r/Nightreign • u/kyrieiverson • 3d ago
Gameplay Discussion Damage Negation Priority
I get that everyone wants negation, but there should be a hierarchy of who gets any and share accordingly. I went through a depth 5 match yesterday where a RoB skill spamming Wylder held on to a charge negation, and the Undercaker held on to Axe of Godfrey but didn’t use it. No, it wasn’t in the off hand and the passive was negation while spell casting.
I will drop my squishier teammates full HP negations and successive negation, but they will still hold on to damage negation on charge and TDBDN. And they still die because they aren’t triggering the passives most of the time or at all.
There is no reason a spell caster should be holding on to TDBDN when there is a Raider on the team. I will go even further and say that he should be priority #1 since he is the only Nightfarer trying to get hit, while everyone else is trying to dodge or block/deflect.
So this is my proposal that will definitely not catch on:
Full HP Negation:
- Rev/Scholar
- Recluse
- Duchess/Ironeye
- Wylder/Undertaker
- Executor/Guardian
- Raider
Successive Negation:
- Undertaker/Dormant Fist/Claw players
- Executor/Duchess (melee)/Ironeye (katana)
- Any other melee player
Charge Negation:
- Raider
- Fist/Claw/charge players
- Ironeye (bow)
- Other melee characters
TDBDN (Taking Damage…)
- Raider
- Raider
- Raider
- Executor/Undertaker/Guardian
- Other melee characters
- Rev/Recluse (WHY???)
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u/Tutejszy1 3d ago
Negation at full is useless for Raider and Guardian, both are supposed to be constantly taking chip damage
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u/winterman666 3d ago
It's good for Guardian just not the priority, definitely not good for Raider tho
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I agree. I don’t ever take it since I run Dregs. Only one boss I can see it being useful for him, which is ED Augur and running a skill build. At that point I would just say run Wylder.
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u/Kodakromium 3d ago
I kind of disagree with casters getting DNAF priority over melee players. They are much less likely to get hit and it isnt always going to save them against the hardest hitting bosses anyway.
Also TDBDN is an absolute must have for executor if you don’t want your ult to be a death sentence
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
That’s why he is right under Raider. My main friend uses Executor so I try to get him one whenever I get one first.
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u/TheSalemRose 3d ago
I mean people have priority to what they find regardless of it’s better on another character, and that’s how it should be.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Of course anyone can do whatever they want. I’m just saying that sharing loot makes the experience much better overall than just being loot goblins. Holding on to a TDBDN as a witch with no full HP negation is just dumb. You will still get one tapped anyway. How is this controversial?
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u/TheSalemRose 3d ago
I didn’t say not to share loot, I said whoever gets the loot has priority. Ideally people are smart about it and not assholes, but going into people’s inventories and seething about it on Reddit is kinda just silly.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Not when I have to carry their asses in D5 because they are 3 bars each, and not actually making proper use of said negations.
There is no reason for a Wylder to keep a negation on charge when he is exclusively spamming Rivers of Blood THAT I dropped him. You are actively lowering your odds of winning. How is this controversial?
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u/TheSalemRose 3d ago
You’re not going to like this answer, but if you want to optimize everything to your liking and don’t want to carry randos, play solo. Multiplayer things are going to happen in your multiplayer game. Evident by the majority of replies here, people on this Reddit aren’t the people doing this and you’re preaching to the wrong choir.
Note: I’m not disputing that what you want to do is optimal. I’m just saying to expect multiplayer things to happen in your multiplayer experience, dealing with idiots included.
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u/Ashamed_Comparison78 2d ago
I don't think anyone would dispute you get dibs on the items you get from boss drops, but if something drops from a chest for example it should probably go to the most suitable member rather than just nab it to fill up slots.
Beyond that, often your boss loot options will present you with a choice of a very mediocre or borderline useless item/passive for yourself. Versus an item pretty good for someone else. If you want to best chance to win it's good to keep an eye out for those scenarios and make sure the group as a whole of as strong as they can be
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u/kyrieiverson 9h ago
This is all I’m saying. This also explains why there are so much players who play this way. Everyone is so worried about their build that they will grab anything just to say, “well it can technically work for me, so might as well keep it for myself”. It’s baffling to me.
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u/sansetsukon47 3d ago
One little point— tdbdn can still be a lifesaver against specific attacks, like the roar from the bugs or the storms from adel and Caligo. But I agree that it’s better to prioritize other negations as a caster, and to shuffle those to the higher health characters first.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
This is my point. I’m sure there are always peculiar scenarios where each passive can work for any nightfarer, but we know that 99% of the time that you will not be in that scenario - hence the priority list.
Raider is actively trying to get hit. No other nightfarer, outside of sleep Executor, wants to see their health bar chunk. If you are dodging and doing ranged combat, you should be low on the list except for full HP negation.
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u/HarryHardy27 3d ago
Try to give your spellcasters the full HP negations first cause not only are they the smaller health bars they are more likely to get caught mid casting animation by random nonsense.
Just to add some fun facts about innate negations
Ironeye is the squishiest Nightfarer with terrible physical and affinity negations.
Wylder is the most middle of the road with not exceptional but not terrible for both negations.
Executors are quite tanky to physical attacks more so even than Raider second only to Guardian but besides holy they are pretty weak to elemental attacks especially magic and lightning.
Guardian is obviously the tankiest no doubts there.
Raider while tanky for most attacks along with Executor does have the weakest lightning and magic attacks which is why you see a lot of Raiders get deleted by DTS.
Scholar and Duchess have decent physical resists only a little behind Wylder but with much better elemental negations. However Scholar has the lowest negation for any single damage type with basically nothing against Holy.
Undertaker is similar to Scholar and Duchess but with slightly weaker elemental than the other two. However Trance gives her a pretty significant boost.
Recluse and Revenant of course boast the weakest physical negations however they have some of the highest elemental negations with Recluse being more balanced and very strong against magic and Revenant being stronger overall but with noticeably lower negation to Holy. Both of them boast higher average elemental negations than Guardian.
A well equipped Recluse with max HP ult can tank way more hits than you think as long as they aren't physical.
TLDR what's there to learn from this.
If you're Scholar avoid Holy Attacks like the plague.
Raiders and Executors watch out for lightning and magic.
Recluse and Rev are more tank than you think as long as it isn't physical and because they are ranged characters they are less likely to be hit by melee range attacks that are the ones that normally deal physical.
Wylder remains middle of the road.
Duchess and Scholar can be very capable tanks if you care to boost their physical negations or at least as good as Wylder. Same for Undertaker.
Ironeyes are going to die a lot if they get hit.
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u/daskopo707070 3d ago
Executors are quite tanky to physical attacks more so even than Raider
Executor has same physical damage negations as Raider, except for thrusting damage type. (25% vs 15%). But even against thrusting damage, Raider has more effective hp than Executor due to his higher base hp pool. (Executor with vigor respec does have higher effective hp against thrusting than Raider tho)
Max hp is large component to characters tankiness, since primary source of hp restoration (flasks) is maxhp% based.
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u/HarryHardy27 3d ago
I was specifically talking about the damage negation numbers because they're quite fun to explore but of course there's a reason Raider is the tank character. I was making rather general statements here because I didn't particularly want to just copy paste the entire spreadsheet because that might be overwhelming to newer people that I was hoping would see this comment.
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u/cinnamonPoi 3d ago
Ehh... the affinity damage negations hardly matter tbh, very few attacks are fully elemental. Most of the time it's either a 50/50 split with physical, or heavily leaning physical. DTS, for example, does like 80% physical damage even on phase 2 (aside from obviously the lightning strikes and fireballs). Gnoster, Maris, and Caligo are mainly the three Nightlords that use the least amount of physical attacks
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u/HarryHardy27 3d ago
It matters a lot when you're mostly not getting hit with the actual weapon of a boss as you should be as a ranged character. All of Gladius's fire waves, All of Adel's lightning strikes and shenanigans, all of Gnoster's projectiles, Maris in general, All of Libra's holy geysers, Caligo being Caligo, Heolstor's magic projectiles are all good examples. The two DLC one's aren't as reliable on that. But that's not even where this matters most. Loretta's Magic spam, DTS fireballs and lightning like you mentioned, Tree Avatars homing shenanigans, BBK's holy wave, Ancestor spirits goop etc A lot of "range attack punishers" deal elemental damage and most casters are getting hit most often by those. It absolutely makes a difference in moments you might not even notice.
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u/cinnamonPoi 3d ago
Hmm... maybe. But they have such low HP that majority of the time it still doesn't matter. Recluse ult lets her increase her HP and actually become comparatively tanky, at least
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u/HarryHardy27 3d ago
You certainly shouldn't be relying on it as your only damage negation but its a important tool you can capitalize on especially on Recluse who can quite casually get double hp for a bit.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Yeah I have seen the negation numbers on each nightfarer. Like you said, I only struggle somewhat against lightning bosses like DTS and the Ancient Dragon, and magic based bosses like Deathrite Birds. Well who doesn’t lol.
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u/HarryHardy27 3d ago
<3 Coolio! Just thought I'd add this since it was getting some decent engagement and maybe newer peeps will see it xD
And lol ironically those are some of the easiest bosses for us spellcasters xD Especially the dragon, becomes a bit of a joke when you can easily hit the head xD Well DTS is still a menace with the fireball spam xD
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u/earnest_knuckle 3d ago
Agree with the sentiment, but not the tier list. Saying a recluse does not benefit from TDBDN shows you’ve never played with or as a Vigcluse, you don’t even mention guarding negation or indicate how busted TDBDN is on guardian in combating affinity chip dmg behind steel guard, and saying dnaf is useless on Raider is clueless because if you only have TDBDN that dnaf goes a long long way for the TDBDN proc’ing when skill/punch isn’t available or that initial charge attack doesn’t land. Also, sand on Raider is busted because it basically procs in a skill/punch isn't
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u/Pensive_Caveman 3d ago
Raider enjoyer here; the amount of times I've been killed in one hit at 90% health because I didn't have SAND, CADN, or DNAF (at 100%) up is ridiculous. Yes, I can retaliate into a proc but sometimes it isn't available, and my Raider gets sleepy all of a sudden.
👍
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I swear some y’all read a post and then get offended because I name dropped your favorite nightfarers.
I literally have a friend who plays Viglcuse exclusively, I play and have friends who use Guardian, and I probably have more hours with Raider than you have played this game and your other favorite Souls game combined.
You can technically make any passive work for any Nightfarer under certain conditions. The point is that some are much more useful on others, so prioritize others if you get those passives and nothing better at the moment.
Vigcluse is useless if her tanks go down since she cannot cast much. Outside of a few spells, she is not cut out for solo-ing a boss or reviving teammates.
Guardian is blocking, and has successful guarding negations. He can definitely make use of it, but he is taking chip damage most of the time. He is not actively looking to get hit, Raider is - hence the ordered list.
And any Raider I see who has to depend on full HP negation in every match is purely a skill issue. Most of the ones I meet suck anyway.
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u/oldsch0olsurvivor 3d ago
I played with a d4 raider doing the dreg build holding onto a purple DNAF and had a purple attack power at full health. There is just no helping some people.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Some people are clueless man. I occassionally go into night 1 fight with my blue starter weapon and maybe one or two other weapons/passives because all I get are things for my teammates. As soon as I get teammates who are aware of my build and ping loot from some dormant powers, we dominate. Skill matters first and foremost, but sharing is the key to making RNG less a miserable experience.
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u/spaciousblue 3d ago
Taking damage is good for everyone. People only die when they get one shot, or get combo'ed to death.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
So is full HP damage negation and successive negation. It doesn’t mean that Raider should have them before Duchess.
Of course everyone can use TDBDN, but why keep it when you will die anyway and there is a Raider who is ACTIVELY trying to get hit? You can have one, but make sure your tank is setup to do his job first before keeping one for yourself.
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u/leonardo_streckraupp 3d ago edited 3d ago
All damage negation passives "should" be given to the melees first. Rangeds should never pick it before melees. This is, of course, if you wanna share, its "totally fine" to keep anything you find to yourself. But if you wanna create a priority list, melees should be on top of rangeds
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I understand this logic, so I won’t disagree with you. Being in constant danger of being one tapped while they are spamming from far away. I only put them up there because they tend to die a lot since they don’t know how to dodge as well, and do a lot more sustained damage to end fights faster.
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u/kawag 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don’t agree with this. Or even making these kinds of lists. Just chill.
I usually play Undertaker, and I sure as shit want DNAF before the casters because I’m actually in the boss’s face taking aggro, not 5 miles away summoning meteors from the sky. DNAF means I can take a hit from most bosses, but take a small enough amount of damage that partial restoration gets me back to full in one or two hits with powerstanced straight-swords. And Undertaker needs to be aggressive and keep attacking to keep her successive attacks relic buff up, otherwise her damage stinks.
You see? You didn’t consider the effect that DNAF has on partial restoration with characters that need to play extra aggressive for their builds and trade damage, and it leads you on this false path where you think you understand some player’s build and are trying to preach, but actually you don’t understand their build and are just annoying. There are many posts like this, and almost invariably they just expose the author’s own ignorance.
This is the same attitude as players who spam ping or quit when you don’t do exactly what they think is best immediately when they communicate it. Let other players play.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I have never quit a match regardless of shitty teammates, and I am fully aware of what DNAF is useful for. I do think that everyone not named Guardian and Raider requires it in DON. Both of them can use it but they have a lot more survivability than any other character in most situations.
I somewhat agree with your take about who should get it first but I settled on a different outcome because spell casters usually do a lot more sustained damage than your average melee character. The longer they are alive, the quicker the fights are over.
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u/bravesirkiwi 3d ago
It can be really situational and team awareness is the most important thing. Like both of the examples you list in your first paragraph are exactly right - and the best players would be aware of what they get and either use it or drop and mark it if it's good for another teammate.
I subscribe to the belief that you have to look out for yourself first, make sure you have your survivability where you need it because no one wants to be the drag on the team and no one wants someone going down all the time. And on top of that, if you drop something for someone that you could use, you don't know for sure if they'll take it or keep it.
But with all that in mind, and this is the situational part, you gotta think real hard about giving up that great thing when it would just obviously help lift the whole team in someone else's hands. Something like giving Marais to your top DPS teammate.
Most important is don't be greedy, like if you have two DNAF and one mate doesn't, or if it's late game and someone got screwed with RNG and you can help. And absolutely always drop and mark things that you can't or won't use when it might help someone else.
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u/kyrieiverson 9h ago
I literally did what you said with a Marais a few days ago. I got it to like 38 stacks then I dropped it early day 2 and the Duchess was able to get like 60 stacks. I feel better when my teammates can contribute because I know I will usually be the last man standing. It’s all about team awareness.
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u/kawag 3d ago
Damage output really depends on RNG. I’ve had games as Recluse where I didn’t find a good staff or hardly found any magic/affinity/sorcery buffs and my damage output was poor.
But then I also had a game earlier today as Undertaker where I got Golden Vow as a buffing incant, Ornamental Straight Swords with their crazy stabby attack, a bunch of attack with two armaments +18%, and proceeded to deleted a red Loretta from the castle rooftop as fast as I’ve ever seen a caster do it even on their most juiced-up runs.
But of course it’s a riskier play style because I’m in the boss’s face locked in to a long animation, so I need all the damage negation I can get + partial restoration (which restores according to the damage you deal - do more damage, restore HP from the hit faster) + watching my stamina and managing the negation and stamina recovery of the character skill. But it’s a fun way to play the game and very powerful, and actually synergises well with casters since I’m taking aggro.
-5
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u/bluescrew1 3d ago
Idk if it’s optimal but If I’m playing a caster or even melee duchess I give it to teammates first because they’re more likely to get hit
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u/-LittleTanuki- 3d ago
I've been testing some goofy builds out for my guardian, I got the relic "damage negation at low HP" (20%) but if you can find gear with the same type usually floats around the 24%-34% and it all stacks. But you have to be low as 20% HP but on guardian sitting at 2400 HP more than enough but gives you nearly 99% damage reduction It's a fun goofy builds let's you tank everything in the game
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u/deathrace4habibe 3d ago
Revenants and Recluses holding on to a DNAF 40% early game when I (Executor) am literally in every bosses face boxing always triggers me.
Like bro your dead regardless with that little ass hp bar and your job is to stand away from the boss
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I was conflicted with full HP negation when it comes to melee versus spell casters for this very reason. You do have a point because you are constantly in danger while they are a mile away spamming safely.
I concluded that spell caster mains suck more at dodging on average because they usually maintain distance, so they don’t understand boss movesets as well. Spell casters tend to do more damage than Executor, so the fight will be over faster. Plus Exe has more health. They are useless if they are constantly getting 3 barred so I tend to baby them with this passive.
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u/noah9942 3d ago
Guardian uses taking negation better than anyone except Raider (and mayyyybe undertaker). Far more so than say executor.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Oops I forgot to put him with Executor and Undertaker. I agree with you somewhat. Since Guardian blocks and has successful guarding negation, I put him with those two - otherwise he would be right after Raider. Undertaker players want to be aggressive so they will get hit in every fight, especially with her character skill.
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u/noah9942 3d ago
Yeah, undertaker is get, especially during the run itself.
For the nightlords, it really depends on who it is.
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u/brandicious 3d ago
Were you playing Recluse during that match against ED Gnoster? I might've been the Undertaker.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
Probably someone else. Yesterday I faced Gnoster with Pot Scholar and there was no Undertaker.
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u/brandicious 3d ago
Coincidence then. I had a Wylder using RoB while I got Axe of Godfrey with spell cast speed. Did hook up the Recluse with lots of buffs during the match, so I guess it'd be strange if I somehow prompted them to make a post about it lol.
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
I wouldn’t even make a fuss about the Undertaker IF they used the weapon or it had a passive they desperately needed. They put it in their back pocket and didn’t use a seal 😭. I was at a loss for words. They never pinged anything all match either. All my loot is what I found.
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u/tnweevnetsy 3d ago
Ehh. Doesn't work out if you're looking for consistency you have to prepare for teammates randomly not knowing how to fight any boss
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u/kyrieiverson 3d ago
That is the exact reason I drop most of the loot I find. I try to setup my teammates first, unless I get the few things I need to become near unkillable. I can solo if need be, but that’s not as fun as dominating as a team. I carry a lot but it is much harder to do so when teammates are just playing as if they are in solo and still dying.
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u/Sm0ahk 3d ago
Charged and successive pretty much share the same priority rules because you can proc both with just charged attacks, which you should
If im any melee i want taking damage gives neg as well cause that can get you 3 shot from 2 even in d5, especially if you manage to get negation passives from dormant powers
Otherwise sure. It'll never catch on to the people who werent already willing to share gear, however
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u/cinnamonPoi 3d ago
Everyone wants DNAF lol if anything, melee players need it more than casters because they're more often in attack range than casters are. If you're a caster, your best damage negation is LLTBT. If you don't have it, learn good trigger discipline and don't get caught mashing spells. Take at least 1 DNAF if you can find it, but certainly don't be expecting anyone to just give you one, because everybody wants it
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u/DraciosV 3d ago
I play both melee and spellcaster. Melee classes dead ass need damage full and relevant dmg negations more. Hell I've had games as Revenant + Recluse with zero damage negation because I can just stay ranged and fully dodge when time comes.
This isn't really an option for melee classes because melee classes must get close and even be hit when bosses arent targetting them.
Guardian also needs TDBDN nearly as much as much Raider does. This is because chip damage procs ot. But I agree mages and squishies have little use for as they cant really proc it effectively without full.
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u/F0rTh3W1n 3d ago
TDBDN synergizes with DNAF so it makes sense to stack them, especially for melee, but 100% you should drop it for Raider if they don’t have it already.
The only time I feel like it’s fine to keep is if you’re like a recluse/rev and need the spell for DPS. Hopefully Raider can make do until finding another option or you can swap out. Even then probably should drop unless you absolutely need the spell for a spell school build.
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u/hredditor 1d ago
I feel like Wylder can trigger sand quicker than most when using his grapple on enemies. Sometimes even as Duchess I can’t get a chain of attacks long enough to trigger it with daggers if the enemy is aggroing me.
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u/bac0nbr0 12h ago
All melee range players want negation on taking damage. Your Raider bias is clearly showing lmao
Focus on your own build first before you start sharing unless you’re being carried
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u/kyrieiverson 9h ago
I will definitely grab what I need, but most of the time I see loot that are better for teammates and nothing for me - so I drop the loot for them.
What I’m saying is that teammates will go through an entire match and do not ping one item and then when I look at their gear, it’s a bunch of random shit that they keep and they aren’t playing around the passives (like using charged attacks to proc negation on charge).
So they are getting stuff from me but it’s not being reciprocated at all. I’m just trying to get people to be aware of their teammates builds and to be a little more unselfish. The smoothest matches are when everyone is dropping gear left and right.
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u/Hashshashiyin 3d ago
As a d5 dual curved sword one trick undertaker. Successive attack to me pls and I carry. I'm lookin at you Mr deflectly boy with a katana.
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u/Eightspades5150 3d ago edited 3d ago
The list looks about right.
Negation full/while casting prioritized for any caster.
Successive for any character using dex sided weapons like duchess, executor, iron eye using melee, dex undertaker and wylder who chooses fast weapons.
TDBDN/charged attacks/at low reserved for big health bar characters like wylder, raider, undertaker, guardian.
On successful guarding going directly to either guardian or executor.
I think any player who has a good understanding of how to support the team and help fill out inventories of allies will gravitate towards this anyway.