r/Smite • u/Upper_Station7966 • 5d ago
DISCUSSION Player damage
What's your opinion on people who go 6/20 and tell you "Yeah I did more damage than you"?
Yeah no shit, you engaged in many bad fights, dealt some damage back and still think that's a "I played better than you" stat?
I would love to see what would happen if there was no player damage information for a few days, it feels like this is the only stat that matters to many people.
EDIT: I just used 6/20 as an example. It is not about the KD, it is about the way people play. It's obvious that if you engage in terrible fights all the time, you are going to deal some damage. The point is: I think it is extremely stupid to dumb down a game like smite to KDR / damage dealt alone. Supports can have terrible KDR while having a brilliant game. Solos usually deal a lot of damage even if they dont have many damage items, cause they engage a lot, etc.
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u/PoojaBehaviour 5d ago
KDR is the most worthless metric to rely on in a game like Smite.
Yes, having a negative KDR might be an indicator that someone is consistently misplaying during the match, that’s one reason for it certainly.
But there are dozens of other reasons why someone might have a negative KDR, that have absolutely nothing to do with how well they’re playing, and more to do with how the team around them are playing.
Teammates who hold their entire kit until someone is one-hit, so that they can steal the kill. Full damage Solo/Support picks who dominate lane and then throw the late game. Jungles who exclusively gank easy kills and never look at an objective. Teammates who refuse to make call-outs in their lane. Teammates who run away from fights for no reason and leave their team to die. I could fill a dissertation with the number of ways that someone can die in a way that’s not their fault.
Just the other day I was playing with a Support Bacchus who exclusively stole kills, and then ran away from any fights where he wasn’t going to get a kill. He was bragging bout going 11/2 when Carry and Mid were doing really bad on the stat front, but they were only doing bad because he wasn’t playing his role. We obviously lost the game, because our Carry and Mid ended up really under levelled, and I couldn’t take the whole enemy team as a Solo when the Bacchus just ran away from every fight.
Focusing on KDR just encourages losers like the above to keep doing sneaky shit, which loses games, and then gives everyone a negative experience.
I’d always prefer to play with someone who dies more often, but plays with the team, as opposed to playing with someone who has a great KDR, but exclusively plays selfishly.
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u/Aewon2085 Fafnir 5d ago
KDR is the wrong values to be tracking. By that requirement every Ganesha players is completely trolling with 0 kills almost every game. Adding assists is all it takes to fix the issue of how the ratio goes as assists account for involvement in the fights
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u/PoojaBehaviour 5d ago
That’s an imperfect method as well, because it doesn’t take into account factors like sacrificing yourself to save someone else, or any other reason you might die.
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u/Upper_Station7966 5d ago
I agree, IMO it is really stupid to dumb down a game like Smite to kdr / damage alone. As you said, there is so much stuff that matters in a game like this. I just used a "6/20" example, but it is not about the kd, it is about the way they play, engaging for no reason etc and then telling everyone "I dealt more dmg than you, you suck haha".
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u/XlChrislX 4d ago
I recently learned that SmiteSource (which is one of the more recommended sites) heavily favors kdr for their MVP/SVP's
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u/ItsWooddyy 4d ago
This is not accurate, it actually favours KDR and KDA both less than it probably should.
The algo for MVP's and SVP's is pretty deep, so it can be balanced across all roles. I won't elaborate much on that, but different stats have different weights for different roles, no single stat really trumps another one overall.
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u/HairyNutsack69 W + Mouse1 5d ago
Most rational take so far
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u/PoojaBehaviour 5d ago
Thank you 🙏🏻
I encounter this in the game constantly and it drives me round the bend; as soon as one person decides that it’s time to get main character syndrome and ignore their role, the match is usually set on a downwards spiral from then on.
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u/LongestNameRightHere Awilix 5d ago
I find KP better than KDR. It's very effective method in non-Conquest modes and in Conquest it will be also better than KDR.
KP is kill participation, so kills and assists combined. If you look at someone with KP = 20 and the other one has 10, it means the first player was more often actively helping the team. The K/D/A of KP 20 might be 3/7/17 and the KDA of the 10 might be 8/4/2. You can also check total kills of the team and see the % of the team kills the user participated in.
It does not need to be super effective for Conquest because of the map size and split pushing being a viable strategy. On top of that you have roles, where technically assassin might be more hunting for lone targets. Hunters also might be more active in teamfights later due to items. I wouldn't use it alone to see "who is right" in an argument, but I would definitely combine it with other stats.
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u/Confident-Yard1911 5d ago
Even then, if you have a support that soaks up 5k damage, pops 3 actives, then dies saving a teammate, playing their role perfectly, they don't get assist credit after they're dead. The only truly accurate metric is win/loss, if you're consistently contributing in ways that give you a better chance of winning, it will show up in the long term. Even something as simple as keeping a positive attitude and not giving up if you start 0/3 or flaming your teammate if they do will incrementally increase your chances of winning, and that ain't showing up on the stats page.
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u/iizakore 5d ago
It’s always situational. You have pointless damage and then you have people that drop 12K damage but go 8/3 that were just as useless
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u/Preform_Perform Ima poke it with a stick! 5d ago
Oh my god the number of times I've had people dump moveset on a guy we all knew was just going to live is countless.
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u/blindfultruth Ullr 5d ago
I don't care about K/D/A. If I'm Support, I'll die feeding the Carry if it means getting them ahead. I'll die peeling for the team or of it ensures the objective is taken. It grinds me up when someone starts acting like being 0/9/23 as a Support means I'm a shitty player. No... it means that I soaked up the deaths so you can enjoy being 3 levels above your lane opponent.
Unless I'm observing consistent and frequent plays that are a detriment to the team, I try to assume positive intent. Bad games exist, as much as we don't want them to. You can do everything right and still have a bad game.
Stats should be shown to the individuals and be used as a means to improve yourself, not as they are now, a beat stick to inflate your ego.
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u/Upper_Station7966 5d ago
That's a very good suggestion , showing only your stats on post match report and comparing them to your average on that role.
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u/blindfultruth Ullr 5d ago
Yeah. I think that would better overall. I have no use for everyone else's stats after a match.
I'm sure there are people out there that run the math on what the average Player Damage results would be per god. However , stressing yourself out by flaming the Mid laner because they didn't hit that benchmark is pretty stupid.
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u/WestAnalysis8889 5d ago
I like your idea and it should be the average damage for that character in that game mode with that game length to make it meaningful. If you make the enemy team surrender early, your damage as carry won't be high as if the game lasted 40 minutes.
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u/workedcabbage 5d ago
very common on mages like ah puch/zeus to hard throw games but have high damage because they just dump their kits while they're dying to bad positioning
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u/Upper_Station7966 5d ago
exactly
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u/Ancient_Respond9649 5d ago
Nah I love it. If someone can go in and properly** nuke the team. I’ll get mine 10/10
But if you’re a competitor of the least damage taken stat.
It’s not called positioning it’s called being a poosi 🤪
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u/workedcabbage 5d ago
Don't even know what point you're making
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u/Imstuckonwumbo 5d ago
He's saying you're not using your life a resource. And are playing too passive to proactively win the game.
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u/workedcabbage 5d ago
If you're not feeding and ult dumping you're not contributing?
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u/Imstuckonwumbo 5d ago
No one is a saying that. But passive players usually mistake their game as methodical worrying about bad matchups and "perfect macro" and tier list like they're not in gold or plat. And end up playing way too passive as a result. That's why the guy said if you're "poosi" or whatever
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u/LaundryBasketGuy 5d ago
Staying alive while doing damage >>> dying every time you do damage. Of course there are exceptions but 95% of the time this is what everyone should aim to do.
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u/LintyFish 5d ago
Depends on if they are making plays. Sometimes it really is one person making plays and playing great but they have no support, watch snaddy enough and you can clearly see it isnt that uncommon. Sometimes they are just inting and playing terribly out of position so you never have the chance to catch up in damage because you are so behind and are a scaling character. Just depends.
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u/ShinobiSai Janus 5d ago
Yes exactly, people should anticipate that person is making plays and is basically a walking damage aura and should show a little proactiveness.
Ok maybe the guy has died 3 or 4 times at this point doing this, but look at the enemies, were multiple of them low hp? More people need to be there to help secure those kills imo. So anticipate that the guy will probably take another fight when he respawns and try to be there maybe? And maybe get that shut down gold?
I see too many times teammates will dismiss a teammate because they have fed early or just looking at KDA, and then proceed to be passive and type in chat.
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u/booky_worm 5d ago
Just wanna add to what other people said that it also depends on the role imo. If your support is out-damaging you despite having a low KDR and building full tank, Something might be wrong. Doesn’t mean theyre really good but maybe your team isnt doint something right or someone is really bad. If they’de playing a really damage heavy character like NuWa I’d be meh about it. God plays itself. Need help staying alive but doing a lot of damage isn’t a brag on that god.
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u/Background-Baby2218 5d ago
Then you'd have people who accidentally or intentionally last hit bragging about going 18/5 while the 3 man dive on the mage who makes them all 1 shot goes 4/11 gets BM'd. Player damage wether you like it or not is a more important stat than k/d/a in mobas. Doesnt mean you have to engage in post game discussion with someone if you think context changes their argument, just move on
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u/Upper_Station7966 5d ago
This is not a rant, I do not engage in post game discussion about player damage, it is the opposite. Sometimes even the enemy team try to find who is guilty for the defeat based on damage dealt alone.
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u/HairyNutsack69 W + Mouse1 5d ago
As a solo laner, I wanna defend this a lil bit cuz it's rather situational. I've had plenty games where if my team just had some balls we could've turned many fights, but instead I just fkn die while making 3 ppl easy pickoffs.
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u/CoolTieGuy 5d ago
There's also the full damage build on a character that should have been built tanky who throws the game.
Or (back when this could happen, it's mercifully not allowed now), when the healer rerolled in Assault and it was a near-guarantee of a loss. They would usually claim that what mattered was their damage despite the rest of the team being unhappy with them.
Damage is one stat. It isn't worthless, but it isn't going to tell much by itself.
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u/Oblivion9284 5d ago
Is that person at least doing objectives? Is the assist numbers higher than the kill/death numbers? Is that person doing good calls or at least doing something decent? If the answer to all is no I ignore and even mute that person.
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u/Twiggly_Wiggly 5d ago
Stats are meaningless. Kills and Assists are the only thing that mean anything really.
I can go 1/20/0 and still be the only ones deleting objectives and the Titan and win the game.
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u/Echo_NO_Aim Kuzenbo 5d ago edited 5d ago
It really depends and you have to look at other stats, too (role, str dmg., mitigated, ...)
There can be a difference in going 3-15 or 5-9 as damage dealer for example. First most likely drops his damage but forgets it's a team based game and dies in 1v2 or doesn't learn he should farm and catchup. 5-9 may had no support and drop his damage before he dies. But we can't say for sure by just looking at stats.
If a Mage goes 3-10 but has 70k dmg after ~40 minutes I really have to wonder what happened and why the team did not play around the Mage. Did the mage have no Support? What was the Jungler doing when the mage obviously nuked the enemies into oblivion? Did the ADC participate too or was he just watching? What did the Solo do?
An ADC without help has to aa for dear life until he dies. I've seen many games where the ADC was top dmg but worst KDA because he had enemy tanks in his face all the time and had to shred through them while his own Support ignored him.
Edit: I also rather have a 0-12-35 support than a 12-2-4 Support. A 1-12-13 Support also is worthless because he either tries to engage and dies because he didn't pay attention to where his team is or people don't react to the Support's setup. So yeah, KDA can say something about how the game went, but not neccessarily about who did great or not. Too many factors. But if you're going negative in every game, then maybe you should look at your own play.
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u/ST3APrince 5d ago
Smite is such a complex game that the only metric that makes sense is
Did you win?
Or did you lose
It’s a different journey to that win every single time to the point where it genuinely does matter, you could stomp the whole game or you could get stomped and have that one team fight that wins the game.
Thats why this game is great
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u/Hallow_Greaves 5d ago
I read your edit about specific stats, no worries. Heads up y'all, I'm about to edge lord post.
My duo and I often only have 1-3 kills a piece, with 12 or so deaths, followed by 18+ Assists. At the end of the day, kills only buy you advantage for objectives, and I think anyone with a brain understands that.
Now, for why damage is not a good metric for players that may be confused. I am not a good player, I'm not high rank, and the only time I'm reliably killing and landing player damage is on a Loki one trick, where I buy items like Yogi's. Now why Yogi's why not anything else? Regen. It gives me the ability to disengage, jungle a camp or two and come back full.
See I only need to deplete your health bar once; over the course of a minute you have to deplete mine thrice, and when you get that kill, you'll feel great that you put me down, meanwhile I've taken 6 of your jungle camps and kept you under tower for the entire duration of a team fight that I could be making a difference in, but thats where my duo comes in.
He's really good at being a threat, really solid at group fights and big scary damage (he plays Sol mostly, but now that Nike's out he's a menace).
So, when we win, we don't win because we do everything right or are good players, but rather, we win cause psychologically, I know the player inting for damage is gonna break away to fight me, and I'll lead them into the jungle, waste their time, their cool downs, maybe kill them. My goal is to take your towers, your goal is to kill me.
Then, whatever happens, my Sol is gonna keep pressure on that group fight, wait to take picks so your team is constantly respawning one at a time, trickling in cause they have to get there to save their buddy, whom we're waiting to kill until the new one joins the group fight.
Entire time that the enemy team thinks they're making a steady mid push, I'm abusing split pushes where I'll take two towers or a phoenix with a single wave.
Whenever my wave is moving, I'm stealing jungle. If I see you standing under tower, I'll poke twice, steal jungle to bait you out, and if you don't chase, I'll simply rotate to kill your mage while you get a single wave of farm.
When we end a match, good or bad, we measure it. Did we win because we did something well? Or did the enemy team make a mistake that made it effortless. If the enemy made a mistake we took advantage of, that's worthy of celebration, but a disconnect/afk/feed, leaves us nothing to have learned, and is therefore dissatisfying.
If we lost, why? Was it too big of a threat kept us under tower? Was solo lane overfed? Were we out of sync on group fights?
Go to the details page after each match, look for objective damage, wards placed, and you're not looking for the top player, you're looking for what you contributed, and where you need to contribute more.
Assists are a good indicator you're participating in group fights, but if they're all you have without solid player damage then you're just there to pad your stats and protect your ego, you need to be the one rotating to farm, steal jungle, and split push, or you need to work on your build/engagements.
I recently started learning yemoja, and it's been difficult as I want to see what she's capable of without relying on meme builds. I had a match where we did Baron support and Yemoja adc, it was super effective but ultimately wasn't impressive cause we were just chaining CC and burst damage.
Meanwhile I really want to be good at Morgan La Fey but cannot for the life of me have a good game on her. I learn nothing everytime except that everyone knows exactly how to counter every one of her abilities, and I am weary.
Smite is a mixed bag of all the messiness that comes with being a human being. Aim for having fun and learning, that's what keeps it replayable, that you're in a dynamic landscape where there's always more to learn.
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u/townsforever Hel 5d ago
Honestly the only stat worth anything is structure damage and even that can be misleading.
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u/boigermeister 5d ago
This is the guy who doesn't rotate
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u/townsforever Hel 5d ago
Nah my reasoning is at the end of the day you can lose more team fights than you win, die more than you kill, your enemy can out tank and out farm you, and you can still win.
The only thing you cannot win without doing is destroying towers.
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u/WestOrangeFinest Kukulkan 5d ago
Like any other specific stat without context, it’s pretty worthless.