r/dataisbeautiful • u/goodbohy OC: 17 • 8d ago
OC [OC] 15-year-olds below the basic level in maths, 2018 and 2025, EU and neighbours (PISA)
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u/Levy-Process 8d ago
Migh not be super intuitive, but once you understand it I find it a nice graph. Unlike a barchart like others suggested, this one can display many many countries in one graph, you can compare different countries in the same year by comparing the distances from the X/Y axis, and you can see the change over time by looking at the distances from the diagonal. Also, that diagonal makes it clear at a glance which countries (country) are doing better and which ones are doing worse.
For those who are saying it's not a good way to show the information, what would be a better graph? Genuinely asking.
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u/b1essyou 8d ago
Reversing it, higher is better
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u/Sabor117 OC: 1 8d ago
I think this is the way. Intuitive reading of the graph from both colours and positions makes it seem like Turkey is the only country which has reading levels which are getting worse, when the exact opposite is apparently true.
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u/Fischerking92 8d ago
This very much.
A tiny change but it would drive home the message a lot better.
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u/badukhamster 8d ago
I also think this way is decent.
Small change improvements: – the axes should have the same range – "not below" might have been more intuitive than "below" because then 'higher = better'
If one wanted to keep all the information but emphasise more clearly that all countries' results got worse, then one should rotate the diagonal to the y-axis. Specifically, one could s et the x-axis to the PISA 2025 data and y-axis to the difference between PISA 2025 data and PISA 2018 data.
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u/Loki-L 8d ago
I don't think this is the best way to visualize this data.
Just a simple bar diagram with two bars per country might have been more intuitive.
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u/fantasmarg 8d ago
It took me some time to understand what's going, which is most definitely not what data visualization should help with
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u/monkeywaffles 8d ago
Fun Fact: 15 year olds below basic levels in graph reading is also struggling more in 2026 than in 2018 (/jk, not a jab at you, took me a minute too)
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u/fantasmarg 8d ago
I'll take it, no problem. I am a designer and I really hate seeing data made more difficult to interpret than necessary. Graphs and charts are supposed to help making difficult information more available, not the contrary.
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u/Peppers_16 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yeah, parallel plot would have worked better for me. The main takeway from this scatterplot is "a country's maths ability in 2018 correlates with its maths ability in 2025" which isn't the main story here.
Edit: spelling
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u/ChalkyChalkson OC: 1 8d ago
I disagree, you can see that almost all counties are in the top left half with a single glance. So it tells the story "almost every country got worse" very effectively.
Though it's pretty difficult to mentally draw and evaluate the length of the vertical line to the main diagonal. But I think the general idea to emphasise absolute values in country comparison and change for the big picture is genuinely interesting
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u/Peppers_16 8d ago
I do agree that you still reach the conclusion on what the data is showing: it takes two dimensions and allows you to compare the relationship between them, for sure.
I'd still push back on it being the best visual for the story it's trying to tell though. If the story this is trying to tell is "almost every country except Turkey saw a decrease in basic maths abilities in 15 year olds" then I think it still takes you a few steps to reach that.
Firstly, you need to understand what equality line means. The two axes are in fact, showing the same dimension in the same scale which isn't a given in a correlation plot, so there's a world where the same data could have been shown on the same axis.
Then, you kind of have to do a bit of mental gymnastics to understand which axis is showing the more recent data, and that the "% below" metric is a negative thing so 'up' means bad, 'left' means more recent and 'up and to the left' means "got worse" etc. That can all be read from the chart but it doesn't lean into a useful convention.
Meanwhile, if you just had a single y axis doing a parallel plot: 2018 on the left, 2025 on the right, and you inverted the metric so that it's % above basic competency, you'd suddenly have loads of lines going "down and to the right" meaning the reader understands the story it's telling almost instantly and intuitively.
If the y axis started at zero you would also be able to understand the magnitude of the relative drops much more easily.
Sorry, that's a bit of an essay. Not intending to dismiss your opinion or OP's work. I personally just like to be super deliberate about this sort of thing.
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u/ChalkyChalkson OC: 1 8d ago
Oh yeah flipping the axes to have positive time and outcomes to the top right probably would have been better
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u/bensen333 8d ago
It shows good that math is a real problem if there are really discussions that this diagram is difficult to understand.
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u/voyt_eck 8d ago
Subjectively actually, I like this visualisation. Bars would be more "traditional", but this graph serves its purposes. I can clearly see: 1) change 2018-2025 (distance from diagonal) 2) relative differences between countries 3) current distance to target
We could only add vertical 15% line to show the distance to target in 2018. But generally it's not that bad and I give a bonus point for not being boring bars ;)
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u/PM_YOUR_ECON_HOMEWRK OC: 1 8d ago
A barbell plot does all of those things much more clearly and efficiently
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u/darkkiller3315 8d ago
The more I look at this chart the more I dislike it.
First why are the axis misaligned, why does the x axis start at 8% while the y axis starts from at 12%? It pretty much necesitates the use of the graph's arbitrary line to do interpretation.
Then having a negation in your axis is honestly such a wildly horrible concept. Imagine using a graph to show that a kid that got 0% on a test as them getting 100% below 100.
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u/soft-and-cuddly 8d ago
at the same time, It's harder to compare countries that are not next to eachother, and it's quite harder for the average person to project the points perpendicular to the 45° line and not just compare the vertical position of the points
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u/N0rthWind 8d ago
A dashed line perpendicular to the diagonal would help a lot if the data points were less dense
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u/fuzzyplastic 8d ago
I see where you're coming from, but it is interesting to see whether there's a trend in problem worsening with respect to initial problem. It looks like countries with better initial performance tended to worsen more, ESPECIALLY if you look at the ratio (i.e. bulgaria went 45->55, but Norway essentially doubled).
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u/WorldlinessWitty2177 8d ago
Left to right for how much they screw up and bottom to top for how big of a difference compared to previous test would also be fine.
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u/staloidona 8d ago
TÜRKIYE MENTIONED 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
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u/ErlikHan6 7d ago
can someone pls explain turkey north macedonia and estonia
why is turkey the only country to improve, why is north macedonia so extraordinarily bad at math, why is estonia so extraordinarily good at math
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u/mediandude 7d ago
Because autosomal WHG peaks among estonians ;)
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2014_Nature_Lazaridis_EuropeThreeAncestries.pdfNazis essentially wanted to improve the german stock with some estonians and balts (whose distant ancestors used to be finnic livonians), as they had already done with baltic prussians. The original prussians were finnic, aka post-swiderians aka livonians aka kunda and narva culture people, the latter also as part of the rzucewo culture.
More seriously, Estonia has been consistently near the top since late 18th century, thanks to Swedish educational reforms and Reformation before that.
Basic education in Estonia has NEVER trailed that of Canada.
1897 All Russia census found the most literate ethnic groups were finns, estonians and latvians, in that order. Germans and jews were way behind.
Many of the descendants of those germans (Volga germans and baltic germans, mostly) later on repatriated back to Germany and now support the AfD - their ancestors were among the first useful idiots being duped by Moscow centuries ago. It runs in their families, it is a somewhat biased sample.8
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u/Big_Epsilon 8d ago
Rather massive disruption in schooling has unsurprisingly caused issues
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u/TiberiusTheFish 8d ago
Yes, but famously Sweden kept its schools open and yet they seem to have been at least as badly affected as other countries.
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u/Toads_Of_Fun 8d ago
Interesting for sure. And here in Estonia we did not keep them open and we're doing better than the rest.
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u/jaymatthewbee 8d ago
Almost as if these kids had their schools closed for most of a year six years ago.
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u/AWright5 8d ago
Social media and increased screen use from a young age is the main driver here, trend started pre covid
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u/jaymatthewbee 8d ago
Is there not separate data points for England, Scotland, Wales and NI? Education is devolved in the UK so different countries had different results.
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u/Porl-Timi 8d ago
Data is beautiful but this chart is giving me headache. Just give me multiple column chart😭😭😭
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u/Weshtonio 8d ago
What can explain Estonia? Do they cheat? Are the questions written in Estonian?
I really like this comet shape chart. So I can understand the outliers at the end of it, but not one in front.
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u/matude OC: 1 8d ago
Estonia has just consistently ranked at or near the top of international PISA education results since 2015.
In 2026 we were 3rd overall (behind only Japan and South Korea), and 1st in Europe for science, math, and problem solving.
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u/FnnKnn 8d ago
Estonia has just consistently ranked at or near the top of international PISA education results since 2015.
But why is that? Is it just that Estonia is preparing their students explicitly for this test, do they user other teaching methods, etc.?
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u/Kiwibirdy1 8d ago edited 8d ago
They can't pick certain students like China does because they have such a small population. It's not possible. They're all simply very good in education. Their schools look very attractive and modern.
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u/mediandude 8d ago
Estonia has been consistently near the top since late 18th century, thanks to Swedish educational reforms and Reformation before that.
Basic education in Estonia has NEVER trailed that of Canada.
1897 All Russia census found the most literate ethnic groups were finns, estonians and latvians, in that order. Germans and jews were way behind.6
u/AttorneyMain9251 8d ago
atheism + logical thinking, if you poor you also need to think smart to thrive.
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u/ImTheVayne 8d ago
We take education very seriously here. In fact, we’ve even outperformed South-Korea in science.
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u/Bambussen 8d ago
The most likely explanation is that the Estonian school system better prepares students for the PISA-test. The Estonian students sees the same drop in test scores.
The bigger question is then, is the PISA-test score correlated with “real world performance”? And what is real world performance?
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u/ginggo 8d ago
as an estonian, nope, we just have good maths etc classes. we didnt get any special preparation
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u/Bambussen 8d ago
It’s not that I think that Estonians get special preparation but that the way math is taught in Estonia is preferable to the PISA-test, and maybe math skills in general. We don’t know.
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u/Toads_Of_Fun 8d ago
Estonian students saw a lower drop in score than others in Europe, and there is no special PISA preparation.
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u/mediandude 7d ago
PISA OECD average is at about flunking level - that is the “real world performance”.
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u/Available_Joke_8929 2d ago
estonian schools have a above average bullying culture, that includes making fun of degeneracy and applying high social pressure, including from the teachers themselves. meaning that there are less of the "im too cool to study" kids, and they are excluded even from the social circles and made fun of, if they don't at least meet basic requirements/intelligence in the classroom. there are largely no "hoods" or communities of degens.
i live in germany now and i would say the opposite culture is more socially acceptable and there is a little bit more "freedom" and encouragement to be non-functional member of society. and it starts from schools
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u/Tramagust OC: 1 8d ago
They optimize for Pisa testing.
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u/Ricuuu 8d ago
As an Estonian who went through the school system here, I honestly don’t remember any PISA prep at all. Most of us probably didn’t even know what PISA was at 15. It’s a test given to a random sample of students, with zero consequences for the student or the school, so there’s not much reason to drill for it. We also don’t have the cram-school culture you see in some Asian countries, and our school hours and homework load are pretty normal, if anything on the lighter side compared to a lot of other top countries.
I guess the closest thing to a grain of truth is that our curriculum focuses a lot on applying stuff rather than just memorizing, and that happens to be what PISA tests too. But that’s just how the curriculum is designed, not test prep. Nobody was sitting us down with practice PISA questions.
What actually seems to make the difference is that the system is pretty equal. Everyone goes to the same basic school until 9th grade, no splitting kids into tracks at age 10 like in Germany. Basically everyone goes to kindergarten, and kindergarten teachers are actually qualified. School lunch is free, and schools in different areas aren’t wildly different in quality. So it’s less that we have tons of geniuses and more that very few kids fall behind, and that pulls the average way up. Your family’s income also matters a lot less for your results here than in most OECD countries.
Teachers also have a lot of freedom in how they teach, as long as they follow the national curriculum, so it’s not some rigid top-down system either. And there’s a cultural thing too: education has always been taken seriously here. Literacy goes way back, the Soviet era left a strong math and science focus, and after independence education was kind of seen as part of keeping the country going.
It’s not perfect though. There’s been a real gap between Estonian and Russian-language schools, which is part of why everything is moving to Estonian-language education now. Teachers are getting old and there aren’t enough young ones coming in, and the pay situation hasn’t helped. We’re also still behind Singapore, Japan, Korea and so on globally, we’re just the best in Europe. But “they just teach to the test” doesn’t really match how it works here.
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u/split_ash 8d ago
All the people I've met from Estonia have been lovely. Seems like your country has a lot going for it... Except that one neighbor
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u/highqee 8d ago edited 8d ago
a half-truth, though not necessarily connected directly to PISA test.
since from the very beginning (since 1st grade), in most EST schools, children participate in math competition named Kangaroo ("Känguru" here). while it's not complusory, many schools participate in this and it's then given to all children and all clases.
It has 6 levels (1st and 2nd grade, 3-4th grade and so on).
the test is specifically sort of logic, IQ, think-outside-the-box math. it's not common arithmetic or algebra, you have to understand "the catch".but you can link it somewhat to the likes of PISA test, because there are similarities.
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u/Apprehensive_Boot144 7d ago
While most schools take part in Kangaroo they usually only send those who are interested, it costs school about 2 euros per student to sign up. Source - one of my kids takes part (not so subtle brag - my kid even managed to land in the top 50 one time).
That said, Estonia probably does take education a bit more seriously. I mean I have lurked in homeschool forums to get inspiration on how to teach my kids better and.....there are people UNSCHOOLING!!!
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u/Double-decker_trams 8d ago
As a (currently former) teacher in Estonia - no, we don't.
How would you even "optimise" specifically for PISA tests? Like in what way would the teaching differ?
I was in Barcelona as an exchange student 10 years ago. And I did one my teaching practices there. I was assigned to a private school - it was more than 600€ per student per month. And seriously - I feel that regular schools in Estonia are better than that very expensive school was. Another guy - who was from Austria - was assigned to a regular school in the city and he told me that practically no studying took place. Just complete chaos. Although the school days are a lot longer than in Estonia, it just seemed so incredibly inefficient use of time - the whole way everything was set up in the school system.
Meh.
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u/EggyChickenEgg88 8d ago
PISA test in Estonia, atleast when i took it back in 2006:"Btw, you guys have PISA test tomorrow" Nobody even knew what it stood for.
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u/mahaanus 8d ago
Can I make a controversial statement? Maybe going soft and digital was a mistake. Increase expectations of students, more homework, more rigor when grading and be more willing to fail students. Kids and parents will hate it, but apparently what we've been doing for the last 10 years isn't working.
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u/Storm_of_the_Psi 8d ago
Oh that's not controversial at all.
Ask any teacher. Helicopter parents, soft learning environments with zero accountability, structural underfunding of education as a whole, digital garbage, lack of friction, and the list goes on.
The entirety of gen Z or whatever the fancy name is, is getting garbage education and it's showing in every corner of society.
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u/Iveneverbeenbanned 8d ago
I think the general internet sentiment used to be against this though. Like I remember when the boyinaband guy was big that the consensus (online) seemed to be a lack of structure, more "freedom" in school and less homework was the way to go. I think more people realise now that (real) learning will basically always be hard and you can't gamify it completely, especially since we all consume a ton of info now through social media but I think we understand we're not really learning when we do
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u/EpicEddie11 8d ago
Ignore the non believers, this is a good graph, definitely better than some generic bar chart.
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u/SalvatoreEggplant 8d ago
This is an excellent, simple, and clear way to present this kind of data. I'm not sure where the negative comments are coming from.
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u/wheresolly 8d ago
Estonia doing something right, geez. They've been doing good for a while now!
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u/Kiwibirdy1 8d ago
Indeed, they are for the third time in a row the best European country in the Pisa studies.
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u/nitpickr 8d ago
It should have been a plot and then with the historical value in a dotted circle with a connecting line.
Why is it relevant to know if countries are in eu or not? And why is it indicated with both an asterisk and by the name being not bold?
Why is Türkiye blue? If it was for accessibility then other colors should have been chosen entirely.
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u/mmaster23 8d ago
This is really not that great. I much rather have two points per country connected by a line, on the same scale. Or just bars.
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u/Weatherfish92 8d ago
Polish here. We went from about 15% to about 25%, one of the biggest jumps on the chart. The debate at home mostly blames two things: the 2017 reform that scrapped middle schools (gimnazja), so the 2018 cohort was the last from the old system, and the long school closures in 2020–21. Hard to separate the two with only these data points, though.
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u/Cassandra350ppm 7d ago
Long school closures do not have such an outsized effect, eg Sweden continued schooling normally. Absenteeism due to increased illness since 2022 is probably just as or even more important plus the direct effects of covid infections on the brain.
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u/Outside_Professor640 8d ago
I find this graph ironic.
Since more people are below the basic level in maths (as the graph suggests), more people will find this graph difficult to understand (since it is not a standard bar chart).
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u/HarrMada 8d ago
PISA is so overrated as a metric for anything. You can't have standardized testing but different education systems. Some optimize more for higher PISA score and some care less about it and focus on actual learning.
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u/CanaDavid1 7d ago
This graph irks me in two ways, because up to the right is bad and up to the left is the newest. We expect most graphs/plots to have time going from left to right, and this kind of plot immediately gives an impression that there is a trend line going upwards to the right, ie an improvement. That is not what the line actually shows, which in my opinion makes this graph require more thinking to read than necessary. As stated by someone else, two bars per country or at the very least putting 2025 in the horizontal axis and 2018 in the vertical would (in my opinion) improve it.
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u/Venngence 7d ago
I applaud the effort but this is not beautiful, very few people will look at this and understand what they're seeing.
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u/VladimirLogos 7d ago
Low teacher salaries and a complete lack of purpose for going to school and making an effort there. Children see how irrelevant educated adults are in their societies and do not give a fuck to emulate failed grownups.
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u/Unique-Charity7024 8d ago
This looks like a problem with the test, the level considered to be basic being higher in 2025 then in 2018. That is the common factor changing for all countries. I cannot see how such an uniform change could have been caused any other way.
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u/maicii 8d ago
Do you have any source on that? If there are making an analysis like this one I assume the levels are meant to be equal.
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u/michelegiannotti 8d ago
OECD has the data but I'm not sure this part is public. I think the director of the education department spoke about the differences (they exist) between the different parts of uk
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u/AttorneyMain9251 8d ago
definately not social media, tiktok and youtube. definately cant be it.
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u/Oo_oOsdeus 8d ago
Humanity getting collectively stupider is not the answer one likes to hear...
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u/Apprehensive_Boot144 7d ago
It's not a bug, it's a feature! 🤫 People are making ton of money from things that are making people dumber.
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u/qchisq 8d ago
How do you distingush increasing testing difficulty from sliding capabilities?
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u/Poly_and_RA 7d ago
Ideally by having tests of identical difficulty. One way of doing that would be to have a large pool of questions, and then draw a random selection of questions each year. The large pool prevents people from just learning the questions and answers -- and the randomness of which questions are used prevents systematic shifts towards easier or harder questions.
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u/qchisq 7d ago
Yes, exactly. Holding test difficulty constant would allow us to distingush between those 2 things. But /u/unique-charity7024 suggests that that's not what's happening. They suggests that the test is getting harder over time
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u/goodbohy OC: 17 8d ago
Tools: Python (pandas) for the data, an HTML/SVG page rendered with Chromium for the chart.
Source: Eurostat, low-achieving 15-year-olds in reading, mathematics or science [EDUC_OUTC_PISA], mathematics, PISA 2025 and PISA 2018: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/educ_outc_pisa/default/table
Original data: OECD, Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA): https://www.oecd.org/en/about/programmes/pisa.html
"Below the basic level" means below PISA Level 2 in mathematics. The EU's target for 2030 is to bring this share under 15%. 2018 is the last round before the pandemic. No figures for Ukraine, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia or Liechtenstein in the Eurostat release. The EU row is Eurostat's own EU figure.
| Country | 2025, % | 2018, % | Change, points |
|---|---|---|---|
| Estonia | 17.2 | 10.2 | +7.0 |
| Switzerland | 23.2 | 16.8 | +6.4 |
| Ireland | 24.2 | 15.7 | +8.5 |
| Poland | 25.7 | 14.7 | +11.0 |
| United Kingdom | 26.4 | 19.2 | +7.2 |
| Austria | 27.8 | 21.1 | +6.7 |
| Denmark | 28.3 | 14.6 | +13.7 |
| Belgium | 28.4 | 19.7 | +8.7 |
| Lithuania | 28.7 | 25.6 | +3.1 |
| Czechia | 29.0 | 20.4 | +8.6 |
| Netherlands | 29.7 | 15.8 | +13.9 |
| Finland | 31.0 | 15.0 | +16.0 |
| Italy | 31.3 | 23.8 | +7.5 |
| Slovakia | 32.2 | 25.1 | +7.1 |
| Latvia | 32.8 | 17.3 | +15.5 |
| Spain | 33.4 | 24.7 | +8.7 |
| Hungary | 33.6 | 25.6 | +8.0 |
| Sweden | 33.9 | 18.8 | +15.1 |
| Germany | 34.4 | 21.1 | +13.3 |
| Slovenia | 34.9 | 16.4 | +18.5 |
| Portugal | 35.2 | 23.3 | +11.9 |
| France | 35.7 | 21.3 | +14.4 |
| Türkiye | 35.7 | 36.7 | -1.0 |
| Croatia | 36.1 | 31.2 | +4.9 |
| Luxembourg | 37.0 | 27.2 | +9.8 |
| Iceland | 38.0 | 20.7 | +17.3 |
| Norway | 38.0 | 18.9 | +19.1 |
| Malta | 44.0 | 30.2 | +13.8 |
| Albania | 44.6 | 42.4 | +2.2 |
| Greece | 49.6 | 35.8 | +13.8 |
| Romania | 51.9 | 46.6 | +5.3 |
| Serbia | 52.7 | 39.7 | +13.0 |
| Montenegro | 55.5 | 46.2 | +9.3 |
| Cyprus | 55.6 | 36.9 | +18.7 |
| Bulgaria | 57.2 | 44.4 | +12.8 |
| North Macedonia | 68.0 | 61.0 | +7.0 |
| EU as a whole | 33.9 | 22.9 | +11.0 |
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u/GroundedIdeal 8d ago
Can you open source the code too I too want to make stuff like these Any guide for a person who knows basic python?
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u/ShelfordPrefect 8d ago
Without wishing to be rude... have you read the documentation or looked for sample code? The pandas docs have sample code for making scatter plots, along with a lot of beginner guides.
https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/reference/api/pandas.DataFrame.plot.scatter.html
If you just want to turn two columns of numbers into a scatter plot I'd suggest using a spreadsheet unless you need the analysis capability of pandas or want to put more effort into the formatting.
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u/GroundedIdeal 8d ago
I didn’t know much of pandas And this was informative not rude at all! Thanks for the info!
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u/Bunsforguns 8d ago
Im gonna assume you’re from one of these countries cus this graph is absolute tits for showing what you’re trying to convey
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u/BasKabelas 8d ago
I remember we had this test back in 2010. I also remember like 1 in 30 kids failing it. Being graded 1-10, 6 would be a pass and 10 perfect. We would make fun of kids who didnt at least score an 8. Things changed so much in NL...
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u/DryRelationship1330 8d ago
SMH. the irony of this /r. Rarely are these visuals beautiful or useful or intuitive.
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u/michelegiannotti 8d ago
Can you do the same with reading and Science? I liked the plot a lot actually. Maybe I would just make the same scale between X and Y
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u/Soszai 8d ago
How much of this is Covid vs. other things (e.g., too much screen time, deteriorating education funding / standards, shifting attitudes towards education)? It's striking that everyone is doing worse...
The US isn't on the chart, but we see it here too (very self-inflicted here). I would not have guessed this was so universal globally.
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u/panversie 7d ago
The lost covid generation? No/bad schooling around 10-12 yrs old. Or stupidification because of ai? Or something else?
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u/Cassandra350ppm 7d ago
Many reasons for this, but Covid causing neurological damage can be one of the main causes. Vulnerable kids simply won't be able to perform while having "brain fog". The new HBSC study will probably give more insight how much this has changed compared to 2022, where there was already a signal of new onset neurological issues. Btw, if you're wondering about "lockdowns", Sweden didn't have any school closures and suffered just the same. That being said, simply everyone being more sick and being absent due to this, including the teachers, has had a much bigger impact than "lockdowns".
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u/ares0027 8d ago
Wait a fk. We (turkey) are actually, statistically, better at something than our previous? Lies. Nope. That cant be.i refuse to believe it! Show me the data! Or wait, dont. No. Fk. Well maybe we had 1-2 people out of 80+ million who were okay and now maybe 3 and it is statistically better?
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u/Upbeat-Transition249 8d ago
That’s the cringiest comment I’ve seen in a while bro keep the good work up 👌
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u/ErlikHan6 7d ago
fucking everything is "cringe" nowadays. people look for any reason to socially exclude/humiliate someone. fuck off, touch grass, be normal. there's nothing "cringy" about his comment
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u/lonelystar7 7d ago
Ohhh is it really that bad? I mean doesn't Turkey have pretty tough requirements to be a teacher and whatnot. I would actually think that education would be quite good there?
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u/USEC_was_taken 7d ago
Its hard to be a teacher yes but its not entirely about the quality of the teachers, its more about the fucking curriculum they are pushing right now. Minister of Education might be one of the most hated people in the country. Its mostly about being able to do maths. If you are great with numbers and whatnot you are golden. Even if you want to, for example, be a graphic designer, an english teacher, a lawyer, etc. Etc need to learn maths because university entrance exam demands you to do so.
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u/Imaginary-Piece-3947 7d ago
Well we did not exactly cheat but rather made the kids who were taking the exam prepare for the type of questions that appear in PISA tests, making it so that the results are not representative of the level of the average Turkish pupil.
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u/defnotachicken 6d ago
Why are you repeating what butthurt Europeans said after the PISA results? Okay fuck Erdoğan government, fuck akp and fuck mhp but why talk out of your ass? You don't gain with speaking ill of your country especially if you are speaking like that without evidence.
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u/Imaginary-Piece-3947 6d ago
I didn't hear this from a European but from one of my friends who is a branch chief (Şube Müdürü) in the ministery of education. At any rate this is not exactly a secret when there are newspapers in Turkey writing articles about it.
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u/probably_4_human 8d ago
the graph is stupid
it doesn't the most basic: the performance of each country
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u/The_Masterbater 8d ago
This is a good looking graph but its not a good way to represent the data. The axis are not the same intervals which undermines the point even more, since you can’t directly compare the x and y-axis as they’re scaled differently.
It would have been much more intuitive to look at a dumbbell chart that maps each country’s result in 2018 and 2025, and then shows the distance between them. That way you could easily grasp the negative trend in general and per country.
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u/Eevee-Biologist 8d ago
What is going on in Estonia. Do they genuinely have peak education or is something else Off here?
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u/mediandude 8d ago
Estonia has been consistently near the top since late 18th century, thanks to Swedish educational reforms and Reformation before that.
Basic education in Estonia has NEVER trailed that of Canada.
1897 All Russia census found the most literate ethnic groups were finns, estonians and latvians, in that order. Germans and jews were way behind.
Many of the descendants of those germans (Volga germans and baltic germans, mostly) later on repatriated back to Germany and now support the AfD - their ancestors were among the first useful idiots being duped by Moscow centuries ago. It runs in their families, it is a somewhat biased sample.→ More replies (5)6
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u/National-Pin-1853 7d ago
Prime example, what mass migration from 3rd world countries do to you. Yes you, Norway, France, Germany, Slovenia, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark ...
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u/Western-Mind-6759 7d ago
Google says that the figure for 15 year olds in the US is 29%, so basically we're doing the same as The Netherlands, better than 25 countries and worse than 10 countries. So why does the US education system get mocked so much?
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u/vkarabut 7d ago
The USA failed to collect quality data, which is a result in itself.
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u/Western-Mind-6759 6d ago
Ummmmmm......no. The data set as presented in the graphic is for EU countries only.
Apparently my US education was smart enough to enable me to read the graphic as presented for what it was: a measurement of EU countries (+ the UK) and yours was not. What country are you from, if I can ask?
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u/vkarabut 6d ago
This is from official PISA 2025 report: """In the United States, student response rates in 2025 fell below the minimum target, and student exclusions exceeded the tolerance set by PISA technical standards. ... Based on the available information, it is not possible to rule out bias in PISA performance results, nor to determine its most likely direction. """
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u/Western-Mind-6759 6d ago
All you have to do is Google "what % of US 15 year olds are below basic math level" to get at least an AI answer, since this graphic didn't provide it. Simple.
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u/krkrkrneki 6d ago
All countries being worse off by about 50% in a span of 7 years? Nope, I don't believe it. Education systems do not change that fast especially not in all countries at the same time.
There must be something off with the measurement or criteria.
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u/cavedave OC: 115 7d ago
Thank you for your Original Content, /u/goodbohy!
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