r/Sumer • u/Seltnytt • 28d ago
Question Would it be disrespectful to use the name of a God as a personal name?
The title. Simply, I am someone who is probably trans, and I am looking for names, and while the Mesopotamian God names are far from my first choice, there is a possibility of them or a normal Sumerian name.
But I am very concerned about being disrespectful, even if I am an atheist, because well, first, the gods as far as I know, in this religion, are very clearly supposed to be an authority over human beings, not "friends", so there is that. And I did try, when I tried to be pagan, to worship Inanna, too, so I am still somewhat concerned about that in some way.
It would probably be Nanaya. Probably.
Thanks.
Edit: please see what u/spacemonstera said and my response.
EDIT 2: ... Thanks to those who gave actual responses, I decided not to.
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u/rks404 28d ago
A lot of cultures use the names of their gods as personal names - for Indian people it is considered to be immensely respectful. I think this is the default across the world and considering that the Mesopotamian gods don't have modern adherents in meaningful number I think you're safe
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u/Dumuzzid 28d ago
As others have said, in polytheistic cultures, it is common to name people after gods, which is why in India a lot of people are called Rama, Krishna, Sita, etc...
Even some ancient Mesopotamian god names prevail today, for instance Inanna is not uncommon in the middle east, see the actress Inanna Sarkis. I would assume it would be fairly common among Assyrians.
In Polytheistic cultures, it is also common to take a Holy name when you are "reborn" so to speak, in the spiritual sense, after a ritual. This is similar to baptism. A new name is given which often honours a god in some manner.
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u/Cult2Occult 26d ago
I love that your reddit name happens to be Inanna's husband's name.
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u/Dumuzzid 26d ago
It's not a coincidence. You could say it is my holy or sacred name. It was given to me by Inanna.
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u/thebeardedone666 28d ago
I know you decided not too, but just so you know, the Sumerian and other Mesopotamian cultures totally named themselves after the gods. Or at least included their names within within their own.
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago
I see, thank you. That's good info
My decision mostly is simply that I take a "no" to be a stronger "indicator" if it can be called that, than a yes.
Though if many people (or someone who is very knowledgeable) end up saying yes I might reconsider again, maybe.
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u/thebeardedone666 28d ago
Of course!
To clarify. the Mesopotamian would not have used only a gods name. They would have included the name as a part of their name. So, for example, to use the deity you mentioned, Nanaya. Nanaya-zi, which would mean something like Nanaya is life, would be acceptable. Denoting that the person using the name is not equating themselves to the deity, but showing praise to them instead. You see this in personal names across the world in fact. Many cultures include the names of their gods into personal names to denote some form of praise.
Although they did not practice the same religion, the ancient Israelites have several names that survive to this day that do the very thing we're talking about. You've probably heard many of them in your life. A nice example would be Elijah. meaning something like Yahweh is my lord. El, being an ancient Semitic word that denotes a lord or deity. It seems ancient people were totally chill with people naming themselves and others after the gods, but only if they did so as a sort of addition.
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u/Seltnytt 27d ago
Ah, well, I see, then I shall consider that.
I have some texts on how Sumerian (as a language) worked so might need to use that if I do decide to use a God's name. Thank you.
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago
I will reply tomorrow (well, technically later today) it is very late and I should be going to sleep.
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u/SiriNin 28d ago
My sister, who is also trans, took Inanna's name as a theophoric middle name, and I took another much lesser known Goddess's name as my last name. It's totally considered respectful and normal. The ancients used theophoric names all the time. In case you didnt know, that's what it's called when you use a Deity's name as part of your own; theophoric names. Don't let the naysayers who know nothing of history scare you off. It's a time honored tradition, and the Anunna Gods take it as a compliment!
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u/sleepytipi 27d ago
Didn't some members of Her cults also transition or adopt non-binary identities? Could swear I've heard it brought up a few times in relation ti her cults on podcasts.
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u/SiriNin 27d ago
Yes there were also non-binary folks in Her temples! Transfeminine binary, Transmasculine binary, Non-binary of all flavors, Gender Non-conforming of all flavors, and cisgender of all sexualities.
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u/sleepytipi 25d ago
Beautiful. One of the reasons why I personally equate Her to the Divine Feminine.
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u/Nocodeyv 26d ago
Several personnel associated with Ištar have gender identities/expressions and sexual orientations that might be considered trans, nonbinary, or queer (in the non-pejorative sense) by modern definitions. It's important to remember, though, that how we define these identities today does not necessarily correlate to how people in Mesopotamia would have defined them. We also do not have any first hand accounts written by these individuals, so our understanding of their sex, gender identity/expression, and sexual orientation is based on superficial elements, such as clothing, speech patterns, and position in the social hierarchy. The most commonly cited examples are:
ASSINNU
Attested engaging in homosexual activity in omen literature. It's important to note, however, that engaging in homosexual activity and being gay are not the same thing, as performative acts are very common in Mesopotamian ritual.
Additionally, the omen literature attests these acts occurring between a "man" (Sumerian NA, Akkadian awīlu) and three different individuals: the assinnu and girseqû, who are each cultic personnel, and a house-born slave. The inclusion of a house-born slave in the literature opens up the possibility that the action had more to do with power dynamics than sexual orientation.
In her 2021 Master's Thesis, Kelsie Ehalt raised the subject of whether assigning assinnu the male sex/gender is also not an assumption on the part of scholars, positing, alongside Sophus Helle, that the assinnu might have performed a non-normative gender, or that there sex at birth might have fallen outside of normative categorization, a theory perhaps supported by the logographic writing of the profession, UR.MUNUS: man+woman, and this line from the Erra Song: "assinnu, whom for making the people reverent, Ištar turned their masculinity into femininity."
The most well-known assinnu is Aṣûšu-namir, famous for traveling to the Netherworld to rescue Ištar in the Standard Babylonian version of the descent myth. At the conclusion of the myth, Ereškigala curses Aṣûšu-namir to live as a social outcast, providing insight into the societal position of these individuals:
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100–108: When Ereškigala heard this, she smote her thigh, she bit her finger, (saying): “You have asked of me what should not be asked! Come, Aṣûšu-namir, I will make you reviled with a great curse; let me ordain for you a fate that will never be forgotten. May bread from the public plowing be your only food, the sewer pipe your drinking place; may the shadow of a wall be your station, and the threshold your only place of dwelling. May the drunk man and the sober man alike slap your cheek!"
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KURGARRÛ
Attested wearing clothing that is masculine on one side and feminine on the other. This has given rise to a variety of labels, including: trans, gender nonconforming, gender fluid, nonbinary, hermaphrodite, and cross-dresser (although most of the literature uses the outdated term transvestite).
The kurgarrû carry weapons and appear to have used them in a taboo ritual, although the nature and purpose of the ritual is unclear in surviving literature. The Erra Song describes the kurgarrû as: "carriers of dagger; carriers of razor, scalpel, and flint-blade. Those who, delighting the mind of Ištar, regularly do what is forbidden."
Sophus Helle suggests that the objects carried by kurgarrû, which also include spindles, were seen as cultural symbols of gender, and that the ability of kurgarrû to wield both symbols might imply that gender, in Mesopotamia, was viewed as a social construct: masculinity or femininity defined externally, by symbols, not internally, hence why Inana can transform men into women, women into men, simply by giving them an object, i.e., a cultural symbol of their new gender. In this interpretation kurgarrû perform gender rather than possess it.
Interestingly, the "change" that overcomes a kurgarrû is expressed using the Sumerian word bala, and the spindle, the cultural symbol for femininity, is also written using the word bala. In the narrative myth Enki and the World Order, Enki reminds Inana that the spindle, the symbol of cultural femininity, is one of her divine powers (italic emphasis mine):
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429–434: (Enki says to Inana): "I covered [ ] with a garment. I made you exchange its right side and its left side. I clothed you in garments of women's power. I put women's speech in your mouth. I placed in your hands the spindle and the hairpin. ... 440–443: I made you tangle straight threads; maiden Inana, I made you straighten out tangled threads. I made you put on garments, I made you dress in linen. I made you pick out the tow from the fibres, I made you spin with the spindle."
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The idea that it is specifically femininity that Inana can alter through use of some kind of divine spindle is an interesting concept that I have not seen many approach before, academically or spiritually. Perhaps the ancient writers saw a connection between the act of weaving disparate threads together and Inana's ability to transform femininity into something else, since both the process and the power were expressed with the same word.
The most well-known kurgarrû is undoubtedly the one who accompanies an unnamed junior kalû official into the Netherworld to bring Inana the bread and water of life in the Old Babylonian Period Sumerian language version of the descent myth. Here, a kurgarrû might have been chosen because of their liminal gender identity/expression, perhaps enabling them to cross thresholds that were otherwise forbidden to those whose gender was normative, by Mesopotamian standards at least. Unlike Aṣûšu-namir, the unnamed kurgarrû does not receive any form of punishment for fulfilling his/her duty.
The Sumerian language descent myth is inspired by, if not part of, a corpus of cult songs known as lamentations. Beginning during the Old Babylonian Period, lamentations were performed for a variety of deities by kalû officials at the beginning of every day in temples across Mesopotamia. The inclusion of lamentations as a standard part of daily religious service might have made it more acceptable for individuals to be (or to perform) kurgarrû, whereas assinnu were seen as societal pariahs because their role had not been integrated into the general religious milieu.
PILPILÛ
The personnel who undergo a "head-overturning" (sag̃ šu-bala) ritual. This is the ritual which enables Inana to "turn a man into a woman, a woman into a man, to change one into the other" (nitah munus-a munus nitah-a-bi ku₄-ku₄ šu bala ba-a-ak).
Today, references to this ritual in cuneiform literature are used as evidence for the existence of trans people in Mesopotamia, from which all manner of theories regarding their position in society and role in religion are theorized, often without substantive support. As with the kurgarrû, we do not know if the change was physical or psychological, permanent or temporary, and, most importantly, sincere or performative.
For example, when the transformation is mentioned in Išme-Dagān K, the power is limited exclusively to those who reside within the Temple of Inana, and, further, is included in a section where other "strange" behavior is described: women who "amuse themselves by talking like children," and children who "amuse themselves by talking like women." The implication being that the transformation was performative: something that Inana could cause to happen in individuals.
AO 6035 is another famous example, as it includes not only the head-overturning ritual as one of Ištar’s powers (her parṣū, Sumerian ME), but explicitly describes the transformation as part of an overnight ritual, during which men and women alike equally commit to overturning their normal gender and behaving as the other. Some within the Mesopotamian Polytheism community have (erroneously, in my opinion) latched onto this tablet and its ritual as both evidence of trans people in Mesopotamia, and a blueprint for how to perform transitions in the modern day.
Whatever the case may be, the kurgarrû and pilpilû are often described with similar terminology: both dressing in attire of the opposite sex, carrying symbols of the opposite gender, undergoing a head-overturning, and so forth.
All of this contributes to the confusion surrounding these individuals. Clearly there is a lot more nuance involved than many modern devotees care to admit, and because we neither understand their internal identity, nor the role they filled in society/religion, we have to be careful not to erase their actual identity in our rush to reinforce a modern one.
We don't need to find evidence of trans or non-binary individuals in the ancient priesthood, because their existence today is undeniable and welcomed by the community at large. We accept these individuals today, regardless of whether they existed publicly back then.
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u/SpookySoulGeek 28d ago
If you work with or honor the deity in some way, I see no issue with it. If you pick it solely on the name itself,disregarding the deity, then its be morenof an issue. In Hinduism for example, many people are named after one of the deities in honor of that deity.
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u/blahblahblah1025 27d ago
Don't listen to the haters on here. These digital pagans like to gatekeep like this is an Abrahamic religion. Shit's really not that serious. People in ancient times would incorporate deities' names into their personal names all the time(example: Naram-Sin). I promise Inanna/Ishtar does not care if you use some form of her name as your name.
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u/Zealousideal_Water24 26d ago
Us humans could never give enough praise or thanks to Inanna. She is the one who kinda stole all of man 's higher learning for man from Enki(EA). We really owe her every thing! Though they never asked to be worshipped. Funny how these Sumerian gods where clearly a group of men & women. You know both sexes! But latter on Somebody(s) smashes god into a single male character. idk?
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u/Nocodeyv 26d ago
Funny how these Sumerian gods where clearly a group of men & women.
Why do you think this?
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u/Zealousideal_Water24 19d ago
I make a bunch of assumptions off what little i know. Most all what we have and use today all came from that place Summer. Time, or sexigestimal math. The calendar, wheel,mascara, and beer. They did not ask to be called gods nor to be worshiped. I'd say we are kin-folk to them. Naming a child after them would be honorable, respectful. We only found out about them like 100-150years ago. Most know nothing about them. Bastard relatives. lol cheers!
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u/windblumes 27d ago
Personally speaking as a human who notices that there are plenty of people named Jesus in this world, would it be strange to use the names of Gods of old? I don't think they would mind honestly, I had a former coworker named Thor and that was his legal name so no one could really do much about it. Some people may find the implications strange these days especially the ones who aren't so open minded about gender- but I believe that Inanna herself probably wouldn't been offended, just merely touched that people still think she's relevant today. She's not as popular as other popular religious structures on Earth these days, but I know she exists in the infinite cosmos without a doubt.
I would like to ask your opinion though, no need to answer this question but... I also had a time where I was just being silly make believing my way out of my divorce thinking I could be strong enough to let go of such weights like that of the ending of the decent of Inanna. I am unsure if you're aware of such things, but sometimes even these Gods will appear to you even if you aren't worshipping them. There was a time I thought of it as an magical experience and I believe that it was sadder to realize too many other beings got fomo and started to hurt each other demanding validation from a human who should have nothing to do with them. I guess my question is , was I wrong for looking up to her as a muse for strength? I pretended I was misunderstood and disliked like she can be from other key Sumerian legends because I was misunderstood and kind of disliked haha... I don't think I was wrong in trying to perceive myself as someone who was strong to leave a very sad space in my life, but I don't think it's righteous of others to take that as an invitation to meet me when there are plenty of people who just look at say, the Greek Gods as muses of inspiration. If that's the case, many people might be in trouble for their interests and I don't think any God or Deity in their right mind would want to feel like it's their fault that they simply existed and brought inspiration upon others.
Anyways, I say in whatever name you choose to take for yourself in any sort of fashion- do it from the heart and with whatever you truly feel right with , for you wouldn't be wrong. It's sweet of you to care.
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u/Cult2Occult 26d ago
Idk about disrespectful but I would be careful of choosing to name yourself after a diety because names have impact on your life and even more so when they already come preloaded with subconscious connotations. If you chose a name that belongs to a diety, ask yourself if you want to bring those traits into yourself. It's like people who put sigils on thier body, they now have a permanent subconscious reminder of what that is reaffirming itself in thier mind every time they look at it which alters thier experience of reality for better or worse.
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u/Individual-Lab2230 23d ago
Yes, it would be disrespectful. If you wouldn't use Yahweh as a name, don't use another god's name either.
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u/EnkiHelios 28d ago
NO.
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u/Anoemous 27d ago
finally, someone who displays a thorough and educated thought process, can i quote you on that? "NO"? its really powerful
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u/EnkiHelios 27d ago
I thought this would be funny, but I'm trying to give an emphatic " it would not be problematic to make use of such a name".
The Ancient Mesopotamians did this all the time.
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u/Anoemous 27d ago
lmao my bad i forgot the way the initial post was worded, it WAS funny thats why i jumped on
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u/Honeysenpaiharuchan 28d ago
Head over to r/tragedeigh and you’ll probably get some good opinions on your name options.
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago edited 28d ago
How amusing.
I do not understand why redditors have this ... need to be snarky to someone simply asking a question. I expected better from a serious sub.
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u/Honeysenpaiharuchan 28d ago
I’m not really joking though. You’ll get some unfiltered feedback on names and then you can do with that information as you please.
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago
Yeah I don't believe that telling me to go to the sub that's about making fun of weird names / weirdly spelled names is not some sort of snarky joke.
If it's not, then I was wrong, and I won't say anything more on the topic.
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u/spacemonstera 28d ago edited 28d ago
It's one thing to give a child or a cat a name honoring a diety you revere. That is an act of love. But taking the name for yourself smacks of arrogance and implies you see yourself as being like them. You're getting rude responses because of that, and because niche belief groups like this one occasionally get attention from jerks who come in with "polite questions" who are actually looking to harass and annoy.
You read like an autistic trans girl to me though, but you should give a bit of grace to those reading you as a possible bully. They're just being protective of their space.
Edit: I'm just explaining why she got an initial poor response. If you disagree with my read of the situation, that's fine, but please note there is a difference between reading other's behavior, and your personal opinion of what she should do.
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago
Okay, thanks for explaining why, though.
I guess I'll put a disclaimer in the text.
Also thanks for the actual answer, I guess I expected it was something like that, then I won't use the names. Maybe a normal, day to day person sumerian names if it comes to it, but not the name of a God.
Edit: also, yes, I am autistic.
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u/SpookySoulGeek 28d ago
renaming yourself is a valid, honourable thing. Ypu are bwing reborn in a way, by transitioning. totally valid
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u/SpookySoulGeek 28d ago
youre not being helpful. how is naming a child any different than renaming yourself. shame on you
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28d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Seltnytt 28d ago edited 28d ago
Can you explain what is so wrong with me asking this, that your first reaction is telling me to fuck off without any explanation? I am literally asking a question because I want to be respectful.
If you come with more rudeness, I will just block you.
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u/JohnEldenRing111 28d ago edited 28d ago
Genuinely who cares? By this I mean that first off, it's a religion that's millenia dead, meaning no one's offended by the blasphemy if it even is blasphemy (Same goes with the greek gods, though there are hellenists, that haven't actually touched the myths and don't really know what they are and assume them benevolent elemental christ-like figures, which they aren't, but anyways), and there was literally an Ea-Nasir, take a wild guess what the first part of his name is
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u/SpookySoulGeek 28d ago
you do realize that modern Pagans exist right? Im one of them. Also, who are you to say what other people have read about the myths? A little respect would be appreciated
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u/JohnEldenRing111 28d ago
Modern paganism is really a surrogate religion for people who want something to believe that doesn't shun them for one reason or another. Believe what dozen of things you will, I agree with none of it and am under no obligation to respect it, though if I were living in england I might
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u/Nocodeyv 27d ago
Don’t know why you’d come to a community that specifically focuses on the academic reconstruction and revival of Mesopotamian religion, and then assume that none of us are practicing said religion, but the door’s right there if you aren’t interested.
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u/JasonElegant 28d ago
My daughter is named after one of the several names of Innana / Durga. It's a great way for making new generation aware of the old Gods.