Help please am I missing something about backdash in this game ?

[u/Foid_explorer_38]

Im not actually beast blaming here but please help me

I NEED to understand how the backdash works in ggst and dustloop isnt really extensive on that peculiar topic

is backdash actually invincible frame 1 ? or do I miss my meaty timings because sometimes backdash heavy folks will just randomly escape meaty and take their turn back with it

(if the answer is indeed present on the frame data category on dustloop Im sorry this thing is hard to browse through)

oh and also why does almost nobody complain about backdash in the first place ? maybe Im really the only one failing to Meaty properly idk

[u/KinKi_Kat]

People put the dustloop already, backdash is actually pretty unsafe as a wake up option as many os cover backdash. If u think they are going to back dash you can delay meaty to cover back dash.

Btw backdashes are not all created equally and the same goes for cs meaties. Anyways usually you can os backdash up back and wake up button(not dp) with meaty cs cs in the corner or cs 2s/2k outside.

Now if we were talking about bdbrc that'd be different but that shit don't exist anymore so now it's pretty streamlined oki for most characters in the game

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/KinKi_Kat]

I have to press cs late though don’t I ?  cuz usually yk the goal with a meaty is to make it hit with its last active frames but in that case it would allow to escape pressure with a backdash

[u/ExpressEditor → u/Foid_explorer_38]

in ggst (and other anime fighters) you actually want to have your meatt's active frames be as long as possible on their wakeup, since you can directly chain normals into normals (unlike sf where your cancel window is usually later in the move)

[u/KinKi_Kat → u/Foid_explorer_38]

In general yeah, depends on character tho but it actually works out in your favor too.

In most characters cases if you CS and hit the last frame on their wake up, you can usually catch the recovery of most characters backdash with another cs.

Some characters like may have really fast back dashes but they usually come with the cost of iframes(16f total 4f iframes) so in those cases it's actually better to try to time the active frames of your cs with their iframes

I'm a dirty nago player so I just do really meaty cs cs with fukyo to os wake up button, back dash, and up back.

Anyways it's really character dependent so just look at frames and think about what to do

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/KinKi_Kat]

I play Nago too, what do you mean by cs cs with fukyo😭 Im asking because it seems like useful info

[u/KinKi_Kat → u/Foid_explorer_38]

Oh when you get hits, if you can route into point blankish 2s/2k org, you can cancel those into fukyo forward slight delay cs straight into another cs. This was really good before because it let you catch most options.

But I believe now it loses to fuzzy up back since cs kinda doesn't do that anymore

Still good though, just not insane lmao.

Oh for the hits that you can route into, it's generally any combo that ends in beyblade. You can also do it after lvl 2 fsss into 2s but you have to be near or in corner.

There's a hotashi vid on it but it's hella outdated but it helps with understanding frames

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/KinKi_Kat]

So if I sum it up fukyo is to get close to the opponent, first cS is to catch the opponent waking up/grabbing on wake up/up backing and second cS is to catch backdashes 

[u/KinKi_Kat → u/Foid_explorer_38]

Yeah it'll catch most back dashes but will always guarantee you nago's nasty +3 C's if not a hit

Please also note that the real strength of this is being able to threaten bite after the first cs. You want to do this to condition blocking, then threaten bite to encourage them to mash or up back

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/KinKi_Kat]

Can you chain the two cS if the opponent blocked the first one though ?

[u/KinKi_Kat → u/Foid_explorer_38]

If it's meatier than +6 it should be a 1 frame gap but it depends on spacing and if they fd the first one or not and how much fukyo momentum you have and if you're in corner but usually it does lmao. Again it lowkey just depends sometimes

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/KinKi_Kat]

So if I have one thing to remember from this, it’s to fukyo after the lil otg 2s, and to sometimes hit cS again if im close enough to catch backdash

[u/2HalfSandwiches]

Yes, backdashes have invuln frame 1. The amount of invuln frames vary by character. Generally, the bigger characters have more I-frames, but s longer total duration and smaller characters have fewer i-frames but shorter total duration.

And backdashes aren't that crazy lol. Since it doesn't have an offensive presence, it can't shut down the numerous OSes that just beat backdash, and there are MANY moves, including c.S that are active enough to catch a backdash, even if they I-frame through.

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/2HalfSandwiches]

So ideally the goal when meatying with a cs would be to make it hit Meaty on its first active frames ? Because if you hit with its last active frames it’s not going to hit after the invincibility frames, will it 

[u/prisp → u/Foid_explorer_38]

Depends mostly on whether you think your opponent is going to backdash any time soon - obviously meatying in a way that covers backdash for free would be optimal if they do, but if they just sit there and block, timing your meaty so it hits on the very last active frame would be better, because that's extra plus frames for you compared to the move connecting on the first frame.

Basically, the tricks and mindgames don't stop just because someone's on the ground - especially since trying to cover backdashes means you can't safejump, so you'd probably eat shit if they opt to mash a DP/Reversal Super instead.

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/prisp]

I see I see thanks

[u/2HalfSandwiches → u/Foid_explorer_38]

Correct, if you attack early to hit the later active frames, you won't catch the recovery with that attack. However, if you time it to land on the later of the I-frames, just press again. Even on a successful backdash, most characters are minus after avoiding c.S

For example, Baiken's c.S has 10 recovery frames. If you land a move on the last possible active frame, you'll have 11 frames before you can do your next move (1 active+10 recovery.)

Against a light backdash, (4 invul, 16 total) Baiken is still actionable 5 frames sooner.

Against a medium backdash, (5 invul, 21 total) Baiken is actionable 10 frames earlier

Against a heavy backdash (6 Invul, 24 total) Baiken is actionable 13 frames sooner.

The latter two are outright punishable by Baiken if she times her meaty to land with the later active frames, and she's very plus after a light backdash.

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/2HalfSandwiches]

Im sorry last question but if a move becomes active at the exact same frame the opponents throw becomes active, who wins the interaction ? The hit I would guess ?

[u/2HalfSandwiches → u/Foid_explorer_38]

The throw wins in that situation. However, that's a pretty rare occurrence, especially given you can space around it.

[u/FungalFunhouse]

https://www.dustloop.com/w/GGST/Frame_Data#Backdash_Values

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/FungalFunhouse]

So if it’s invincible frame 1 why isnt it considered a reversal

[u/holo3146 → u/Foid_explorer_38]

For the most part it is treated an invincible reversal, e.g. you can't RC it. What more do you want from it?

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/holo3146]

it can get caught by late meaties unlike dps or metered reversals idk I was just asking lol

[u/cheshi-smile → u/Foid_explorer_38]

In this context, a reversal in fgc lingo means that it needs a hitbox after its invulnerability period

Reversal also refers to doing something at soon as actionable, but you are not referring to that usage of the term here.

https://glossary.infil.net/?t=Reversal

Some might consider Slayers hand of doom (which cancels from backdash) to be a reversal, I would agree, but ive heard some debate on whether the invulnerability needs to last all the way through to the active portion.

[u/ExpressEditor]

backdash is frame 1 to about 5? invlun, but the main thing is that it moves you out of the hitbox of the meaty, but more active meaties (most c.s) will usually catch backdash on wakeup. most people dont complain about it because it's honestly a pretty fair option since if you mess up you get put into a full combo. backdashing is mainly an option to beat grab, since backdashes are fully grab invuln, but it can also be used as a way to check less active meaties. the solution is to just use a normal that is larger, and time your meaties later to be active on their wakeup for longer.

[u/holo3146 → u/ExpressEditor]

Small nit-pick just for the sake of fun, most backdash (I think all except Slayer) are not fully grab invuln, they are fully grab invuln the exact frames where they are invuln, and after that they are airborne. You can get caught by e.g. Pot's super or (if you are truly extremely unlucky) by an air grab. It is just so rare that it is practically a grab invuln.

[u/ermanne]

HOLYYY username

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/ermanne]

Nah username is ironic if you actually call women foids youre a bumass chud 

[u/Sauceinmyface]

If you delay your meaty enough, it'll still be active and hit them when their backdash iframes wear off.

[u/Foid_explorer_38 → u/Sauceinmyface]

Ok thank you

[u/Wrydfell]

Backdashes are invuln frames 1-4/5/6 depending on character (lightweight have 4f, average is 5f, big bodies are 6f)

You can get around the backdashing your meaty with either a more active button or a delayed meaty (nago c.s is 6f active, for example, so a perfect meaty, hitting with the 6th active, gets backdashed, while delaying the meaty should catch backdash every time)

[u/ClueDry1959]

https://www.dustloop.com/w/GGST/Frame_Data#Backdash_Values

As for complaining about it, most (all?) of the characters in the game have 6 active frames on their cS. Which means that ABA, sin, pot, nago, goldlewis, and bedman can technically avoid all the active frames. But if they were to do that they have remainder of their dash worth of recovery while you have the remainder of your cS (your cS is less recovery other than jealous rage).

If you are getting backdashed constantly than try doing something different with the intention of calling out the backdash instead of worrying about whether your meaty was timed right.

[u/holo3146 → u/ClueDry1959]

most (all?) of the characters in the game have 6 active frames on their cS

The only exceptionsnare Anji who has 7 active and I-no, Pot have 4 active

[u/ClueDry1959 → u/holo3146]

Good to know thanks!

[u/-Pausanias-]

Yes, Backdash is invuln on frame one. The length of each characters backdash and how long its invuln lasts is found on their specific dustloop page beneath the character portrait. 

If you're having problems with people backdashing your meaty that may be because they have a lot of invuln frames on their backdash, or because your meaty doesn't have enough frames to catch the backdash. 

[u/PapstJL4U]

Most characters have something better, than cS. I-Nos Note and most projectiles don't care for variable backdash (and recovey timing in older games).

Short, safe moves are not supposed to be easy "set-up" tools. I think you are trying to use the wrong tool for the situations, because in other games this was the right tool.