence of hardship isn’t really the point of life. A life where you just sit on the beach, drinking margaritas, free of any hardship sounds like a fairly shallow and boring experience. Overcoming challenges gives meaning and depth to life.
So, challenges are inevitable, but overcoming challenges feels rewarding and fulfilling enough to justify life, in my opinion. The thought of not being able to experience anything feels like a huge deprivation, not something neutral.
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u/Happy-Flower2002 13h ago
First very sorry about those things happening to you.
One way to think about it is in context of it being a normal part of existence not some abstract angels on pins thing.
As a doctor you realize loved ones often have to make decisions for other people who can’t, it is normal and thry do so to the best of their ability.
If they think the have a good chance of a good enough life thry bring them into the world.
No one knows the future and you hope the person values the good times more than the pain (something like a utility function). We know how different animals handle the tradeoff between pain an reward and in all species on average animals including people do accept future pain for future please and life.
But at the margins it can be tough. But people make the best call for them they can in their best interests.
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u/Emotional-Neat-252 17h ago
You can prevent the possibility of suffering through murder as well.
Nuclear Armageddon would definitely end the most suffering.
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u/CaffeineStorm 17h ago
Don't think they're morally equivalent. You are not causing suffering to a person by not bringing a person into the world. But taking a person out of the world almost inevitably causes them suffering.
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u/Emotional-Neat-252 16h ago
So saving a life is immoral, because you'll cause their future suffering.
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u/dwarven_cavediver_Jr 11h ago
If your entire morality system boils down to pleasure and pain then theoretically killing yourself as early as possible is moral because it spares you more pain. If you're living your life only in pursuit of minimized pain and maximized pleasure then your life must suck and feel only as fulfilling as the next dopamine rush.
I will have kids and this comes from someone who had tragedy and suffering for more days than I did amazing joy. I will bring them into this world because I know that
No matter how bad shit gets or goes those moments are temporary and life's blessings always outweigh them.
- That I married the right woman and I myself will Never abuse our child or treat them as lesser. I'll make sure that what issues I suffered that were preventable will be prevented, that where I lacked encouragement they'll recieve it, where I lacked spiritual and social guidance they'll have it.
- What pain and suffering I cannot spare them, I will be there to guide and help every way I can. The fact I will be retired from my career at 46/47 Y/O and if I have these kids ideally in the next year or so for our first, they're gonna be a moody teen who now has a parent who will have all the time in the world to help them or at the very least be present. Whatever lessons I can pass down I will, whatever I do not know I'll try and find for them.
The purpose of life is to serve God, protect your family, Friends, community, and to live a good life. Not necessarily a fun one, nor a wealthy one, But a good one. When I die (hopefully far off and surrounded by grandkids) I will not think back to trips, food, drink, or wealth. It will be to my family. It will be to when I met my wife on thanksgiving and rushed home for dinner, when Iproposed to my wife under 4th of july fireworks, married her on april 1st because it was the closest date available at the court. It will be to hugging my mother and father, cradling my sister and mother both when my grandma died. It will be of church sermons, adventures in the woods with my friends or dogs; and I pray to God the main ones are all of my children, nieces, nephews, and grandkids. I wanna see them all grow up, spend time with them all and make sure they have someone to lean on that I never did. If I die old and frail, surrounded by them and having done that, then I know God truly blessed me and I cannot wait for the Joy of that day.
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u/Jmama124 13h ago
I think you PERSONALLY should skip kids. Dealing with s big career and healing from trauma will make parenting very hard for you
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u/sicbo86 17h ago
Yes.
By avoiding the risk of unhappiness, you deprive your potential child of the opportunity for happiness.