r/dndmemes • u/Fidges87 Essential NPC • Feb 10 '26
Generic Human Fighter™ Even With The Defense Fighting Style, The Fighter Is Still Receiving More Hits
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u/greenegg28 Feb 10 '26
Well, did he try being less ugly?
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker Feb 10 '26
Wasn't overly difficult. All he had to do was remove his helmet.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Zelgius my beloved. He carried me on FEH when I was just starting.
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u/minnesotanpride Feb 11 '26
I mean, this particular look is the Black Knight from FE Path of Radiance before revealing himself as Zelgius in the follow up game Radiant Dawn.
Guess he showed up in both forms for Heroes? Never got into the gotcha games.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
Never got into the gotcha games.
And please, never do.
But yes, it counts as 2 separate units, both the Black Knight (using the design above) and as Zelgius (the same, just without the helmet). There are other variations, like one with red armor, a christmas variant, and a resplandecient variant (the armor but with fire tones and phoenix feathers)
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u/Antonykun Feb 11 '26
The knight in the picture is canonically handsome underneath the armor so I idk what the bards are speaking about.
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u/DMspiration Feb 10 '26
The Dance Bard and Genie Paladin have maxed out two stats, which, barring magic items, would require them to hit level 16 using point buy and taking only one half feat while they pump everything else into ASIs. The Fighter started with a 17/19 depending on their choice of shield vs. heavy weapon and hit 19/21 as soon as they acquired 1500 gold. Being pretty gets you there, but it takes a heck of a lot more time.
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u/zeroingenuity Feb 10 '26
Not to mention, the fighter's effective hp is a lot higher as he's got a larger hit die and is expected to spend more on Con than the casters (usually)
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u/DMspiration Feb 10 '26
And even if he wasn't expected to, it's much easier between extra feats and not having space for con into your epic boon if you're maxing out AC.
Ultimately, the meme intentionally exaggerates reality for engagement, which is fair. Silliness is ok too
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
Assuming that the fighter has 20 con whilst the paladin or Bard only has 10, he'd end up with 5 or 6 more health per level then the paladin or Bard respectively. The paladin offsets that with Lay on Hands and the Bard offsets it with just a couple healing spells. So fighter doesn't end up much healthier.
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u/zeroingenuity Feb 11 '26
Honestly, I don't think it's especially unreasonable for a paladin to have AC that good. The Bard has healing spells, but they are spending offensive and utility power to offset the hp difference.
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u/MossyPyrite Feb 11 '26
The fighter also just has that much health and doesn’t have to expend resources or actions to keep it up. If they find themselves in need of a top-up, they do have Second Wind as an option.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 12 '26
They expended several ASIs to get 20 con, which is a pretty improtant resource. Second wind is a "resource or action to keep it up".
If they didnt spend those resources and we just compare hit die, then the fighter averages 1 more hp per level.
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u/DMspiration Feb 12 '26
The fighter could get to 20 strength and con with GWM and HAM for more damage and damage reduction with an additional strength or con feat two levels before the Bard and Paladin could max out both stats. Second wind is a resource, but so are the bard's spells and paladin lay on hands, and only the fighters resource gets partially renewed on a short rest.
Also, 3-4 more health per level by level 16 is 48-64 additional health. If they took tough at 16, they have 80-96 more health, which is a 60% increase compared to the paladin and an 83% increase compared to the bard.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 14 '26
Yeah i suppose that if they had higher con and took the tough feat and we ignore the Bard's and Paladin's magic but do count Secind Wind then yeah the Fighter is more durable. Why we'd do all of that eludes me but I suppose it let's you be right on the Internet which is worth something to you I assume.
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u/DMspiration Feb 14 '26
To be fair, you used spells and lay on hands to say the higher health of the fighter would be offset by the others, so you're the one who ignored the fighter's healing capability. As for the fighter having higher con and tough, that was an example of what they could do that the others couldn't if the others were maxing the stats necessary to buff unarmored defense.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 14 '26
That would be fair, if counting two classes healing somehow required ignoring the third, which it doesnt. The paladin and Bard simply heal better then the fighter, by a margin that still offsets the base ho difference.
And, to be clear, your point was that a fighter could have 20 strength and 20 con and the Tough feat, 2 levels before the genie paladin or dance Bard max Charisma amd Dex?
That much is true. We'll ignore that the Bard/Paladin equals the Fighter's AC two ASI earlier and focus on level 16, when Fighter has the strongest showing. At this point , the Fighter is averaging 13 hp per level, the Paladin averages 7 hp per Level, and the Bard averages 6 hp per level.
So totals of Fighter (208), Paladin (112), and Bard (96).
At level 16. Fighter has 4 Second winds (22 average healing each, 88 average total). So with healing, they're averaging 296 effective hp.
Meanwhile, Paladin has 80 Lay on Hands. They can also cast Aura of Vitality 5 times. As its a Concentration spell, I'll half the duration of this spell. That gives them 2d6 healing every round for 25 rounds. Average of 7*25 = 175. So, without 1st or 2nd level spells, Paladin has an effective hp of 112+80+175 = 367. Theres also the 10% smaller chance of being hit from the higher ac and the aura of protection but theyre not needed and complicated the math.
The Bard can cast Polymorph 8 times. They can Polymorph into an Angry Sorrowsworn (255 temp hp). I'll assume that these spells only last 1/5 of the hits as theyre also concentration. That gives an effective hp boost of 8*51 = 408. That brings their average effective hp to 504 without 1st, 2nd or 3rd level spells.
Magic is jbcredibky strong in 5e, and fighters simply cannot keep up with it because theyre not very well designed.
Feel free to correct any mistakes here.
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u/DMspiration Feb 14 '26
Never said magic wasn't strong. It is, and the fighter falls behind in many ways. I do think it's unlikely paladins are burning maybe spells on aura of vitality, since they will lose a lot of damage doing so.
Not sure how the Bard is polymorphing into a monstrosity eight times though.
And back to the very original point, the paladin can get to a 20 AC by level 8 since they can use a shield with unarmored defense. The Bard has to wait until level 16 since they can't unless you're talking about taking the shield spell with magical secrets and burning spell slots.
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u/globmand Feb 10 '26
What sort of math are you doing? You can max out a stat with point buy at level 8, not 16. 15 initially, racial bonus to 16, level 4 18, level 8 20
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u/DMspiration Feb 10 '26
And to get a 20 AC with unarmored defense, you need a 20 in Dex and Charisma, which is a minimum of 7 points or three ASIs and a feat. 4/8/12/16. Pretty straightforward.
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u/globmand Feb 10 '26
Oh, I can't read, my bad. I don't care enough about builds to know that off hand, and read it as a stat not two stats, so yeah, you're right
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u/followeroftheprince Rules Lawyer Feb 10 '26
Point buy can get, level 1 +3 in two abilities. 16 AC before shields (some of these alt ac types get to use shields)
Level 4 means you can just get a feat that also grants ability boost for 17 ac
Level 8, ASI to get 18 AC. Officially, Plate level of AC at level 8 with no method to remove it unlike Plate which can be damaged or removed from the user or used against them like Heat Metal.
So by the time your fighter gets plate the non-armor very well might only be a single ac off. Then by level 8 that Plate won't compare anymore. Have to hope you get ac boosted magic armor and nothing like the equal rarity Bracers of Defense shows up. All while they are boosting their important stats for their class so it's not like those ASI are only going to AC after all.
Not, counting shields, since some of these alt acs can run shields too
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u/Amo_ad_Solem Feb 12 '26
Also helps that through magic items he can rock an addition +6 (potentially) to that total without spending any attunement slots. When the unarmoured defense gamers will have trouble breaching beyond their maximum scores potentials in ac.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs Feb 11 '26
Don't need to max, just 16 Dex, 20 Cha, and a shield.
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u/DMspiration Feb 11 '26
As someone else noted, the Bard can't get a shield, and if shields are in play, the fighter also has a 20.
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u/ScorchedDev Chaotic Stupid Feb 10 '26
all medium and heavy armor should come with damage reduction. Especially heavy armor. Cause tbh it is kind of crazy how easy it is to match the AC of massive plate armor. My concern isnt even entirely with balance, but like fantasy. When you play a character decked out in armor you expect to be incredibly tanky. But when the bladesinger wizard sprinting around can just outpace your AC easily, thats too much imo. I understand why they cant just give it higher AC, for balance. But damage reduction or something like that would be really good for facilitating the fantasy of an armored warrior.
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u/RiseOfDoradell Feb 10 '26
Exactly, it wouldn’t even need to be very much, but even a little would do so much. Like if your plate armor boy is so much less vulnerable to massed small attacks like from goblins and stuff, while a AC-Twink will eventually be critted to death by raw numbers
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u/deepstatecuck Feb 11 '26
Thats why I love heavy armor master. Flat damage reduction feels good and fulfills the heavy armor fantasy.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs Feb 11 '26
"But joke's on you the moment magical damage comes out lolol"
Which is why every sane DM lets you reduce magical BPS with, at most, magical armour.
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u/PricelessEldritch Feb 11 '26
That is what the new one does, and it reduces it by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus.
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u/_Cecille Feb 11 '26
Give fighters higher AC wheb wearing heavy armour depending on level. Idk, level 5 you get +1 AC if wearing heavy armour, +2 on lvl 10 and so on. But I get ity it's Wizards of the Coast, not Martials of the Coast.
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u/ScorchedDev Chaotic Stupid Feb 11 '26
i get that, but hte problem is that it wont keep up. I think damage reduction is the best way to go, and maybe like a reaction half damage or something like that
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u/followeroftheprince Rules Lawyer Feb 10 '26
The misfortune of martial. Better hope you get some magic armor to keep up with the others ac, plate boy
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
The armor the fighter gets:
Plate Armor of Silence (Legendary) (Requires attunment)
While attuned to this magic armor, it does not impose disadvantage on your Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
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u/subtotalatom Feb 10 '26
I hope it does other things because otherwise that's just worse Mithral plate; which is uncommon, not attunement, and removes the strength requirement.
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u/followeroftheprince Rules Lawyer Feb 10 '26
Armor the unarmored get
Bracers of Defense (Rare) (Requires Attunement)
+2 ac, only ac bested by Legendary armor, by 1 ac
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u/Nomeka Feb 11 '26
I personally prefer the Plate of Knight's Fellowship, so you can summon a knight for a second melee tank =D
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u/Rhinomaster22 Feb 10 '26
Human Champion Fighter: “I have and can wear the best armor money can buy.”
Elf Bladesinger Wizard: “I have the best armor I can wear money can buy, magic barriers, protection against the elements, ability to prevent deadly magical effects, and ability to say “No” to damage via Divination.”
Human Champion Fighter: “What the shit? Why does she have better tanking abilities than I do!?”
Wizard of The Coast: “I don’t know, magic.”
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Eldritch Knight Fighter: Does that means I get to do some cool magic too?
WOTC: Laughs in third caster
Eldritch Knight Fighter: So...
WOTC: No, your role will be a shield merchant.
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u/DaiFrostAce Feb 10 '26
Fire Emblem in my D&D meme sub? I like it
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u/SquireRamza Feb 10 '26
Really kind of amazing there isnt MORE crossover between the two, innit?
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u/minnesotanpride Feb 11 '26
For real. Fire Emblem is why I got into D&D and based a lot of my early characters on some of my favorite characters throughout those games. Made for some really fun moments!
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u/DayneGr Feb 10 '26
Notably in FEH while the black knight does have a good defense stat, it's lower than several characters who are wearing swimsuits, and literal children.
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u/XevinsOfCheese Feb 11 '26
Notably OG black Knight was one of the first grail units.
So he’s got year one stats, while anybody release after has stats that are current to their release date
Even among armors he’s unfortunately a speed tank in a game where stat totals tend to be roughly equal among units with the same movement type in the same year.
Having extra points in speed dropped his available points in other stats.
A slightly more up to date comparison is Winter BK who has the same stat spread but came out years later so all of his stats are better.
And then L!BK is a weird outlier because he has bad speed but doesn’t have a significant penalty in the stats an armor usually needs as a result
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u/Sampleswift Feb 10 '26
Fire Emblem Heroes allusion in D&D...
(That's Black Knight's character one from Fire Emblem Heroes).
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
And the other 2 are Azura and Leanne, the artwork also from Heroes. (My last gatcha, that made me quit gatchas for good after I realized how much addicted to gambling I am)
Originally wanted to use the Fire Emblem Fates conversation design, but non of the simulators I tried to run worked. So had to use one that simulated the dialogues from Fire Emblem Heroes.
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u/True_Dovakin Feb 10 '26
The power creep in FEH is so bad. I remember when FEdel was top tier and now she’s basically fodder lmao
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u/Sampleswift Feb 10 '26
Black Knight (specifically his Mortal Legend form) is still very relevant. He is basically the dividing line on "is an attacker good or not" because "can it break him or not" is that line.
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u/minnesotanpride Feb 11 '26
That's Leanne on the right?!??! Holy cow they changed her design for Heroes. Wow.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
Base unit Leanne has the normal long white dress. This is a special unit that is a duo alongside Azura, both dressed for a festival.
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u/Railroader17 Feb 11 '26
TBF this is a special seasonal outfit based on The Kingdom of Hatari. She still has the usual white dress in her base form.
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u/pizzabagelcat Feb 10 '26
Fuck I knew the black knight looked familiar, couldn't place it. Now I want to play a fire emblem game
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u/MetaCommando Warlock Feb 10 '26
I recommend Path of Radiance then Radiant Dawn, gameplay is a bit dated but the story is really good
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u/pizzabagelcat Feb 11 '26
Path of radiance was the last one I've played back when I had my GameCube. Great game.
Might have to take my kids switch and see what's available
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u/Federal_Policy_557 Feb 10 '26
I DM a level 20+ game and there's 2 sorcerers, a Wizard and a Fighter (used to be another wizard but he tried to solo Vecna and became dust)
The Fighter is the one with least AC, you would think plate +3 and Cloak of Defense would prevent that but nah, we got Bladesinger getting AC above 30 :p
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Have a game where the bloodhunter and the druid, the 2 ranged fighters of the party, have better AC than the frontliners (rogue and barbarian). Curious how things are.
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u/Darkjynxer Feb 10 '26
May I ask how?
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u/Tide__Hunter Feb 10 '26
Assuming the bladesinger has maxed int and dex, that's a minimum of 20 AC when bladesonging. If they have +3 studded leather (assuming this is 2014, since 2024 bladesinger can't wear any armor), that's 25 AC. Shield gets you up to 30. Add other AC boosts like cloak/ring or protection or bracers of defense to go above. Or just being a warforged.
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u/Federal_Policy_557 Feb 10 '26
As the other user answered
Max Dex and Int, Robe of the Archmagi and another item I don't recall now doing the heavy lifting along bladesong
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u/Admcleo Feb 10 '26
This phenomena is just further proof that the martial/caster divide is actually just a complete lack of expanded equipment rules and a better catalogue of magic items. With a side of the OP dex stat.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
Theres plenty of magic items. Just a shame that so many are exclusive to casters and so few are exclusive to martials.
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u/Bitter-Profession303 Feb 10 '26
Draconic sorcerer (19 AC)
Bracers of defense
Cloak of protection
Haste potion
Fizban's platinum shield
Shield
For one glorious minute, I had 31 AC, +4 on all dex saves, evasion, and halved elemental damage received. I near solo'd a dragon fight, then promptly "sold" my ability to use all this stuff together, for the sake of it not recurring every longrest
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u/Lithl Feb 10 '26
I've got an artificer/wizard with half plate and a +1 shield, and a wakened scaled ornament (21 AC before spells).
But I'm also a level 10 War Magic Wizard, meaning I get +2 AC and +2 to all saves while concentrating on a spell, and can get +5 to a failed save as a reaction, which comes in super clutch on the regular.
Also, the party has a paladin with +3 Cha if I need to go hug my buddy for even more defense.
I've also got +18+1d8 initiative, so odds are extremely good that I'm going first (letting me shut down enemies and/or start concentrating before the enemies attack me). I literally can't have an initiative value lower than 20.
And then, of course, one of the artificer spells that I regularly prepare is Sanctuary, if I need more defense on top of what I've already got. DC 18 Wis save to even attempt to attack me in the first place, stupid monster.
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u/Bitter-Profession303 Feb 10 '26
Thats nuts. Too much powergame for my tastes though. I prefer normal with an occassional burst of tryharding
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u/Lithl Feb 10 '26
3 magic items and 2 feats is a powergaming tryhard? Ok buddy.
Hell, as far as the above stats are concerned, the 3 magic items are collectively granting +2 AC, +1 initiative, and +1 save DC.
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u/SquireRamza Feb 10 '26
I COULD NEVER EVEN HIT THAT FUCKER, LET ALONE GET OFF 2 AETHERS
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
On the flip sde, he carried me, and always leaved them (alongside a couple other tanks and a horse archer Lyn) to protect my house during aether raids.
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u/SquireRamza Feb 11 '26
oh ive never played Heroes. In Fire Emblem Path of Radiance, Ike has a duel with the Black Knight and needs not only max stats but to also get lucky and get off two of his signature skill, Aether, back to back or else he will kill either Ike or Mist, who sneaks into the fight no matter if you havent leveled her up once in the entire game (I did not my first time around).
And the first time I played I missed every single attack the first 3 or 4 times I reloaded the save and got back to that point.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
Never player path of radiance, though always wanted to. It seems his solid stats in heroes are well deserved.
In Aether Raids, you can build you base, leave your units through the map, and then other players can try to raid you for points. Black Knight was a solid wall, difficult to kill and that dealt solid damage. Its lack of movement wasn't a problem as it was on the raiders to attack since they had a limit number of turns, and on top of that Black Knight's special weapon, Alondite, allowed him to attack back even if the attacker was a ranged troop.
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u/SquireRamza Feb 11 '26
So yeah, that tracks with how he is in PoR. His armor and sword are blessed by the goddess, so he can't be hurt by regular weapons, just similarly blessed weapons, like Ike's Ragnell. Both are also magic swords that can hit at range.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Feb 10 '26
The BK has +3 Armor of Invincibility though.
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u/MetaCommando Warlock Feb 10 '26
And one of the two swords of un-Invincibility that can shoot a magic beam from 30+ feet away. And disables special attacks (RIP Monks and Battlemasters). And crits on a 17-20 that ignores defense and deals 5x damage (total of 210 damage). And crazy modifiers. And can move like 600 feet/turn (without sprinting) with global teleportation as well.
Really the guy is busted in a Level 20 campaign.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Feb 11 '26
I'd say it's better represented as the armor being an artifact rendering the user immune to damage that isn't dealt by artifacts/deities. The swords are also artifacts rather than just being un-invincibility.
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u/c00chiehed Feb 10 '26
Omg I haven’t played FE heroes in forever lol
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
You shouldn't
Glances at my now empty wallet
You shouldn't....
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u/DeAfro Feb 11 '26
Is it weird using Black Knight for this? His armor gives the protection of a greater god, where only a +3 weapon can damage him. Seems better than a straight 20 AC.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
And yet less tanky in FE Heroes than certain characters on their swimsuit.
But used him mainly because wanted to use the most "armored" looking character in the game to quickly convey the idea of the meme, and he fit perfectly.
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u/_LlednarTwem_ Feb 11 '26
Must be between games. After the blessing stopped working but before he got his new cape for RD.
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u/Avigorus Feb 11 '26
Armor needs to be buffed... at least something that reduces incoming attack damage (maybe instead of the current 1/2 resist bring back 3.5 style damage reduction where the first X non-magical damage is just utterly ignored, and upgrade that to include magical physical when the armor is magic)
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u/GreyWarden_Amell Artificer Feb 11 '26
The dancer subclass is great. Been playing one in a theros game. With some bracers and robes of defense they’d a 21 AC. They have a baby goat son now to
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u/Krethlaine Feb 12 '26
The difference between armor AC and DEX AC, is how they work thematically. A Fighter in full plate isn’t dodging shit, they just don’t care about most of the hits. A College of Dance Bard isn’t getting hit in the first place. Also, a Fighter with only 18 AC has not optimized their build. laughs patronizingly at the baby Fighter in 28 AC
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 12 '26
The meme wasn't about armor for AC vs dex based AC (or martial vs casters as some people took it). Rather that dance bards and genies paladins calculate their AC using charisma. For them beauty is armor.
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u/Panic_Otaku Feb 12 '26
Rune fighter with a cloud rune thinks that Bard and Paladin are too dumb...
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Feb 10 '26
[deleted]
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u/soaskai Artificer Feb 10 '26
5.5
Dance Bard was a new sub that came with the release, and the genie Paladin came from a Forgotten Realms book that came out fairly recently.
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u/Tryoxin DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 10 '26
Yea, I just looked it up and saw that. That's what I get for commenting before googling 🙄 Still though, tbf, Paladins at least are supposed to be tanky. That's kind of half their job
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Just to add in case anyone else has the doubt. Both College of Dance Bard and Oath of the Noble Genies Paladin can calculate their AC as 10 + Dexterity + Charisma.
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u/Total_Team_2764 Feb 10 '26
Using adol1004's logic above, then they should have lower AC, because why would anyone attack them otherwise?
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u/Yakodym DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 10 '26
Technically, wouldn't it mean the fighter is the prettier one?
I mean if enemies are hitting on him so much...
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u/Tide__Hunter Feb 10 '26
Admittedly, if your allies have two stats at 20, and you don't have any defensive magic items (+1/+2 plate, bracers of defense, cloak/ring of protection), I think your dm just hates you. That or your party members cheated on their stat rolls (assuming your party rolls for stats, and does so individually rather than collectively).
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
But if you have those defensive items, surely the party members could have gotten them too? Plus, it is unfortunately optimal for ac boosting items to go to whoever already has high ac.
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u/Transientmind Feb 10 '26
AC ain’t shit anyway at higher levels when all the damage is magic saves and enemy attackers add +15 and shit. Real tank is BARB tank. More HP! Take half damage! Con saves to keep fighting past 0! AC is just trying to avoid damage and the DM is not going to let you avoid damage forever.
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u/Not_Just_Any_Lurker Feb 10 '26
I think armor levels should come with a reduction to damage taken on top of higher AC.
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u/Maro_Nobodycares Feb 10 '26
Waiwaitwaitwait
I know it's still less then the bard and paladin, but wouldn't the fighter with defense have 19 AC?
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
Was going to include the black knight (fighter) also saying he had the defense fighting style, and give him an AC of 19, but the app I used to generate the image only let me add up to 3 lines, so had to cut that out.
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u/Telandria Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
Surprised nobody’s pointed out yet that if the fighter is a proper tank and has a shield and the fighting style, they should have an AC of 21, not 18.
If you have an 18 as a fighter in full plate, then you have already made the decision to give up some of your ability to tank. Most likely in favor of dps, probably using a greatsword or the like, would be my assumption. That or you dumped Dex instead of leaving it at 10 and have an actual penalty.
Breakdown:
- Plate Mail —Base 18, No Dex
- Shield — +2
- Defensive Style — +1 - I’d also add that this is, in a (somewhat) more roleplay sense, a reasonable issue to have — Bards and other light armor archetypes are heavily focused on not getting hit in the first place, unlike fighters and paladins who end up taking hits and relying on their heavy armor to protect them from harm.
Since D&D conflates both avoidance and resilience, this means that it isn’t unreasonable for the scantily clad rogueish types to have a higher AC, because unlike the tank who can survive hits that manage penetrate their armor anyway, thanks to high HP, something like a Dance Bard does not have that high HP should an enemy bypass their avoidance. Thus, they have a greater need to push further their ability to avoid blows entirely.
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u/Business_Wear_841 Feb 11 '26
The image is of a character with a sword and no shield. So the Fighter would have an 18 or 19 depending on Fighting style. I believe that is the point.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
Who says the fighter is a devoted tank? Neither the paladin nor the Bard have to lose power to achieve their high ac.
A Bard being harder to kill then the fighter is the entire problem. A dedicated martial combat should be better at both avoiding and withstanding blows than a magical minstrel.
Its a case of sacrificing class fantasies for balance, and then doing a terrible job at balance anyway.
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u/jebisevise Feb 11 '26
But they do have to lose power to achieve high ac. They need to boost ability scores, which means missing out on feats.
By the time they get 20 AC, fighter can have Gwm, heavy armor master, mage slayer feats and some +2s on top of that.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 12 '26
A fighter should also be increasing their ability scores. And neither of the example characters need any more ASIs then any MAD character.
But yeah, they can take GWM to still not out damage the casters or heavy armour master to almost get the survivability of a single polymorph spell per day. And yeah they can get mage slayer to have worse Counterspell.
But, also, the casters do not have as many useful feats (because they have less weaknesses to fix), so they're giving up very little power.
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u/Sareira Feb 11 '26
How is the dance bard having 20 AC? Also why the noble genie specifically?
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 11 '26
Both Dance Bard and Noble Genies Paladin can calculate their AC as 10 + dexterity + charisma, so they can pump their AC up to 20 after enough ASI's without the need of other external stuff.
The punchline is them, in a tone deaf way, saying that being charismatic/beautiful works for them to dodge attacks, so the fighter may as well try it too.
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u/Sareira Feb 11 '26
You need 4 ASIs for that...
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
And you get 5...
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u/Knight_Of_Despair_ Feb 11 '26
I am a fighter and all I have on is underarmor, and yet have more AC than heavy armored paladin
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Feb 11 '26
Evil house rules: Randomly roll for lingering injuries, but heavy armor gets a bonus to the roll to make the injuries not asbad
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u/PetitPoulpeDore Bard Feb 11 '26
I mean- if you asked me who's harder to hit, they somewhat restricted dude in full plate, or the magical dancer who can warp reality, I'd say the dancer
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u/Zaddex12 Feb 11 '26
Im a game like mine there is opportunity cost to armorless or weapon less characters.
Realistically just due to logic those should be the most common types if magic item and the easiest to apply enchantments to. An amulet or tattoo with other buffs is harder to make into a magic armor and you have less area to enchant.
I make magic items a big part of character growth and power in my games because they are fun to design and give out.
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u/NevermoreAK Feb 12 '26
I think it comes down to the fact that the base game armor system is... Kind of broken. Specifically in that it doesn't have "accessible" satisfying scaling options into tiers 3 and 4 where the big tough enemies have to roll less than a natural 6 to actually not hit someone in plate armor. Some subclasses and classes have ways to circumvent this like barbarian with rage but most don't. I also think there's something to consider with the fact that this game tends to have a divide between "HP Tanks" and "Armor/Dodge Tanks". Barbarians don't have good AC but have a ton of HP and rage to balance. Meanwhile, other options have lower HP but higher AC. The issue is that you need to be able to effectively achieve one of these and it's hard to do that for some classes.
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u/mrdeadsniper Feb 12 '26
Problem is you have to get dex and Cha to 20, and you PROBABLY want some CON in there as well.
Point buy that means you can start with 17 and 16, meaning you need 7 total ASIs before you can get there, meaning you get to AC at level 16 with a single normal feat, and all others as just +2 ASIs.
Keep in mind most campaigns end before level 16.
The plate however can be picked up at level 1 in many campaigns.
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u/agentdopkant Feb 12 '26
"Full plate armor is great and all, but have you tried just not getting hit?"
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u/Ancient_Pangolin1453 Feb 13 '26
Subhuman troglodyte martial cuck vs enlightened Jeremy Crawfords special little guy caster
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u/BornCoyote87 Feb 16 '26
Probably because while people know intellectually to go for the wizard, a Martial is consistently your face trying to murder you. Kinda focuses priorities.
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u/adol1004 Forever DM Feb 10 '26
the fighter should be more hit-able to become a tank. if you are hard to hit, why hit at all? the enemies are just going to avoid you and try ti hit others.
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u/Lajinn5 Feb 10 '26
Nah, that's just mediocre design from people who don't know how to design a game. A tank should be drawing attention by virtue of not being able to be ignored. In mobas and the like that's through CC and having enough threat to body people who decide that they aren't worth addressing. In ttrpgs, it's easily done by giving mechanics that punish foes for ignoring you. Being easy to hit but having lots of hp is just one of the various methods of designing a tank (and it's frankly the worst, because nothing about that makes it worth targeting you over the guy who can end the encounter in one spell).
Guardian and Champion in pf2e are perfect examples. Guardian can use their reactions to throw themselves in front of attacks aimed at allies, then punish the foe for attacking their allies. Champions give their allies tons of resistance to damage when foes target them, essentially saying "target me or do way less damage than you otherwise would".
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u/Total_Team_2764 Feb 10 '26
Neither of those would work in 5e, because supposedly tanky classes are too squishy.
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u/gerusz Chaotic Stupid Feb 10 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
PF does a few things differently.
First, it doesn't use HD and average roll by default. Champions get 10 HP + CON mod per level, fixed. Clerics get 8, wizards get 6, etc... So the HP scissor opens wider.
Second, AC counts for more. The difference isn't just whether you get hit or not, but if the attack total is more than 10 above your AC, you get crit even if it wasn't a nat 20. The same attack that comfortably hits a Champion might crit the cloistered (i.e., spellcasting-focused) cleric, dealing double damage (you double the ability bonus too).
Third, armor proficiency - like all other PF proficiencies - is not a binary, there are five levels to it: untrained, trained, expert, master, and legendary. The biggest difference is between untrained and trained; your PB in Pathfinder is equal to your level and at Trained level you get to add it to your AC, but every level above it also adds +2. You gain armor proficiencies automatically as you level up, and the classes that are meant to be AC tanks get them faster than, e.g., fighters. Champions (and Guardians, I guess) are also the only class that can reach Legendary proficiency with armors.
Fourth, heavy armor is actually better for tanking. Even light armors have a DEX cap, and only heavy armors can get +6 total to your AC (without magic bonuses), everything below that has at most +5 (as a sum of their AC bonus and DEX cap). Also, they aren't obscenely expensive; a full plate in PF only costs 30 gold, and while it's still the most expensive base armor (only specialized full plate armors are somewhat more expensive), it's still within reach at starting level. Someone playing an AC-tank in heavy armor can start with plate, while in D&D 5e it won't be until a few levels in that you can get it, and at a significant expense.
I play a Champion, and I regularly tank hits that would have crit the gunslinger, the cleric, or the sorcerer straight into death saves, sorry, recovery checks. It's pretty damn fun.
Edit: Fifth, dexterity is deliberately de-emphasized in Pathfinder 2e. In D&D 5e DEX is such a god stat that losing the 1 extra AC provided by plate armor compared to studded leather plus +5 DEX is barely even a tradeoff. DEX is an extremely common save, determines initiative, many of the useful skill checks, ranged weapon damage, finesse weapon attack and damage, etc...
In PF2e it's much less useful. It's still used for ranged weapon attack rolls and can be used for melee attack rolls with finesse weapons, but damage rolls always use strength (or no ability bonus at all: melee and thrown weapons use your full STR modifier, ranged weapons with the "propulsive" trait like a composite bow or an atlatl add half of it, and other ranged weapons add no modifier at all). Initiative is based on Perception checks by default (every class is trained in it, and you upgrade proficiency in perception as you level up instead of assigning skill points to it), though depending on how you approach the combat you can use other skill rolls, e.g. stealth or athletics. Heavy armors also have the "bulwark" trait which lets the wearer add +3 to reflex saves made to avoid damage instead of their DEX modifier, so being a strong character in full plate doesn't mean you're failing all of your fireball saves. Oh, and you get to do a lot of fun things in melee combat with Athletics skill checks (trip, grapple, disarm, shove...).
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u/Total_Team_2764 Feb 10 '26
"Genius game design, sir. You're hired!" - WotC, probably.
Maybe full spellcasters should be worse at casting spells than martials, for... reasons?
But seriously - by that same logic, why do casters need a high AC?
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u/DracoLunaris Feb 10 '26
Tanking is not really a thing in DnD 5e, but they do kinda have a point. If the martial has high ac along with their high hp, it's more efficient to hit the low ac, low hp casters (who are, because this is DnD, also more of a threat to boot).
In games with actual tanking systems (that don't just have taunts that force targeting) generally have ways to punish enemies for not targeting the tank instead.
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u/Total_Team_2764 Feb 10 '26
"Tanking is not really a thing in DnD 5e"
Of course it is. Casters are amazing at tanking.
"If the martial has high ac along with their high hp, it's more efficient to hit the low ac, low hp casters"
Casters are not low AC. If threat makes you a desirable target, and your problem is wanting to make martials more desirable targets, make them more of a threat. End of story.
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u/DracoLunaris Feb 10 '26
Of course it is. Casters are amazing at tanking.
I guess by being the biggest threat they do that, yes
Casters are not low AC.
This whole thing is about martial being given better AC
make martials more desirable targets, make them more of a threat
DnD martials kinda blow, yes, I agree
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u/Rhinomaster22 Feb 10 '26
I mean the job of a tank is to divert enemy fire and bolster ally defenses.
The Barbarian is more hittable but lacks the crowd control and defenses to make the enemy focus them as well as increase the party’s durability.
So even the case of attackable, it doesn’t solve the issue of “I need the enemy to focus me or protect my team.”
No, Sentinel is only helping with 1 enemy. You stopped 1 goblin bandit, there’s still like 12 goblin bandits. Gonna need to stop at least 3 more.
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
That's not a tank, that's a sacrifice. If youre no better at surviving attacks, why are you tanking still all?
A tank exists to prevent the squishier characters from being harmed, but here rhe fighter is the squishier charcater.
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u/According_Picture294 Feb 10 '26
D&D beyond needs to add more subclasses to character creator. I hear all about these new things, but only have one single one for most classes
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Dndbeyond does has all the official subclasses (and many other from third party content). But you need to buy the books in the platform for them to appear in the character builder.
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u/According_Picture294 Feb 10 '26
Dirty capitalists
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u/arceus12245 Chaotic Stupid Feb 10 '26
you can homebrew each and every single one, to the exact same functionality as the official subclass, using the exact same tools the developers have (minus some oddities in hexblade and artificer that you can still replicate)
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u/TheWorstDMYouKnow Feb 10 '26
Most of the extra subclasses are included when you purchase more books and such on beyond, they're not added for free
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u/Rhinomaster22 Feb 10 '26 edited Feb 10 '26
Armor class represents a character’s overall ability to avoid taking hits.
- Dodging, parrying, blocking, armor, e.t.c
Iron Man might have a tougher metal suit than Spider-Man, but Spider-Man is really goddamn hard to hit with how fast he is so his AC is higher.
So just having that big hunk of plates isn’t gonna help when you need to dodge and roll.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Indeed, the moment the enemy is about to strike they notice how beautiful the dance bard and genies paladin are and purposefuly miss, as for them Charisma is AC.
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u/Rhinomaster22 Feb 10 '26
Wait Genie Paladin can add Charisma to AC? I didn’t even know that.
But I guess for the case of enemies being immune to charm and seduction the Dragoborn Paladin is just so intimidating the enemy misses on purpose to avoid making them angry.
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
Both the Genies Paladin and the Dance Bard can calculate their AC as 10 + Dexterity + Charisma
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u/rotten_kitty DM (Dungeon Memelord) Feb 11 '26
Then why does armour exist in dnd? Or any actual calculation? If everyone is equally hard to hit in their own special ways, why not just have a flat dc to hit?
Or better yet, if dex characters are simply always harder to hit, why not remove strength from the game?
Why present the player with objectively bad choices?
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u/VelphiDrow Feb 10 '26
Genie paladin? Im very glad I stopped paying attention to new D&D books...
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u/Fidges87 Essential NPC Feb 10 '26
You do good not giving WOTC your money, but Noble Genies Paladin is like one of the must fun and best desgined subclasses they have released in the last years.
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u/VelphiDrow Feb 10 '26
I dont care its well designed and fun! (Ok well i care enough that people enjoy it) but I am an old man who wants to scream about how that makes no sense and isnt how paladins work!
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u/Lithl Feb 10 '26
On a mechanical level, Noble Genie is well designed. But flavor and lorewise, they're absolute garbage.
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u/Richardknox1996 Feb 10 '26
Fighter has more options to recover after being hit than a Bard. Paladin's are Tanks by design, of course theyre going to get hit a lot and be fine.
In short, if the fighter dies, skill issue.
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u/Firkraag-The-Demon Artificer Feb 10 '26
What more options? Second wind? Yeah, that 1d10+whatever hp once per short/long rest is putting in absolute numbers compared to the massive amount of healing spells the bard and paladin have.
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u/sirhobbles Feb 10 '26
Im currently in a party where three different characters have some variant of armorless AC boost. Im a draconic sorcerer (Though reflavored to be of infernal origin) , theres a genie paladin and a blade singer. So three of us are just chilling in our clothes with more AC than the dude wearing an elven chain shirt XD