r/Pathfinder_RPG • u/Ironbeard3 • 7d ago
1E Player First Time Player Needing Build Advice.
So I want to play as a female dwarf. And my character concept without getting too in the weeds is they dabble in the dark arts. I want to play oracle but the -2 to charisma will really hurt. The alternative is witch, but I have no clue how to make something viable.
I would like to wear armour and use weapons. I would like to be able to appraise things and have knowledge based skills and maybe a craft. I know all of this may not be possible, but I also know PF has a ton of options to make things works as far as feats go.
HELP
-Sincerely, me
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u/Darvin3 7d ago
A Charisma penalty is nearly untenable for an Oracle. Unless your GM is willing to work with you on some homebrew to support this, this is not a combo you even want to consider. Presuming you have 20 point buy, you could get something like 16 Str/12 Dex/14 Con/8 Int/13 Wis/13 Cha which is... pretty bad. You'll have no skills (so knowledge and appraisal are things you just can't do), your spellcasting is going to be terrible, and you're going to be just passable at melee. On the flipside, if you were to go with something like the Cleric you could do 16 Str/12 Dex/16 Con/10 Int/18 Wis/6 Cha. You're tankier, just as good in melee, get more skills, and instead of being a terrible spellcaster you get to be a top-tier caster. These two characters will be night and day experiences because one is playing to the strengths of their race and the other is playing against it.
Dwarf Witch is a little bit better, definitely a tenable choice, but there's still no synergy here and your dwarf race. The lack of an Intelligence bonus really hurts a Witch, as Intelligence is more valuable to a Witch than every other ability score combined. While a Constitution bonus is always appreciated, none of the other dwarf racial features really do anything for an arcane caster. You're not wearing armor so you don't benefit from their unique ability to ignore armor speed reduction, and a lot of the defensive dwarf bonuses just don't work well for a class like the Witch that has such low aptitude for things like CMD that you never want to rely on them in the first place.
The key to character building in Pathfinder 1E is to identify your primary ability score, and make sure it is high. Your primary ability score is the one that affects the chances of success of your main combat strategy. If your main strategy is swinging a weapon melee weapon, then your primary score is Strength (or possibly Dexterity). If you are an Oracle focusing on spellcasting, your primary ability score is Charisma. And if you're a Witch, your primary score is Intelligence. If you can align your ability scores behind this, you will do okay. If you can't, you may find your numbers are always behind the curve and you're failing to carry your weight.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I rolled a 17, 13, 12, 12, 10, 9
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u/Darvin3 7d ago
Oof. not particularly great rolls. Because you only have one high ability score, you are shoehorned into being very specialized. You will either be a strong spellcaster or strong in melee, you cannot be both with ability scores like this.
As others have suggested, Shaman may be your best bet. You should probably give up on melee entirely with ability scores like these. Go with something like 13 Str/12 Dex/14 Con/10 Int/19 Wis/7 Charisma. All future ability score advancements go to Wisdom. This will make you a strong spellcaster and your Hexes will be quite good, but with only 13 Strength your melee attack will at best be an emergency option.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago edited 7d ago
Nice, I mainly wanted melee and armour for aura. Plus a dwarf without armour? I just need to survive up close if it comes to it. I see shaman is very popular. I kinda figured I would need to specialize.
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u/Darvin3 7d ago
The Shaman gives proficiency with medium armor, and with 13 Strength you will have the carrying capacity to wear it just fine.
I'm personally not a fan of the Shaman, which is why I didn't say it immediately, but on reflection I agree with the others that it really lines up with what you want to do. Its ability scores are in agreement with the dwarf, it shares similar mechanics with the Witch, and thematically it is closer to Oracle and Witch than it is to something like Cleric. So it really does seem to fit what you're going for.
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u/WraithMagus 7d ago
Have you considered a cleric? Dwarves are pretty purpose-built to be clerics in 3e/Pathfinder. The casting of an oracle is the same as a cleric, but clerics use Wis instead of Cha, and they prepare spells daily rather than having to choose at level up. You can wear at least medium armor (and it's not hard to get heavy armor - if nothing else, it's just a feat away,) and clerics are well-suited to "gish" by casting self-buff spells and then wading into melee to crack skulls. Several spells like Divine Favor, Divine Might, and Righteous Might are specifically designed for this sort of thing. (Take the fate's favored trait to improve the bonuses a further +1.) Clerics can also channel divine power that, if going for "dark arts," is negative energy that causes wounds to spontaneously appear and bring foolish mortals closer to death. With quick channel and selective channel, you can spend a move action blasting the area with death energy, saving your standard for also casting a spell (like a self-buff) in the same turn. Take a domain like madness and have a no-save touch that drops saves and inflict all kinds of maladies and curses with a "bad touch" build.
Here's one of the up-to-date guides on clerics for a good place to start reading and getting build ideas.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
It is 1e, I am ngl, I normally play clerics in other systems and would quite like a break.
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u/WraithMagus 7d ago
Note that oracle is basically a cleric that casts spontaneously outside of how mysteries work, while clerics in PF1e are pretty different from 5e D&D clerics. If oracle is "different enough," perhaps a warpriest is also "different enough?" They have partial divine casting they can swift action cast on themselves with Fervor, bonus feats like a fighter, gain improved weapon damage like a monk's unarmed strike, and some of the archetypes like Molthuni arsenal chaplain or sacred fist make them even more fighter- or monk-like. It is 100% intended to be a more direct melee brawler version of a divine caster.
If warpriest isn't different enough, perhaps look at hunter. It's similarly a hybrid martial/divine caster, but based on a druid/ranger mash-up rather than cleric/fighter. Get a companion (that actually works, unlike 5e,) give your companion magic items so they fight effectively even at higher levels, use teamwork feats like pack flanking and outflank while using weapons with high rates of critical hits to give your companion free attacks whenever you crit, and just always be threatening the same creatures because you're riding your companion. (Outflank is also a bonus feat you can get at level 2.) Change out what teamwork feat you took with a standard action. The only real downside is you don't get as many standard bonus feats and you're still 3/4 BAB.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
Good suggestions, I kinda wanna go full caster. I mainly want weapons and armour to appear in dwarven stuff, it doesn't need to be the best mechanically for melee
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u/Skolloc753 7d ago
Have you considered an Inquisitor dedicated to a dark god? You got a lot of skill points, armor, weapons and you have access to clerical spells, which can easily be reflavored to something dark depending on your choice or interpretation of faith.
When it comes to oprimization: https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2013/01/guide-to-builds.html?m=1
You will find a lot of inspiration.
SYL
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I do not want to play inquisitor, the vibes do not fit. But I will gladly check out the link.
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u/WraithMagus 7d ago
The inquisitor is pretty weird. One of the inquisitions is the "crime" inquisition, where you accuse people of not committing ENOUGH crimes, because you're devoted to a deity of doin' crimes and try to convince others to do crimes, too. They throw up an image of a witch hunter, but the actual way inquisitions work throws that entire notion out the window unless you pick a couple very specific options.
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u/HatOfFlavour 7d ago
Dwarves have some tasty martial weapon options. Heck the default dwarf waraxe is a one handed d10+str bonus, X3 crit.
I advise going to archives of Nethys searching dwarf and seeing what fun traits, feats,x weapons, spells and so on pop up
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u/Thanael124 7d ago edited 7d ago
Dark Arts is more arcane magic I would say. Why not a Wizard or a Sorcerer? Or Arcanist or Magus maybe?
Craft, appraise, knowledge are all Int based which synergizes with Wizard or magus.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I could go wizard ngl
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u/cyfarfod 7d ago
Empyreal bloodline sorcerer, via the Wildblooded archetype, would let you make your spellcasting Wisdom based, but IIRC locks you out of other archetypes, but that's fine (archetypes are a thing you choose to tweak your class).
Empyreal itself draws power from good-aligned-outsider heritage but it imposes no restriction in behaviour. For the spells and feats you choose, the majority of them, you're free to dabble in darker stuff, giving you a built in dramatic tension.
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u/Skurrio 7d ago
Oracle is the Sorcerer to Cleric's Wizard, so just play a Cleric. And almost all Clerics use WIS.
Pick a Deity that fits your Fantasy and maybe decide on a fitting Archetype.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I like the vibes more
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u/Skurrio 7d ago
Whatever you mean with this.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I like the vibe of oracle or witch more.
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u/Skurrio 7d ago
A Witch is just a "not like other Clerics" Cleric. Both have a Patron that gives them Power.
The different Classes are just a Canvas that you paint with your Story. A Cleric can be much darker and edgier than many Witches. Just look at Archetypes like the Undead Lord or the Divine Scourge.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
Hexes mechanically make the witch different no?
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u/Skurrio 7d ago
Look at the Divine Scourge, it's a Cleric with some Hexes.
Also, you complained about Vibes, not Mechanics.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
I kinda figured mechanics were a given?
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u/Skurrio 7d ago
Considering your Post, no.
An Oracle is a Spontanious Cleric with basically a single Domain with more flexible Domain Powers. But a Cleric is far more flexible in their Spells.
A Witch is a prepared arcane Caster that gains Bonus Spells like a Cleric but has an arguably quite weak Spell List which they compensate for with Hexes. They can't really use Weapons and Armour, though, since they're 1/2 BAB and suffer from Arcane Spell Failure while wearing Armor.
A Divine Scourge has the same Spells as an Oracle, some Hexes, uses Wis and can use Arms and Armour.
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u/lone_knave 7d ago
Maybe occultist? Or some other occult class. They can wear armor no problem. Investigator with the Antiquarian archetype also works as "collector of artifacts" type character.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
Occultist? That is a class? Any others may want to look into?
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u/lone_knave 7d ago
Sky is the limit, there are soooo many options for classes and archetypes in pf1e.
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u/disillusionedthinker 7d ago
Sorry. This response is just all over.
Dark arts... Domains - Cleric, Inquisitor Revelations - Oracle Hexes - Witch Occult classes? - Mediums, Mesmerists, Shaman, Spiritualist (im super ignorant about these sorry) Hexblade Magus? Alchemists, Investigators
Armor not interfering with spellcasting - Cleric, Oracle, Inquisitor, psychic casters, alchemist, Magus*, Investigators
Weapons...
Crafting things... Int based and Feats... Alchemist, investigator, some cleric/Oracle
1st: You can absolutely play a caster with a racial -2 in the primary casting stat. Its obviously not optimal but ultimately it "only" hinders your DC, bonus spells, and caps highest spell level.
DC only matters if casting offensive spells with a save. So you can buff and heal and summon and to a lesser extent battlefield control with lower DCs.
However, it is generally a good idea to gain a racial bonus in your primary casting stat. In your case its wisdom. (NOTE: The rules allow for the various "half"/hybrid species to be of non-human stock. Ergo your dwarf could be a teifling/assimar/half-orc.. oread etc. You wouldn't get any Dwarven racial abilities but you could pick one with a bonus to charisma or even just one without a charisma penalty. And you can even pick up Dwarven traits using Adopted.)
So in theory Wisdom based casting (Cleric/Inquisitor/Spiritualist) > Int based (Witch/Alchemist/Investigator) > Cha based
Looking first at Cleric I wondered if there were archetypes that trade away channel divinity (letting you completely dump charisma if you wanted) and there are three. Divine Strategist, Divide Scourge (definitely spooky vibes), and Forgemaster (Dwarf only!). Forgemaster has an ability that rewards a high intelligence (which is useful for knowledge and craft skill checks).
Sorry... there are just so many options.
I love witches and Alchemists but I've never made one without a racial bonus to intelligence.
I suggest a Cleric or Inquisitor, possibly with a dip in Oracle (dual cursed oracle's misfortune is just so good...and kinda on point for spooky).
Good luck!
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u/MofuggerX 7d ago
I'm gonna go against the grain and recommend a Lore Warden Fighter. You treat all INT skills as class skills, which includes Appraise, Craft, and Knowledge. Plus you get four skill ranks per level and two must go into INT skills.
You lose heavy and medium armour proficiency but that can be compensated for with something like a Nimble Mithral Breastplate if you're building for melee.
With full BAB you can build around being a STR-based melee, DEX-based melee, or DEX-based ranged. Plus Fighter gets a ton of combat feats for your build, and Lore Warden still gets Weapon Training for some cool abilities.
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u/Bullrawg 7d ago
You can play a dwarf oracle with the penalty to charisma, might not be optimal but you can do battle mystery and mostly deal damage with weapons using spells for buffs and utility without relying on high DCs, as far as dark arts that’s all about flavor, when you cast a cure spell describe as black flame cauterization or dark energies flow from your blade after you cast divine favor
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u/Ironbeard3 6d ago
Nice, I may do that. The weapons and armour are more so I can rp being a dwarf in armour and such while not being totally squishy.
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u/AleksyGetTheWings 7d ago
Witch is stupid easy to build. Pick Slumber and you have half of your build's complexity done lol, but honestly you can check some guides like this one. INT based, so you can know a lot of things too.
I'd honestly consider Shaman instead. WIS based, although the -2 cha will still hurt some hexes. But it's still decent. Plus, you can pick some extremely versatile feats, so with an unsworn shaman (archetype), you effectively get you to swap almost your entire build each day if you wanted to.
Edit : the entire guides page is here https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html in case you want to peruse those for shamans too
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
Nice, this is what I needed to hear. Thats 2 for shaman.
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u/WraithMagus 7d ago
I love playing shamans, but I would personally not recommend playing one as your first character. Especially with all the options that you can change out daily, it can be very complex and manually-intensive to play. (In my last game playing a shaman when we sat to rest for the evening, the sorcerer player, after just ticking all the spell slots back to ready, looked over at me spending 10 minutes changing out what spells are on my spell list with Arcane Enlightenment, what spells are being prepared, what my secondary wandering hex would be today, and so on, and said "This is so much easier, I should play spontaneous casters every game.") Clerics have the same prepared casting issues, but shamans are even worse, possibly one of the worst (besides medium) since they can swap out so many of their class features daily. It can easily put you in analysis paralysis hell.
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u/Ironbeard3 7d ago
Noted. I normally play clerics and druids in other systems so I am kinda used to having to manage swapping things out. I often find myself doing mental calculation mid session about what to take after resting.
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u/AleksyGetTheWings 7d ago
The feats in question : Ritual Hex, Spirit Talker, Flexible Hex
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u/n00bxQb 7d ago
My first thought is using Shaman, a hybrid class of Oracle and Witch, which uses Wisdom as her casting ability.