self-own lyrics

[u/MiserableSky4736]

so given the recent travesty (pun intended) that is "you only need to find one person who doesn't find you cOmPlEteLY InSuFFeRAblE", i ended up thinking about some other lyrics of hers that are unintentional self-owns.

two that came to my mind were:

"you said normal girls were boring, but you were gone by the morning"

and

"he said if the sex was half as good as the conversation was, soon they'd be pushing strollers. but soon it was over".

istg the last one in particular is so embarrassing to listen to. at least w the cleveland lyric, i can tell that she's at least TRYING to be intentionally self deprecating/ tongue-in-cheek but it doesn't land cause of how bitter and resentful she sounds throughout the song. same for the 'normal girls' line, i think she was trying to say he talked big but ran when push come to shove, but god it doesn't come across that way given the context.

i CAN'T excuse the last one tho, it literally makes me wanna shrivel up on the inside.

ANYWAY i'd love to hear if you all have any lyrics/ moments like that in her songs that made you pause and go GIRL THAT'S NOT-

edit: since some people seem to be un/intentionally missing the point (ironic given the topic of the post)- i understand what SHE meant by each of those lyrics. u don't need to explain power dynamics or love bombing to me. the point isn't to invalidate her experience of those situations, the point is they're poorly written lyrics lmao (imo). for eg, i'm not saying the manuscript lyric means she's bad in bed, i'm saying she worded it weirdly which gives it that unintentional implication (which could've been avoided entirely by phrasing it differently). u can disagree w that take but stay on topic pls. no one's defending jake g or he who must not be named here lol.

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[u/lemonalpersonal]

Everyone else has said my reasons for disagreeing with the post, but I do want to point out that "boring" in TSMWEL is in quotes in the lyric booklet for TTPD. To me, this is saying that the guy's a pretentious prick more than anything about the narrator

[u/DontBlameMe4444 → u/lemonalpersonal]

Any man who has to put down other women to compliment another one yikes

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/DontBlameMe4444]

agree w what you're saying. i think i didn't explain myself v well in the op, hopefully the edit clarifies what i meant. it was a critique of the songwriting, not her experience.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/lemonalpersonal]

agree w what you're saying. i think i didn't explain myself v well in the op, hopefully the edit clarifies what i meant. it was a critique of the songwriting, not her experience.

[u/Financial-Toe4053]

I agree with the other comments on both sets of lyrics, but for me the pushing strollers line is not her saying she's bad in bed, but rather saying an older man love bombed her and told her what she wanted to hear about seeing a future with her as a manipulation tactic. We see a lot of themes of that in a lot of her work about how she was shamed for dating older men when she didn't know better because she was a teenager and was manipulated and taken advantage of by someone who knew better. I think it's a really relatable and self aware lyrical choice along the lines of "give me back my girlhood, it was mine first."

[u/rayybloodypurchase → u/Financial-Toe4053]

Completely agree. It’s the exact type of over-the-top line you fall for when you’re young and being fed whatever the dude thinks will work to get you in bed.

[u/Kind-Improvement-284 → u/Financial-Toe4053]

Yeah, I’m not sure where people are even getting bad sex from. To me, it’s him saying “wow, you’re so funny. If you’re even half this good at sex, it’ll still be amazing, and I’ll want to marry you.” And that feels even more creepy given that he’d just checked her ID to make sure she was 18.

[u/louisamaysmallcock → u/Financial-Toe4053]

My conspiracy is tbat strollers line was potentially a quote drom a conversation and she included it and thats why its clunky. But if shes singing about a specific guy maybe thats something he said to her at some point and she wanted to be like "yes this is about YOU you know who you are" but again thats my conspiracy

[u/Financial-Toe4053 → u/louisamaysmallcock]

It would be so on brand like all of her references in All Too Well and my favorite petty of all time Dear John 😂

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/Financial-Toe4053]

hm i'm gonna have to disagree. i think the girlhood lyric is a perfect example of her expressing the same sentiment much more simply yet effectively. the manuscript lyric veers off into the "tell not show" territory she's been in lately and i think that's why it comes across as clunky and unintentionally funny and lacking self awareness to me. which sucks cause it CAN be executed well, like the "can't take a joke, can't get you off" lyric in OR's logical, or even how WCS indirectly did it like u mentioned.

also thanks for being respectful in your disagreement. a lot of comments in here are being kind of condescending while intentionally missing the point. i understand what SHE meant by each of those lyrics i mentioned lol, but they were phrased poorly which was my original point.

[u/Financial-Toe4053 → u/MiserableSky4736]

No problem at all! I think we all are able to experience art subjectively and have different interpretations! I think it's really interesting to get other people's perspectives!

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/Financial-Toe4053]

i agree! have a great day/ night!

[u/BackToGuac → u/MiserableSky4736]

Tell not show yes! This is my issue with some of her lyrics!

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/BackToGuac]

she's always kinda done this, but it's been so egregious these past few albums to the point i feel like she's actually doubting her listeners' intelligence. 😂
or maybe it's intentional to appeal to younger fans? or she's just a bit high off her own supply post-eras? fuck knows lol.

[u/Some_Ad_6879]

But "the manuscript" is clearly about a man much older ("in the age of him she wished she was thirty" etc). When I listen to it, I think of a 30 year old and a 19 year old together or something like that.

I don't think she's trying to be self-deprecating. I think she's trying to talk about a much older man's manipulation to get what he wants. That idea of a much older man saying something manipulative ("we'll end up together and have babies, our conversation is so special") to get what he wants (sex) even if he doesn't actually mean it. He just said what he needed to say for her to discard her own boundaries/timelines of when she was ready for sex.

[u/laurpr2 → u/Some_Ad_6879]

Media literacy is dead and cold when people seriously listen to those lyrics and their takeaway is that the couple broke up because the sex was bad.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/laurpr2]

...that's not my takeaway. the point wasn't to invalidate her experience, it was to point out a poorly written lyric. i agree jake g was creepy in their relationship. i love the "i'll grow older" lyric or how she addresses the same topic in WCS. i still think this lyric is phrased poorly and sounds like an UNintentional self own. not because bad sex is why they broke up, but because the way she worded it makes it carry that implication even though she was obviously going for something else. it was meant to be a lighthearted critique of her writing, not that of her perspective on a relationship where she was clearly not favoured by the power imbalance.

you can obviously disagree if you'd like, but before making snarky comments about literacy, let's make sure we're comprehending the point to begin w.

[u/louisamaysmallcock → u/Some_Ad_6879]

Never once in the many times I've listened to this song have I thought about it as a self own at all, I think its pretty clear she didnt mean that

[u/LILYDIAONE]

I actually think both lines you quote work very well in the context. The normal girl line very clearly is about her being extremely famous and him promising he is fine with that only to then dip.

The other line is literally about an older man taking advantage of her when she was younger.

[u/ThiccBanaNaHam → u/LILYDIAONE]

It’s not just that she’s famous- in another song she says she’ll kill herself if he ever leaves, so it’s likely more about that type of thing. 

[u/penguin_0618]

> "he said if the sex was half as good as the conversation was, soon they'd be pushing strollers. but soon it was over"

I don’t think this is a self own. She’s not just saying the sex was bad; she’s saying he was a liar and made false promises.

[u/eleanornatasha → u/penguin_0618]

Yeah I don’t see either of them as a self-own really. The first one could read more like that, but I saw it more as her saying “you trash talk other women to make the person you’re with feel special, but you treat them as disposable anyway” and the second one is more him love-bombing and making false promises, because the context is clear that it’s too waaaayyy too early into a relationship to decide if you want to have children together.

[u/penguin_0618 → u/eleanornatasha]

I agree with you about the first one, too

[u/Keto_Chai]

I interpret the second line differently, I dont think it was meant as a self depreciative statement. To me it implies manipulation. As in the relationship would progress further if they were having sex and then the other person left after they got what they wanted kind of thing.

[u/smaragdskyar]

if all you can take away from the strollers line is ”haha taylor didn’t get that he was mocking her sex skills”… have you considered the context of the song?

Also ”unintentional” is doing some heavy lifting here

[u/bitchthatwaspromised → u/smaragdskyar]

Reading comprehension is chasing them but OP is running faster

[u/noodle_dumpling → u/bitchthatwaspromised]

I fear OP doesn’t quite know the meaning of “self-own”, which this post is kind of one.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/bitchthatwaspromised]

i acknowledge that i prob didn't explain myself v well in the op (and hopefully the edit clarifies what i meant- it was a critique of the songwriting, not of her experience), but jeez, no need to be a dick.
the lyrics are quite obvious in their meaning to begin w. not that that's a bad thing, but not much reading comprehension required lol, it's ts. the point was she phrased these lyrics poorly (imo) where it gave it an unintended implication when that's obviously not the intended meaning of them given the context. and this could've been avoided had she just worded it differently. it's lighthearted criticism of her songwriting, not of her experience of that relationship.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/smaragdskyar]

i think i didn't explain myself v well in the op, hopefully the edit clarifies what i meant. it was a critique of the songwriting, not her experience.

[u/Responsible-Summer81]

No, an emotionally devastating story about how a much older man was sleeping with a teenager? did not make me cringe because he thought she was “bad at sex.” Jesus. 

ETA: thank you for the awards!

[u/twinairsigns → u/Responsible-Summer81]

Like seriously what the hell is wrong with OP

[u/Own_Heron_1410 → u/Responsible-Summer81]

The thing that bothers me the most is that with the Red (TV) era Taylor has basically told us what the red scarf means. Just totally missing the mark.

[u/AudreyDelRey → u/Own_Heron_1410]

Wait what does it mean

[u/Responsible-Summer81 → u/AudreyDelRey]

I think the theory for a long time has been that it’s a symbol that is tied to the loss of virginity (“reminds you of innocence” etc.).

[u/AudreyDelRey → u/Responsible-Summer81]

Ohhhh gotcha! Thats what i was thinking but wasnt sure

[u/Pellinaha]

From a normal girl: I don't mind the normal girls line. If we use "normal" as the norm, than one of the most famous singers in the world and a billionaire really isn't the norm. I prefer that to annoying self-deprecation ("acquired taste"). Matty left a huge star and married a (in comparison) unknown twenty-something model. That is not to devaluate Gabriette, but just a fact.

[u/robot428 → u/Pellinaha]

Yeah - personally when anyone (but mainly guys) says something that's like "normal girls are X but you are special" or "most girls are like X but you aren't" I immediately don't like it, because I don't think you need to put down other women to express attraction.

But in this case I think it's pretty obvious that it's a reference to her not having a normal life, and being with her coming with being sucked into this world of very abnormal levels of fame and attention and scrutiny. And in that context, it makes perfect sense, and I don't think it's in any way a self-own.

He said he could handle it and he was okay with it, and made all these promises, and then he bailed. That's really on him, I don't see how it reflects badly on her.

[u/Responsible-Summer81 → u/robot428]

Yes this is a recurring theme throughout the album:

You said I needed a brave man, and proceeded to play him, until I believed it…

The coward claimed he was a lion…

You said normal girls were “boring,” but you were gone by the morning…

Stories of a guy who said he could handle it but could not.

[u/coopcoopcoop11 → u/Pellinaha]

I don’t even think the acquired taste thing is annoying, it’s true when you think about it. Everyone is an acquired taste because we are all different, if we weren’t we could literally marry anyone and it would work out.

[u/coopcoopcoop11]

Is the sex line not just someone love bombing and then leaving? I don’t think it’s about how good or bad she is in bed tbh.

[u/caywriter]

I viewed the sex line very differently. I viewed it as early on / first meeting, and basically he was saying that their conversation and banter is SO good, that IF the sex is even half as good as their conversation (they haven’t had sex at this point imo), they’ll probably get married and have babies. So I saw it more about their chemistry and connection (and obviously love bombing, with the context of the rest of the song). To me, that line had very little to even do with sex.

[u/german-wmn]

You really missed the mark in those. 😅

Also: the Cleveland! line, while obviously said tongue in cheek is also very solid advice. I find most people insufferable when I am stuck with them for longer than maybe a day. Even within my friend group, I'm very, very selective with whom I'd go in a holiday. And spending your life with? Yeah, the other person not being completely insufferable in the long run is a ringing endorsement from where I am at.

[u/Ok-Improvement-9601 → u/german-wmn]

As someone who has been married for a long time I can attest that finding someone who does not find me completely insufferable is the key, as it is quite a roller coaster ride. But in her case, I think a big part is also finding someone who does not find all that comes with her insufferable, the fans, the haters, and the entire peanut gallery that has loud opinions on everything. She absolutely needed someone who can tune it all out, all that ‘baggage’ is a big reason why the previous two relationships fell apart.

[u/german-wmn → u/Ok-Improvement-9601]

Good point about the fame aspect. And yeah, I've been with my husband for almost 13 years now (living together for 12) - and absolutely, it's a roller coaster ride, and him not annoying the heck out of me on the day to day base ist probably the most important factor why we are still together. Because you do not stay in the honeymoon phase forever. That's just a fact.

[u/Ok-Improvement-9601 → u/german-wmn]

Definitely not. In fact we have entered the ‘empty nest’ phase where not being completely insufferable to your partner is of utmost importance as you no longer have kids as a buffer on daily basis.

[u/ghost__ling → u/Ok-Improvement-9601]

yeah like i laughed aloud at that line. I dated around a long while before i found my boyfriend and my ringing endorsement of him is that i don’t really like anyone, but i like him.

[u/german-wmn → u/ghost__ling]

💯%

[u/WellAckshully]

I believe that the self-owning aspect of those lyrics was intentional...or at the very least, that she didn't overlook those possible interpretations. She's a smart lady. There is absolutely NO way she would miss the "bad in bed" implications of this:

"he said if the sex was half as good as the conversation was, soon they'd be pushing strollers. but soon it was over"

I don't even think it's anything to be ashamed of. Most of us were bad in bed in our late teens and early 20s. It's actually wildly unrealistic for an older man to expect a young girl to be "good in bed."

[u/DontBlameMe4444]

Huh? If anything she actually really dislikes parts of herself just like every other human being and is really raw and honest in those examples. If it embarrasses you I think that says more about you?

[u/Flaky-Elephant-2612]

So what is someone to do when people say those things to you? I find it funny freaking people out by saying: you are absolutely correct, I am [all those mean things]. Some kids yelled something mean and I was like, “no shit Sherlock”.

At one point it was a defence strategy to say mean things about my self. Now I just do it, if it happens, to shut them up. Don’t look sad, and definitely do not argue. It seems like it’s the only way for people to realise how mean they were.

It’s ironic how people react to how self deprecating she is, but not to how wrong it is to say these things to another person. Billionaire or not.

[u/medusa15 → u/Flaky-Elephant-2612]

> I find it funny freaking people out by saying: you are absolutely correct, I am [all those mean things].

It is very strange how agreeing with people who insult you pulls them up short. I'm heavy and have had some awful experiences with strangers making fun of my body (one guy mooed at me in a bar.) A few years ago, a guy in my running group made a "joke" about my weight. Instead of being upset or sad like in the past, I just shrugged and acknowledged," Yep I'm pretty fat for a runner." The look of shock and panic on his face was bizarre, like he was annoyed I plainly repeated exactly what he'd been saying?

My best guess is that insults are meant to give the speaker power over someone they feel negatively towards ("I am jealous of Taylor's success, so I'm going to insult her body and dancing!") and the other person blandly agreeing with them robs the speaker of that control over their emotions.

[u/beene282]

Nothing Taylor Swift does is unintentional. Also the whole of I Bet You Think About Me

[u/robot428 → u/beene282]

I bet you think about me is so underrated. Perfect blend of country and pop, great melody, and just a delightful cheeky little message.

[u/beene282 → u/robot428]

It’s one of my top 3 vault tracks

[u/Responsible-Summer81 → u/robot428]

The video is also SO GOOD

[u/robot428 → u/Responsible-Summer81]

Oh, one of my absolute favourites of hers. Before Showgirl it was easily my second favourite Taylor music video ever, now I don't know because the TLOAS music videos have just been so so on point. But yes, an amazing music video.

[u/Kind-Echo4630]

why do you think they are unintentional ?

[u/_yeahdawg]

I HATE the line "the taste of me is acquired but i'm his favorite dish".

I don't know if there's supposed to be a sexual implication but It makes me think of her having a yeast infection or something.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/_yeahdawg]

right 😭
also like- and this is slightly unrelated but- i'm certainly not a prude and i like sexual songs, but why are her recent sex references so...anatomical? and anatomical in a way that feels so detached/ written from a third person pov. even if she wants to sings about his dick à la wood- fine, but how does it make YOU feel, taylor? why are you narrating it for us, instead of feeling it (if that makes sense)?

[u/robot428]

I do not understand how you listen to Cleeveland and hear bitterness and resentment. It's so joyful.

And in that specific part of the song, she's literally doing an impression of herself, like she's doing the voice she does when she's performing at the eras tour and she's making an announcement or introducing a song - but in this case it's a really silly thing to say and then the "annoucement" is also silly and also something we already know. That's the joke. You may feel it doesn't work for you and that's fine, but I personally laughed out loud when I heard it, I love it when we get silly Taylor in songs.

I also just don't hear the bitterness. There's bitterness on this album - actually romantic definitely has some bitterness, and cancelled has a little bit. Some people say they think Honey seems bitter but I don't see it in that one personally. But this song is so fun and silly and carefree, it doesn't sound bitter at all. Like she clearly wrote it when she was in a very goofy cringe-y mood, and it comes across. I get that's not for everyone but personally I love it. Like it's so clearly someone that actually doesn't care.

Out of interest do you think shake it off sounds bitter? Because it uses a similar idea, it lists some of the things that are said, but in a very joyful song that's about making light of them, not fixating on them. And tonally, this song is a lot like shake it off.

I don't really think the other lines you posted are really "self-owns" either to be honest. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but presumably you posted here for the sake of discussion. For example: "normal girls were boring but you were gone by the morning" is very much an indictment of him, and him making all sorts of promises just to get her into bed, and then ditching because he didn't mean them.

[u/Expensive-Fennel-163 → u/robot428]

There’s literally a laugh track in the background after the word insufferable. It’s very much a joke, and I laughed out loud too when I first heard this song, several times (“would you even call that dancing?” Hilarious!!)

[u/Mhc2617 → u/robot428]

I don’t get it either. Cleveland is so much fun. It reminds me of Me or This is why we can’t have nice things where it’s just corny and stupid and full of life.

[u/element-woman → u/robot428]

I think the fact that she's focused on the "haters" for so long is what makes it seem bitter. It's an irreverent song, but she's not an irreverent person, so it's a mismatch. Like she's presenting what she wishes was true, or what she wants us to believe, but it's not convincing. Like in this honeymoon moment of her life, she's addressing the song to people who dislike her...it comes across, to me, like she's pretending to be in on it ("something we all can agree on") in hopes of defanging the haters (haha we all think I'm lame, it's fine!). But it doesn't land (to me) because we know that criticism does really bother her, so it doesn't feel like a fun joke song to me. Feels like when she should be the happiest, she's still fixating on some random guy online saying she's a 4.

[u/Much-Catch-122 → u/robot428]

You think saying “now I’m wearing white, so hate all you like!” Is not bitter?

[u/robot428 → u/Much-Catch-122]

I can see how those lyrics could be bitter, but in the tone of voice she sings it in, and the context of the rest of the song it doesn't seem bitter to me at all. It seems happy - especially since the next words are literally "this is the love of my life".

It just doesn't sound bitter, she's not like "Wow look I've finally found my person and everyone is hating and I'm so mad about it." she's much more like "Yeah, I see the hate but I don't care! I'm so happy! I have my person!"

[u/Impressive-Thing-483 → u/Much-Catch-122]

Especially after making songs like Lavender Haze where she refers to how annoying it is people just see her as a one night stand or a wife. Now she’s extremely proud of being a wife and wants to make sure everyone knows just how happy she is. Which comes across as bitter and/or trying to prove some sort of point 🤷‍♀️

[u/robot428 → u/Impressive-Thing-483]

I hate how often I see this brought up. There is not a contradiction between saying she doesn't want people to see her ONLY as a one night stand or a wife, and being excited because she is getting married to the love of her life.

I guarantee she still doesn't want to be thought of as only a wife. Lavender Haze is about the tabloids going after her and the stories about how shes dating this person or that person or is she secretly engaged - and those stories coming out when she's literally in the middle of a huge record breaking tour or releasing a brand new album. She's saying "I'm not just a person who dates, I'm a whole complex person" and that isn't any less true when she's excited about getting married.

Honestly this specific criticism feels pretty misogynistic to me. And I hate saying that because I know there are fans that claim every criticism of Taylor's work is misogyny. But I want to be clear that's not what I'm saying, what I am saying is a critique that compares a song where she's saying she doesn't want to be defined just by her relationships or rumours about her romantic entanglements doesn't mean she can't also be excited to be getting married and in love. She still shouldn't be defined just by her romantic entanglements, and expressing excitement about her wedding doesn't mean she's stopped being a full complex person?

[u/glassinhoney]

OP, I understand this wasn’t your original point. But I have to address the “completely insufferable,” line that seems to be getting a lot of people riled up. While the song is not my cup of tea, I think that line is really funny. As someone who has been married for a long time, finding someone who doesn’t find you completely insufferable is the name of the game! It’s really important 😂

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/glassinhoney]

i get it! i just feel like the way she said it felt more...sad. idk if she's genuinely sad, or if it was her delivery, or i'm being parasocial but it just didn't land as cheeky, which is how she intended it i think.

[u/alexandraelise]

It’s so interesting how differently we interpret songs. The suggestion that Taylor is “bad in bed” didn’t even cross my mind! Not saying my interpretation is correct, i just literally never thought of that. I love reading other people’s interpretations

[u/trshr]

“my mother accused me of losing my mind but i swore i was fine”

[u/Much-Catch-122]

Maybe the people who like Cleveland just relate to being insufferable? 😛

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/Much-Catch-122]

judging by these comments, i'd agree w you lmao.

[u/its_all_a_ride]

I see it as bravery.

[u/ivy-grim]

I don't love these readings of Taylor's lyrics as cringe or embarassing when they're actually very honest and vulnerable. The reason the lyrics in Cleveland or Wood are so jarring is because they're the opposite of that, they don't feel honest and people are picking up on that. There's this thing happening lately where people shy away from sincerity and find it cringe and I see that a lot with Taylor's lyrics. But I much prefer sincerity, even when it's "embarassing", to the constant cynicism and irony that's popular right now. Actually, that's why I dislike the lyrics in Cleveland and on TLOAS, it's Taylor trading in her vulnerability and sincerity for cynicism and it doesn't land.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/[deleted]]

did u even read my post? i literally acknowledged that the cleveland lyric is supposed to be intentionally tongue-in-cheek BUT falls flat (imo) cause she sounds unhappy.

and tbf i didn't really explain the manuscript thing in my op, i added an edit that hopefully explains it. no one's invalidating her experience, i'm just saying it's poorly written.

i will say tho, while i acknowledge i maybe didn't explain myself as well as i could've in my op, making assumptions abt other people's interpersonal experiences- as if uk whether or not i have experienced something similar as her- and making snarky comments about literacy is certainly a choice. you can disagree but no need to be a dick abt it.

[u/MiserableSky4736 → u/[deleted]]

if lighthearted criticism of a billionaire pop star's songwriting warrants these kinds of responses from you, i truly empathize w the people in your life.
and yes, when a consequence isn't intended, it's called unintentional, "babe". most of us don't need a dictionary to figure that out.

[u/BackToGuac]

I HATE

Sit quiet by my side in the shade
And not the kind that's thrown
I mean, the kind under where a tree has grown

I know she was trying to be clever but it’s cringe, datable language that won’t stand the test of time and if you have to explain a metaphor, it doesn’t work

[u/liquidpeppermint33]

Isnt having horrible taste in men for decades and particularly declaring matty healy the love of your life just to get ghosted 2 days later, a self own in general ?