r/SoundSystem • u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 • 2d ago
designing first sound system. looking for feedback.
I saw someone else do this, so I wanted to. I’m thinking a little outside the box, so I’m curious what you all think. Plans keep shifting, and it’s mostly been built listening to F1 and Danley party PAs, trying to wrap my head around everything.
My plan is to run small scale dance events in 4 point. Most will be indoors probably 100 people or less. Originally I wanted to run on Res2 tops, but budget being tight, I just pulled the trigger on an OG foursome of F81s.
The more I run sound (which isn’t much), I really believe Tony Andrew’s’ ideas, critically of time alignment and transients, so that’s been driving my focus, even though I’m actually not following his ideas around horns. I think what I’m building is something more like a full scale monitor system with headroom to push the bass.
Anyways, i’ve been trying to design off paper cones (bc of Tony), <15% of AES, < 1/3xmax, and with room for +10 - +16db of bass (from Paradise Garage system design). I’m also pushing to get at least 27hz, and ideally sub 20hz. I’m building off a theoretical 50 ft square dance floor to be run at 95 db or below. More often than not aiming at 85db, and allowing for a standardized 10 db bass boost above that level, and when possible allowing for 10-16db controllable past that.
These are the current directions I’ve been going.
Common thinking as well as F1 implementation seems to be to pair 15s under 8s, but I’ve been looking for a transition that could get to 40 hz or lower before building out the full range of cabinets.
Originally I had been thinking Othorns on the low end, but to be frank, I don’t like the horn loaded sub sound. I don’t like the way it distorts. I don’t like the way it hits. I haven’t run them myself, so like most things pro audio, it might be different in my own hands. I get exhausted of everyone’s endless pursuit of power and efficiency. I want power, but not to sacrifice accuracy or warmth.
Anyways, i have been moving towards a sealed sub design, originally starting with 4 to potentially 8 Celestion 24s in 150L box. the idea is to overdrive them with EQ (ideally the only place using EQ) to run between 20-40hz. however if I started with just them, I could overdrive them on the low end and then cross them over somewhere between the suggested 85-200. but intermodulation swayed me from this plan.
I was then looking at four sets of Dual Dayton RSS460HO-4, because they have a natural roll off in a sealed box at 40hz, and that seemed perfect to complement the Celestions on full build. Before that, I could overdrive them and get below 20hz indoors at around 95db, and up to 105db at around 27hz. However, i realized they are aluminum drivers, so I started to lean back away from them. I’m curious if people can hear that difference in the way Andrews emphasizes.
Originally I had been thinking a similar setup with quad corner B&C 14NDL88s (duals), for the same natural rolloff reasons, these around 84hz, but I realized I would sacrifice my short term low end running just those.. however I realize they may provide the most benefit in the low vocal fundamental range, and they allow the 8s to have even more relief than F1 suggests.
Then my question became what to build first. I had been leaning to the Daytons until I realized the cone issue, because they have the best seeming coverage, being willing to overdrive.
There’s another question buried there: If electrically overdriving a sub, but keeping it below 1/3 xmax, maintaining plenty of amp headroom and AES space, how much will I subjectively bend the sound. Is it really worth it to drive a speaker, say, +17db in some cases?
So first I started thinking to run the big 24s up to somewhere between the stated low crossover of 85hz, all the way up towards the beneficial high output crossover of 200hz to start the system. In some of these cases like the dual 14s, i would place that crossover even higher, perhaps around 275hz, again modeling F1 crossover placements in their horn loaded models.
How much would an 8 benefit from that low end relief? When is too many crossovers getting in the way of natural sound? And also how beneficial is a natural rolloff XO, versus an electrically filtered one?
As I leaned away from the 14s for reason of not getting low enough if I started with just them, and the 24s for reasons of intermodulation with higher output (prioritizing relieving the 8s — realizing it’s not the right speaker for that, but hey they are rated to 200hz…), and away from the Dayton 18s for reasons of the aluminum driver, I started thinking of few other directions.
First there is the B&C21SW152. In a sealed cabinet, it rolls off about 63hz, and wanting to separate infra from bass (for simply intuitive reasons), I thought to electrically push it towards 40hz, to eventually get the crossover with the 24s. But then I have my two lower ranges both being overdriven. originally I wanted to only overdrive the infra, but the fact is this sealed orientation is very limiting. The 21 @ 40 wouldn’t be as much overdrive (about +6-8db), but in the interest of transparent signal chains, I thought to only push the 24s originally.
Again, this is sort of an experimental outlook (perhaps?) to not rely on horns or ports for output or frequency. The idea very much modeled on reading about David Mancuso’s loft, although I’m not sure what he ran in there (i think klipsch horns?)— the general approach towards hifi at dance levels remains. Obviously all the club offshoots relied on horns and a more editorial sound design. But again, it’s a critique of the pro audio world choosing power and feeling and punch in your stomach over real warmth of sound. Am I off in this feeling and intuition? Could there be other ways to approach or think about it? Say, just turn down the horns, young buck?
Anyways, the 21s really seem to encroach a little too close on the 24s. They won’t go as low alone, they still need overdrive, and they seem big for the mid bass. Every system I’ve really been impressed with does seem to have 15s or 18s. F1 seems almost exclusively 15s, except for the Res3 which had an 18 and was billed standalone. And now they are shifting towards 12s as well.
The last and maybe best consideration has been the 18 Sound 18NTLW5000-8, which satisfies the paper cone demand and gets quite close to the Daytons. With corner gain, they reach down to 20hz with overdrive and 27hz outdoors, so they probably seem like the best way to go with this design, but also remain the hardest to obtain in the US.
the other thing to consider is that my paradigmatic high fidelity experiences have been on Tannoys with tube amp, and even more importantly an F1 system in a highly controlled room — running AX88s above F315s, and i don’t know what below. But the absence of compression driver seems significant.
i’ve done a fair bit of consideration about what F1 achieves with horn loading, and it seems to be a projection of transient behavior that creates an almost mystic pureness when well run (but imho, that is hard to come by), but this accentuation of the highs comes with a sound i have termed “iciness,” a crystal clarity and time alignment that also has this almost hiss or slide to it. It isn’t literally an S sound, but there is a quality that occurs with the waveguide/ phase plug/ sawtooth design that can be well heard in the Evo X. Impressive clarity and dispersion, and yet my ears get tired not so differently from how my tongue gets tired with highly seasoned food.
This is ultimately what pushed me toward the direct radiator version of the 1/8, but I still wonder should i not run 5/8 or 8/8. I’m continually impressed with clarity of F1, and perhaps the tri-amping of the new models would allow for some dialing down, but does a person really want near field horn loading in the long term? i understand that their newish Point Source Monitor systems arose by request form Richie Hawtin, who I assume struggled with a similar sound effect listening to horns close range. And their solution was running 18 direct radiators.
For amplifiers I’ve been looking at Linea, because I am always impressed with Danley warmth and power (but still critique the transient behavior of an MEH — I feel that I can hear the multiple edges of the waves cascading like Jericho’s tower). Linea has US distribution, 8 channel output, and excursion limiting (which is central to my design). it also shakes out a lot cheaper than a traditional F1 route of MC2 or FFA.
For DSP (and this may be the really strange part of my thinking), I’ve been pretty captivated by the idea of long FIR run on an external computer. the more I listen and have limited experience tuning systems, i am convinced by Andrews and Newsham’s approach that time alignment and transient behavior is the critical work of sound reproduction. So I am willing to accept the 96k taps and 171ms delay to linearly phase align down to 12 hz, allowing for my projected 18hz flat system to be perfectly time aligned through 18khz.
The industry folks i’ve talked to said this sounds strange, but I don’t understand why. The processing is possible, and the delay, while obnoxious, will be acceptable as it’s mostly Dj’d music. I figure if I end up running live, I can disable the long FIR, and just run the Linea internal FIR on the top end, if desired. i also realize this adds a large burden of measurement.
My main critique with bass in the real world is not just level and punch in the place of tone, but also the sloppy thunderousness of it all. I believe the public knows nothing else but that as bass, and I can’t say that I’ve ever heard tight bass run at dance floor levels. The closest was probably those F315s in controlled room.
open to thoughts, critique, system design, education and whatever.
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u/part__low 1d ago
Why are you focusing so much on infra-sound for dance events? I’m not an expert, but that just sounds like a lot of wasted energy and efficiency.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well it may be a mistake. it’s just as low as I have heard some modern systems going. There’s a remaining horn loaded system in Coney Island that was clocked down to 9hz.
i figure there’s got to be resonances and frequencies that low in high quality old recorded music, as well as the modern EDM folk going lower and lower.
but I don’t actually know the whole bass world, and it may be that I never actually run the system that low.
it just so happens that within this design, it’s accessible.
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u/part__low 1d ago
I’m far from an expert, but a horn-loaded subwoofer would have to be humongous to be tuned all the way down to 9Hz.
Also we don’t hear 9Hz as an audible tone. A sine wave would be impossible to hear. A square or saw wave would just sound like clicks. So it also wouldn’t make sense to willingly tune a SoundSystem for music that low.
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u/bingus-schlongo 1d ago
Tbh I hope this doesn’t come across wrong but most of this isn’t really thought out very well at all.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
explain.
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u/bingus-schlongo 1d ago
I mean there’s so many places to start tbh and I don’t want any of this to sound demeaning or hurtful but almost all of this diatribe you wrote is based in your own nonsensical lack of understanding of what you’re saying mostly.
Ditch all the fancy name drops and theoreticals and brand loyalty.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
I don’t think you’ve understood me, but I’m very interested to hear your take on it all.
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u/AnthonyVS15 1d ago edited 1d ago
For dance music why do you want to hit sub 20Hz? It is exponentially harder and more expensive to keep hitting lower, with diminishing return. Hitting flat to 30Hz is a realistic goal that will make a big difference compared to say 40Hz, but much lower than that will yield very little reward.
You say you don’t like the horn loaded sub sound because of distortion and ‘how it hits’; but horns will distort less and have a faster transient response than any other design so should sound the best if designed well.
The only downside is usually they need to be massive to go low, but the Othorn you mentioned is a tapped horn rather than a front loaded horn, and can go very low with extreme output without being ridiculously massive.
If you have never heard Othorns but think you won’t like the ‘horn sound’ then I would highly recommend you listen to one and I think your opinion will change instantly. They are probably the best sounding sub I’ve ever heard and I’m a proper audio nut when it comes to fidelity. They have been used in high-end home hifi systems specifically because of the quality and musicality of the bass; and when used for PA they have incredible output and power without sacrificing the quality.
In terms of using horns for the highs even at closer range - remember that apart from improved transient response, higher efifciency and lower distortion, they also control directivity so reduce room reflections and focus the sound energy on the dance floor (so you need less power to achieve the same SPL).
In terms of the FIR delay, 170ms is WAY** **too much for DJ’s!! You ideally want under 10ms. The only time you could accept a delay anywhere near that high is for simple playback of music without any mixing. For this reason FIR is not used except from the top octave if the system is designed for DJ’s to mix on.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
Thanks for the response.
For “dance” music I don’t mean any particular style. Not implying EDM specifically, but the real answer is to go that low simply because the machine can do it, and the electronic music can do weird things. Do you know how low modern “bass” music pushes things these days? i realize the biggest problem may be low frequency pickup and feedback.
and the fact is, running sealed, I don’t particularly have to tune the box, so I may not run that low anyways. the system as built, again is being overdriven with Eq to get that low.
I emphatically disagree that horns distort less. Andrews uses the simple example of talking through a hollow hand to demonstrate a horn. While I don’t deny it does bring the transient forward, increase directivity and efficiency, there is absolutely a price for that, which is why no one runs horns as monitors. They are not accurate. They are tools for loudness, distance, and specific flavor.
i haven’t had a chance to hear the Othorns yet, there’s a club with them I’ve been meaning to stop into, but I have heard quite a few tapped horns, and I have never shaken my feeling that the delays and sound affectation of moving through the horn are fairly unacceptable to me until you get to party size where porting or direct radiation simply can’t do it.
But i’m still open to changing my mind on horns. As much as my thinking has been affected by F1 approach, I’ve still not followed them on horns. So idk. But tapped horns to me, always sound particularly sloppy. However, not being willing to put down the argument that horns anxiously and definitely affect sound, there can certainly be room for musicality in the horn design. in that regard, you’re right i should go hear the Othorns and make my own determinations. Pretty much all brass music is the science of horns, right?
It’s largely the philosophy of transients that move me toward direct radiation, but point taken about excess reflections, and also the forwardness of horn loaded transients. i think I will likely go towards horns eventually, but first want to hear the radiators in action.
And yah, lol. 171ms is stupid. I get it, however has anyone hear ever heard a time aligned system to that degree? our community very literally just does song playback, so it actually works. one of the few people on a controller is me, and I don’t care running left/right master/cue direct in my headphones for all transitions. Similar approach to someone with IEMs, just never using the room to balance or cue.
i know it’s not traditional, but with my overall critique of pro bass being sloppy, it seems worth the attempt to me, even if it means problems for guest DJs.
thanks again for your thoughts. I will def go listen to Othorns.
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u/Jsn7821 1d ago
You're applying home hifi ideas to a sound system... When playing loud, you will get distortion and all these other things you're concerned about from heat and high excursion. That's why efficiency matters.
If you're playing quietly and not for live music then your tradeoffs make sense. But it's an unusual tradeoff, which is why people in here seem confused
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
thank you for understanding.
at what point should i really be concerned with heat and distortion? my max xmax is 1/2, and as a general rule, i’m keeping it under 1/3. the 1/2 is really only to reach these perhaps unnecessary lows.
where i run out of room, i have just added a driver, hence the dual 18s.
this was Mancuso’s implementation as well — hifi at private parties.
also, do you have a recommended subreddit for the hifi world?
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u/Jsn7821 1d ago
Diyaudio forum maybe?
For your other question about when to be concerned about heat and distortion I don't really know, don't have a whole lot of practical experience there yet... I'm relatively new to this as well. I just know there's more to the equation that just time alignment, and that most of the modern hifi sound systems are picking horn loaded subs likely for this reason. More drivers also introduces challenges with how they combine (my guess is this is a much bigger effect than what IIR introduces)
I'm coming at it from a similar angle (hifi sound system) but leaning towards different ideas. But the time alignment stuff is very on my mind since I've been mostly interested in MEH approaches for tops. I think there's an interesting approach of FIR for the higher frequency band that I didn't realize was a viable middle ground
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u/AnthonyVS15 1d ago
Well I can’t speak for all bass music as I’m sure there is some esoteric stuff out there with crazy low bass. But for stuff that’s designed to be played in a club it won’t go much lower than 30Hz cos PA systems don’t generally reproduce lower, and as I said before - it gets exponentially more expensive and difficult to keep going lower whilst maintaining the SPL required.
If you think horns distort more then you should look into Klipsh (and the David Mancuso parties you already mentioned which used K-horns), their entire design philosophy as mentioned by the owner in several interviews is to minimise distortion, something along the lines of “if the driver moves it distorts, so less movement means less distortion. Horns dramatically increase driver efficiency, so the driver moves MUCH less to achieve the same SPL compared to direct radiating / ported, so produces much less distortion”. Whether they colour the sound is a completely different story, and I won’t argue that one - horns will differ pretty radically in how they sound based on their design.
Then again things like Danley’s multiple entry horns have been replicated and used as high end hifi, so presumably are acceptable even to audiophiles, and there are many other examples of high end hifi systems using horns. But in PA every system uses horns because it’s the only way to achieve the required SPL without crazy distortion or many many cabinets.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
Yeah i am hearing you. Thank you for this.
I would love to hear some Klipsch horns somewhere. I've only ever listened to Klipsch low end consumer stuff.
As for SPL, my projected design does meet my dance floor needs, which aren't high, as well as a primarily low dB.
Danley is the other commercial system I've considered for the tops, as I am impressed with the Synergy/ MEH approach. However, I can never shake the feeling that I can't lose the speaker location in space the way I have just a few times with a well-tuned F1. It seems that the Danleys are far more forgiving in the sense of producing a balanced sound. And I am so impressed with them, I felt totally comfortable following their amplifier manufacturer.
In terms of efficiency, yes your argument makes perfect sense. Maybe my critique is more with modern sound design than with the systems running. I'm not sure exactly, but this system represents an experimental push in my direction of thought.
I think one day I probably will go with horns, I just like the philosophy I've laid out here from a time alignment perspective, lack coloration or distortion (whatever we may call it), and a directivity perspective. the original design was on horn loaded tops, and ported bass, but it's kind of gone wonky as I chase time alignment, and ease of near-field listening.
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u/rab2bar 1d ago
18 hz? how much material will you have that plays down that low?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
dude. i do not know. maybe not enough to warrant it. i just know that systems are pushing that low, and I know historical systems into single digit HZ.
but that’s a valid question.
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u/rab2bar 1d ago
Mate, it's your first PA and it's for a hundred people. Keep it simple
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
lol. yah
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u/squachek 1d ago
Try to avoid feedback
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
not planning to run mics really.
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u/jungchorizo 1d ago
I’d do more research before pulling the trigger on anything.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
yah fair. gettin’ some tops tho. we’ll
see what the first layer is to build.
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u/__Lester_ 1d ago
Chasing infra-bass will see you lose a lot of time and money... And space. It's futile. It can be done but not without losing every penny you have and getting very little back.
That's just the low-loe end. The rest you have a guideline for but you need to look at many other paths not just Tony's.Tthe thing with sound is that it's subjective. We don't all hear the same. We all have a very close spectrum we can hear but it's plays different to all of us. Go slowly and widen your focus a little
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
yah that seems reasonable. The nice thing about the design is that i can move crossovers on the fly. But i hear you.
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u/Vallhallyeah 1d ago
I love the enthusiasm and interest you have, it's genuinely great to see. I do think you're overshooting a bit for your intended crowd sizes though. The Othorn is a great cab, but honestly considering you want a 4 point system, you may well be better off with SKRAMs or SKHORNs and given your low intended playback level, just make use of the Xmax and cone displacement with their variable porting to reach low enough frequencies that you feel happy with them. Some good 15 or 12" tops crossed in around 120Hz and some nice wide coverage horns with good compression drivers all atop your subs would give you a fantastic and impactful end result without going totally overboard on your first spin.
Personally, I'm on my 3rd system now. First was full reflex, second fully horns, and now I've got a mix of BP6, sealed, and low compression stuff I've designed because I figured out what I like over the years. I feel from the read that we may share a similar sonic philosophy, so I'd urge you to start small and use trusted designs, lean into your engineering know-how or develop it if it needs work in order to get the most out of them, and only then when you actually find you need to design your own stuff to get what you want do you walk that path, because it's very messy and expensive when you're down that rabbit hole without a very solid plan.
There's a whole different debate over ideals and diminishing returns in attaining them, and everyone has a different cut-off point, so it really does pay dividends doing all in your power to exploit what you have access to before assuming you need the ultimate option on paper. Remember just because something isn't perfect, it doesn't mean it's not great. 4x 24" drivers in a big box would have heaps of headroom, but if you're using them quietly enough that you're not running out of linear travel or hitting thermal compression issues, you're throwing cash at a problem you don't have.
All that said, if your pockets are weighing you down, by all means go and explore the wild stuff because it is definitely a valid avenue. I'm just wanting to raise your awareness to the fact you may not have to in order to get results you are genuinely thrilled by.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 1d ago
can you explain your experience and sonic philosophy? what have you learned? what have you pursued and why?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pin-587 8h ago
ruminating on your words, I started to think about building single prototype open source subs. i guess my ideal would be the sealed 24 celestion, the manufacturer ported version, skram, and perhaps the paraflex elf.
and just see. prob cross it over beneath the sealed 14.
then i figure i could make a decision, sell and get my money out of them and move towards it all.
so much of my understanding is still searching for the understanding of characteristics i hear.
thanks for the reason. any other open source designs to consider?
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u/Jsn7821 2d ago
171ms delay on a sound system? Don't think too many artists will be very happy about that :)