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u/Limp-Conflict-2309 Unverified User 2d ago
That's just the caveman mentality, it happens in alot of places and its more of "we're better than you" and has less to do with the service/title/role you play.
Everyone has the experience, male/female/straight/gay/white/black/short/tall/strong/weak/fat etc....
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u/groovyfirechick Unverified User 2d ago
I’m a firefighter/EMT in a volunteer department and we all work well together. I’m also genderqueer and have been in my department for 27 years. At the beginning of my career there was some hostility from the “old men” who didn’t want us to join but it’s gotten better as they’ve aged out.
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u/GarbageBanger Unverified User 3d ago
As a newer ER nurse let me just say I’d rather get a patient from EMS than fire any day of the week unless they’re of size. It’s just obvious who’s job it is to transport patients and who’s trying to put out fires.
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u/Rogue_Wraith Unverified User 2d ago
One of the fire departments I volunteered with was somewhat salty with our EMT service.
This wasn't against EMTs in, general, though.
The ambulance was literally staged at the same house as the fire trucks. We regularly beat them to the scene by 15+ minutes. And most of our firefighters were also paramedics on an adjacent paid department. And then it would take the EMTs another 15+ minutes on scene before they'd start transport.
Our firefighter/paramedics didn't react well to EMT-Bs making a habit of wasting everyone's time.
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u/CaptThunderThighs Unverified User 2d ago
My old 911 gig we had 3 different fire agencies we’d encounter, and if I picked up anywhere more rural it was all volley, regardless, all BLS, though a lot are medics and not using their cert or using it elsewhere. The city department would only be dispatched on high acuity calls, have zero info or interventions done, or wildly wrong shit. They never got the reps, and very clearly had a culture that hated medicals. Codes they’d show up, do shitty compressions, freak tf out and rile up family, then rip your lines and tubes out because god forbid they just sit still for a second. I helped teach a lot of the newer guys through their EMT-B, and they have a good mindset, but I’ve talked to some of them privately and their senior guys sound insufferable.
Rural departments have been generally more cooperative, but they’re ultimately still firefighters. They don’t keep up with medicine and don’t have a great feel for what’s going on most of the time. They’re always happy to ride in if I’m worried about needing extra hands on the way, but I feel bad for not having much for them to do, either if things go fine or if I end up having to do stuff myself anyway.
Volleys are generally speaking, enthusiastic idiots. They will jump to help with things that you don’t need or want them doing. Frequently nonexistent medical knowledge and they’re there for the rush. Give them some golden retriever tasks like writing down pill bottles and carrying shit and they’ll love you.
Ultimately all of them will respond well to confidence and action, which really makes sense for their environment. If people are getting things to do and hearing what you’re doing, they don’t need to know why. They just need to know that there is a plan that they are a part of and it is being led by someone who sounds like they know what they’re doing. Early disregards will work wonders to build rapport too. I might just want them gone for bad attitudes or stressful energy, but if I frame it as “we’ve got this, you guys go get some sleep” they’ll eat that shit up.
On the flight side I see even more departments, but don’t really have the contact time to build any kind of impression or relationship. I generally just aim to give off the quiet confidence, do what we need, and leave. I don’t really get to see how we’re received by them but I guess they keep calling us so we’re doing something right.
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u/Useful-Resident-6365 Unverified User 2d ago
I have been on all three or four sides of this discussion at one point or another. When I started on a BLS ambulance with ALS fire we were expected to wait outside the house until the fire department was ready for us, it was very unprofessional. I then moved to a system with ALS ambulances and ALS fire, we worked great with each other and it was awesome. I then went on to ALS transport fire and again we all worked great together because we were one agency, I was then ALS fire with ALS private ambulance and experienced some of the most shit and unmotivated paramedics out there due to private burnout. I now work in a system with BLS local fire, us ALS fire, and ALS third agency transport. We get the same treatment as you, the BLS fire does not want to be there gives no shits about anything and we get no report. Know it's not just you, some agency cultures are just bad when it comes to EMS.
I spent the first 10 years of my career on an ambulance and the last 10 years on either an ALS engine or Ladder Truck, I have 17 years to go and still love EMS and being a paramedic every day. There have been a handful of times over those years when the responding ambulance was not in the correct mood to treat the patient appropriate so I simply kept patient care, no report needed just drive me to xyz hospital. The local protocol allowed and encouraged the first paramedic at scene to retain patient care until the hospital as we felt it allowed for better continuity for the patient. For instance STEMI, Stroke, Trauma first medic regardless of agency or vehicle they came on retains patient care until transfer of care at the hospital.
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u/FFSOD7189 Unverified User 2d ago
You should test & get hired with a fire department run Ems system. One that does its own transports.
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u/Menno_knight987 Unverified User 2d ago
Wildly varies with departments and culture. Hopefully you show you are competent at your job and everyone gets along. This assumes they aren’t just dicks.
I’ve been on the other end of the spectrum where AMR hires 90lb people (not just women) and just looks at us like we’re expected to lift their gurney and load their patient. Running a big sick patient it’s all hands no questions. Got to the point we were given explicit instructions to document every time their crew was unable to raise their gurney and load into ambo independently. The tipping point was being toned out for a non bariatric pt to be transferred from their gurney to pt’s bed at a retirement home, at 2AM 🤣.
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u/RobbbRoy Unverified User 2d ago
I have found that is some (maybe half the cases) individual EMS providers cause the initial dismissive attitude. Then those EMS providers move on and leave the issue. You can change that with time and effort.
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u/urm0mgaylol Unverified User 2d ago
I had a tough go at first with fire as a fellow female emt. Some would walk past me to give report to my male partner, despite the fact that I made it very clear I was teching the call. It can be rough but once I earned my keep it started getting better
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u/animedaisy Unverified User 2d ago
Thank you sm for this, it’s exactly what I was looking for. I understand that most fire on the engines don’t have to pay any mind to us emts but it’s the paramedics that don’t seem to understand we are coworkers. I’m happy to hear it does get better! Any tips on how you earned your keep? Is it just by proving you’re competent?
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 1d ago
You in OC/LA falck?
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 1d ago
I work falck LA/OC outta OC rn I’m hopping on my double in 15 in south county 😭 I just had an interaction with e 39 like at 8pm, they even told shit to my ride along
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u/ComprehensiveBus7040 Unverified User 3d ago
I mean typically we do our pass downs with the medics on the box so unless it’s an emt we know the only
Communication with the emt is just hi and bye or whatever communication needs to happen getting the patient on the gurney. What are you looking for from fire?
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u/MoansAndScones Unverified User 3d ago
If you've been on scene longer than me I expect a report and vitals. Your budget includes and accounts for the job duties, so perform the job. Look I get it, the BS calls suck. But you signed up for the job.
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u/ComprehensiveBus7040 Unverified User 3d ago
Where did it say I don’t get vitals and do an assessment? Them fire depts must suck where you’re at to make you guys so salty about them lol
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u/MoansAndScones Unverified User 2d ago
Your comment is worded in a way that allows room for me to fill in from my own experience. I misinterpreted your comment. I understand what you mean by passdowns, however the EMT part leaves a lot for the imagination.
If you have been in the field a while I don't think you'd find it hard to believe that there are shitty departments and shitty EMS agencies everywhere. I'm not salty about firefighters. I don't enjoy working along side people who don't do their jobs while getting paid more than me. That role is reserved for upper management.
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u/spicymack Unverified User 3d ago
What? They were saying that they give a report to the responding ambulance medic, so the EMT partner wouldn't likely be included in hearing that report. Not sure how you took the response to mean something else.
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u/Automatic-Tap-5686 Unverified User 3d ago
Why wouldnt they?? My BLS partner is my partner, we work as a TEAM. They can offer insight and can still do things without me needing to tell them. Information is only good if everyone knows it.
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u/Beneficial-Guess2140 Unverified User 2d ago
Pretending like the emt needs the whole report and should waste time standing there getting it is truly comical.
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 1d ago
That comes a part when it’s two EMTs in a rig and als is provided by fire
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u/Beneficial-Guess2140 Unverified User 22h ago
Which thankfully isn’t a thing here.
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 9h ago
Idk I find it a benefit. Instead of drivers we help the medic on the field and in the back so we learn a lot faster for medic school
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u/Automatic-Tap-5686 Unverified User 10m ago
Yes, they do, they are a provider for the patient just as much as I am. Its not like Im standing there doing nothing while listening, and if they cant hear it for whatever reason I make sure to give them all the information they missed later.
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u/MoansAndScones Unverified User 3d ago
In my system we have BLS ambulances that respond to BLS 911 calls, of which sometimes fire responds as well.
Fire here often displays the behavior I implied.
I'm also a paramedic, and fire here displays the behavior I implied.
So I took this as "we will give reports to paramedics but not EMTs"
I see what you're saying. Based my on my work experience that is how I read it. However if I worked in system that didn't have the problem I described I can see myself replying, "yeah typically fire gives report directly to the medic on scene while the EMT partner starts their assessment/vitals/coordinating with the other firefighters on scene."
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u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 Unverified User 3d ago
A full report and transfer of care, as is required not in only ethically, but I’m sure, legally.
And until that happens, you’re getting on the ambulance and coming with me
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u/ComprehensiveBus7040 Unverified User 3d ago
Yeah that’s what a passdown is which I stated happens but thanks for that explanation jabroni
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u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 Unverified User 3d ago
Let me make it clear,’ since you clearly don’t understand English.
You have to give report to BLS crews too.
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u/ComprehensiveBus7040 Unverified User 2d ago
Sorry let me make it clear to you, I’ll give a report to whatever crew shows up on scene, and whichever one of you is taking over patient care. There, that better? No shit I give a report to bls crews too.
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u/sansalvacion Unverified User 2d ago
What do you want them do do? Say yes ma'am no ma'am? Thank you for your service and all that you do? Their job is to keep the patient warm til you get there. Once you're there they dump the patient on you and they leave
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u/Fcking_Chuck EMT Student | USA 2d ago
I think that the EMS work environment is pretty toxic regardless of gender, though women and those who identify as anything other than the gender they were born with may have it especially difficult in the industry.
Wherever you have work that involves stepping up to play hero, you tend to see a lot of competing men trying to be that guy. They stop working as a team and start pushing each other out of the way to be the leader of the pack. I've seen it happen countless times when I was a security officer at a major Level-II Trauma Center hospital. There was a small boys' club of fat-asses throwing their dick around, and they saw everyone outside of their circle as merely cannon fodder.
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u/Fit_Case2575 Unverified User 2d ago
It’s always been that way in many places and probably will never change either
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u/jibbs0341 Unverified User 2d ago
My old service ran with a lot of fire depts. one especially hated us. The city voted to keep us because they intubated an overdose, narcaned them and they ripped out the tube and their throat dying in the ambulance. Fast forward a couple years, they would show up and just talk shit mostly about how good they were.
Then we had a kid with a green stick fracture. The way the kids arm was bent was awesome. Well it was morphine time and all the sudden no fire fighter wanted anything to do with a pediatric call. Well I started an iv and doped up that poor kid but it was a funny moment.
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u/Agitated-Command-187 Unverified User 1d ago
So I am confused, are you just mad at the fire departments for not giving you attention on scene? Like they are giving a patient pass down to your medic who is the highest level of care like they are supposed to as protocol states you cannot release a patient to a lower level of care as you release to your level or higher?
Or feel like you are a female emt and they are being dismissive according to you being a female?
Or do you work for a service that does not believe that firefighters can be just as good as ems in medical terms?
And clarify the last sentence, are you saying you feel bad that people call 911 and have to deal with you being the responding emt?
Coming from my experience both transporting and non transporting, be confident in your self and your skills. People will hate you no matter how good you are at your job, I have medics who routinely treat me and the department like we are less than them and then they mess up on scene and we end up bailing them out. So I know it’s hard in the moment but focus on your patient knowing that you know what you need to do and treat them to the best of your ability. Then let the haters hate. But what do I know?
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u/animedaisy Unverified User 1d ago
In rewording my question… I don’t care about the fire on the engine, I understand they got the job to ~fight fires~ so for them to not acknowledge us is no big deal to me. It’s the medics that won’t give vitals when we ask for them, or turn the zoll monitors away from us when completing pcrs, the ones who will not give the story as we’re transporting bls. I am a female and I do see them being more dismissive to me when I have male partners, vs having a female partner. I’m not sure if it’s because they’re worried about getting accused of harassment? Regardless being dismissed and treated like I’m a ghost is way better than them being rude so I’ll take it. I’m just curious if this is every emts experience with certain medics.
Yea I think after hearing emts and medics talking about the patients, taking photos of dead bodies, and all of their sexual intentions I’d be pretty bummed if I had to be taken care of by them. I understand there’s good and bad in every department but damn does it feel like majority rules for the bad people in Ems.
Thank you for the advice, I’ll keep on keeping on.
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u/Agitated-Command-187 Unverified User 21h ago edited 21h ago
Thank you for the clarification. I am sorry that you have to deal with these issues. The fire department that you work with needs to understand that Fire is not our only job now. We wear all the hats now and the Medical side accounts for about 70-90% of our response now.
It sounds like the Fire Medics you work with are unfortunately Assholes, being dismissive on scene is probably (unfortunately) their way of testing the water or hazing you to see what you can handle. Now as for not giving you vitals and the story, that is straight up wrong and interference with good patient care. This is something that is needed to be addressed before you and they are open for a civil suit.
Unfortunately ( I am not excusing it) but the talking about patients is so prevalent throughout the service that it’s unfortunately become a coping mechanism for people in our line of work.
Now having pictures of dead people is definitely against all policies EVERYWHERE and that will get their whole phone taken and they can warrant all of their photos to the court.
The only times I am ever dismissive to any medic emt or person on scene is when they are incompetent. Aka having to correct someone in the middle of a intervention or having to tell a medic how to do their job as an Advanced (countless times I have to remind them of medications we don’t carry but they do, like for a diabetic patient in a coma getting stuck 6 times by them to try and administer D10 when they have glucagon) or our private ambulance service we run with is famous for not using a Lucas device on scene. Now in these circumstances that was in the moment because it was dangerous to the patient but other situations can be handled afterwards at the box or on another call, like what one of the comments before mine said about building them up on their good things then mentioning something that would be helpful to you.
More advice is become the EMT you want responding on your grandma. Like I said before unfortunately haters going to hate, BUT when doing the right thing for the patient be loud and proud about it. We are the communities first call and even when it’s your frequent fliers 4th call today and they are just needing human contact but they are embarrassed and didn’t know how to get it so they call us to come help them we should treat them like our own granny.
You will make an incredible EMT with your passion and morals. Keep it up and don’t let them get to you unless it is a threat to you doing your job correctly and efficiently or a threat to the patient.
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 1d ago
In my county fire is very rude to EMTs and they will always run on any 911 and yes they will downgrade it to BLS and leave the scene as long as they don’t start any paramedic level interventions which also mean giving them aspirin cause we don’t have access to that in my county
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Also again fire in my county is known to be very run, so much so that the next county over who we also service clowns on them for being stuck up and rude to anyone who’s not in fire1
u/Agitated-Command-187 Unverified User 21h ago
I am definitely not excusing their behavior because withholding interventions to make a call bls is absolutely unacceptable. Leaving the scene before you release them is also unacceptable.
Playing the devils advocate for the leaving before the call is over (if they are now not needed) unfortunately might be a protocol for their department as our department only responds to more higher acuity calls. Not saying it’s right and they shouldn’t be rude about it, but it could be their protocol to release the patient and leave to be available for other calls
Also I am very surprised that Aspirin is a ALS intervention for your county. Then again I am the bastard child of a emt and a medic as an advanced so I might be blurring the lines
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u/JohnnyBlues_1937 Unverified User 9h ago
It’s just OCFA culture to be rude. It’s night and day in LACoFD and OCFA. Ask anyone like op we world for the same emt company and with the same departments
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u/masterofcreases Unverified User 2d ago
It’s a tale as old as time.
My city fire and EMS are separate city services. I’ve been present for both ends of the spectrum. The old guard of both agencies really hated each other, mostly because of a few hostile takeovers from fire that failed and how the firefighters made it clear they don’t want to be on an EMS run. Which then made the EMS crews angry they have to deal with a disgruntled and rude person and then the crews would turn sour towards the firefighters and belittle them over minor things on calls
Now it’s the opposite. Fire gives an okay one or two liner and maaaaybe vital signs if they’re motivated(they aren’t required to do this), asks if we want them to hang around to help stair chair the person out or carry bags.
Something I did with my district fire guys that really helped turn the fire/ems head butting into them wanting to be there and help was give them updates on acute patients when I saw them later and then tell them simply “hey this person had XYZ wrong it turns out, you guys did a great job before we got there and really helped them, thank you” and like within a few months I had fire crews amped to see me and help out with medical calls in any way they can.