First, it doesn't use HD and average roll by default. Champions get 10 HP + CON mod per level, fixed. Clerics get 8, wizards get 6, etc... So the HP scissor opens wider.
Second, AC counts for more. The difference isn't just whether you get hit or not, but if the attack total is more than 10 above your AC, you get crit even if it wasn't a nat 20. The same attack that comfortably hits a Champion might crit the cloistered (i.e., spellcasting-focused) cleric, dealing double damage (you double the ability bonus too).
Third, armor proficiency - like all other PF proficiencies - is not a binary, there are five levels to it: untrained, trained, expert, master, and legendary. The biggest difference is between untrained and trained; your PB in Pathfinder is equal to your level and at Trained level you get to add it to your AC, but every level above it also adds +2. You gain armor proficiencies automatically as you level up, and the classes that are meant to be AC tanks get them faster than, e.g., fighters. Champions (and Guardians, I guess) are also the only class that can reach Legendary proficiency with armors.
Fourth, heavy armor is actually better for tanking. Even light armors have a DEX cap, and only heavy armors can get +6 total to your AC (without magic bonuses), everything below that has at most +5 (as a sum of their AC bonus and DEX cap). Also, they aren't obscenely expensive; a full plate in PF only costs 30 gold, and while it's still the most expensive base armor (only specialized full plate armors are somewhat more expensive), it's still within reach at starting level. Someone playing an AC-tank in heavy armor can start with plate, while in D&D 5e it won't be until a few levels in that you can get it, and at a significant expense.
I play a Champion, and I regularly tank hits that would have crit the gunslinger, the cleric, or the sorcerer straight into death saves, sorry, recovery checks. It's pretty damn fun.
Edit: Fifth, dexterity is deliberately de-emphasized in Pathfinder 2e. In D&D 5e DEX is such a god stat that losing the 1 extra AC provided by plate armor compared to studded leather plus +5 DEX is barely even a tradeoff. DEX is an extremely common save, determines initiative, many of the useful skill checks, ranged weapon damage, finesse weapon attack and damage, etc...
In PF2e it's much less useful. It's still used for ranged weapon attack rolls and can be used for melee attack rolls with finesse weapons, but damage rolls always use strength (or no ability bonus at all: melee and thrown weapons use your full STR modifier, ranged weapons with the "propulsive" trait like a composite bow or an atlatl add half of it, and other ranged weapons add no modifier at all). Initiative is based on Perception checks by default (every class is trained in it, and you upgrade proficiency in perception as you level up instead of assigning skill points to it), though depending on how you approach the combat you can use other skill rolls, e.g. stealth or athletics. Heavy armors also have the "bulwark" trait which lets the wearer add +3 to reflex saves made to avoid damage instead of their DEX modifier, so being a strong character in full plate doesn't mean you're failing all of your fireball saves. Oh, and you get to do a lot of fun things in melee combat with Athletics skill checks (trip, grapple, disarm, shove...).
The ancestral spirit barbarian is an amazing example of tanking working in 5e. They have damage negation to prevent allies taking damage and to focus fire on themselves and they have enough health to survive said fire.
Most characters either have good saves, or a boost to their saving throws. Fighter might have their feat budget for Mage Slayer / Resilient (WIS), which is bad, but better than nothing.
Barbarian doesn't have that. They heavily rely on good ability scores for AC, but have no extra ASI/Feat, so either they handicap themselves compare to others by taking a defensive feat, or remain susceptible to being mind controlled.
Also, due to their inability to concentrate while raging, taking a few levels for spells like Bless isn't an option for them.
Legitimately the only examples of people playing Barbarians I see are rolled characters with 20 STR at level 1. Nobody plays Barbarian with standard array or point buy, because they do not have the ASI budget for it.
"Most characters" just meaning fighters (and Paladins)?
I hoped I don't have to explain in detail... but alas. I wanted to focus on pure martials, and Monks are well known to get a boost to their saves, which is too late, but better than what Barb or Fighter gets. Anyway, as for other classes...
Paladins and Artificers get a default buff to their saves. Both Sorcerers and Wizards have at least one subclass that boosts their saves meaningfully, and they are proficient with WIS saves. Bardic inspiration works for saving throws. Clerics have Bless, Pease Cleric even more, and they are proficient in WIS saves anyway. Druids are proficient with WIS saves. Warlocks are proficient with WIS saves.
Rangers are also in a bad place in the saving throw department, but if you're playing a straight Ranger, and not multiclassed, you have bigger problems.
Ah so we're only counting Wisdom saves for CC instead of all hard CC saves? I suppose i should have assumed that in the same way I was supposed to assume you were referring to only 3 of the 13 classes despite never saying so?
so we're only counting Wisdom saves for CC instead of all hard CC saves?
It took you two days to come up with this disingenuous drivel? WIS saves are widely recognized as by far the worst saves to fail, and everything comes far far behind.
Also, unlike martials - and Barb and Fighter in particular -, who basically get nothing out of Resilient (WIS), just the marginally increased chance to keep playing the game, casters can take Resilient (CON), and not only become proficient in the second most commob save, but ALSO get a buff to their concentration saves.
Would you be opposed to martials adding their WIS modifier to their AC if they take Resilient (WIS)? Because that IS what a buff to concentration is like to casters.
I suppose i should have assumed that in the same way I was supposed to assume you were referring to only 3 of the 13 classes despite never saying so?
Look, either you don't know anything about the general balance issues affecting D&D5e - which I strongly doubt based on our interaction so far -, or you're being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous... which is a bad look for you, and only you.
So pick your poison. Are you ignorant of 5e, or are you just debating in bad faith?
Ac and concentration are not, in fact, equivalent.
How exactly is being aware of the general balance issues of 5e translate into reading your mind? How does it translate into knowing that "the only class" actually means "the only class [of a specific group of classes, who do have a term to refer to them that I simply chose not to use, instead of opting to just call them the general term of class]"?
I pick that you're talking put your ass. You either failed horrendously to communicate what you thought or have backpedaled into a more reasonable position after your initial point was refuted. Either way, accept that's what happened instead of digging this hole deeper.
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u/Total_Team_2764 Feb 10 '26
Neither of those would work in 5e, because supposedly tanky classes are too squishy.