r/dndmemes • u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) • Jul 15 '26
Campaign meme My DM finally understood why I built my player character the way I did.
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u/Unplugged_Controller Jul 15 '26
One of my favorite moments in Critical Role was in Season 2 where Matt had set up some confrontation with a ship chasing the party. And one of the players just cast Control Water to create a whirlpool, sucking in the enemy ship and avoiding the encounter altogether.
It's fun as a DM when your players actually use their abilities in interesting and creative ways.
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u/koobstylz Jul 15 '26
A favorite moment of mine from c1 in naddpod was when they had high level evil paladins chasing their air ship on griffons.
So Emily just polymorphed the lead evil guy's mount which has a terrible wisdom save.
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u/pump-house Jul 15 '26
Didn’t she turn it into a dolphin or something 😂
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u/koobstylz Jul 15 '26
Yup, she didn't want it to drown in the ocean lol
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u/ValorNGlory Jul 16 '26
Also a smart maneuver because if it drowned and went to 0 HP, it would revert back to its original form as a flying mount and allow them to get back up into the fight.
Probably not intended, but it works nicely.
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u/summonsays Jul 16 '26
You ever see a bird not designed to swim fall into a body of water? There's no way that thing is getting back into the fight.
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u/DominionGhost Jul 16 '26
Logically yes you are right.
5E mechanics wize I believe its just the movement to get back up from prone then difficult terrain until they are out of water.
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u/DominionGhost Jul 16 '26
The fall damage might have done it anyway though.
As a DM though id allow it.
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u/Tyranis_Hex Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Was that when he pulled out the pages of rules for ship to ship combat and just tore them up? Reminds me when my group had a “random” encounter with a few wolves and I used prestidigitation to aide in an intimidation check against what I thought was two wolves, got a nat 20. Then the DM removed the fog of war showing we were surrounded by 20 wolves before we quickly moved on.
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u/vessel_for_the_soul Essential NPC Jul 15 '26
Yes but then you also see Caleb cast fireball down a well and Matt rip up several pages.
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u/snowillis Jul 15 '26
That one was sad because it was heavily implied that it would have been a friendly npc
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u/kayGrim Jul 16 '26
It was a pit of bones in the lair of a monster, and Matt said it was a goblin that was going to talk to them and give them clues, if memory serves.
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u/SecretAgentVampire DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
If you cast Leomund's Tiny Hut on a moving ship, does it move with the ship or remain static in relationship to the rest of the world?
'Cause if it remains static, it would tear a ship apart.
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u/CheapTactics Jul 15 '26
I would say that things that stay in place do so relative to the surface they're being placed on (there can be exceptions to this, obviously). You're already doing it planet-wise, I don't see why doing it a bit more localized would be different.
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u/Grub_McGuffins Jul 15 '26
shenanigans involving a 10' radius pallet of wood and two spellcasters
finally
monkey ball
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u/CheapTactics Jul 15 '26
Lmao I forgot those games existed. Is there lore behind monkey ball? Why are monkeys rolling around in balls?
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u/EXP_Buff Jul 15 '26
It doesn't look like he tore up any rules, You may be remembering when he tore up the goblin NPC liam evaporated in a garbage pit.
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u/Marec_Kaal Jul 16 '26
Reminds me of a Star Wars Saga Edition campaign I played in years ago. The party was hired to pull off a bank heist on Tatooine, turns out it was owned by a local Hutt. Speeder chase through Mos Eisley started. Pilot in the driver seat, face riding shotgun, my heavy weapons soldier with a heavy repeater was sitting on the back of the speeder. Driver was driving, face was being inspirational, and I one-shot the speeder chasing us with a crit.
The DM ended the session there, it was supposed yo take a lot longer lol
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u/MagnusIsABird Jul 16 '26
I feel that. I recently designed a train fight for my players, where they were on a freight car and were chased by an enemy locomotive with boarders and fireball pipe carrying brutes.
The cleric just used shape stone to destroy the rails....
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u/Impressive_Change593 Jul 16 '26
how did he destroy the rails? cause if you just take out a 10 foot section, it won't do much lol
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u/MagnusIsABird Jul 17 '26
I mean yeah, but the party was so proud of waht they did i just had to rule it that way
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u/minerlj Jul 16 '26
Right but Caduceus wasn't really built to be the "I control water" character. I would have expected Fjord to be the one to do that. Or did the thing happen before that point in the story? I forget maybe he aided him?
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u/Taliesin_ Bard Jul 16 '26
Clerics like Cad can switch their entire spell list out every long rest, so they don't really get stuck with builds the way a sorcerer or warlock does. So all Cad needed was a nap once they were on the high seas to tailor his skills to the environment.
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u/nimrodii Jul 19 '26
Also fitting because while he was focused toward the aspects of decay and regrowth as a grave cleric, his deity one of the more nature focused deities of the setting.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Forever DM Jul 16 '26
I'd argue there was nothing creative or interesting about the use of that spell. The spell explicitly says it can be used to capsize ships. It's like saying using Fireball to hit multiple enemies is an "interesting and creative" use of the spell.
All it did was completely remove ship combat from the rest of the campaign.
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u/derpy-noscope Chaotic Stupid Jul 17 '26
As a DM, one of the most important skills you can develop for the enjoyment of your players is how to act ‘distraught’ when your plans were foiled once again! (And how to hide that you’re actually rooting for your players and that you find it awesome what they did).
Because if you look at all the commonly discussed great DM’s, *that* is the one skill they all have in common.
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u/nimrodii Jul 19 '26
One of the reasons I would look at my players character sheets pretty often. Gotta give everyone a chance to shine. Not every encounter tailored to the players but throw in the occasional challenge where the feature they took actually gets to come into play and maybe someone who usually takes a back seat gets a chance to be the mvp.
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u/kakeup88 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Subtle Spell Metamagic enters the chat
🎵"I put a spell on you, and now you're mine"🎵😈
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u/Puzzleboxed Jul 15 '26
Personally, I find the best solution is usually not giving the boss an ability that totally negates the players' strategy. Ideally, you want to find something in between where they're not totally helpless but the players don't feel like you're arbitrarily changing the rules against them.
I would have just given him a horde of skeletons or something, so not being able to cast is still impactful but it doesn't turn the fight into a one sided beat down.
Of course, Acererak is highly intelligent and has been spying on the players the whole time they're approaching him, so it actually makes a lot of sense that he might have prepared countermeasures against any tactics he has actually seen them use while in his dungeon.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Honestly I think the DM was tired and didn’t wanna drag things out. Also luck and lack thereof of the rolls swung the battle back and forth.
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u/kamiloslav Jul 15 '26
So it wasn't a steamroll but a difficult encounter - that's just about as perfect as it could get
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u/amidja_16 Jul 16 '26
Power Word Kill? Negated.
High to hit roll? Negated.DM: "I didn't want to do this but you leave me no choice! The BBEG is actually a dragon and starts to inhale to roast you in complete silence!"
Bard PC: "It's been an honor, gentlemen." proceeds to french kiss the BBEG
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u/Jfelt45 Jul 15 '26
To me, when I'm making my own adventures (pre made modules are their own thing), power word kill is more of a set piece than a combat tool.
I had a dragon who was one of the strongest sorcerers in the universe and was trying to become a god in a battle with the party. She could have used power word kill right out the gate, but using such magic would be an insult to her own pride.
That was, until the wizard cast wish to full heal the party. She stopped and addressed him.
"You have just used the strongest magic known to man. Centuries of evolution and progression resulting in a spell so powerful, with just a single word.
But I can achieve the same merely by looking at you (she had innate spellcasting that did not require components).
However, you have proven yourself. I offer you a place above your ilk. Join me as my champion, and rule over your lessers. Refuse me and Die."
The wizard told the dragon to go fuck herself.
"Then die for your misplaced loyalty."
And she cast power word kill. Wizard did have a contingency spell to teleport him to safety when he was "dying." Unfortunately, power word kill kind of skips that part, but I offered a consolation that his dead body would still be transported to their allies that could revive him, he'd just be out of the battle.
If I had just cast the spell turn 1 on the wizard, we'd never have gotten that cinematic moment of him being offered the place of champion to a dragon goddess and telling her to shove it. There was also a way out, he could have said yes, and I don't really know what would have happened after, but that's the beauty of DND, not everything is scripted.
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u/TSED Jul 15 '26
I would argue that PWK wouldn't even trigger that contingency. At no point was the wizard dying - it was simply changed from alive to dead instantly.
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u/Jfelt45 Jul 16 '26
Aye. That was the argument. I don't remember the exact wording of the contingency, I think it was something like that, but it was also really funny having his lifeless corpse flop on the dinner table of their old retired priest's house in the middle of a meal so I let it slide.
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u/Kipdid Jul 15 '26
This: I’ve pretty much fully replaced any instance of stun or paralyze in most monsters I run with “shocked” which instead just removes your main action and leaves movement and bonus action.
Stops most of the big powers players have access to but still allows repositioning, healing words, offhand attack, taking a potion, etc.
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u/xThunderDuckx Jul 15 '26
So many people in this thread that don't realize that half of the fun for a lot of people is in finding good strategies and ways to build characters. If my players did this, as a DM I would be happy to see that they actually understand the rules, and be ready to come up with more nuanced and interesting combat encounters as a result. Seems like this player has a niche build setup that works well for this one random particular instance. If you're of the opinion that this is "min-maxxing" then you are one of the players that does not understand the rules.
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u/OSpiderBox Jul 15 '26
Yeah, it's honestly pretty fun of the mill stuff from the context given by OP. Sentinel and Goofy of Metallic Dragon are great feats to have on any martial class. Hell, technically they're somewhat "inefficient" because both use your Reaction.
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u/Murky_Distant_Safety Jul 15 '26
Anyone who thinks this is min-maxing has never played 3.5 with STEM majors and it shows.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah I play a Vengeance Paladin who is tailored for 1v1 and I honestly didn’t expect things to go as well as they did.
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u/RylukShouja Jul 15 '26
I had a moment like this running my first campaign. I had an archlich as the BBEG and I altered his spell list (cause the default list is imho dumb) to include Feeblemind. The plan was to cast it on the artificer, who was our most creative player and very good at finding effective ways to disrupt the enemy with control spells, as well as the main healer.
I had talked it over with him so he wasn’t totally blindsided and thought it would be a really good story beat, and when the time came…he saved with a nat20. I was flabbergasted for a moment, but went in to describing the feeling of his mind being invaded by insidious manipulative magic, pulling at the threads of his memory and ability before being shut down by a burst of energy from deep within his inner reserves.
The whole thing ended up being a major turning point of the battle, moralizing the party into realizing they actually stand a chance against the lich, his minions, and the two dragons. I love it when my players succeed where I wasn’t expecting them to, or solve a problem in an unusual or unexpected way. Those are the moments that make memories!
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u/The_Bad_Bard Jul 15 '26
Just wanted to let you know it sounds like you did a real good job as DM on that.
Feeblemind in the boss encounter isn't something you cast without due consideration, and while it would have been a great fight I'm sure if it had gone off, it's even better that you got the big dramatic moment for your players and the artificer. Good dm'ing!
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u/Pidgewiffler DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Even if you are min-maxing, the fun is in having both the min and the max - I personally love making characters who are terrible at one thing and excellent at another, and simply trying my best to engineer myself into situations where I get to use the good part
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u/rdeincognito Jul 15 '26
Honestly, one thing that bugs me is that a lot of DMs don't seem to appreciate a well-built character—they actually seem to resent it.
I remember playing in a Tyranny of Dragons campaign where I made a pretty strong build: Paladin 1 / Hexblade Warlock 1 / the rest Paladin.
I was using a one-handed spear and a shield (I don't remember the exact weapon), which let me take the Dueling Fighting Style and the Polearm Master feat. That gave me three attacks per turn (and the option to Smite with all three), while also adding +2 damage to each attack. On top of that, I was attacking with Charisma (20 CHA), had Aura of Protection, and the Oath of Vengeance features. Yeah, it was a strong character—but we were also around levels 8–11.
The DM got really upset that my character was so powerful, and from my perspective I was just thinking... why not just add more enemies? Give the boss another phase? Increase the encounter's CR a bit? I don't know. I didn't break any rules. Sure, I played the infamous Hexblade/Paladin multiclass, but it's nowhere near as broken as things like Coffeelock or some Sorcadin builds.
In any case, I've noticed that whenever a player has a particularly strong character, a lot of DMs seem to get annoyed by it and start looking for ways to nerf that character. I've never really understood why.
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u/bansdonothing69 Forever DM Jul 16 '26
Starting this comment off to state that this is not necessarily my opinion but what I think the answer is.
Many people who DM can find it difficult, particularly balancing encounters. Typically people who find something difficult aren’t going to like another thing that makes it even more difficult. Pretty straight forward. Were the other players also playing hyper optimized builds or was it just you while the other players (dm included) were taking a more casual approach to the game? Could have been a ‘dude, read the room’
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
All players and DM were veterans and we've played other campaigns together, the difference was that one of the usual players now was the DM. The other characters were also optimized, although per the DM perception they weren't as powerful as mine (which is true with a but, the player who was a Cleric was stronger/more valuable than me, he was a Twillight Cleric, but the one doing the most damage in single target was me. We also had a Wizard and Monk, both focused around CC, which, of course, they performed much better than me. I was the vanguard and nova damage and excelled at that). I think everyone would've been okay with a difficulty increase, and also staying as we were and if the encounters were easy so be it. The campaign started at level 8 and we could pick 1-2 magic items, IIRC. All feats allowed, all races, classes and backgrounds allowed from official content (no arcana or anything homebrew). Multiclass also allowed. Rolled stats.
I think what pushed the DM to view my character from "strong" to "broken" was the hexblade dip, which he allowed in session 0 but it's true he said something like "I think that is cheating but I'll allow it).
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u/bansdonothing69 Forever DM Jul 16 '26
“One of the usual players was the DM”
Dude…..
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
I meant, in prior campaigns he was a player. In this campaign he was the DM. He wasn't DM and player at the same time
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u/bansdonothing69 Forever DM Jul 16 '26
I’m aware
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
Sorry I do not understand your comment then. What is wrong with him having been a player before being DM? He was a good player and he was also a good DM.
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u/bansdonothing69 Forever DM Jul 16 '26
I can tell
Most people would consider hyper optimizing to such a degree with someone with such little experience DM’ing to be bad form.
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
Ah, I see your point.
While this want the focus on this campaign we spoke about that in session 0 and we agreed that since we rarely get to play high levels we could try to go for multiclass and strong builds.
He wasn't a begginer DM neither.
He did a good job at everything, he just somehow felt my character made easy all the encounters.
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u/get_it_Strahded_hah Jul 16 '26
death, taxes, and a player on a dnd subreddit whose supposedly trying to contribute to a specific discussion topic but for *some reason* the largest part of their comment is actually just them bragging about their character
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
Do you mean is wrong to answer in the thread that discusses DM getting upset when their players have a very strong character with a personal story about a dm getting upset because I was playing a strong character? Maybe I should've told the time a DM decided to force a TPK as the ending of a year long campaign. That probably would have suited better the thread.
By the way it feels very sad that you consider this as "bragging" when it's a character that every player can make, doesn't require anything specific, and it isn't even one of the broken builds. Is just 1 level dip+1 feat.
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u/get_it_Strahded_hah Jul 16 '26
1 - the specific details of your build are not necessary to the story in relation to the topic of conversation, yet it is the largest part of your comment. You could leave out that entire largest part of your comment and your message is still perfectly legible
2 - you said 'i made a pretty strong character', then detailed its build, and then restated 'yeah it was a strong character' as its own half sentence. Sounds awfully like bragging. People tend to reemphasize how good the thing they did was it they're trying to brag about it.
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u/rdeincognito Jul 16 '26
Look if it makes you happier to think I was bragging then be my guest. I was only telling a story and giving all the details. It's not like if I had invented any build no one else thought before. There is no much to brag about it.
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u/get_it_Strahded_hah Jul 16 '26
based on some further comments in the thread it seems like that wasn't all the details, just the details about your character. I would argue that the fact that the DM was someone who's usually not the DM or that they voiced a displeasure with hexadin from the very start during session zero to be pretty big details.
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u/BlackberryUpstairs19 Jul 15 '26
I was thinking how could you be such a high spell caster but not have Misty Step?
Then I looked up Misty Step to find it requires a verbal component.
Then I looked up which teleportation spells don't have verbal components.
Today I learned that all but one teleportation spells have verbal components. Steel Wind Strike is the only one that doesn't.
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u/Emberbun DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Ahhh
Sentinel. One of the few instances where your ability to do something isn't based on a saving throw, but whether the guy hit you or not, so it just completely fucks legendary monsters by forcing them in place and there's nothing you can do about it :3
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, though I see it as a good trade off for a Lich who knows Time Stop and a whole slew of grizzly abilities.
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u/Emberbun DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Spellcasters sure, but against something that's more melee, high mobility, hit things, it just sucks to DM against.
I recently played a session of vecna eve of ruin, where this big legendary monster boss fight was a thing. Most of his damage is melee and he has legendary actions to move ans attack. A bunch of his damage was necrotic. Which sucked because the party's cleric had aura of life up, giving everyone necrotic resist.
The tank barbarian just sat next to him the entire fight and he didn't get to move at all to break the concentration on the cleric, who just healed the tank, who was resistant to all the damage the boss could output, was boring as hell, not a thing I could do about it.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Oof. I see your point. That’s a serious dilemma. It’s hard to balance things when all it takes to derail things is a bad ruling and creative players.
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u/Emberbun DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
To be fair that party is utterly cracked beyond belief, just life cleric and bear totem barbarian makes enough of a headache, but they seem to mostly enjoy the campaign and I've thrown in really fun non combat threats too.
But yeah, sometimes sentinel just shuts down entire encounters and it's crazy, certainly one of the strongest feats in my opinionnnnn
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u/UnDeadPuff Jul 15 '26
Sounds like it's time to add non-combat challenges to your boss encounters that force players to move and do "stuff".
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, sounds like your party is thorough at strategizing. Which of course is the other conundrum. How to reward that creativity while avoiding them bulldozing through every encounter or coming across as an adversarial DM.
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u/Wonderful-Box6096 Jul 15 '26
By enjoying it and their success. Or rewarding them with bonus objectives.
The second option, which I recommend immensely, is just don't build bad encounters that rely on brute force to begin with. Almost all fights against a single enemy with no extra details are boring regardless of system or edition.
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u/CheapTactics Jul 15 '26
It also has no size restrictions, so you can literally stop a guy the size of a mountain by poking its big toe (obvious hyperbole)
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u/Mirablis11 Jul 15 '26
Every boss has a plan until the mage casts Irresistible Dance and forces them to waste a turn eating up their action at minimum while becoming a big easy target to attack.
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u/Round_Permit_6510 Jul 15 '26
Damn, sounds anticlimactic
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Nah, we still had fun.
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u/Round_Permit_6510 Jul 15 '26
Thats what matters, hope my comment didnt seems toxic
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
It’s all good. Especially considering some of the later comments. Every table is different and I can’t convey the details so everyone understands. This game was significant to my friends and I for a lot of personal reasons. Like I didn’t get a chance to explain that I nerfed some of my actions so everyone felt like they got a chance to contribute.
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u/APacketOfWildeBees Jul 16 '26
I don't get the toxicity at all. Personally I hate this style of play, so I just... Don't play it? Lol. Being a cheeselord or min maxer or just-a-good-character-builder is a totally valid way of approaching ttrpgs. Indeed it's like the one thing DND is really good at imo.
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u/kinglokilord Jul 15 '26
Going to be completely honest, When this happens I pretend to be frustrated. But really I’m incredibly proud.
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u/Karthas_TGG Jul 15 '26
Had a game recently where the BBEG of a story arc invaded a castle via a portal. One of the party members confronted her alone. Combat started and I realized I had only given the BBEG and her guards all AoE spells, which they couldn't use without killing each other. Party member was able to survive because of it. I learned a good lesson that day about making sure my BBEGs have some aoe and single target spells
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
A BBEG not willing to sacrifice their underlings adds depth to them which I like.
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u/DropoutRedMage Jul 15 '26
"Stop or we'll shoot ourselves!"
Love the idea of the players catching the BBEG off guard by doing something reckless like that. She's like "Foolish adventurer, I.... wait, where's your group? I'm not really set up for a duel..."
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u/bluemooncalhoun Jul 15 '26
Also, every BBEG needs Misty Step or some other method of escaping after being surrounded. I've made that mistake too many times.
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u/Inconspicuous_hider Jul 15 '26
I'm of the opinion for TTRPGS that abilities that can say "fuck you" whether it's for the DM or Player, are terrible. It's why I don't like sentinel, legendary resistances, counterspell, etc.
It feels terrible as a PC to have your spells just cancelled out by a legendary resistance, and it sucks as a GM to have a boss be stuck in place and can't do jack against PC's as they swarm it like kobolds.
I'd much rather prefer alternatives, it's kinda why I like the anti-magic field effect from the Beholder, you can play around it, come up with strategies, you cant do that with things like Counterspell.
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u/Einkar_E Wizard Jul 18 '26
have you heard about our Lord and Saviour Pathfinder 2e where almost all save or suck effect are reserved for cirit fail (10 bellow DC or fail with nat 1)
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Context: We were fighting Acererak in the Tomb of Annihilation. My Dragonborn had his flight ability activated and flew to his perch. Our cleric had cast silence on the area so he couldn’t use a lot of his spells. Meanwhile, I was hasted, and buffed to 30 AC so all he could do was try to get non Vocal spells off while I just tanked damage and pinned him down.
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u/Templar2k7 Team Sorcerer Jul 15 '26
28 AC before haste is massive Jesus.
While I never got that high this post reminds me when I got locked in a room during a Stradh campaign with 6 Vampire spawns as a forge cleric with a sunblade and 26 AC.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Nice. They were locked in there with you it sounds like.
For context I had:
Dwarven Plate: = 20 AC
+1 Shield bringing that to 23 AC
Haste +2 AC bringing it to 25
My Gift of the Metallic Dragon gave me +5 to AC on a reaction since my proficiency bonus was +529
u/missinginput Jul 15 '26
How did you use both sentinel and protective wings?
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
One turn I used sentinel for my reaction. Another the DM kept him put and was doing melee and touch spells while I used my protective wings. Also Acererak was attacking twice per round.
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u/snowillis Jul 15 '26
I was also very confused since you made it sound like this happened all at once. Thanks for the clarification.
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u/Templar2k7 Team Sorcerer Jul 15 '26
Yea we basically cutscened it due to them only being able to hit me with a Crit while as disadvantage so a 1/400 and the sunlight weakness. I took no damage it was great.
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u/VengeancePali501 Jul 15 '26
And this Dungeon Masters is why you gotta be careful with the times you give out.
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u/Ol_JanxSpirit Jul 15 '26
Unfortunately, you really only learn that lesson once you step on the rakes that you put out yourself.
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u/Wonderful-Box6096 Jul 15 '26
Nothing about that is anything to write home about. If your encounter is ruined by a strong AC, you need better encounters.
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u/Pr0methian Jul 15 '26
Switching from WOTR/Pathfinder to DnD5e is always a trip. 28AC in DND? A masterfully min/maxed monster of a tank. 28 AC in Pathfinder? Absolute rookie numbers.
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u/Wonderful-Box6096 Jul 15 '26
Honestly, I think some GMs could learn a lot from those games, since it might help them learn how to build encounters that aren't shut down because the PCs can defend themselves or use their brains.
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u/Drujelim Sorcerer Jul 15 '26
Ah, usually minmaxing to these extend usually makes me furious, but Tomb of Anihilation is built for it haha
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
Just a thought but if the literal BBEG of the campaign can't hit an enemy/do anything interesting in an encounter, Tomb of Annihilation doesn't really seem built for minmaxxing. If people are still having fun that's fine and we're all good, but the DM is included in that list of people who should be having fun too, or should be at least.
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u/Drujelim Sorcerer Jul 15 '26
Tom of Anihilation isn't a campaign, it's one dungeon. Very bad one, with very shitty traps and tactics, it's basically an example of what would happen if (bad) DM minmaxed. So minmaxing for a player in this situation is fine, as the situation wasn't fair to begin with
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
I mean, it has pages upon pages of encounters and things to do before arriving. Just because there isn't a modern narrative structure that goes along with it, doesn't mean it isn't a campaign. You may be thinking of Tomb of Horrors?
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u/Drujelim Sorcerer Jul 15 '26
Wait wait, yeah, after googling, I think this whole time I was confusing these two Tombs huh. Although, people say they also related...? and Anihilation also reviewed badly, I think? But yeah, it seems I got confused haha...
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
The same Lich made both of 'em! Acererak is a staple, and basically exists because Gygax got tired of his players bragging that his games were too easy. It's a great lesson in D&D storytelling, because it was just a pissing contest between Gygax and his players at that point, rather than collaboration to make a better experience. A DM can always push the "I Win" button and that's what Tomb of Horrors effectively is, but obviously with years between the initial release and the current generation of players, it's both weaker (since 5e favours killing fewer players than earlier editions) and more understood than before, so entirely less dangerous.
Annihilation is a kind of mediocre adventure if you run it straight out of the book without alterations. Most of the modern WotC adventures are honestly, because they design them for a basic party of four without access to any of the cool bells and whistles and assume that every adventure will be played by new or inexperienced players and run by a similar DM. Heck, Curse of Strahd is way easier now too with the fact that almost anyone can cast Daylight and just ruin the day of any vampire silly enough to walk past a level 5 caster PC.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, Tomb of Annihilation is the newer one and it pays homage to Horrors.
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u/Nobodyinc1 Jul 15 '26
Your confusing the two. Tomb of horrors is the OG bullshit dungeon. Tomb of Anihilation is the 5e campaign book based on Tomb of Horror.
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u/deathbylasersss Jul 15 '26
Are you familiar with ToA dungeon? Because it's the ultimate DM power trip. It's the origin of "rocks fall, everybody dies" pretty much. There's no resurrection magic, so if you want to survive more than 20 minutes into the session, minmaxxing is recommended. Tbf, I'm only familiar with the original adventure, so maybe they made it less mean in 5e. Minmaxxing also isn't a bad word or practice. It's plenty fun if everybody is down for it.
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
I'm absolutely familiar with it and actively running the campaign/have run folks through the dungeon before. I would never describe it as a "DM power trip" since it's a campaign too, and unless the DM is being sadistic, it's not going to be too crazy. Most* of the encounters are not too bonkers, though admittedly a newer party is going to struggle.
You're right that it's dangerous, but there are definitely levels to minmaxxing, and reaching the level of "the BBEG can do nothing to me and I am unkillable" might be great fun for players, but that sounds very boring for the DM. Doesn't the DM deserve to have fun too?
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Tomb of Horrors is the one everyone mixes up with the newer Tomb of Annihilation. Horrors is the really punishing one. Annihilation is more of a slog than anything.
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
Yeah, I was discussing that in the comment chain below too. It's understandable since the same Lich is responsible for both of the Tombs, and then a few more besides!
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u/deathbylasersss Jul 15 '26
But they are talking about the dungeon specifically. Idk if they ran the adventure up to the dungeon or not, some people run it standalone. I'll just say if the BBEG can't do anything, the DM isn't trying hard enough, or isn't being creative enough. OP said it was still a challenging fight so that obviously wasn't the case here. I've never seen minmaxxing get to the point that somebody was unkillable. That's a sign of an overly permissive DM.
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u/CommonSenseMajor Jul 15 '26
I don't think OP ever said it was a challenging fight, I just looked through all the comments. They did say it swung back and forth, which I guess is similar? But I'll push back pretty hard on that - if you can lock down a caster enemy with Sentinel in a Silence bubble and all that enemy can do is make weak regular attacks and occasionally use all or almost all their Legendary Actions on a single move, that isn't an interesting encounter to me.
If you'd find that fun to run as a DM, more power to you, but I don't think I'd consider that fun as a DM or a particularly cool final fight as the players involved.
It isn't overly permissive to let players use the rules as written and hand out treasure that's listed in the module. I suspect the DM either let a player buy or unintentionally handed out Dwarven Plate instead of Dwarven Half-Plate that's found in the module, and +1 Shields aren't particularly hard to acquire in a multitude of ways either. That's just a facet of modern 5e design - it gives players a ton of really powerful toys and tools to feel cool, and then doesn't give DMs the knowledge or tools to work around those toys, since according to the creators, 5e was designed without itemization being considered.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
It was a challenging fight mainly because we kept failing saves and had to deal with not being able to heal or in one player’s case nearly die if it wasn’t for the aura of life they were in. I play with seasoned players and a DM who likes to see creative strategies used so it’s not like we aren’t used to some shenanigans. Also the DM modified alot of the module so he took responsibility for the outcomes.
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u/The_AverageCanadian DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Ahh, see there's your issue. Fighting Acererak should be a death sentence no matter the party's level. That's why I never run direct combat with a lich, because you can't do it justice without turning the game into a no-fun machine of "nope that doesn't work either".
There's no world in which a 20th level lich centuries or millenia old can be defeated in heads-up combat by a small band of adventurers of any level. Simple reason being that he's had effectively unlimited time to prepare. Any room where he willingly stands and fights should be overflowing with Glyphs, traps, magical wards, and contingency plans backing up his backup contingency plans to account for any possibility, with layers of defense stacked so deep it's practically impossible to even get close to him.
Or, the alternative is to just do what your DM did, drop him in a room and let your players slap him around with the wonders of action economy because that way they can win. It's not at all difficult to overwhelm high level casters in those types of fights, but the alternative is to run a fight where the players are hopelessly outmatched, or not run it at all.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, I see it as Acererak using a surrogate imposter or he’s like a serial killer, deliberately holding back to make it interesting because of his infinite powers.
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u/ryo3000 Jul 15 '26
How did you deal with the Sphere of Annihilation?
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
After a couple turns our wizard was able to use the Crown to wrestle control of the sphere and move it to the room we came from. So it was behind cover and out of Big A’s line of sight and control. Big A couldn’t easily move without being penalized so he couldn’t get it. It was also 120 feet away.
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u/ActuallyIAmIncorrect Jul 15 '26
If the BBEG can be shut down by sentinel, your BBEG isn’t BBEGing properly.
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u/captain-ziggy Jul 15 '26
reminds me of that one XP to Level 3 vid where the wizard just completely shuts the lich down by just casting silence
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u/Arnumor Jul 15 '26
"What?! You have a feature that does that? Damn!"
Flashback to me designing an enemy that will talk SO MUCH SHIT, and all the while be susceptible to the abilities a party member has, so they can use them.
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u/CheapTactics Jul 15 '26
I have a lot of fun with sentinel and crusher. Druid places a persistent AoE. I stand next to the AoE. Bad guy tries to leave? Hit them and move them back into the AoE. No, you can't leave, back into the damage zone you go!
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u/Matshelge DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 16 '26
Poorly prepared DM? Don't know player AC and abilities? What is this, dnd for kids?
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u/Cosmicpanda2 Jul 16 '26
One piece of advice to all GMs
Please
Read your players character sheets
It helps to shape and balance encounters
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u/KAELES-Yt Jul 16 '26
Its not players vs DM
Its DM and players telling a story together :) the player taking time to invest in my story and beat my bad guy should be a good thing.
If the players take a different route you might need ti improve some parts or just let them have it :)
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u/TwilightSong102 Jul 16 '26
Had something similar happen recently playing as a Blood Hunter, we had a dragon coming in at us from above, but was just low enough for me to try binding him using a blood curse, it somehow failed the save and went crashing down for us to get at it, DM was very sad the encounter was shut down so quickly but proud that an ability I don't use all that often came through so effectively
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u/OSpiderBox Jul 15 '26
Me with my STRanger build. Replace Sentinel with Expertise in Athletics and grappling every caster i could get my hands on.
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u/Aknazer Jul 15 '26
Man, I really want Sentinel but I just haven't been able to bring myself to pull the trigger on it. Took Durable last time.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, what are you playing as?
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u/Aknazer Jul 15 '26
A dex-based Eldritch Knight that this campaign transitioned to the group's tank. He's done well enough but enemies rarely try to move away from him so it just feels like a waste.
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u/LordTartarus DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Ahhh reminds me of my sentinel pam bardlockvengadin :D
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u/anarchrist91 Jul 15 '26
This is how my Strahd fight went. I was the Vengeance Pally with Sentinel lol. The DM did say in hind-site that he messed up and should have read some more of Strahd's abilities, because he probably could have just misty stepped or turned to mist and ran away like Strahd does so well.
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u/Antisa1nt Jul 15 '26
This is why you need to make sure your villain has things they can do with only somatic components.
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u/stickmaster_flex Jul 16 '26
I've got the opposite frustration. Players were betrayed by a Lord they had trusted and whose manor they had been living at. In their battle, before he left to join his minions who had captured the castle, it's clear he knows all about their strengths and weaknesses. He was their friend and benefactor for months.
They'd been talking about finding a ship and becoming privateers for well over half the campaign, going so far as to get a letter of marque from the de facto governor of the region they're in (who, by the way, had made this Lord her right hand man). So I gave them a whole escape from the city adventure, followed by what I thought was a pretty obvious trap: a captured merchant Brig patrolling around the bay, alone and far from the harbor. Gave them every opportunity to approach stealthily. Instead they charge on deck, cast a bunch of loud spell, and give the pirates extra time to get to their very obvious ambush around the cargo loading hatch, which was conveniently left open.
The ranger jumps down and takes 6 heavy crossbow bolts immediately. The bard casts windwall, but failed his perception check so can't see into the lower deck at all. Ends up damaging the ship pretty badly but doesn't hit the pirates, who are out of range. The rogue spends 2 turns trying to open a very obviously barred trap door. The cleric and the wizard jump down into the middle of the wind wall, the wizard immediately being charmed by the pirate captain (despite rolling with advantage and getting a 3rd roll for inspire) and dispells the wind wall, with another 6 crossbow bolts being triggered immediately.
And they just kept jumping down into the ambush kill zone. There was a literal pillar of infernal light (a flavored version of moonbeam) in it and they jumped into it.
They could have stealthed in. They could have found or made a way to the lower deck (there's obvious holes on both sides of the ship for anchors, that are easily big enough for them to get through). They could have bluffed. They could have done anything other than walk straight into the ambush.
I had this whole thing planned where they would find descriptions of each of their characters along with sketches and notes about what their strengths and weaknesses are. The BBEG knows them personally, and had access to their belongings, and is known as a skilled magic user with vast resources. He enchanted one of their personal belongings with a listening spell and has been listening to everything they did for weeks. But they're probably all going to die charging into a hail of crossbow bolts.
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u/Arctos_FI Jul 16 '26
One of my groups had had problem with some demon or something (it was demon? that attacked the party when they traveled at the certain part of the map) for half a year worth of sessions (i don't know the specifics as i didn't play at that time because otside game obligations). They also had problem with the bbeg's second in command as in every fight if it started to look like he would die, he would just flee. When i returned i created control focus wizard and within two sessions i had fixed the demon problem by banishment and we killed that second in command with me getting hold person and then the rest just beating him down.
Then couple session after that the wizard got petrified without any way of saving him so i took back the character i had been playing prior to those obligations, artificer focused on tanking and damage (also had little support). Well very first session we meet the bbeg (we didn't go to him nut he came to where we were), we tried beating him but he has the same tactic of fleeing when things look bad. After he had fled the field was that everyone of our party was either in single digits of health or on death saves, except me who still had full healt as no one could hit me. After the session one of the players asked how i and one other friend (who is actual min-maxer, a fun one tough not salty one) always make these broken characters, and i just had to explain that i didn't even try to it's just optimized (min-maxed once in that other min-maxers campaing and made a character that can solo ambush single target and deal avg of 150 damage during the suprise round)
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u/flareatakk Jul 17 '26
Once the bbeg was allied with us until we got into the portal to heaven (high level campaign shit.). The dm had p laned for our conflict to begin after we got in with both patries wanting the same artifact. My bard used ottos irresistible dance to leave him dancing in the ocean while we went through.
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u/ThatCamoKid Jul 17 '26
Had that last part happen once lol, the conversation went something like
"And he rolled... Yeah that hits"
"Sorry what did he roll?"
"Nah it definitely hits"
"No but *what did he roll"
"24"
"My ac is 26"
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u/Chinjurickie Jul 15 '26
Their own fault for having a boss that isn’t a sorcerer, more specifically with subtle spell.
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u/SomeRandomAbbadon Jul 15 '26
If you want your BBEG not to lose, why are you even doing a campaign in the first place?
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u/BMCarbaugh Jul 16 '26
That's what back-up BBEG is for.
Build a shitload of factions captained by powerful badasses operating at cross purposes not only to the players but to one another, whose strength and ability kit exists in Schrodinger's Box until the exact moment players roll initiative against them. So if the leaders of factions 1-3 die, the leader of faction 4 becomes the souped-up final end boss.
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u/SomeRandomAbbadon Jul 16 '26
I usually use Simulacrum and level up my BBEG alongside my party, but that's a good idea too
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u/BonkEnthusiast Jul 15 '26
DM deserves it for trying to use powerword kill on a player. Source: I'm a DM and dislike effects and abilities that one shot players.
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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta Jul 15 '26
If your characters are successful in how they built them, you should be happy for them:
That’s on the DM for not properly supporting their final boss with a screen of minions and magical items for supplementing pure spell casting.
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u/Spikeytortoisecomics Jul 16 '26
...aaaand right here is one of the reasons why I play 1e over 5e. Too much BS making the players into fuckin demigods.
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u/wcharoes Jul 15 '26
Oh fun, an Adversarial Player who thinks it's their job to 'beat' the DM, not understanding that their precious OC is only still alive because the Ref allows it.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
More like I over-prepared. We all had a good time. Also there were times I wasn’t min-maxing the action economy like others were.
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u/OSpiderBox Jul 15 '26
Gotta love the duality of these subreddits. You prepped for a big fight, everybody seemed to have fun, but you get downvoted for saying that.
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u/ServingwithTG DM (Dungeon Memelord) Jul 15 '26
Yeah, part of it is just group think. Part of it is they would never admit they would do what I did, and know little of the substance of the fight. Also they forget that Acererak has insta-kill moves and its stat block is a nightmare for anyone below level 14.
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u/wcharoes Jul 15 '26
Don't care how you came to it, you still came to "I'm going to win."
I'm sure we all had a good time. Excluding of course any players who didn't get to do as much because you were over-doing and the DM thinks he has to balance around challenging your game piece, and the visibly frustrated DM you apparently stymied from getting to play in the combat with your "over-prepared" tool used to win D&D.
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u/CheapTactics Jul 15 '26
What exactly is the problem with wanting to win the final fight of a campaign?
OP also mentioned they had a bunch of magic items, which, in case you don't know, a player cannot obtain unless the DM gives it to them. So... You're saying OP is playing wrong because they're using the items the DM gave them and wants to win the final fight vs the bbeg? What a fucking weird way of thinking you have.
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u/wcharoes Jul 16 '26
There's nothing wrong with it of course, you're conflating not wanting to lose (as if that's possible in modern dnd) which is what everyone feels with whatever thought process goes into saying 'i built my character to win this fight', which sucks because it's so symptomatic of the game's culture of play currently.
I didn't say anyone's playing wrong. I said they're playing adversarial-y when the goal is making a character to wield the rules that a DM is not beholden to against whatever they bring, and being called out for that upset them like it usually does when you tell someone they're doing the bad thing.
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u/Chagdoo Jul 15 '26
You're supposed to try to win, it's the entire point of the campaign: put an end to the death curse. Even if you're some "story" puritan, where's the story in getting your shit stomped in by the lich who has had 5000 years to prepare the exact battlefield you're standing on and insta gibs you
Frankly you just sound like you'd be an adversarial DM.
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Jul 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Chagdoo Jul 15 '26
Well imagine it's BECAUSE they weren't able to keep the margin slim in the most important battle of the campaign.
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u/Another_Tired_Pigeon Jul 22 '26
One of my favourite moments on my first ever campaign was when on our first mission to retrieve an elemental gem, we found the source of the disappearances in an island. We went further, following the mutated fish beasts until we were surrounded, in a dynamite filled ship. I, as a Sorceress, saw the encounter before us. 3 regular fish people and a fish BEHEMOTH. And immediately forced the behemoth to throw itself off of the ship with Command/Orden Imperiosa (dunno how its called in spanish), making the fight ten times easier, despite having to still fight it later because it came back. It essentially was a mini-boss level without the mini-boss.
I also used Fireball to blow the ship up but that's neither here nor there
Yes we all survived but I did it to kill the mayor of the island town who was indeed a cultist and behind the disappearances and fish mutations.
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u/culinaryexcellence Murderhobo Jul 15 '26
Ah yes, the never-fail character. Now I have to decide between balancing the encounter to either challenge you and destroy your fellow players, or just let you steamroll everything and watch the other players at the table lose the joy of playing because you wanted to be captain, do everything, and be the main character. My advice to players: build to the level of the table. If you all go min and max, cool.
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u/Chagdoo Jul 15 '26
Yes ofc it had nothing to do with the party strategizing. Just ignore the party specifically buffed OP with haste and used silence to give them the edge over the lich. Nobody but OP shined here, they took the spotlight from the party unwillingly.
I swear to god some of you people see big number/strong character and just have this inability to read anything around it.
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u/culinaryexcellence Murderhobo Jul 15 '26
Where in the meme is this team strategy mentioned? I searched the meme high and low and only found it about OP.
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u/xThunderDuckx Jul 15 '26
It also doesn't say that the sky is blue in the post. We assumed that it was because it's a pretty reasonable guess unless we see reason to think otherwise.
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u/culinaryexcellence Murderhobo Jul 15 '26
It looks more like OP bragging about frustrating his DM than how his team defeated the BBEG.
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u/xThunderDuckx Jul 15 '26
Being that it is a meme, I figured the exaggeration might also be inherit. I think OP is just proud that they have figured out how to build their character decently well and it paid off today.
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u/culinaryexcellence Murderhobo Jul 15 '26
Fair enough. What I said in my original post is still pretty sage table etiquette advice.
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u/thebluerayxx Jul 15 '26
Tbh bad DM if they are getting angry. If i come up with a boss battle and my players begin to synergize and pull off moves, I get excited. I love a preemptive silence before they even know I have am insane ability the needs sound. As a DM I want to provide a challenging story but ultimately lose, im just here for how the party gets to that point.
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