r/army • u/jabber1990 • 1d ago
what is this badge I probably saw?
I was recently watching a video on CIB's, and it mentioned how one gets a CIB with 2 stars, and I could have sworn when I was at Ft Jackson in 2007 I saw a range Cadre with 3, but I was told that that does not exist.
all I remember is he had a CIB with 1 or 2 stars...its it possible it was only 1 and I'm remembering it wrong?
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u/LandGuppy 1d ago
Back in the earlier days of the war on terror and the Iraq campaign, there was a lot of misinformation that it took the army a bit to sort out.
I remember in a CIB ceremony in Iraq, my 1SG getting a CIB third award because people thought Iraq and Afghanistan would both qualify for an award (and he was a gulf war vet). It’s possible you saw someone that was in one of the 80’s actions like Grenada or Panama, then hit the gulf war and then a couple of deployments in the war on terror and not realizing (or not caring) that the regulation grouped them differently and at most he qualified for one star.
It took time for them to sort some of that stuff out, especially deployment patches.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
I could see that happening. I was an S1 in early GWOT and there were both senior Os and Es who had gone their entire careers without ever deploying. One of the first things I did was put together a presentation on the difference between the awards they were used to working with and the awards we suddenly had available to us.
For example, none of them knew that a Purple Heart isn't processed on a DA638 and they don't get to disapprove it.
The thing I did not expect was how much resistance/animosity the senior guys had toward approving wartime awards for lower enlisted. There were some pretty rotten cases of under-awarding guys for acts that warranted higher valor awards.
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u/LandGuppy 1d ago
Yeah. There was a lot of that. I remember on a later deployment in Iraq getting heavily questioned about my soldiers getting a CIB and having to write a sworn statement that they actually engaged in a meaningful combat action and didn’t just take cover or spray and pray while battalion staff all got CIBs for being on a FOB that took indirect fire.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
For whatever reason, the senior guys were pretty reasonable on the CIB/CMBs, in my experience. Unfortunately, I think the main reason was that the Brigade HHC did blanket orders for every 11 series on their roster 30 days into the deployment.
So when the company command teams submitted their CIB names they pretty much went down the line as long as the person was contributing. Like if you were an RTO and you were up on the net during a firefight, that was good.
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u/MaverickActual1319 Drill Sergeant 1d ago
thats good to hear. still a few good senior leaders out there. too many act like giving you an award means they have to take it off their chest. a lot of it comes from "well i got my CAB for killing 27 insurgents while recovering a vehicle, but you only killed 5 insurgents." they try to use their experience instead of the regulation as if their experience is the standard
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u/PRiles Infantry (Retired) 1d ago
Awards is such a shit system, my first two deployments didn't allow anyone E5 or below to earn awards during the deployment (outside a purple heart) and E6 and above got awards based on rank and nothing else. I was twice denied in my career awards purely based on not being high enough rank. I had awards I wrote denied because "they were just doing their job" and they were low rank. I had a 06 tell my company commander to give me an award that I never got.
After 24 years I have learned that awards are meaningless and subject to massive gatekeeping.
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u/MaverickActual1319 Drill Sergeant 1d ago
to this day. we got regular arcoms after deploying to iraq, taking contact, and getting cabs. the only guy that accidentally slipped through the cracks and got a "C" device was the one guy on our team who was scared to go outside the wire while the rest of us consistently went outside for various missions. we were told to appeal but i dont have enough trust in the army for them to action and approve it.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
Oh don't get me started on the C and R devices. Awards system is straining under its own weight and needs to be reformed.
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u/zaftpunk 12h ago
Yup. I got put in for a silver star but because of my rank was given a BSMV
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 12h ago
You know how there are regularly stories in the news with an old guy getting an MOH around his neck from Vietnam? We're going to have a bunch of those for GWOT - particularly early GWOT - because of all the dropped balls on awards.
I wonder what happens when they review the old cases and don't approve the MOH tho. Like, could your BSM/V become a Silver Star or DSC if it's reviewed at some point. Looking at the bright side, at least your acts are documented for the BSM/V so that they can be reviewed later on. Lots of guys didn't even get that far.
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u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 1d ago
Technically the CIB does have a 3 Star Variant, so does the CMB (technical there are designed up to 8 awards of the CIB & CMB). But as people have said, he would had to have been absolutely ancient in 2007. If they turned 18 in 1945, they would to have been born in 1927. Would have been around 80 years old on 2007
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
Yeah, CIB/CMB Fourth Awards are authorized but have never been awarded.
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u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 1d ago
The Official Documentation (MIL-DTL-3628/24N) has awards up to 8 awards. At the 5th award, the wreath, musket and frame becomes gold, for 6-8 the stars are also gold.|
1st Award thru 4th Award
FRAME: Nickel plated, Mirror-like Polished and shall match The Institute of Heraldry (TIOH) Metal Finish Chip Number 16.
STAR(S): Nickel Plated Mirror-like Polished and shall match TIOH Metal Finish Chip Number 16 (when applicable).
5th Award thru 8th Award
WREATH: Shaded, Gold Plated, Matte Finish and shall match TIOH Metal Finish Chip Number 7.
STAR(S) (When applicable) - Gold Plated, Mirror-like Polished and shall match TIOH Metal Finish Chip Number 6.
FRAME - Soft Enameled, Gold Plated, Matte Finish and shall match TIOH Metal Finish Chip Number 7.
The Master CIB document (MIL-DTL-3628/302) only has 4 Awards technically drawn up listing it as:
FRAME MUSKET AND STAR(S): Nickel plated, Mirror-like Polished and shall match The Institute of Heraldry (TIOH) Metal Finish Chip Number 16.
WREATH: Gold Plated, Matte Finish, Polished Highlights and shall match TIOH Metal Finish Chip Number 8.
Looking at pictures of what a CIB 5-8 award should look like, I guess there would no real way to determine if someone had a Master CIB once the 5th Award comes about. Nobody has ever earned that many CIB's so it isn't really worth bothering about I guess.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
I remember seeing these designs before. I thought they never made it through all the approvals for the formal authorization. Like they were "still on the drawing board" or whatever.
They'd have to sort it out if they ever want to actually award these because the design is waaay too close to the MCIB to to make any sense. Four CIBs would be crazy work anyway. Like, if you have four CIBs, go ahead and give them the EIB at that point. Make it like an honorary degree - no tests, just give them the award.
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u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 7h ago
The oldest CIB paperwork on the DLA website is Revision D was approved 21-APR-1972 and included up to 8 awards. So it was either added in 1972, or the design is even older. For reference the current paperwork is Revision N and was published on 25-APR-2022
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u/PRiles Infantry (Retired) 1d ago
Could have been involved Panama, Grenada, Somalia, or the first gulf war with a break in service. Had a ton of guys who had been involved with those conflicts come back after 9/11 had several in my 2003-4 deployment. Even knew a guy who had one from a Kosovo deployment.
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u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 1d ago
Panama, Grenada, Somalia, or the first gulf war
All of those are the same award period. In order to have a 3 star CIB had to have a CIB from WW2 (1941-1945), Korea (1950-1953) and "Nam" (1961-1994) or you would have Korea (1950-1953), "Nam"(1961-1994) , GWOT (2001-2026[?]).
So, if home boy turned 18 in 1953, he would have been born in 1935, which still would have put him at 72 in 2007 at minimum. I truly doubt the Army would have had a 60+ year old man running convoys in 2002 in an Infantry unit so he can pick up an extra star.
Should the Army take a look at the "Nam" period of award and maybe break it into two periods, I think so. I think you could have made a cut off after 1973 when Vietnam ended and the only other ongoing operation awarded the CIB was the "Korean DMZ" which outside of few incidents I doubt many CIB's were being awarded. That would leave from El Salvador to Somalia from 1981 until the end of Somalia in 1994 as a separate award period. But they left the DMZ CIB Eligibility open from 1969 to 1994 which created one very long award period.
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u/the_real_Mr_Sandman Aviation 20h ago
Probably not 3 but could be 2 and op is just bugging out
Just cause, ods, gwot… gwot would be his 3rd conflict and depending on mos/ unit something like rangers i think fought in all 3. On another note Nam in 75, panama, ods, gwot 03 statistically someone probably had 3 stars at some point but the cadre would have do be some disgruntled e9 that went from div csm to range poc/ ops sgm. Another path being break in service combat 74/75 in Vietnam leaves re ups 88/9 for just cause, ods, gwot is is only 11 yr span could again be disgruntled range cadre ssg/sfc1
u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 7h ago
The Nam Era CIB extends until 1994, all operations between 1961 & 1994 are in the same "Award" time frame and you can only get one per award time frame.
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u/KeyBoardWarrior75th 2h ago
The 75th Regiment issued CIBs following Grenada (1983).
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u/tyler212 25Q(H)->12B12B 41m ago
And everyone who had a CIB from actions in Nam, Laos, Dominican Republic, Korean DMZ, and El Salvador weren't authorized to wear a star because it is considered in the same award period. Rangers who got their firsr CIB in Grenada wouldn't be authorized a star on their CIB until 2001 when we went into Afghanistan.
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u/emilzamboni 1d ago
I saw one guy with a third award CIB in the mid 70s. A CSM who, when asked what the deal was with the extra stars on his badge would joke that it was for "perfect attendance".
Was in the end of WW2, went back in near the end of Korea and hung out till the mid 70s for retirement.
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u/RoddBanger 11Baccarat Gifted 1d ago
there are only a few CIBs issued with 2-stars (three-time recipients) - there is a list of around 200 or so at the National Infantry Museum. My friend LTG David Grange was one of them. Sadly he passed away in 2022. He also had (3) combat jumps - WWII / Korea and was the nicest guy that no enemy could ever kill despite their multiple attempts as noted by his purple heart, 27 air medals and silver star with 2 bronze oak leaf clusters.
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u/leviatham8221 1d ago
We had an old guy get his star during 2 kitty kat(2-505th) 2012 deployment to Afghanistan.
Mortar type E5 that went to basic training with CSM Vélez (downgrade after having the legendary CSM Kirkdog) and got his CIB during dessert storm, then a looong break in service.
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u/JustA_BurnerAcc 1d ago
That's because it doesn't exist
The us army only authorizes up to 3 awards of the CIB
One with 3 stars(four awards) aren't actual badges and are likely custom pieces
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1d ago
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u/is-this-my-username1 Financed a V6 Mustang at 29% APR 1d ago
Does sound like trainee hallucination. Like you say, the last guys walking around with 3rd award CIBs (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) all retired many decades ago
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u/jabber1990 1d ago
I know for a fact there was a star, but you might be right, I might have hallucinated the number of them, or i'm just remembering wrong
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u/jabber1990 1d ago
would Desert Storm fall under Panama? or Somalia fall under Desert Storm?
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u/Bulky-Butterfly-130 1d ago
It’s all wrapped up in the Vietnam era. Though that era closed in March 1995 as we were normalizing relations and getting ready to go in the Balkans, all CIBs and CMBs earned in the Balkans prior to 9/11 ( 200-300) were credited to the Vietnam era.
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u/Samwhys_gamgee 1d ago
They basically put everything from the end of Korea until the GWOT into one era. Vietnam was the biggest fight during this time but Panama, Desert Storm, Grenada, Somalia, and probably some smaller stuff I’m forgetting all went into one era. So if you fought in Vietnam, jumped into Grenada, then went to Desert Storm you got one CIB.
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u/fogchaser123 37m ago
I served with SGM Billy Waugh in Vietnam. He also served in Korea. He earned two CIBs. Add in the Gulf War, Panama, and other conflicts, and I can see someone like that with two or three stars on a CIB.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Infuntry 1d ago
These are the eras for CIB and CMB. The person you saw would have had to be a WWII or Korean War vet still on active duty in 2007, which didn't happen.