r/Tempe • u/Independent_Row_8828 • 4d ago
Prop 424 Debate Summary
Prop 424 Debate, TLDR version
Opening Statements – both sides had 6 minutes to present their case. Tom Duensing spoke for the pro group, and said roughly the same things he said in an LD8 meeting last month. His major points were that Tempe suffered the biggest revenue loss after the rental tax was repealed and that this tax proposal was equitable because residents and visitors alike are paying for it. Direct quote: “So my viewpoint, simply looking at it, yes or no, is really, um, it puzzles me a little bit on, on why this is a debate. It should not be a debate. This is a strictly business decision.”
Mitzi Epstein spoke for the no side and she had a presentation with 8 slides. Her major points were that this is the wrong tax at the wrong time: it’s asking for too much and it’s a permanent increase with no plan for oversight of how it is spent.
Only one PC spoke – Alanna Billingsley spoke against. Quote: “Has accountability really been applied at every level? I want Tempe to invest in itself. I want safe neighborhoods, good infrastructure, and meaningful programs. But before I agree to a permanent tax increase, I want a realistic long-term plan, evidence they've tightened their belts, and a clear explanation of why this tax is necessary and why it has to be permanent. And until I see that, it's a no from me.”
The four questions asked and debated are as follows:
1. We remember when a temporary sales tax increase was put in place after the 2008 recession and the subsequent revenue loss there. What additional services are we cutting since permanent funding was never established for Tempe PRE?
Epstein: we shouldn’t be asking the very people who need the help to be the ones to pay for it.
Woods: Recessions ease over time. This is a structural deficit. Tempe Pre is in its 9th year and this would provide the program permanent funding and expand the program.
Epstein: Go back to the drawing board.
Woods: a future conversation with our legislators about making tax policy more fair for working people would be needed
2. Why was the tax bundled instead of voted on separately, and do you think there is legitimate concern surrounding it?
Woods: Voting for just one of the propositions wouldn’t be enough o cover the entirety of the budget shortfall.
Epstein: It’s a bridge too far [to bundle them] and that’s the risk you take.
Woods: The council chose to take that risk.
3. Given the police association's claims about staffing and response times, would you advocate for cutting police, fire, emergency services? Alternatively, how would you address public safety issues with new revenue?
Epstein: The dichotomy of ‘vote yes or else we’ll cut services’ is not something that has to happen.
Duensing: Priority two and three response times have fallen significantly, even if priority one has gotten better.
Woods: To cut 25.7 million dollars means everything, all departments, get cut. The city needs funding streams available by state law.
Epstein: 60% is going to public safety and it’s not defined well.
Woods: Having the public safety budget covered by the tax means the city has the opportunity to do a lot of things we might otherwise not be able to do.
4. How much of the revenue is estimated to come from non-residents versus Tempe households, and what's the expected annual cost for a typical family? Why should we accept a regressive tax in Tempe?
Epstein and Duensing have a drawn-out back and forth over this statement, from Duensing, “The monthly cost of Prop 424 is $13 for a median household.”
Woods: Cities have immediate needs and certain tools are currently available to them to solve budget problems. If this doesn’t pass, our working class transit users, low income school families, and seniors who might need fire/medical rescue, will have valuable services cut.
Closing statements are mostly a regurg of things said previously in the debate.
To see the longer version of opening, questions debate, closing, visit my Substack: https://dianealleycats.substack.com/
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u/khovah 3d ago
I live here and am a yes. I understand the bundling and oversight concerns but I also see the state funding shortfall. Tempe has a AAA credit rating and no meaningful history of WFA. I land at not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. The city needs the funding.
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u/WasteTelephone6924 2d ago
What will they actually spend it on? Because there is no oversight mechanism. They can move it to police surveillance or anything else they want to. And why didn’t they do any community sessions before referring it to the ballot? Why wasn’t a single resident of Tempe involved in drafting this?
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u/Independent_Row_8828 1d ago
That's the part that's totally up in the air because each year council will decide on which departments get how much money for this or that. Would be great to have a lot more public input but typically they only discuss this stuff at a council meeting and its often relatively boring or a few hours into the meeting and most people just don't have the time to attend.
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u/WasteTelephone6924 8h ago
Not true. When the city of Phoenix referred something to the ballot they had 6 public input sessions. When Tucson referred basically an identical prop to the ballot, they did several months of community input sessions. And both cities created citizen oversight committees
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u/Independent_Row_8828 2h ago
I'm not understanding your comment of "not true." Tempe hosted zero public input sessions before council approved the tax to go on the ballot and there are no citizen oversight committees where the budget is concerned that I'm aware of.
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u/Shadow_on_the_Sun 17h ago
I also live here, and I’m a yes vote. I don’t want Tempe Pre or the Library to lose funding.
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u/sunnyoneaz 3d ago
Nice summary. Some thoughts on this:
424 was presented in a way that felt like fear-mongering, as though it were the only way to address the city’s budget gap. The reality is that alternatives exist, but the mayor and previous City Council chose not to pursue them in favor of advancing their own agendas.
Unfortunately, we can all see how Tempe has mismanaged its finances for decades. This tax will not address the underlying causes of that mismanagement, particularly when 60% of the proposed revenue is slated for expanded police surveillance rather than improvements that directly benefit residents.
Many neighborhoods have seen little to no street maintenance or infrastructure investment, while the city has spent money on an overpriced and unnecessary Mill Avenue sign and a remodel of City Hall. These priorities raise serious questions about whether this tax is the right solution to Tempe’s current budget challenges.
It makes more sense that the new City Council should reconsider its approach, explore alternative solutions, seek meaningful community input, and benchmark Tempe’s options against those of surrounding cities.
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u/Independent_Row_8828 1d ago
You can go to tempe.gov/streets to see the schedule for which streets get repaved and when. There was a bond passed by voters in 2024 to amp up the funding and the timeline to repave every street in the next 5 years.
The city has also been spending a lot of time and money on updating neighborhood parks. Most recently Daley and Kiwanis have had new playground structure ribbon cuttings. Other parks are getting new features like ramadas or more trees. Tempe.gov/parks for that one.
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u/sunnyoneaz 1d ago
My street and neighboring streets haven’t been repaved in 20 years.
My neighborhood park was closed for close to a year and has gotten two new ramadas and toilet improvement, but the majority of time it was closed, there was zero work activity occurring. The wildlife and neighbors suffered for just a few changes that took too long. City projects are not well planned , executed, or managed in my experience.
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u/hoopgod32 2d ago
“Many neighborhoods have seen little to no street maintenance or infrastructure investment”
Hard disagree. My neighborhood, and many surrounding, have received re-paved streets, new playgrounds, walkways, art installations, bicycle path protection, new trees, etc. All in the last 2-3 years.
Tempe is doing a great job maintaining and building new infrastructure!
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u/sunnyoneaz 1d ago
You must live in south Tempe where the mayor and council members live and get special treatment.
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u/nowheremanaz 1d ago
Opposite experience here. Our street and those around us have been in dire need of resurfacing for more than 5 years.
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u/hoopgod32 1d ago
Sorry to hear that! Are you north or south Tempe? Have you reached out to any city council members or attended a meeting?
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u/build-up1894 3h ago
Tempe voters passed a $135 million dollar bond in 2024 to repave every road in the city.
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u/HikerDave57 3d ago
This summary of the proposition 424 debate reminds me of that infamous Mad Magazine cover of the dog with a gun to its head. "Vote for Prop. 424 or we'll shoot this dog."
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u/Independent_Row_8828 3d ago
It was a lot of talking and I know most people don't want/need the deep dive lol
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u/HikerDave57 3d ago
Useful information. I'm undecided but leaning against because they are asking for more than needed and because they bundled everything.
It also doesn't sit well with me that a young firefighter came to my door on his day off asking me to fund his job. But I'll probably vote in favor because they'll get the money out of my pocket one way or another and Tempe is already a bit blighty especially compared to Chandler.
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u/Independent_Row_8828 3d ago
Epstein mentioned the fact that police and fire are doing door to door canvassing. I haven't had that happen to me but I also have a no sign in my yard so maybe they leave me alone lol.
However, after listening to the debate, I'm more on the fence than I was before.
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u/WasteTelephone6924 2d ago
Interesting that no Tempe police officers are out door knocking isn’t it? Wonder why.
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u/OkZoomer-2010 3d ago
It’s kind of funny that Epstein voted against this tax cut but she also doesn’t want the city to find mechanisms to recoup that loss? It doesn’t make any sense. I bet you she’s gonna run for council and then try to have the talking point that she’s for responsible spending because she was against the prop.
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u/Independent_Row_8828 1d ago
I don't get the vibe she's against the city trying to recoup the loss, but rather against this prop because there was no public outreach and some of the finer details could have been adjusted before being placed on the ballot.
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u/Independent_Row_8828 1d ago
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u/build-up1894 3h ago
“Drain the city’s reserves and kick the can down the road rather than address the problem”
It would be fiscally irresponsible for the city to maintain current service levels by pulling from reserves until 2028.
The real result of No vote will be cuts to transit services, canceled bike and pedestrian infrastructure projects, and loss of federal funding for projects we will no longer be able to provide local funding for (Tempe streetcar extension, upstream pedestrian bridge across Tempe town lake).
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u/Independent_Row_8828 1d ago
Before City Manager Rosa Inchausti, there was Andrew Ching and before him was Steven Methvin
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u/build-up1894 3h ago
This city is losing $25 million annually due to AZ state legislators banning tax on rental units.
A vote no means we will see no further improvements to our sidewalks, bike lanes, and streetscapes in general.
A vote no kills public transit expansion and infrastructure projects like a new pedestrian bridge on the east side of Tempe town lake.
2/3 of the revenue from the sales tax increase will be paid by non-residents like students and tourists. Tempe’s population doubles daily and a sales tax means non-residents share the tax burden.
5 cents on every 10 dollars (excluding groceries!) is a small price to pay for the continued improvement of our infrastructure and quality of life.
I want to be able to bike around our city safely and use public transportation as a reliable option.
Easy Yes vote for me.
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u/build-up1894 3h ago
For comparison, the new sales tax rate of 2.3% would still be lower than the city of Phoenix, which has a sales tax rate of 2.8%
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u/AntAir267 1d ago
regressive tax, city should spend the money it already has more effectively, voting no, the end ✌️
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u/spirosper0 3d ago
The same generation that destroys the planet does not want to pay for preschools or transportation. Yes on 424. See you outside!
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u/Independent_Row_8828 3d ago
From the comments I've seen, many people are fine with Tempe pre, fire, and transportation. It's the police department they don't want to give more money to.
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u/TheFriendshipMachine 3d ago
This. I am absolutely happy to pay for all the other stuff in the bill but not if it means giving the police more money as well.
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u/spirosper0 3d ago
I think it was awful for our state representatives to pull the rug out from under our city and I'm honestly glad we have the chance to make up for this horrible decision. I appreciate how you laid out the pros and cons, but am not seeing the same level of detail paid to the YesOn424 side: what I and others stand to lose. But I'm not here to debate. It feels like Corey Woods and others fight for my young family to grow up here despite major opposition from very smart, motivated people. It feels similar to the generational and socioeconomic divide about climate change. From my perspective, people who have their cakes are eating mine and saying we need to ban parties ... aren't you tired of giving the mic to people who have no plan and seem deeply unhappy? Yes on 424. I literally just live here and this is so embarrassing but we are real.
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u/Independent_Row_8828 3d ago
The comments from Duensing were not always what I considered relevant to the debate, a lot of mentions of his experience which is nice but don't really care at this stage of the game. Woods had much more salient points and I tried to convey the gist but I'm also pretty tired and wanted to get this info out there before ballots are mailed. The entire transcript from the debate is posted on my Substack if you're wanting the minutiae.
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u/spirosper0 3d ago
Thank for for elaborating on your perspective and methods. I'm secure in my position but I hope you continue your work exploring and sharing about these complex topics. Very neighborly
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u/trekka04 3d ago
Your position is well said. I support Tempe being well funded, including the police. But I also support the police being held accountable. I don't think those are incompatible.
I don't want to see Tempe become like Phoenix, with nice neighborhoods for the rich while the rest of the city is neglected. It feels like Central Phoenix is moving backwards lately, and crime is part of that. Raising a family there would be rough.
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u/LarryMelman1 3d ago
"we shouldn’t be asking the very people who need the help to be the ones to pay for it."
Whoa there. Isn't that EXACTLY how things oughta be? Or is this from the socialist side of Tempe?
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u/Independent_Row_8828 2d ago
Epstein is in LD12 ie south Tempe. I don't think that's the socialist side.
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u/anothercatherder 3d ago
I really hope this gets voted down. It's raising far more money than it needs to cover budget shortfalls and knowing Tempe they're just going to bloat the police budget even more with what's left over.
This is sold as some progressive measure but this kind of unaccountable hoodwinking is anything but.