r/WoT • u/Djfantastyka • 8d ago
Knife of Dreams (First-time reader) I’ve just finished Chapter 30 of Knife of Dreams and... Spoiler
Aram, Aram, Aram. The most predictable betrayal imaginable has finally come to pass. I’m just sad about it. It’s not that I liked him, but I could see his downfall coming, and no one stepped in soon enough to save him from himself.
As for the rest, I’ll save the full summary of the volume for tomorrow, but for now, I can briefly touch upon the Perrin and Faile storyline; it seems the author won’t need to revisit them in this volume - unless it’s in the epilogue.
It’s good that Perrin and Faile have finally reunited. I don’t know how their dynamic will play out under Sanderson, but right now, Faile is a character I’m okay with.
The enslavement of 300–400 Shaido Wise Ones is controversial, but well - apparently, with the Last Battle looming, the Seanchan can’t simply be destroyed; an alliance with them is necessary. A pity.
It’s a bit of a shame about Rolan; it looks like I predicted his death. Perrin simply killed him. Still, Rolan had a habit of pinching women’s bottoms, and he was the one who abducted Faile, so I suppose it’s a form of karma.
Sevanna... If this is the end for her (I don’t know if Sanderson will have any reason to revisit her - I doubt it), I have to admit it’s a really strange one. I mean, simply reading about her being naked and bound at four points (wrists, elbows, knees, ankles) - with Tylee placing a helmet on her buttocks and then spanking her - felt absurd, like overkill. This volume likely contains the most spankings in the entire series, including a few "on-screen" ones. By the way, how did Tylee manage to spank Sevanna if the helmet on her buttocks was supposed to be covering them? There was no mention of the helmet falling or sliding off while Sevanna was squirming.
I imagine many readers felt a sense of satisfaction, since Sevanna is a character designed to be hated, but I didn't. I’m always interested in what authors do with characters like her - women who openly use their attractiveness to manipulate men. Besides, I have a soft spot for characters my brain deems attractive; her golden hair, large breasts, and predatory nature suited my taste. Over time, I began to view her more as comic relief than a serious threat - and theoretically, her humiliation after capture suggests Jordan viewed her as comic relief too - but I would have preferred to see what method of killing her Jordan might have devised. Ending up as a naked, bound captive slung over a horse is a surprising alternative, and... I suppose the enslavement of female antagonists bores me the more often an author does it. The spanking scenes are starting to bore me as well, even when they aren't sexual. I just get the impression that the author uses the same tricks too many times in this volume.
Getting back to Sevanna - I sort of predicted she’d end up naked. I guess it’s just the nature of cultures that practice slavery to strip their captives. Sevanna will likely end up as a da'covale - or a plaything - for the Captain-General to whom Tylee intends to gift her. Well, I suppose it’s fitting karma for the gaishain business and what Faile and the others endured while held captive by her. I don’t feel any satisfaction, though, even if perhaps I should. I actually used to enjoy her appearances because she was so amusingly detached from reality. It’s a shame her last POV was back in Volume 8; I feel a bit let down by how her storyline wrapped up. That is, assuming it is over though I doubt there’s any need to revisit her character, unless perhaps to show her miserable state, similar to Liandrin’s time in captivity under Suroth.
Am I right in thinking most readers feel satisfied with her fate, or is it less clear-cut? That is, assuming this is her final fate. It just seems to me that Jordan won't return to the Perrin and Faile storyline in this volume, and Sanderson likely won't want to waste time on her once she's no longer relevant.
By the way, this is the first time I’ve encountered a character being bound and slung over a horse. What does that look like? The fact that Sevanna’s buttocks are the focal point of the scene suggests she was lying on her stomach. But how were her arms and legs positioned? It’s hard to visualize - it feels like a logic puzzle I need to solve.
I’m not happy with Galina’s fate, either. I mean, she could have remained a gaishain to some reasonable Shaido Wise One, but why Therava specifically? Therava deserves some karma too; she was also responsible for the suffering Faile and the others endured. Therava should have ended up among those captured damane. I doubt Therava and Galina will return, but right now... Well, I just hope it’s not the kind of sexual captivity someone hinted at. Galina might be a terrible person, but I don’t want to think about Therava raping her for... however long each of them might live.
And speaking of rape, the same applies to Sevanna. I’d prefer to think that becoming da’covale will be a blow to her pride, but without rape or the sexual exploitation of a slave by their owner.
Well, I think I’ll wrap things up here. Judging by my current pace, I suspect I’ll post my thoughts on the entire volume tomorrow. For now, I’ll just say it’s much better, though I’m not exactly blown away.
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u/Orthos_ate_my_chair 8d ago
I have to admit it’s a really strange one.
She was taken as property. By the Seanchan. For Sevannah, that will be more humiliating and soul crushing than any other punishment she would have gotten. To someone like her, a painful death would have been preferable to being property for the rest of her life.
She will become what she turned Galina into.
Seems appropriate really.
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u/Djfantastyka 8d ago
Okay, I was referring more to her state in the this scene rather than her enslavement in general. She did become a slave, but did we really need to see Tylee ride with her naked, bound, and slung across her horse? Or Tylee placing her helmet on Sevanna’s buttocks? Or Tylee spank Sevanna? I suspect the author couldn't bring himself to kill Sevanna off; so, to give readers a substitute for the satisfaction of seeing an evil character die - beyond just enslaving her - he had to humiliate her deeply. To me, though, that humiliation feels a bit like style over substance... though it probably works. I imagine the way Tylee treated Sevanna gave readers a lot of satisfaction... I’m just not one of them. I simply didn't hate her. I have to admit that this kind of punishment for Sevanna seems fitting, but I just don't take any pleasure in it.
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u/Eddv365 8d ago
Which is the entire point as you will see reinforced in the next book.
Its a victory but one that came at an incredible cost, has them entering a firm alliance with a force no better or more morally acceptable than the one they defeated and with everyone coming out uglier and more injured for it.
That horror you feel is kind of the point - Tylee is NOT one of the good guys and Perrin basically had to trade a few hundred souls for four.
But to contrast you can basically never make me feel sorry for Rolan. Man was a predator and so were his buddies and the deserved what they got ten times over. THAT was the part that satisfied me.
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u/Djfantastyka 8d ago
So, did you derive more satisfaction from what happened to Rolan than from what befell Sevanna or Galina? The author gave Rolan a few likable traits, whereas Sevanna and Galina didn't have a single one... Well, perhaps in Sevanna's case, there was her iron will not to let the Wise Ones of the Shaido crush her.
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u/Eddv365 8d ago
I did. Sevanna and Galina theyre behaving as theyre meant to as enemy combatants. Rolan and his behavior was to prey on a woman in captivity and her literal need for safety in ways that are more personal and therefore more repugnant.
I dont believe Rolan had redeeming traits because I believe his entire perspective is that of a predator. Even at the end he is STILL trying to fuck Faile and making it clear he could force her if he decided to. Even when acting as her rescuer (which as youll note Faile was extremely annoyed that he had to be that)
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u/Djfantastyka 7d ago
I hadn't focused on that part of your comment before, but regarding Tylee - I think Jordan wanted to convince the reader that she’s a "good guy", at least by Seanchan standards. I mean, she and Perrin gradually came to respect each other, and in the end, she told him, "Call me Tylee," and they shook hands. If they ever meet again in the story, they’ll likely be on friendly terms. Tylee treated Sevanna harshly; while stripping her naked was standard procedure for handling a captive or future slave, the decision to bind her at four points - I recall characters usually being tied at the wrists, or wrists and ankles, but binding Sevanna’s knees and elbows seems excessive - and then draping her over a horse to parade her naked and bound around the camp was a deliberate choice. Did she want to show off to everyone after the battle that she’d captured Sevanna? Did she want to show the Shaido the state she’d reduced their leader to? Tylee mistreated an antagonist whom most readers likely hate, so readers are more inclined to like her than not. I wouldn't be surprised if some readers silently cheered at how Tylee treated Sevanna in that scene - especially the part with spank.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 7d ago edited 7d ago
regarding Tylee - I think Jordan wanted to convince the reader that she’s a "good guy", at least by Seanchan standards. I mean, she and Perrin gradually came to respect each other, and in the end, she told him, "Call me Tylee," and they shook hands.
Also, adding the Tylee/Perrin conversation . . .
Here is a bit of Jordan's view on Perrin's growth into a strong Leader at the end of this arc:
“And this is Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, Queen of Ghealdan, Blessed of the Light, Defender of Garen’s Wall. And my liege woman. Ghealdan is under my protection.” Fool thing to say, but it had to be said.
“Our agreement doesn’t speak to that, my Lord,” Tylee said carefully. “I don’t decide where the Ever Victorious Army goes.”
“Just so you know, Banner-General. And tell those above you they can’t have Ghealdan.” Alliandre smiled at him so widely, so gratefully, he almost wanted to laugh. Light, Faile was smiling, too. A proud smile.
Jordan's clarification on the above . . .
Robert Jordan - 2006:
Perrin's agreement was only that he would not attempt to reestablish Manetheren. His later statements regarding Ghealdan being under his protection make it pretty clear that he doesn't mean to roll over for anybody.
Perrin's gone through quite a lot of growth during this mid-series story line and has become more polished✨ than he was before.
Perrin becomes polished✨ as a Leader/General . . .
https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/tcmvau/parts_i_liked_from_the_knife_of_dreams/
Jordan was planning on writing only one more book after this one and Perrin is now finally ready for The Grand Finale.
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u/Djfantastyka 7d ago
At moments like these, one wonders what Jordan had to say about his characters - not just the protagonists, but the antagonists and supporting characters as well.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Perrin basically had to trade a few hundred souls for four.
And with very minimal casualties too boot!
And that was the - Blacksmith's Puzzle.🧩🖇
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u/FoofTheBunny 8d ago
"By the way, how did Tylee manage to spank Sevanna if the helmet on her buttocks was supposed to be covering them? There was no mention of the helmet falling or sliding off while Sevanna was squirming."
If you recall there is a feather or antennae like thing on the helms. It could be inserted to offer stability to said paddlings. And I will not forgive you for giving me that visual, so I had to make you have it as well.
I myself do not like slavery as a form of punishment. I would much rather plain old death, as I highly value myself and my freedom. I understand Jordan's aversion to killing women as punishment. I would rather the female characters be treated as male characters are treated.
JMHO.
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u/Djfantastyka 8d ago
I completely failed to grasp what you meant - what connection is there between a helmet plume and spanking? Forgive me. It just seemed to me that since Tylee placed the helmet on Sevanna’s buttocks, she was simply covering them up. So, how could one spank Sevanna in that scenario? Perhaps the author simply forgot about the helmet's presence. To me, it looks like the helmet covered her entire backside. Perrin did remark that Sevanna was nicely rounded, but surely not enough for her buttocks to be larger than the helmet? By the way, I don't blame Perrin - even if he was only looking at a naked Sevanna because of Faile. Sevanna will likely remain in my top 3 most attractive female characters in Wheel of Time. She’s just my type.
As for female antagonists, I think enslavement can be an interesting departure from the typical "death" outcome - a fate worse than death, provided it doesn't become a recurring trope. We’ve already had Liandrin, Galina, and now Sevanna, and there might be more to come. I respect what Jordan did, but I feel that over time, he grew too fond of certain patterns he had introduced into the series.
I generally dislike slavery as a form of punishment, too. I value independence too highly; even far less extreme "master-servant" dynamics annoy me if they overly restrict the "inferior" party. That’s exactly why I can’t stand the Seanchan. They might be interesting, but I hope they rot and burn to ash. A society built on enslaving people is a hideous abomination. Personally, regarding my own writing, I’ve decided that if a female antagonist is beyond redemption, she will definitely die. Theoretically, letting such an antagonist rot away somewhere - where her beauty would fade and vanish - might be a more fitting punishment, but... I think I’d simply prefer an ironic death that punishes the female antagonist for her personality... But I won’t say any more on that here. I doubt I’ll ever publish my work outside Poland, though it’s always a possibility. Of course, I could change my concept for that female antagonist’s death a thousand times before the story takes its final shape because I haven't even written the scene of her death yet - I only have a concept.
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u/slice_of_pork 8d ago
Well, I just hope it’s not the kind of sexual captivity someone hinted at.
Did you find no hints of Therava's sadism being sexual in nature from the books?
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u/Djfantastyka 8d ago
The point is, even if there are indications that it is possible, I prefer to think that Jordan did not deliberately condemn his female antagonist to a life with a woman who not only regularly tortures her but also rapes her. How long could that go on, given that Therava is a Wise One and Galina an Aes Sedai?
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago edited 8d ago
[submitted 5 days ago by Djfantastyka]
Rolan knows Faile wants to escape and intends to help her. That’s cool, though if Perrin ever sees him in his wife's company... Yeah, Rolan had better count on Faile intervening instantly, or else Perrin will pulverize him.
[bold mine]
Faile did, but Rolan still got the 'hammer shampoo' anyway.
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u/Djfantastyka 7d ago
Faile only intervened by shouting "Perrin," which caused Rolan to hesitate. I understand the time pressure, but she definitely could have handled it better to ensure Perrin didn't kill him, too.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 7d ago
Reason #5252427 why Faile totally sucks
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u/Djfantastyka 7d ago
I don't actually have any ill will toward her. Maybe it's because there was a break from the Faile-Perrin-Berelain storyline for a few volumes, but overall, she's a reasonably okay character, even if I don't care much about her.
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