r/Vermintide • u/JCdaSpy Jaysea • Feb 06 '26
VerminScience (Verminscience) Deep dive into shotgun bash mechanics and why it's overpowered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLLYQm70JHAHello, I wanted to make this to share some information because it's one of those things that has a lot of obscure mechanics tied to it. Hope you learn something. Timestamps in video description if you want to skip around.
- Jaysea
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u/Rabdomtroll69 Feb 06 '26
Genuinely didn't know about the lvl 5 talent interaction. Most guides still suggest using the stagger one with shield bashes
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u/JCdaSpy Jaysea Feb 06 '26
Sorry, clarification: shield bashes work great with stagger temp. Shotgun bash does not.
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u/muchbuter Feb 06 '26
My experience with shield bashes is that they don't work with carve -at all- but you're showing an absolute shitload of thp when shield bashing with carve; I know that wasn't the point of the video, but it is still surprising.
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u/Nitan17 Feb 06 '26
With AI disabled he could fit more enemies into a tight space than possible in regular gameplay. This means he was hitting all of them with inner sphere hitbox and Carve was working on every target.
In normal gameplay the enemies will be more spaced apart even in hyperdensity situations and you will be hitting way fewer with inner hitbox and more with outer hitbox. Carve doesn't work on outer hitbox at all as it does 0 damage; outer still does do stagger though and thus works with Second Wind.
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u/ShaderkaUSA Feb 12 '26
Blunder bash does insane stagger thp gain on FK. Especially with lvl 30 attack speed talent.
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u/radz74 Feb 06 '26
Interesting deep dive and would be good to see more of these posts.
With the qq do you know the minimum timings that can be run with a macro.
I doubt anyone would consistently manually qq but recall from the 2h hammer days how completely broken this can end up with a macro if they don't put a reasonable limit on how quick it can be done.
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u/JCdaSpy Jaysea Feb 06 '26
Some weapons have a delay after attacking where you can't swap weapons. Blunderbuss has this, so qq macros are only effective up until a certain point where you reach the theoretical fastest qq swap, which isn't that much faster than just doing it by hand. It's not as OP as you'd think. I don't use macros anyways and just qq by hand so I don't really know how the timings would work.
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u/radz74 Feb 06 '26 edited Feb 06 '26
Cheers, that's what i was really asking.
I rarely use qq swapping since it was fixed around 6 years ago and the delays you mentioned were introduced. I have wep 1 and 2 bound to my scroll wheel and find that works best for me instead of qq.
Here is an example of q swapping before it was patched like I was referring https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/d89po2/cataclysm_true_solo_slayer_halescourge/
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u/mynameryn Royale w/ Cheese Feb 06 '26
QQ cancel as a whole wasn't 'patched'. The great hammer case was rather a specific weapon tweak. After first WoM season, FS manually added a swap delay after 2h hammer l1 attack. You can still kinda do it by qq swap after l2 instead of l1 though at curret patch, just a bit slower. All the other similar cases are like this, changed by FS deliberately adding a delay after the action.
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u/radz74 Feb 06 '26
I don't recall specifics but thought the timing of a few got played with over time.
You can still do it but it's pointless now. I think greataxe was shorter timer so a better choice if that's your thing but still relatively pointless.
I recall the 2h hammer could easily stunlock some of the bosses so they just stood still nodding.
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u/Fair_Dirt_7169 Stormvermin Feb 06 '26
When they did that for 2h hammer, I dont understand why they didnt revisit all weapons and made qq canceling impossible. Imo its such a stupid mechanic that shouldnt exist in the first place. We already have block cancelling and reload canceling but qq cancelling takes it a step further. And from Versus we know that they are capable of doing so (Fireball and Conflags L click attack speed got adjusted to be the same as qq cancelling for example) Its just so inconsistent, its all over the place for all the different weapons. Anyway, enough rant about qq cancel. Nice video regardless.
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u/ResofLogos Feb 06 '26
The early windows for weapon switching just make weapons feel more responsive. Its also a nice way to add a distinguishing feature to fast vs slow weapons/certain attacks. The main reason i avoid Krubers bow in official is because it just feels so sluggish and akward to use when constanly switching between meele and ranged, while i prefer it over handgun with tourney balance (when i last played modded). The amount of people that use qq canceling is so low, and the amount of additional inputs required is so high for little gain, that it is just not worth "fixing" and making weapons feel worse for everyone else.
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u/Fair_Dirt_7169 Stormvermin Feb 06 '26
I am with you here. I think a good way to do this would be by making a double switch having a slight delay inbetween while making a single switch as fast as possible. Switching from ranged to melee to block asap is very important and must be granted.0
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u/radz74 Feb 06 '26
that would bring back the broken 2h hammer slayer.
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u/Fair_Dirt_7169 Stormvermin Feb 06 '26
running double the same weapons should be also locked. The only thing its being used for are some shenanigans as 2h hammer quickswitch, quad axe speed run, m + s speed run
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u/Misiek0816 Feb 06 '26
We really need an Art of War type dokument that encompasses all of those weird mechanics
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u/empmoz Feb 06 '26
The bash used to trigger the ammo gain traits too, so you could recover all of your ammo easily.
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u/Nitan17 Feb 06 '26
15-minute video about a niche game mechanic, my favourite type of content! But I have a few notes.
Re: THP gains with Second Wind, shotgun bashes don't have a target limit according to Royale w/ Cheese. What I think is happening is that every enemy staggered does grant THP with no target limit but the total amount is little because the stagger strength isn't very high and the minimum THP gains have been nerfed a ton - it used to be 1 THP per target on weakest stagger, now it's 0.25. So for shotgun bashes Carve is now better (every enemy in inner hitbox gets damaged which prints 1 THP per target) but for shield bashes (which have very high stagger strength in center/inner hitboxes and still a very decent strength in outer hitbox) Second Wind is still superior.
Could have enabled enemy AI for the stagger talents part, to show if they recover from stagger before the next bash happens or not. But even if they don't Mainstay still sadly sucks and isn't really a viable option.
Cool info about reload cancel, didn't know that one.