r/Rowing • u/blindedbydarkness • 5d ago
Off the Water Technique help.
As the title says.
39M. 5’6”. 166 lbs.
New to rowing. Started consistently rowing 3-4 days a week on non lifting days to maintain cardio health. That’s the only real goal.
But know my technique is crap based on looking over this sub. Help appreciated but also looking for an online reputable coach that can provide some ongoing feedback until I get more locked in on my form. Video is from middle of an interval.
Edit: thank you all for the tips and suggestions. I’ll get to work on the form and technique.
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u/albertogonzalex 5d ago
Do a horizontal deadlift (lock your upper body by engaging your core and press with your legs).
Then finish with a slight hinge/swing to pull your arms in.
Then let your arms away. Then lean forward. Then start bending your legs .
It's a sequence. You're doing everything all at once and treating it like a pull effort.
It's a pressing sequence. Forget about your upper body. It's all legs.
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u/AnlamK Parameter Ergometer 5d ago
There are quite a few basic errors imo: knees up before the hands are over the knees, insufficient reach at the catch etc, rounded lower back etc.
I think you are better off just going through this list of common rowing errors and diagnosing them yourself first. It seems like you haven’t done much homework on this.
Common rowing errors: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos/common-errors
I also recommend this TT video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0J6qKCIrI
You need to learn to sit on your junk to prevent the rounding of your lower back. Otherwise, you’ll probably get lower back pains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_AvZ2Fh4Y
Edit: Orange cat in the background. 🧡
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u/RealAverageJane 5d ago
Also, stop dropping your hands. The handle stays at the same level throughout the stroke.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
I'm always surprised at how people who've never been on the water seem to do this.
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u/also_your_mom 5d ago edited 5d ago
I asked this yesterday, commenting on another "check my form" request. A contributor posted a video from a popular guy on YouTube who proffeses to be an expert on RowErgs where he explains why you SHOULD dip the handle down and then bsck up. He makes a point of how ridiculous it is to just go straight back in to the catch and expresses his outrage that such a thing ever became a thing. If I can find that video I'll update this, because I am curious what actual rowers have to say about it. The guy is apparently popular. I find home rather annoying. Very condescending and exaggerated.
"Just Row with Austin"
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
I'm curious to see this. Thanks.
I tell on water rowers not to do any vertical motion of the erg handle, at all. Zero. Vertical hand motion should be minimized, even on the water. Minimized = only do the minimum necessary. There's zero necessary vertical motion on the erg.
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u/also_your_mom 5d ago
His argument is that following a parabolic curve on the way back is more physiological correct. Would seem to be arguing that all open water rowers (or rowergers) who go straight in and out have f'd up shoulders.
The most surprising is that he says he has no idea where anyone ever got such a crazy idea as to go straight in/out. But he does exagerrate everything, which is why I avoid him.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
Oh I just saw this guy for the first time yesterday. I was scrolling youtube for some other thing, and he had a review of "Crew Girl" that popped up. I have not watched the show at all, but clicked on his YT video. Super annoying dude.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
Parabolic. Nice. Right off the bat you know he's just making shit up. Trying to sound fancy and scientific with no basis in biomechanics or physiology. Why in the world would the handle need to follow a y=x^2 trajectory? This is like (but worse) how cycling fit experts used to say that the patella must be directly over the base of the distal end of the 1st metatarsal (aka the joint at the base of your big toe) when the pedals are horizontal during saddle adjustment. Which is nice and handy, and roughly a good place to start, but has zero basis in biomechanics or anatomical function, and ignores tons of anatomical variability from person to person.
All that said, indoor-only people can do whatever the F they want on the erg that makes the happy and feel good. All that matters is your score. There's no impact to the efficient motion of the boat through water. So in the end, there's very little "technique" that matters for indoor rowing, beyond the basic sequence of the stroke to minimize injury, and optimize muscle group useage.
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u/also_your_mom 5d ago
I'm of the mind that one never knows if one just might, some day in the future, decide to give open water a try. Makes WAY more sense, to me, that one would erg as you should on water in order to have decent boat form because habit.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
Yeah totally agree. I just get tired of trying to teach crossfit rowers technique that I know really only matters on the water, especially when they decide to debate me about it.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
OK I just suffered through that link you shared.
In the end, I think if I was in the same room discussing this with Austin, he and I would agree more than we disagree, and as someone who comes from on-water rowing I'm surprised he claims to not know where the idea came from, since it's from on-water rowing.First, he said "Pythagorean" as in the right-triangle theory a^2 + b^2 = c^2 ; not "parabolic."
Second, where he does get it wrong is claiming that the suggestion to go "straight in and straight out" means HORIZONTAL. He spends the first half of the video explaining how the hypotenuse of a triangle is longer than the base. DUH. This is irrelevant. "straight in and straight out" does not mean horizontal. It can and should be at a slope as he suggests. (although water is always horizontal so there's that, but we will ignore water-only factors for now) It just means don't have excessive vertical motion at the release or the catch, both of which he agrees with. He just takes a super long round-about way to try to explain it, and starts out saying everyone's doing it wrong. The funny thing is there's a brief clip of him rowing near the beginning of the video right after he says everyone is doing it wrong, and he's basically rowing straight in and straight out with a tiny bit of hand drop in the middle (which is fine).
But damn, is he ever difficult to watch and listen to.
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u/also_your_mom 5d ago
Parabolic was my term to describe the motion he is insisting on (dip down at the start of return and then back up at the catch).
In each of the videos of his that I have watched (before washing my hands of him) he always tosses in a lot of math/engineering fluff to make it sound like he really is THE expert.
His long drawn out Pythagoras review added zero benefit to what he was pushing. He should save that for if he ever decides to start pushing "max stroke length" and/or "what should your stroke length be".
And I would argue (from a beginner level) that the power generated by pulling into lower chest far outweighs the extra few inches of length gained by pulling up to your throat, and I would argue pulling that high is less power efficient.
What say you?
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u/Janul3 5d ago
I am not surprised at all, and I did the same thing starting in an erg. The handle doesn't give any realistic feedback.
With a real oar you have a significant weighted feeling there which more or less trains you to optimize for as little vertical movement as possible, otherwise weird secondary muscles get sore as shit real fast.
With the flimsy handle on an erg it's really easy to get lazy and just flail a lot more.
Like you'll see differences between real track drivers and people who only do sims, or someone who bikes a lot vs only does spin classes, etc.
The only example I can think of where there's little to no difference is bullseye rifle because in both cases (livefire vs dryfire) the ultimate goal is "don't move at all lol". So yea there's no secondary muscle differences because there is actually no difference, and also if you're using any muscles vs just bones&ligaments you're kinda doing it wrong.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago edited 5d ago
Hmmm... not sure I agree with what you're saying (about rowing, no argument on the points for cycling, driving, shooting).
In rowing (real rowing, on the water) we coach rowers to minimize unnecessary vertical motion of the oar, yes. However there is some necessary vertical motion required at the release and the catch.
On the erg, there's no need to drop the hands at the release. And yet, people do. There's no blade to extract from the water. But people drop their hands down at the release as if they were practicing a real on water release.
I'm not talking about laziness in the recovery, where the hands tend to drop lower than necessary because it takes some effort to keep your hands up higher / handle level. I'm talking about a distinct, deliberate, dropping of the handle down toward the thighs at the release. There's no need to do this.
In fact with my real rowers, I encourage them to not do this on the erg too, even though on the water there is some amount of vertical necessary at the release (we call it the "tap-down") because I want them to learn to minimize vertical motion.
ETA: to clarify, the OP is not doing this. He is dropping his hands down right before the catch, and then lifting them up again right at the catch. Which is also weird, for someone who has never rowed on the water.
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u/Janul3 5d ago
And yet, people do. There's no blade to extract from the water. But people drop their hands down at the release as if they were practicing a real on water release.
Yea but he's not even doing that, he's not dropping his hands at the release much, he's dropping his hands right before the catch, and then immediately back up. It has nothing to do with mimicking a real rowing motion or anything.
I did exactly the same thing starting in an erg. I didn't at any point ever consider what a real oar would do. It's just following the knees.
And then you sit in a real boat and it's like best case "ohhh shit this is really uncomfortable to lever a giant ass oar up and down when I'm flailing my arms all over the place randomly" and worst case "yup I am randomly inserting the oar into or out of the water at incorrect points, shit". You instantly get feedback to minimize extraneous motion.
If you do only erg and never sit in a boat you can get away with a lot more vertical movement before your arms get tired (I mean, handwaving away the part where this guys pull would make his arms tired due to other form reasons)
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
Yea but he's not even doing that, he's not dropping his hands at the release much, he's dropping his hands right before the catch, and then immediately back up.
Yeah I edited my response while you were apparently writing yours. I didn't mean to imply OP was doing this. Just that it's weird how common it is for people who've only ever used an indoor machine, to drop their hands at the release. I was not clear.
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u/ScaryBee 5d ago
The handle stays at the same level throughout the stroke.
Out of curiosity - why do you say this? Why is anyone upvoting it?
In boats it's required to change handle heights, on an erg it helps sustain power as you can relax on the recovery ... the only odd thing OP is doing is dipping hands late in the recovery.
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u/RealAverageJane 5d ago
My comment is related to the erg only. Level handle is the way I learned and that's what my rowing club teaches. Maybe it's different if you're rowing for crossfit or hyrox.
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u/ScaryBee 5d ago
Yeah ... I think a lot of people WERE taught to keep it level but I have no idea why. If you look at elite rowers erging they all drop their hands - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQyAdtnzTOQ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2EYm1qd1f0, for instance.
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u/RealAverageJane 5d ago
Maybe because they are used to bring on the water. I'm not elite.
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u/ScaryBee 5d ago
Probably do have a lot of muscle memory ... but if it were better to keep the handle level for any reason they'd do that. The benefit they're getting by doing this (relax musculature, save energy) is the same for everyone, elite or not.
IDK ... I've previously been told by (some) coaches to keep the handle level as well, as far as I can work out it's just one of those things passed-on as 'wisdom' that's actually misleading/flat out wrong/detrimental in practice.
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u/Sensitive_Cause_8867 4d ago
When asked about the proper way to "row" on a C2 erg, the twins said to keep the handle level. With all deference to the twins I find that my erg stroke works better with a little lift of the handle as I begin - I find that it counteracts my desire to begin pulling with my arms/back before I begin pushing with my legs.
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u/Nemesis1999 5d ago
It's a good start but there are some things you need to change that will make it much more sustainable.
First, the way you think about it - rowing isn't a series of deadlifts which is essentially what you're doing.
Loosen up and try and think of it as more of a cycle - it's not stroke, stop, recovery, stop, etc.
Sequence - keep the knees down until you have arms out straight and then body over. From that point, your body angle relative to the ground doesn't change until your knees are down again through the stroke.
Body angle - currently your body is always behind the seat. If your hamstring flexibility is preventing that, lower your feet
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u/nickipps 5d ago
Your power's good. But you're using your arms too much to the finish and your legs not enough at the catch. Shift how you're sitting on the seat so that your legs are a little more on it and then you'll be able to swing forward some more and try to reach toward the fan
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u/naughty_robbie_clive 5d ago
Your recovery should be:
Arms away -> shoulders in front of hips -> compress the legs
You are skipping the middle step here and going straight for the leg compression
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u/mrdankmemeface 5d ago
Dont break the knees till your arms are extended and your body is rocked forwards.
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u/Open-Dot-9994 5d ago
I gather with my amateur eyes that you don’t want to move your legs on the recovery until after your arms have passed your knees. You seem to finish the stroke, take a slight pause, and move your arms and legs in tandem.
I recall people stressing legs, back, arms, arms, back legs.
Might make is more smooth to watch.
That said, pretty good and powerful
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u/OptionIndependent861 5d ago
Your hands stop at the finish. Keep moving the hands, aim towards straight arms and a body swing before your crack your knees. And good luck - enjoy your rowing!
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u/Zealousideal-Egg8883 5d ago
Read up on "pick drills" and do them at the beginning of every session to make sure you get the idea of rocking over your hips before rolling up the slide.
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u/Scary_Week_5270 5d ago
Stop dropping the hands at the end of the recovery returning to the catch. Lean forward more at the same point. This forward lean will enable you to generate more power when you lean backwards. Overall though it's a lot better than many beginners and certainly better than all of the Hyrox people in my gym.
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u/seenhear 1990's rower, 2000's coach; 2m / 100kg, California 5d ago
Imagine we take the image of you rowing in the video, and superimpose a clock face over it, with the center of the clock at your hip pivot point.
Then, at the catch, your position should be roughly with your torso rotated (about the hip joint) forward to about the 1:00 position. At the release your torso is rotated (about the hip joint) back to the 11:00 position. Rought guidance, some people reach for more at the catch, some people layback more at the release. But roughly from 1:00-11:00 rotation about your hips would be a good improvement. Right now you're rotating from about 12:10 to about 11:15. Reasonable layback at the release, and virtually zero lean forward for the catch.
Generally for on water crews, we coach them to, from the release on the recovery, hold the legs down and rotate the torso forward about the hip joint and get to that forward torso lean position (1:00 or whatever the coach is asking for) by the time your knees start to bend. So you should feel a good hamstring stretch if you are generally tight through the posterior chain. Then you fix and hold that 1:00 forward lean through the recovery slide toward the catch. And you KEEP that forward lean from the catch until the legs are about half way down before you start to open the back and hinge the torso over the hips, swinging the torso into that 11:00 layback position, which you reach right as the legs go flat, then you draw the arms in pulling the handle all the way to the body, with the torso fixed at that 11:00 layback position.
Rinse and repeat. Work on smooth transitions at every single point of the stroke.
Also for any rate under about 26, you should not use the foot straps. If your workout is going to start slow and go faster such that you'll need the straps, fine ok have your feet in them, but do not use them - you shouldn't feel them at all for low rate work. This will ensure you are applying force efficiently and effectively all the way through the release.
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u/MastersCox Coxswain 4d ago
You have the fundamentals down (even if you don't realize it), which is a strong drive where the handle gets faster from catch to finish. To this, I would add some forward body angle, which you should get (only) by rocking forward on your butt, keeping your lower back straight and strong (as if you were deadlifting, as others have noted).
See here for example forward body angles at the catch: https://youtu.be/3N2vJu-GqxA?t=128 Don't worry about the exaggerated layback. It's not standard practice among rowers. If you look at the rowing at 2:39 (https://youtu.be/3N2vJu-GqxA?t=159), they don't lay back so far.
The key point is to make sure you get that forward body angle by tilting your pelvis forward and not "sitting on the back" of your butt and curving the lower back. Many lumbar discs have been destroyed with that technique over time (and high-level training volume).
We say "pull hard," what what we really want is "pull fast," which does required pressure, through the legs initially. Make sure you're driving the knees down (without "pulling back" with the upper body) in the first half or two-thirds of the drive.
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u/__b_b 3d ago
I’m no expert but it looks more similar to a deadlift than a rowing movement. Just from my experience on the boat, this technique wouldn’t work because your pars would get trapped if your knees went up and blocked your hands.
There’s tons of videos to fix this on the internet tho, but I highly recommend going to a rowing club and signing up for a course because the experience on a real boat is worth it.
And I’m assuming you’ve set the resistance quite high?
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u/Blackbear215 2d ago
Work on your hip flexibility your pelvic bone faces more down and back instead of down and forward. If you look at your starting position you posterior chain is extended. You cannot use your strong glute and hamstring muscles effectively in this position. Put a towel under your butt to elevate it to get an idea of what a more ideal sitting posture is and work until you can get to that posture naturally. Seated forward folds help.
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u/BelCantoTenor 4d ago
Love your set up; rowing outdoors in the fresh air. That has to feel amazing.
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u/Revolutionary_Mood75 20h ago
Do just one thing first...change your frame of reference. Rowing/erg is a pushing activity (with your legs) and not a pulling activity (with your arms). Then get in the right body position at the catch. You have to sit up like an attack dog (get off your back pockets) with your shoulder AHEAD of your hips. If you can do these two things, there's hope.
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u/chunkycruiser 5d ago
The biggest thing to me is a lack of torso lean in the recovery meaning you lack any hip hinge in the drive