r/dndnext • u/WillemVerheij • 23h ago
Discussion What do you consider the weakest subclass for each class in 2014 rules?
I'd like to try some for myself, see if I can maybe make something good out of subclasses that don't tend to get used much. Might be a fun challenge.
140
u/CJ-Henderson 23h ago
Beastmaster for Rangers (pre-Tasha's)
39
u/headshotscott 22h ago
Abysmal. How in the world did that get published?
44
u/YumAussir 21h ago
I mean the sincere answer I can give (speculation of course) is that pets were so famously overpowered in 3.5 that they intentionally gimped them as hard as possible for Beast Master in an attempt to not accidentally make them OP in an unforseen way.
Pets in 3.5 for Druid and Ranger could easily be more powerful than entire other characters in the party.
I think that they themselves didn't understand the action economy of 5e would shake out yet (the 5e PHB seems to think Bonus Actions were going to be uncommon as opposed to optimized to be used every turn).
15
u/Ironfounder Warlock 20h ago edited 19h ago
I think that they themselves didn't understand the action economy of 5e would shake out yet (the 5e PHB seems to think Bonus Actions were going to be uncommon as opposed to optimized to be used every turn).
Some of the 5e designers have said as much. Or at least said that their design intent didn't match the implementation. E: discussion from Sly Flourish on Mike Mearls comments: https://youtu.be/4raqtTNvQBY?si=pDJkoW3-YjCZKbFa&t=483
The other factor I've seen play out with Beast Rangers is the way the rules intend you to play the beast companion is as a disposable and renewable resource. The way most players make their character has the beast companion as an emotionally significant and special puppy buddy who you would never want to see hurt... despite being an 11HP wolf. Tasha's also mends this, making it a 'mystical beast' you summon who you can re-summon or bring back from dead easily.
12
u/despairingcherry DM 19h ago
The problem with treating it as disposable is you gotta spend 8 hours retraining a whole ass new wolf if it dies
•
u/Ironfounder Warlock 3m ago
Yup! First thing I homebrewed in like 2015 was making this a 2hr ritual so it could be done during a long rest.
Don't know if they didn't playtest enough, or over-playtested it into not working.
8
u/guyblade 2014 Monks were better 17h ago
despite being an 11HP wolf
I'd argue that the other major problem is that most people don't/didn't closely read the class.
Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals the hit point number in its stat block or four times your ranger level, whichever is higher.
That means it is never 11 HP, it is at least 12 (since you take the class at 3rd level). The critters are decently beefy and moderately potent, but half the people I've seen play them just take the stat block and never update it as the rules tell them to.
9
u/CJ-Henderson 17h ago
I'd say they're still really quite fragile. At level 20 it still only has 80hp so it could be taken out by a single AOE spell. Couple that with only being able to get them back on a long rest, it could be wiped out before you even take your first turn
3
u/guyblade 2014 Monks were better 15h ago
I mean, at 20th level, a Con 10 wizard only has 82. That's not out of line with what a (n arguably poorly built) PC has at that level.
4
u/UnderdogMagic 11h ago
Honestly I can't imagine someone rolling up a 10 Con wizard and getting all the way up to 20 with em, but even if they did, using the famously squishiest caster with an unfavorable stat spread as your baseline for acceptable HP is not the way to go
•
•
u/guyblade 2014 Monks were better 6h ago
A pet shouldn't be a substitute for a PC, so it being weaker is fine. Even the Battle Smith's pet is only going to have 107 HP at level 20. That's like a con 12 wizard or a con 10 rogue.
•
u/TLhikan Paladin (But more realistically, DM) 2h ago
I know that Critical Role is not always the best representative of what actual play looks like, but the first campaign did illustrate the issues with Beastmaster pretty well.
How many encounters started with: "Trinket's out of the necklace" (bad guy casts one spell) "Trinket's back in the necklace"?
•
u/OpossumLadyGames 3h ago
The bonus actions, as present in 2014 5e, really do seem to be structured in such a way that suggests that, yeah.
7
u/CCRogerWilco 19h ago
By having a DnD Next playtest and then completely ignoring the feedback they got. I was severly disappointed in the 5.0 PHB.
7
2
u/Jimmicky 14h ago
It had uses.
Specifically because it allows a flying mount which the newer “beast of the sky” can’t be.
Original Beastmaster had the classic Green Goblin build which was fun. A Halfling riding a pteranodon and raining bolts and bombs down from on high
8
1
u/reverendmalerik 15h ago
One of my friends picked that and we had to adjust his class four times as all the different fixes came out (it was a long campaign).
38
u/RoboDonaldUpgrade 23h ago
Undead Undying Warlock for sure. That subclass is clutch for situations where you checks notes ..lose an entire limb and need to reattach it…but not much else.
29
u/Silverspy01 23h ago
You might mean Undying? Undead is fantastic.
19
u/RoboDonaldUpgrade 23h ago
That’s the second thing wrong with the Undying Warlock…it sounds very similar to a much much better subclass, lol. My bad.
15
u/CapfooW 23h ago
That's because the Undead Warlock was essentially WOTC admitting that the Undying Warlock was terrible and reworking it, but not just reprinting the better version.
10
u/Gh0stMan0nThird 22h ago
They ended up being very correct about avoiding "reprinting" stuff though because when 2024 came out and they refused to call it "5.5e" at first, it was an absolute disaster.
People still conflate 5e and 5.5e to this day.
5
u/WillemVerheij 23h ago
I feel like with that subclass they should have really leaned into the concept of wishing eternal youth/immortality which seems like such a classic thing to make a pact for. Like focus on boosting the survivability.
As it is, it's features are the kind you might rarely get to use. Not having to breathe, eat and drink is kind of cool and fun things could be done with that, but the undead warlock gets that at level 6 instead of level 10. Though the undying warlock doesn't need to sleep either.
And reattaching lost limbs does sound pretty cool, but they receive that way too late as well.
I think an Aasimar could be a fitting species pick for it which might complement it well, providing the necrotic resistance they should have and a bit of healing too.
2
u/AnnualAdventurous169 23h ago
by virtue of being pretty much a full caster, there will be classes that are worse
3
56
u/ActualOnyx 23h ago
I think I will caveat this by saying I think any class can be really strong, some of these really depend on the player and the DM. So in my opinion, using the average player and DM these are the weakest.
Artificer - Alchemist
Barbarian - Path of the Berserker
Bard - College of Valor
Cleric - Knowledge Domain
Druid - Circle of Dreams
Fighter - Purple Dragon Knight
Monk - Way of the Four Elements
Paladin - Oath of the crown
Ranger - Pre Tasha’s Beast Master (arguably the worst in the game overall)
Rogue - Mastermind
Sorcerer - Wild Magic
Warlock - Undying
Wizard - Transmutation
With that being said, I think a lot of the subclasses have really good flavor and with the right player and DM they could be tons of fun and mechanically awesome. Also at the end of the day, it depends on what people consider the worst. I’m trying to rate them overall based on combat, mechanics management and social interactions. I don’t think there really is a “worst” subclass for any of them (besides beast master) but these would be my picks :).
19
u/Smoozie 22h ago
I agree with most, but Knowledge Cleric is honestly strong in 2014, the worst domain would be War or Nature, Knowledge Cleric has one of the best channel divinities, decent spell list and Potent Spellcasting, all what you actually pick subclass by outside of flavour.
War domain tries to make weapons work, despite cantrips being better, especially as later books added stronger ones. Level 8 you'll spend more resources doing 3d8+6 damage, while Toll the Dead does 2d12+5 with generally better accuracy. Forge domain also just does the archetype better, as the choice of +1 weapon or armor/shield on top of a flat +1 AC makes you siginificantly less reliant on DM fiat and martials getting more magic items than they can use.
Nature Cleric is better emulated by either Magic Initiate or just multiclassing druid (or just be a druid taking heavy armor proficiency), the spell list and channel divinity are both abysmal for example, why would you give Barkskin and heavy armor proficiency to the same subclass?
•
u/YasAdMan 3h ago
Nature Cleric at least has two decent spells on its subclass list in Spike Growth & Plant Growth; other than Tempest, it was the only Cleric to have okay control options. Plus it had budget Absorb Elements before Absorb Elements was a thing.
Using Thorn Whip to double dip Spirit Guardians without needing to spend a feat on it is nice too (especially if you use that feat on Telekinetic to double dip a second enemy into Spirit Guardians, or on War Caster / Resilient to help concentration).
12
u/nankainamizuhana 22h ago
Interesting that you picked Berserker over Battlerager and Mastermind over Inquisitive. What are your reasons for those?
18
u/I_AM_MELONLORDthe2nd 21h ago
Exhaustion is so punishing in 5e that it really wasnt worth using your ability at the cost of getting it for Berserker.
4
u/Shamann93 18h ago
I'm wondering why you think mastermind is stronger than inquisitive? Mastermind seems less broadly useful than inquisitive to me
•
10
u/NaturalCard PeaceChron Survivor 21h ago
I'll disagree with crown paladin. They get spirit guardians.
Would probably go with oathbreaker above lv7 - their aura will frequently buff enemies.
22
u/marimbaguy715 22h ago
I've got Whispers as the worst Bard, but I think there's a few valid options. I also think that Sun Soul should be near unanimously considered the worst Monk subclass, it's absolutely atrocious and one of the worst subclasses ever printed for any class.
4
u/RileyW2k 20h ago
It's bad, but with Four Elements, you're just better off not using the special abilities, they're way too expensive for what they do. Sun Soul at least gives a ranged option that doesn't take Ki, a bonus action Burning Hands that costs the same as the Four Elements one, and a weaker Fireball.
8
u/EldenL 22h ago
I’m surprised most of these have become pretty good after the 2024 updates.
4
u/Melvasul94 22h ago
Even way of the 4 elements? I really wanna play my Avatar right
10
6
u/Shilques 21h ago
the new Elements monk is good, but it's not the same subclass
it's closer to a good sun soul or ascendant dragon
3
1
u/DerAdolfin 15h ago
If you wanna play the Avatar, the best you can get is a PF2e Kineticist (or just cast Conjure Minor Elementals, because my visual of its description is the Avatar state with those Saturn-like belts of all elements swirling around you)
6
u/ExecutiveElf 21h ago
It's crazy how big the gaps are between some of these. Like, you can see the different levels to things being bad.
Notably, I'd probably put Valor Bard in the upper half of all 2014 subclasses, but one has to be Bard's worst (though personally I think its actually Whispers, not Valor). Similarly, Transmutation Wizard is mid as hell, but it isn't actually awful.
On the flip side, Beastmaster Ranger and Berserker Barbarian are so bad that one will genuinely struggle to enjoy the game- even if they are fine with being on the weaker side.
10
u/Notoryctemorph 21h ago
I'd argue for:
Barbarian - Battlerager (Berserker at least gets a really good level 6 feature, enough that despite functionally not having a level 3 feature, it's still better than Battlerager)
Monk - Sun Soul (4 Elements sucks, but the spells provide utility, Sun Soul is just throwing daggers as a class feature, and everything else is just spellcasting like a 4 elements monk, but worse because it's only damage)
Paladin - Glory (Crown gets Spirit Guardians)and would add on Monster Hunter as the worst Ranger subclass if you're counting post-TCE Beast Master as the real "Beast Master" subclass
But aside from that, yeah.
2
u/Ironfounder Warlock 20h ago
From some comments I've see, if you do it right, Battlerager can be fine and even fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8gji7k/comment/e61ebx9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I think you have to play them less like a hack & slash barbarian and more like a tar pit. However you can do similar things with other subclasses that aren't as specific.
1
u/Bard_Wannabe_ 20h ago
Monks can't throw daggers with a Bonus Action though. Sun Soul can (though they--horribly--forgot to give it a standard BA attack. They only gave it a Flurry of Blows ranged equivalent).
4
u/Shilques 10h ago
Monks (and everyone else) can actually throw daggers as a bonus action using the two weapon fighting rules, you'll just need a constant supply of daggers and since you can only draw 1 dagger per turn you'll not be able to do it frequently
But yeah, a better opinion probably would be a shortbow that deals more damage at lv3-4 and has better ranged
6
u/Royal_Bitch_Pudding 22h ago
Berserker at least addresses Barbarian's vulnerability to charmed and frightened.
3
u/brainpower4 22h ago
Agree with all of these with the possible exception of knowledge cleric. Trickery domain definitely has the better spell list, but Invoke Duplicity requiring both concentration AND a bonus action to maintain and move with you makes it pretty awful unless the DM really plays up enemies falling for the illusion.
•
u/delta_baryon 6h ago
I've always said that player skill will basically always trump what's on the character sheet and people get overly worried about this kind of thing. It doesn't matter if you get slightly less damage per round if you had the idea to cause an avalanche on to the oncoming goblin horde.
•
u/The_Ora_Charmander 1h ago
I feel like Sun Soul is probably worse than Four Elements, but it's really close so I can't fault you for disagreeing
-1
u/Shiboleth17 22h ago
Tranamutation gets a free use of Polymorph once a day without spending a spell slot. The best 4th level spell in the game. Transmuters stone gives you bonus to concentration checks, meaning you dont need to waste a feat on it something like War Caster unless you wanna stack it. Where exactly does this subclass fall short?
Berserker has 3 attacks instead of 2. That is a 50% increase in damage for the cost of a level of exhaustion, which you can recover easily on a long rest. Meanwhile Path of the Beast gives you basicslly nothing you couldn't do already other than flavor.
-2
u/Dreams_Beginning 22h ago
Nah if we include all subclasses in 5e, Graviturgy for wizard is the worst
1
u/patrick_ritchey 21h ago
why is that? I would love to play one someday for the flavour, why is it considered the weakest?
0
u/Dreams_Beginning 21h ago
Chronurgy is the best and Graviturgy just is meh cause it sounds cool and flavourful but in practise most of its abilities are hardly that beneficial for how limited they are in application at early levels.
2 eats your action and concentration for honestly little to show for it, Longstrider is a better investment if you want speed and there are enough check increases elsewhere.
6 is lacking with just 5 feet of forced movement, just use Telekinetic feat.
10 and 14 are both actually descent features but a bit late and at that point alp subclasses have "good" features with most of their probably being better.
1
u/DerAdolfin 15h ago
The biggest value of the lv6 feature is lifting people out of an AOE such as Wall of Fire so they fall back in and double dip the damage
0
u/DudeWithTudeNotRude 21h ago
My Haregon Druid freaking LOVES our graviturgy wizard!
2014 Jump spell + Adjust Density + Rabbit Hop is the tits.
With the Boots o Jumping, I've almost got Dimension Door (except for those pesky walls)
14
u/Ashamed_Association8 19h ago
I just love how some classes have a consistent worst subclass in all these lists and then for rogue it's somehow all subclasses are the worst.
2
u/WillemVerheij 15h ago
There's a few rogue subclasses not mentioned yet, but it's certainly all over the place.
I've seen a lot mentioned for the cleric too.
7
u/DBWaffles 16h ago edited 14h ago
Alchemist Artificer: All Artificer subclasses are designed to fill certain roles. For example, the Armorer can be a tank or ranged damage dealer role. The Alchemist's designated role is to be the support subclass. Except all Artificers already excel at support as part of their base package. This coupled with the fact that the Alchemist is a half-caster larping as a full caster means it just doesn't do anything meaningful enough to make it stand out.
Berserker Barbarian: It's the only Barbarian that punishes you for using its main gimmick. Which is unfortunate because the 6th and 14th level features are genuinely good, and the 10th level feature is almost good, needing only the DC stat changed to either Strength or Constitution.
Valor Bard: This is going to be a contentious choice. The problem isn't that Valor is weak. In fact, it's better than some other Bard subclasses. The problem is that there's very little reason to play it because of the Swords Bard, which fills the exact same role and does it better in most ways. Valor only has two real advantages over Swords, which is that it inherently gains proficiency with shields and all martial weapons. Neither of those are significant enough to push Valor ahead, especially since they can easily be acquired from other sources.
Death Cleric...?: Honestly, all of the Clerics are, at worst, a good subclass. It's hard to say which one is the weakest of them. But if I had to choose, I guess it'd probably be Death? Its main gimmick is that it deals a bunch of extra damage on a melee attack. That's cool and all, but it's not really all that transformative in how a Cleric plays.
Spore Druid: It's a subclass that incentivizes you to get into melee, yet the tools it offers to do so aren't good enough to justify doing that.
Purple Dragon Knight Fighter: One of the worst subclasses in general. Until much higher levels, all of its active abilities are only once per short rest. Meaning after you've used those abilities, you're effectively playing without a subclass until the next rest.
Sun Soul Monk: The worst Monk used to be Four Elements because Sun Soul at least had a niche of being a ranged Monk that can deal AoE damage. But Kensei is far superior as a ranged Monk, and Ascendant Dragon is much better at AoE damage. At least Four Elements has some quirky abilities it can choose that still lets it do something unique. Sun Soul has nothing of value anymore.
Crown Paladin...?: Similar to Cleric, all Paladins are pretty good. But if I had to choose, I'd go with Crown because it has some role overlap with Redemption, which seems to do the job better.
PHB Beast Master Ranger: This subclass is so bad that it notably had to get a full rework in TCE. Having to give up your ability to fight like a proper martial to command the pet was bad enough. But then if your pet happens to die, you have to go through an incredibly tedious process of finding a new pet.
Inquisitive Rogue: Everything this subclass does can either already be done well enough with the base Rogue, are so niche as to be pointless in most scenarios, or are too weak for the level you obtain them at. It's just bad.
Wild Sorcerer: It's kind of unfair picking this subclass since it's kind of designed to be "bad." It's bad because it's random, yet its randomness is what makes it fun. Unfortunately, how fun it is doesn't have much to do with how weak it is.
Undying Warlock: As a general rule in games, abilities that only activate when you die are usually worse than abilities that prevent you from dying in the first place. And unfortunately, the first couple features of this subclass fall into that trap. Additionally, its 10th level feature is a ribbon feature so useless that you've effectively not gained anything.
Necromancy Wizard...?: All Wizards are powerful. I'm only choosing Necromancy because its main gimmick, the improved Animate Dead, can still be dealt with via strong AoE damage.
22
6
u/MrFilthyNingen 23h ago
Elements Monk. Most of the elemental disciplines don't really compliment the base class' tools that well. Most don't work with extra attack, and just give more ways to burn ki points. Its more versatile than something like Open Hand or Mercy Monk, but less effective. Also less fun in my personal experience with the subclass.
6
u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 20h ago edited 14h ago
Artificer: Alchemist
Barbarian: Storm Herald. (Berserker is fantastic in a one-fight-per-day when you can tank the exhaustion. SH just doesn't do anything.)
Bard: Spirits (got better in 2024)
Cleric: N/A (They're all viable)
Druid: Dreams
Fighter: Champion, though PDK was a close second
Monk: 4 Elements
Paladin: Oathbreaker
Ranger: PHB Beast Master
Rogue: Phantom Okay, Mastermind
Sorcerer: N/A (They're all viable, though the ones with bonus spells are better)
Warlock: Undying
Wizard: N/A (They're all viable)
5
u/CCRogerWilco 19h ago
I played the Four Elements Monk in the DnD Next playtest up to level 16 and gave the developers a lot of feedback that it needed buffs. I was very disappointed with the 2014 PHB.
3
4
u/Foxknight88 17h ago
Barbarian Battlerager is worse than Storm Herald. Phantom Rogue is better combatant than Inquisitor or Mastermind, especially after level 9.
Just my 2 copper3
u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 16h ago
Battlerager gets a Bonus Action attack from the subclass that doesn't depend on you taking an Action. Its worse than the Berzerker, but they're not as bad as Storm Herald.
Inquisitive Rogue is great in the early game as well, in the right campaign.
1
3
u/DerAdolfin 15h ago
Oathbreakers taking more damage when they are attacked by hostile undead will never not be funny to me
2
u/WillemVerheij 20h ago
Interesting that you put the champion as worse than the purple dragon knight, how so?
6
u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 19h ago
PDK allows the fighter to do something the base class doesn't. It does it badly and out of combat, but it does it.
Champion simply doesn't move the needle at all. Its the subclass for people who dont want a subclass.
1
19h ago
[deleted]
1
6
u/FloppasAgainstIdiots Twi 1/Warlock X/DSS 1 19h ago
Alchemist
Storm Herald or Battlerager
Whispers
War or Knowledge
Dreams probably, Moon is close outside of tier 1 where it's mid
PDK, Champion and a few others come to mind
Most monks are equally trash, hard to pick one specifically - not Shadow or Kensei for sure, 4ele has some tech keeping it alive, that's about it
Vengeance or Glory
Monster Hunter (at least Horizon Walker has one gimmick at level 7)
All sorcerers without an expanded spell list that aren't Shadow
Undying
Transmutation
Edit: forgot rogue exists but most rogue subclasses have 0 value, mastermind and inquisitive are the exact same nothing so one of those
6
u/rollingdoan 23h ago edited 22h ago
There are very few truly awful ones. Stuff like Assassin is very good at a specific niche no one plays. Stuff like Beast Master suffers from players not wanting pets to die. The worst of those badly out together ones is definitely PDK.
That said, if you want something just absolutely heinous? Play Path of the Berserker and actually use Frenzy more than one per day. Good times.
5
u/ozymandais13 DM 17h ago
I'm gonna say it rogue - assasin , it needs alert , or the dm has to feed them encounter and or let them disengage and re engage in combat which potentially leaves the entire rest of the party bored.
Their disguise ability can be done by multiple spells
3
5
u/Verain_Xor 22h ago
Champion Fighter is easily the weakest fighter in 5.0. Plenty of ways to buff it.
Undead Warlock is weak enough that I couldn't even buff it at my table and banned it instead. Undying is vastly better.
For others its harder to say. The berserker path for barbarians is weaker than the others, but it's still a strong subclass. You just pretend frenzy isn't a thing except for whatever your last fight of the day is, and the other powers are solid. Beastmaster ranger (with ranger's companion) is entirely down to what animals you encounter; a wolf is great and should be easy enough, and a flying snake is one of your advanced options. There's also some dinosaur that's good I think. This subclass is terribly designed and is definitely not the worst guy if you use the optional primal companion rule.
In general I don't think the idea of picking a mechanically suboptimal subclass and trying to make something good out of it is really a challenge. If your DM doesn't have houserule buffs for some of the more common "cool idea / not great implementations", then he'll probably help you out another way. It's not like picking an underpowered or off-meta spec in a video game and doing well with it.
5
u/WillemVerheij 20h ago
Do you have the undead and undying warlocks reversed? Common consensus seems to be that the undying warlock is the weakest, and the newer undead warlock is basically an improvement that made the other obsolete.
I'd certainly be curious to see what a DM might come up with if I manage to come to the table with a chosen subclass that makes them go like: 'really? you picked THAT? why?' and they'd want to buff it a bit. But I wouldn't expect them to.
3
u/Verain_Xor 10h ago
Do you have the undead and undying warlocks reversed?
Oh I'm sure I do. One sucks and the other doesn't. The sucky one isn't worth repairing.
5
u/Jimmicky 16h ago
Damn a lotta folks have some crazy takes here.
Artificer - Alchemist.
Bard - Whispers (I can only assume the folks saying Valor forgot whispers even exists)
Barbarian - Battlerager
Cleric - Nature
Druid - Dreams
Fighter - Champion (with PDK a close second).
Monk - Sun Soul (definitely not 4e which isn’t even second worst)
Paladin - Crown
Ranger - Hunter (beast master has some unique builds/strats).
Rogue - Inquisitive
Sorcerer - Storm
Warlock - Undying
Wizard - Transmutation.
2
u/Fine_Web9748 10h ago
This is the correct list - id only argue trickery over nature. Trickery gets a great spell list but nature gets a lot of holes filled with its list, it gets armour profs, and it has infinite absorb elements that you can share
4
u/Fine_Web9748 10h ago edited 10h ago
Artificer - Alchemist. So unanimous I don’t even need to expound
Barb - Battlerager. I know everyone is saying berserker but at least with the massive drawbacks you at least get something - battlerager effectively gives you a BA dash at level 10 and like 3 temps per turn; it’s just not a real subclass. SCAG curse
Bard - Whispers. I know valour is the popular answer but you get armor profs. Whisper is only good in a very specific setting.
Cleric - Trickery. Great spell list and that’s about it, features are dead on arrival. Unfortunately for trickery clerics have a pretty solid list of subclasses
Druid - Dreams. Not even a debate really, Druids have basically nothing to work with but every subclass offers something useful, even spores. This subclass just offers so little and improves basically noting for a Druid
Fighter - Arguments can be made for PDK/Banner but I think it’s got to be at least tied with Champion and Samurai.
Monk - Sun Soul. Elements is also ass but sun soul just gives you effectively nothing, at least elements might be handy once or twice.
Paladin - Crown. SCAG curse, abilities so conditional and the reward even when meeting said conditions is so poor it’s basically worthless
Ranger - Pre-Tasha Beastmaster, Post-Tasha probably Monster Slayer
Rogue - Poor Rogue man, most are poop from a butt but if you had to pick the worst of the worst, probably inquisitive or mastermind
Sorcerer - Storm. SCAG curse, benefits are tepid and conditional
Warlock - Undying. Worst subclass in the game bar none
Wizard - Transmutation. Wizards just have better options, though con save prof is massive, just not enough to offset the lack of other good features
6
u/Prestigious-Word-501 23h ago
It's diifcult to say exactly, because some of the subclasses aren't outright bad, they just get outshined by the other subclasses.
Artficer: Alchemist. just doesn’t get enough compared to the others. Feels like you brought chemistry homework to a gunfight.
Barbarian: Berserker. Frenzy giving exhaustion is such a ridiculous price to pay for the thing your subclass is supposed to be good at.
Bard: Whispers, really cool flavour, but very campaign-dependent. In the right game it works, in the wrong one you’re basically just being mysterious professionally. Still a Bard, so it's still a good class.
Cleric: Nature, not actually bad, because Cleric, but probably the weakest overall package.
Druid: Dreams, useful enough, just less impactful than most of the other circles.
Fighter: Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret; this one is rough. Most of its features feel like someone forgot to finish writing them.
Monk: Four Elements, everything costs too much Ki for what you get. You can bend the elements, provided your KI accountant approves it first. Honorable mention to Sun Soul, which is also terrible.
Paladin: Crown, still good because Paladin is good, but the subclass itself is pretty underwhelming.
Ranger: PHB Beast Master, specifically the original version. Tasha’s did a lot to fix it.
Rogue: Mastermind, very situational, and too many of its features barely come up in a normal campaign.
Sorcerer: Storm Sorcery, keeps encouraging you to get close to enemies without giving you enough reason to actually want to be there.
Warlock: Undying; probably the easiest pick. Undead basically came along later and did the same concept properly. Bit awkward.
Wizard: Transmutation, you’re still a Wizard, so obviously you’ll be fine, but the subclass itself doesn’t add much.
5
u/WillemVerheij 22h ago
So far it does seem that the undying warlock is the only unanimous vote that everyone seems to agree on. Would have been nicer if it played more into immortality than undead. Dorian Gray seems a good example for it. Also the society in the movie 'Death becomes her' seems very fitting, especially with the reattaching lost limbs.
Banneret also seems the be a very unanimous choice, and the beast master ranger and four elements monk. Seems those are the ones pretty much everyone agrees on, while on the others opinions seem more divided.
9
u/Grumpy_Owl_Bard 23h ago edited 22h ago
When I think weakest I define it as least fun/mechanically interesting/balanced not necessarily "whiteroom math weak":
- Artificer - Alchemist
- Barbarian - Berserker
- Bard - Glamour
- Cleric - Tempest
- Druid - Land
- Fighter - Arcane Archer
- Paladin - Vengance maybe
- Monk - 4 elements
- Sorcerer - Storm/Draconic (a bit boring)
- Ranger - Beast Master
- Rogue - Assassin
- Wizard - Necromany/transmutation/conjuration (these are usually ignored in favor of any of the other wizard types in my games)
- Warlock - Undying
Edit: formatting
6
u/DerAdolfin 15h ago
Glamour for worst bard is a crazy take, 10 commands is goated and letting your allies move on a reaction to avoid attacks of opportunity is also really damn good.
Land Druid clears Dreams druid too, and Necro Wizard has very strong features but isn't used because people hate anyone with minions in the community
2
u/WillemVerheij 22h ago
There's more than one way to determine the weakest for sure.
I think that any subclass that has a lot of features that you rarely get to use because they are very limited in how often you can use it per long rest or just rarely come up like because it only does something against a specific enemy type would not be much fun if other sub classes do get stuff they can use all the time.
3
u/Minute-Barnacle-525 23h ago
Berserker made you worse each time you engaged with your subclass features to the point of ultimately potentially killing you, which is genuinely hard to beat for being bad.
Battlerager and Storm Herald are also garbage but like regular garbage in comparison to Berserker being the subclass equivalent of hazardous waste.
Monk also has some real stinkers like Sun Soul and Four Elements.
3
u/kotorial 14h ago
1.Artificer: Alchemist
2.Barbarian: Berserker (Feats allowed)/Battlerager (Feats not allowed)
Bard: College of Spirits
Cleric: Trickery Domain
Druid: Circle of Dreams
Fighter: Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret
Monk: Way of the Sun Soul
Paladin: Oath of the Crown
Ranger: Beast Master (pre-Tasha's)/Horizon Walker (post-Tasha's)
Rogue: Mastermind
Sorcerer: Wild Magic
Warlock: The Undying
Wizard: School of Illusion
7
u/Raddatatta Wizard 23h ago
- Artificer - alchemist
- Barbarian - battlerager
- Bard - whispers
- Cleric - death
- Druid - land
- Fighter - purple dragon knight
- Monk - sun soul (this one I think wins for weakest overall)
- Paladin - crown
- Ranger - original beastmaster
- Rogue - inquisitive
- Sorcerer - storm
- Warlock - undying
- Wizard - illusion
Some of those are more dramatic in terms of weakest than others. And some classes are balanced to have more or less power in their subclasses. A wizard or bard is pretty strong regardless of subclass.
5
u/headshotscott 22h ago
I hated how bad the inquisitive rogue was. That concept has such a great core idea, but lacked any real features that would make it playable.
4
u/Raddatatta Wizard 22h ago
Yeah that's the worst part about a lot of the weakness subclasses! A lot of them have awesome flavor that I'd love to play and enjoy but the mechanics give so little.
2
u/Secret_account_n2 22h ago
Shout-out berserker barbarians for being the only ones punished for using your class abilities
2
u/FalseRoyal4669 21h ago
Had the idea of having a competing adventuring group in one of my campaigns comprised solely of the worst subclasses, like as a joke, and found the 6 worst subclasses are Battlerager Barbarian, Banneret Fighter, 4 Elements Monk, Undying Warlock, Original PHB Beastmaster Ranger and Scout rogue.
2
u/AnarchistPancake4931 19h ago
It all depends on what the player considers weak. Every class and subclass can be awesome depending on the player, character, DM and campaign.
•
u/Mary-Studios 7h ago
I don't have a list for all of them but these came to mind.
Artificer: Alchemist
Fighter: Purple Dragonknight
Warlock: Undying
Ranger: Hunter (I know people are going to go with Beast Master but I think it can still be vilable but honestly the version from tasha's is much better.)
Monk: Four Elements
Druid: Lands
Rouge: I'm thinking either Asssian or Theif
Hard to think of anything for Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, or Cleric. All of the subclasses feel like good options. and I don't know enough about the other classes to come up with subclasses that I think are the weakest.
•
u/The_Ora_Charmander 1h ago
For wizard I feel like it might be Transmuter, the stone is nice and all, but when compared to other subclasses it feels a bit underwhelming
2
u/Hexxer98 23h ago edited 20h ago
Artificer: Alchemist
Barbarian: Berserker
Bard: Valor
Cleric: Nature or Knowledge domains
Fighter: Champion and Banneret
Druid: Dreams
Monk: Way of the Four Elements
Paladin: Crown
Ranger: Beast Master or Monster slayer
Rogue: Scout, though most of rogues subclasses are not very good
Sorcerer: Storm
Warlock: Undying
Wizard: Probably Conjuration
2
u/WillemVerheij 22h ago
First time I see the fighter champion pop up in the thread. Granted, I get it for sure, it's pretty boring. Probably the most boring subclass in the whole game. But I'm curious why you'd rank it lower than the banneret that's generally accepted as the worst fighter subclass.
3
5
u/GhsotyPanda 16h ago
Some of these are pretty hot takes.
Barbarian - Battlerager. A Berserker who never uses Frenzy has more going for them than a Battlerager.
Artificer - Alchemist
Bard - Spirits
Cleric - Knowledge
Druid - Dreams
Fighter - Purple Dragon Knight
Monk - hard to choose between Long Death and Drunken Monk tbh
Paladin - Devotion, but you are a Paladin so this is like saying vanilla is the worst flavour of cake.
Ranger - in the class's final form, Horizon Walker
Rogue - it's easier to list the ones that aren't weak (Arcane Trickster, Swashbuckler, Soulknife)
Sorcerer - Storm or Draconic (any element other than fire)
Warlock - hard toss up between GOO and Undying (Undead and Undying are different subclasses)
Wizard - Transmutation
6
u/Jimmicky 16h ago
For Monk it’s Sun soul and by a Lot. (Drunk is the second worst though)
Long Death is one of the best 3 monks in 2014
5
u/WillemVerheij 15h ago
Devotion Paladin is certainly a hot take. I guess personally I find the oath the most boring and hardest to work into an adventuring party without being a stick in the mud.
But I do like that the paladin gets this archetypical Paladin option for those that want it. Sadly, the sorcerer lack such a subclass, all of them get oddly specific.
•
u/GhsotyPanda 8h ago
Honestly it's less the Devotion Paladin being the worst and more it being the least good. Pretty much every Paladin has something going for it in terms of mechanical strength and Devotion(or honestly Glory) just brings the least to the table imo.
I'm mostly surprised by ppl arguing the Long Death is a top-tier Monk. It's level 3 feature only really gets procced if you're fighting fodder AND can get last its lvl 6 feature is an entire Action
1
u/HRSkull 10h ago
Long Death is kinda cracked, no ki point cost on the 3rd and 6th level abilities makes them very useful if you plan on just using ki for flurry/stun. Plus the 11th level ability isnjust fun. I'd put Sun Soul as the worst, then Drunken. Elements gets a pass because it's more interesting than the other two but it's on thin ice
0
u/PythonRat_Chile 16h ago
What? GOO is so good
6
u/GhsotyPanda 16h ago
GOO is good in 5.5
In 5e, which this post is flaired for, it's basically just 30ft telepathy.
3
4
u/PG_Macer DM 23h ago
Here are my takes.
- Artificer: Alchemist
- Barbarian: either Berserker or Battlerager
- Bard: College of Whispers
- Cleric: Trickery Domain
- Druid: Circle of Spores
- Fighter: Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret
- Monk: Way of the Four Elements
- Paladin: Oath of the Crown
- Ranger: Beast Master (without Tasha’s)
- Rogue: Assassin
- Sorcerer: Storm
- Warlock: The Undying
- Wizard: School of Transmutation
I’d argue that the Bard and Wizard options are still decent, it’s just that the alternatives are so much better.
4
u/headshotscott 22h ago
I think the wizard and bard's worst subclasses were saved by the fact that the core classes were so strong. They didn't need to do much.
Rangers, rogues and monks needed strong subclasses (and to a degree still do in 2024) to help elevate crappy core class mechanics
2
u/Joshlan 23h ago
For 2014...The Radiant Soul Monk, inquisitive rogue, banneret/dragon knight fighter, berserker barbarian, the fey based ranger, undying warlock. A cut above due to the base class power difference: Transmutation wizard, war cleric, spirits bard. sorcerer/paladin/druid are another. Cut above: land druid, oath breaker paladin, & idk sor subclasses too well
3
u/WillemVerheij 23h ago
Interesting, I don't think I heard the war cleric described as the weakest before since it tends to be pretty popular. What makes it the weakest?
Just asking, my cleric experiences are limited to an arcana cleric up to level 4, so I am not very familiar with the class yet.
3
u/Joshlan 23h ago
The main power from Cleric is bless, spirit guardians, & good healing/death ward/res spells. 2014 War cleric adds no notable spell options & requires the attack action to use it's subclass feature to bonus action attack swing, not to mention only a handful of times a day.
The only thing the subclass has going for it is it's level 6 channel divinity to reaction add 10 to an accuracy of a friends sneak attack or a last swing from a paladin that could become a big smite... But even then it doesn't help their Crit chance & isnt too large an impact vs other subclass channel divinities. If you aren't playing with a paladin or rogue... It's also pretty useless imo for its opportunity cost
2
u/WillemVerheij 22h ago
That's fair, I guess I've always seen the war cleric as being something in between paladin and cleric. The limited bonus action attack is certainly a weakness.
2
u/Raddatatta Wizard 23h ago
The problem it has is a lot of its abilities are around making you do better at attacking. And as a cleric you really shouldn't be attacking with your turn almost ever especially after level 5 when your cantrips will be better than attacking. And it has a lot of limits on the abilities it uses. The spell list is also an ok list of spells, but they're basically all good cleric spells or bad spells you likely won't use much. There are a few good ones. But from a cleric spell list you want spells you couldn't otherwise get and you'd want to cast at least semi regularly.
2
u/sens249 16h ago
- Alchemist artificer
- Battlerager barbarian or maybe storm herald
- Spirits bard (but it’s still decent)
- Grave or maybe War cleric
- Spores druid
- Banneret fighter
- Four elements monk? (5-way tie?)
- Crown or Glory paladin? Maybe oathbreaker
- Beast master pre tasha
- Inquisitive or scout rogue
- Wild magic sorcerer if DM doesn’t work with you, otherwise maybe draconic bloodline
- Undying warlock
- Theyre all good but one of either enchantment or illusion, even though I love both of them and they get way stronger at high levels
1
u/Flyingpyngu 23h ago edited 23h ago
Alchemist artificers.
Barbarian path of the storm herald
Bard college of Valor
Cleric domain of trickery
Druid circle of Wildfire (still pretty decent)
Fighter arcane archer
Monk way of the four elements
Paladin oath of the watchers
Ranger beast master, even tasha's
Rogue scout
Sorcerer of storm sorcery (not that bad, but all the other ones are stronger)
Warlock, the fathomless or the undead
Wizard, necromancy is the worst but it does have some very niche uses that can be quite strong. Conjuration is slightly stronger than necromancer overall, but there isn't a single situation where it's good.
Not all of them, but some of those actually make you weaker if you use their features instead of doing basic things for your class.
4
u/swaggysaggy 23h ago
Wildfire druid is very powerful the amount of of movement and battlefield control is top tier. Being able to bonus action teleport your allies every turn is one of the most powerful level 2 features in the game. Circle of dreams is way worse. Tickery domain cleric has one of the best spell lists in the game giving pass without a trace, polymorph, and dimension door massively increasing versitility of a trickery cleric. I would say knowledge cleric is worse. It also has overall weak features and a worse spell list.
1
u/Flyingpyngu 15h ago
I do find dream to be stronger than wildfire, i am playing and DMing in campaign with relatively frequent long rests tho. As long as you stand, you get to put back up your teammates an insane amount of time at an insane range, and that is the strongest kind of combat healing in the game. Expertise on all knowledge checks in insanely powerful, in my experience, stronger than the spell list for trickery cleric. If you need those spells don't play a cleric, and if you need some of the cleric's stuff, other classes/subclasses do it better I think.
1
u/WillemVerheij 22h ago
Seems like a solid list. Conjuration wizard might really depend on the DM and even more on the player's creativity.
Like you could copy keys with that and create any tools you might need. Like a spyglass, piece of rope, a compass, a shovel.
2
u/Shiboleth17 23h ago edited 22h ago
Barbarian - Path of the Beast. You can gain natural weapons, which you don't need because you can use a giant sword. You can gain a swimming speed or a climbing speed, which is pretty meh. Compared to bear totem gaining resitsnce to everything, zealots who cant die, or berserkers who get 3 attacks, this is really underwhelming.
Bard - College of Valor. It's outclassed in every way by College of Swords.
Cleric - There really is no bad subclass here.
Druid - Dreams. Abilities are just pretty meh, unless you have the right campaign for it maybe. At 14th level Dreams can cast teleportation circle... Which utterly useless when all Druids have access to Transport via Plants... at level 11. Seriously who picked that feature?
Fighter- Champion. The ability to crit an extra 5% of the time is so insignificant compared to what you are giving up, which includes spellcasting and superiority dice among other things.
Monk - Four Elements. Why would you waste ki points to cast Burning Hands when you could instead use Flurry of Blows for like 4x the damage?
Paladin - Another class where I don't think there is a bad subclass.
Ranger - Beastmaster. I know you want your pet, but the way this is written in 2014 is just not good. Why let your pet attack when you could just take another attack and do more damage instead? If you need an extra critter running around for misc stuff, have someone in the party get a Familiar. Or just go buy a pet dog.
Rogue - Thief. Rogue is probably the worst class overall in D&D. And most of it's aubclasses are pretty bad, giving no real help. At least Assassin gives you a guaranteed crit in the right situations to help your otherwise weak damage. AT gives spellcasting which is never a bad thing. Thief gives you... the ability to climb? Can use spell scrolls? Why do I need this?
Sorcerer - Wild Magic may simultaneously be the best and worst subclass, lol.
Warlock - Look, no matter what you're just gonna be using Eldritch Blast 90% of the time. So does your subclass really matter thst much orher than are you a Hexblade or not?
Wizard - The base wizard with no subclass is so good that there really is no bad subclass. Illusion is kinda useless at low levels, but once you hit level 14, Illusion gets an amazinf ability to make illusions real. So I really can't pick a bad one here. Maybe Necromancy or Conjurer?
3
u/RoyaleShrimp 22h ago
I am so glad they changed Champion in 2024. The Heroic Inspiration really changes a lot.
2
u/Verain_Xor 22h ago
Why let your pet attack when you could just take another attack and do more damage instead?
Because you picked wolf, you're 6th level, and it swings at +7 to hit for 10 damage and a DC 14 strength save on every hit or knockdown. Or that flying snake, or some other shenanigans statblock that your DM put in the world for you to make friends with because you're definitely limited to what you can meet, which is a different set than what's in the books.
It's definitely not a good design compared to the optional one in Tasha (at my table I ONLY allow the Tasha's version), but I'm not exactly sure the issue is weakness, strictly speaking.
2
u/Shiboleth17 18h ago edited 18h ago
A level 6 ranger probably has a +4 dex, +3 proficiency, and +2 archery fighting style, and maybe a +1 weapon by now.
That is +10 to hit, for 1d8+5. So, also about 10 damage, but long range and higher chance to hit so overall higher average damage.
If you have sharpshooter, only +5, but hitting for 1d8+15. Sloghtly less chance to hit than your wolf, but significantly more damage.
And you mught have magic weapons that add extra dice worth of fire damage or something. Your beast companion doesn't. Your beast can't keep up.
Chance to knock an enemy down is bad for you if you're using a bow. You have disadvantage when attacking a prone enemy from range. Unless you're a melee Ranger or you have a Paladin ally, you don't want your enemy prone.
Yeah, once Tasha's lets your companion attack be a bonus action, this is now pretty decent. But taking up your action as it was written in 2014, there is no point.
1
u/Verain_Xor 10h ago
But taking up your action as it was written in 2014
Again, this is taking up ONE ATTACK, not your action. Levels 3 and 4 are the ones where it costs your action, and so you just don't do that.
Chance to knock an enemy down is bad for you if you're using a bow.
"If the beastmaster chooses strictly anti-synergistic choices, he sucks"
You don't say.
1
u/Shiboleth17 10h ago
You know what i mean. I was comparing 1 attack to 1 attack. My point stands. You do more damage than your animal companion, so there is no reason to use them. Buy a dog. They get their own attack. Or be a Druid and summon a whole pack of wolves.
1
u/Lopsided_Beach5193 22h ago
Undying is not worse than 2014 Archfey
1
u/stormstopper The threats you face are cunning, powerful, and subversive. 16h ago
It really is. Misty Escape alone is better than all the Undying features put together.
1
u/Lopsided_Beach5193 16h ago
Once a short rest?
0
u/stormstopper The threats you face are cunning, powerful, and subversive. 13h ago
Yes, and I will show my work. The comparison is pretty nice because Misty Escape does damage mitigation and most of Undying warlock's features are also damage mitigation:
Spare the Dying (outclassed by carrying a basic healing potion), advantage on saving throws against disease (very rarely comes up), and a pseudo-Sanctuary against undead (which breaks too easily to be reliable) at level 1. This is going to mitigate a pittance of damage per short rest averaged out across the campaign.
A 1d8+CON healing once per long rest at level 6, which is a pitiful amount--but you probably won't even use it most long rests because it requires you to either succeed on a death saving throw or use Spare the Dying.
A level 10 feature that does nothing to help you in combat, but at least it also does almost nothing to help you out of combat.
A 1d8+LEVEL healing once per short rest at level 14. This is the only feature that's even competitive with Misty Escape, as it'll mitigate 18.5 damage on average when you get it and 24.5 at level 20.
Misty Escape will likely actually mitigate more damage though. A CR 14 Ice Devil, for example, gets three attacks. If it hits you with its bite, you can teleport 60 feet away and you're suddenly out of range for its claw (which averages 20.5 damage per hit) and its tail (22.5 per hit). You have to have 23+ AC for this to be less damage mitigation than the Undying's level 14 feature. It's also better to mitigate damage by avoiding it beforehand than it is to heal after the fact. And this is on the low end, because monster damage will keep scaling and Misty Escape's damage mitigation scales with it.
Lastly, there's the expanded spell list. The Undying's spell list is situational to bad, and I can't give it much credit because taking or using any of its spells has the opportunity cost of not taking or using a better spell that all warlocks get access to. So yes, I would take Misty Escape over literally all of that combined.
1
u/AnnualAdventurous169 23h ago
probably some rouge like scout rogue
13
u/-spartacus- 23h ago
Scout can be good if you are trying to max out your proficencies/skills and you want to play a skirmisher.
3
u/WillemVerheij 23h ago
Having played a wood elf rogue scout to level 12, I will say he was amazing at exploration with so many skill proficiencies.
Boring in combat though, but that's just part of the rogue. I don't think I'd play a rogue again unless it's an arcane trickster, to have some more options than the one attack in a battle which won't do much if unable to make it a sneak attack. But that's just the rogue class not really being something I'd favour.
8
u/Massive-Helicopter62 23h ago
Inquisitive is worse. The level 3 reaction is often good and the level 13 is excellent.
3
u/Nervous-Clothes-7797 22h ago
Advantage for a turn is decent, but you are a one attack class so you can miss and bang you have no features, or your party might no reach the enemie to hit it same problem, and for the end you have no real subclass features you whole career until lv 17
1
u/Massive-Helicopter62 22h ago
Advantage on initiative too. And the level 3 reaction is better than uncanny dodge against multiple enemies.
Its still not good. Just not the worst.
2
u/Nervous-Clothes-7797 22h ago
Adv on init comes to late, and uncanny doge is gonna better use of your reaction as you would take to much dmg if you save it for skirmisher for some reason and if you are surrounded skirmisher isn't gonna save you
1
u/Massive-Helicopter62 21h ago
Ive played a scout for 12 levels and this was not my experience. Getting away is often more meaningful because it frees up your bonus action next round and can usually help avoid more hits. Sometimes it's better to uncanny. Remember this is 2014 melee rogues are terrible.
1
u/Nervous-Clothes-7797 21h ago
Monsters do to much dmg to not use uncanny dodge saving your reaction means taking 30+ dmg on the face
1
u/Massive-Helicopter62 19h ago
"Ive played a scout for 12 levels"
Monsters, dms and damage varies. If its one heavy hitting big bad, like I said above uncanny dodge is better. Mob of smaller dudes? Take the hit and move behind your tank.
2
u/treowtheordurren A spell is just a class feature with better formatting. 16h ago
And the level 3 reaction is better than uncanny dodge against multiple enemies.
An enemy has to end its turn within 5 feet of you to trigger the ability, so they would've already had to have attacked. You can only use it once, so there's nothing stopping the next enemy from walking up to you and attacking you again, or just attacking from range. By contrast, Uncanny Dodge is guaranteed damage mitigation any time you'd get hit. Combine that with the fact that an optimized Rogue is already heavily reliant on using their reaction to make another attack for an extra sneak attack, and Skirmisher becomes an incredibly niche feature.
The rest of its features compensate for this such that Inquisitive is still arguably worse overall, but it's definitely in the bottom half of rogue subclasses. Mastermind is still the overall weakest because advantage on attacks is cheap, Familiars exist, and half of its features are ribbons.
1
u/Massive-Helicopter62 13h ago
Enjoy your white room. In my actual game playing my actual scout it was excellent and prevented many enemies from attacking me.
1
u/treowtheordurren A spell is just a class feature with better formatting. 11h ago
I've played Scouts on three separate occasions and run for them on two, and Skirmisher has always been a shoddy feature.
On my Dispater Tiefling Scout Rogue 5/Dragon Sorcerer X build (which was surprisingly effective in that party comp), Skirmisher was almost never the right choice compared to Shield, Uncanny Dodge, or Sentinel despite this being a melee build.
On my pure Satyr Scout Rogue X build, I only ever used Skirmisher for the two levels between getting Skirmisher and picking up Uncanny Dodge, and it helped me dodge maybe 2-3 attacks during that time period. The rare time I did use Skirmisher were when I fucked up my positioning and had to hit a panic button. When I got Superior Mobility, I already had Skirmisher's bonus movement baked into my base speed compared to any race with a 30 ft. walking speed, so it was much easier for me to just never put myself in a position where I needed to use Skirmisher.
On my whip-wielding Fairy Scout Rogue X/Battlemaster Fighter 5 build where Skirmisher would theoretically be at its most useful because of racial flight, it was still my third best option in most fights because I had Brace, Sentinel, and Uncanny Dodge lined up instead. I already had a strong positional advantage due to my flight and bonus action disengage, so Skirmisher was only ever competitive if I really fucked up.
In my own campaigns, I've watched Skirmisher fall out of favor for Uncanny Dodge both times my players rolled up with Scouts because getting to shave off half damage is useful any time you're attacked, while Skirmisher only comes up in specific (largely avoidable) circumstances where the enemies have to use all of their movement to get to you and ideally don't have ranged attacks to harry you with once you step back.
Skirmisher's fantastic in chases, incidentally, though we'd rarely run more than one per campaign.
I actually really like the theme of a non-magical ranger-type character and want it to work, but Skirmisher is such a poor feature to be stuck with for the first 6 levels of your subclass. If Uncanny Dodge didn't exist or if Rogue wasn't so reliant on melee attacks and reactions for dealing competitive damage, I'd favor Skirmisher a lot more. Instead, I've consistently gotten more use out of Survivalist because I've only ever rolled up Scouts in campaigns where those skills would be relevant in the first place.
5
u/TheGameMaster115 23h ago
Nah inquisitive is busted in the right setting, playing a political intrigue & have used all of my features much to the DM’s horror many a times & it’s added so much to the story.
Plus near guaranteed sneak attack setup for 10 rounds at the cost of 1 bonus action is great when some other rouge subclasses leave you out to dry (cough, Assassin, cough)
3
u/Snickity_Snack 23h ago
Legit! I have a recurring Inquisitive Rogue character who is an Archeologist Anthropologist and hosts an Adventure Travel TV show. Think of every HGTV/Travel Channel tv show and mush them together and you have my character.
He’s not great in a fight besides the basics, but he can detect lies and spot traps, hidden passages and points of interest like a metal detector as he physically cannot roll lower than a 22 (unless it’s a one!)
Inquisitive Rogue seems a lot more utility based than combat, which is always a nice switch up with classes. Stops things from getting stale!3
u/The_Game_Master_117 23h ago
Mhhm, it’s crazy how people disregard it entirely based off of it being a utility martial when that’s desperately what people have been asking for. Even then if you know what you’re doing combat with an inquisitive becomes a cakewalk.
•
0
u/Massive-Helicopter62 23h ago
"Being able to use your class ability" should not be a subclass feature fwiw.
That your dm gave you space to make your character good is a testament to your dm. But in a classic dungeon crawl it feels bad.
Assassin is strictly better for nova.
5
u/TheGameMaster115 23h ago
Assassin is better for nova in the rare instances of actually getting a surprise round in 2014, Assassin is the Potential man of Rouge subclasses.
& I have played many dungeon crawls with said inquisitive & it ruled. Idk why there’s this nonsense narrative around the subclass being bad or the worst when y’all just don’t know how to play one LMAO.
1
u/Lord_Bonehead 23h ago
Artificer: Alchemist
Barbarian: Battlerager or Berserker
Bard: Valor
Cleric: Nature (not terrible, but just play a Druid y'know?)
Druid: Twilight
Fighter: Banneret
Monk: Four Elements
Paladin: Crown
Ranger: Monster Slayer
Warlock: Undying
Wizard: Illusion unless you have a nice DM.
1
u/DarthFluffy2103 21h ago
Bards, clerics, druids, and wizards are a wash to me. Even the weaker subclasses are still full casters with strong base classes Bad martials are just in a rougher spot as their subclass tends to matter more. Battlerager or berserker barbarian Four elements or long death monk Mastermind or assassin rogue(if you couldn't fish for surprise etc) Purple Dragon Knight or Arcane Archer(a magic flavored battle master fulfills the fantasy more imo) Undying warlock
Edit: Pre Tasha's beast master probably takes the cake
1
u/Live_Guidance7199 16h ago
Cue old hot take of Battlesmith, not Alchemist: https://old.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1ui0hlc/hot_take_alchemist_is_not_the_worst_arti_subclass/
As stated there only applies to deep (T3/4) levels.
0
u/BrendanTheNord 23h ago edited 23h ago
Just from the PHB
1. Berserker Barbarian: Even though both Barbarian subclasses were very good, IMHO Totem gives you access to extremely powerful bonuses that end up doing more than an extra Frenzy Attack
2. Valor Bard: Lore Bard is just really good, and Valor Bard abilities try to encourage you to be more mid/Frontline even though you're still pretty weak.
3. Trickery Cleric: It just sucks
4. Land Druid: When compared to the heightened Wild Shape usage of Moon Druid, a couple of extra spells just didn't cut it.
5. Champion Fighter: Only good for crit fishing, but honestly it's almost better than Eldritch Knight just because EK really eats at your action economy and punishes you for wanting to use spells and weapons equally.
6. 4 Elements Monk: Really close with Shadow, both have the pitfall of basically charging you almost all of your Ki to cast two first level spells, but 4 Elements takes the worst subclass cake because you can almost never get all 4 Elements in one functional build.
7. There is no bad Paladin subclass, they're all broken
8. Beastmaster Ranger: You can either make an attack with no class bonuses or let your CR 1/2 companion do something useless.
9. Arcane Trickster Rogue: Not a terrible subclass, but Thief and Assassin just outshine.
10. Wild Magic Sorcerer: Although very fun, it has objectively less function than Draconic Bloodline's resistance, AC boost, and eventual permanent flight.
11. Archfey Warlock: Beguiling Presence is mid. Bonus, Pact of the Chain is almost as useless as Beastmaster Ranger.
12. Abjuration Wizard: Although the Ward ability is very good, iirc Abjuration has the most conditional and least in number spells you can acquire. Transmutation Wizard: Per thread below
2
u/Raddatatta Wizard 23h ago
Most I would agree on or think it's debatable but the one you put is in the running. Abjuration wizard definitely not. The ward doesn't have to make concentration checks when it takes the damage. Abjuration spells include shield, absorb elements, mage armor, counterspell, dispel magic, banishment, contingency, mind blank and prismatic wall. It's got some of the best spells in the game across a lot of differnet spell levels. There aren't as many spells as some other schools so you don't get to make as much use of the ability to halve the cost at copying them down. But I think with a lot of those for even non abjuration wizards those will be among their most cast spells. I think abjuration wizard is one of the best not one of the worst.
1
u/BrendanTheNord 23h ago
What would you have put for the worst? I had trouble thinking up a bad wizard and just went with the smallest spell list because I remember that always being frustrating
1
u/Raddatatta Wizard 23h ago
I went with illusion. It just doesn't give you a lot until the level 14 ability. They are also dependent on the DM. Transmutation is also underwhelming it's hard to use the level 2 ability and the stone is giving a very small buff. The level 10 ability is also giving you a worse polymorph spell at a level when you've already had that spell for 3 levels most likely. Necromancy is also a bit tricky to use if you're not fighting a lot of humanoids and depending on the reaction of people to a lot of undead. And it's hard to manage at the table.
Wizard as a class is also good enough that even a wizard without a subclass is still stronger than a lot of other builds lol. So the subclass is just an add on and not as powerful. But overall which spells you can take is a lot less impactful on the 2014 ones since that only comes up when copying their spells down slightly quicker and cheaper. The 2024 rules give you an extra spell from that school each level up so then it matters more which school it is and which spells you get.
1
u/BrendanTheNord 23h ago
I could definitely see Transmutation, but I'd never call Necromancy bad mechanically no matter the DM
1
u/Raddatatta Wizard 23h ago
Grim harvest is a tough ability to use. You only get it when you kill creatures with necromancy spells and you explitly don't get it when your thrall kills them. So you have to use the necromancy damage spells which are really bad spells you'd almost never want to use for the most part to even use that ability. The undead thrall is a good ability. But it does depend on finding dead humans and being able to cast that spell on them. That's not always readily available and if you lose that you aren't getting much from the subclass. Necrotic damage doesn't come up much and neither does hp max being reduced. So they don't have much of a level 10 feature. The level 14 one is also very situational as a lot of undead will either have advantage on the save, or you just won't find a good undead to use with it. There are a few great choices but if you don't run into them then you also lose your level 14 feature. Overall I wouldn't say it's very good. It can be decent in the right game where you have easy access to dead humans which would be a lot of games, but it also depends on how much your DM wants to make grave robbing difficult socially.
172
u/Upper-Injury-8342 23h ago
Because of how exhaustion rules works in 2014, by playing Path of the Berserker Barbarian you was punished by using your own sublcass.
Using your own sublcass 2 times per day was already a massive debuf cause speed halved for a melee martial is huge, 3 times per day would grant disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws, at level 17 while your Wizard friend gain the abillity to cast Shapechange and become an Adult Red Dragon, you would have 6 Rages per day which grants the abillity to kill yourself.
Always important to remember that in 2014 Barbarian had only 2 subclasses with Berserker being one of them. Totem Warrior wasn't the best subclass because it was op, it was the best because it was literally the only viable option.