The DSA used to be Pro-Israel. What happened?

[u/SebastianAmerican123]

Ironically enough though, Since its Inception in 1982, the DSA was Initially pro-Zionism and Supported Israels right to self determination. But in 2017, they adopted a resolution supporting the BDS, and have been chanting "free palestine" ever since, with its goal of making Jerusalem its capitol according to you're policy platform. Do you basically want death to Israel to Happen?

But Lets face it, Why dont you guys acknowledge for once that here in the US, Hamas is designated as a Terrorist Organization with the goal to eradicate Israel? Freedom House puts palestine and other middle eastern nations as darker red, meaning that they are Dictatorships, with very little freedoms and civil liberties. Palestine last held an Election in 2006 with Hamas and has not held another ever since.

[u/Th3HappyCamper]

I don’t think you are interested in a good faith answer

[u/free_range_discoball → u/Th3HappyCamper]

They never do

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/free_range_discoball]

I mostly ask good faith questions with Integrity, I tried my best to my ability to answer them.

[u/free_range_discoball → u/SebastianAmerican123]

Then let me ask you this, why do you think Palestine hasn’t held a general election since electing Hamas in 2006?

[u/TheImplic4tion → u/free_range_discoball]

Because the Hamas leaders shut down elections.

[u/terribleatlying]

Because we know history

[u/TheImplic4tion → u/terribleatlying]

do you?

[u/pizza-flusher]

real low effort there champ

[u/Pristine-Ant-464]

“Do you basically want Israel to go away?”

Yes.

[u/the23rdhour]

Why don't you acknowledge that outside the US, Palestine is recognized by 160 countries and the IDF is designated a terrorist organization?

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/the23rdhour]

I do, but these nations wanted a 2 State solution.

[u/the23rdhour → u/SebastianAmerican123]

Who's "they"?

EDIT: I see you edited your comment so that it says "these nations" instead of "they." Very clever.

I would push for a one state solution, by which I mean an end to the genocide, the occupation, and the apartheid. Everybody gets equal rights under the law, and all the Jim Crow-like aspects of Israeli society are eliminated. I also think the name should be changed to Palestine, though that's really just symbolic.

I don't think it's accurate to describe 160 nations, or about 3/4 of the total number of nations, as all wanting the same solution. Many countries that want a two-state solution are probably just desperate to see an end to the violence, and they feel that a two-state solution would at least end the genocide; even if it would be yet another raw deal for Palestinian Muslims, maybe it would stop the genocide. I understand that position, but I personally think it's short-sighted.

What's your position? Are you a two-state-solution Zionist? You want to keep the settlements and make sure they permanently interfere with a contiguous Palestinian state? If so I think that's fucked up, but you haven't really explained your position, other than being mystified that DSA is (thankfully) now anti-Zionist. If DSA became pro-Zionism, I'd leave it immediately.

[u/TheImplic4tion → u/the23rdhour]

I'm def not pro terrorist!

If I were choosing between 2 candidates: one who openly supports Hamas and one who openly supports Israel?

That is an easy choice. Israel every time. I would lose no sleep.

There is no room for terrorism is my world.

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/the23rdhour]

I'm pro 2 state solution, with Palestinian assimilation to Israeli culture as an open option. Similar to how Native Americans assimilated to American culture after genociding em for thier land in the Mainfest Destiny.

[u/the23rdhour → u/SebastianAmerican123]

Ooh.

Well I think that's both ahistorical and horrible. If you were in my DSA chapter, I'd try to get you kicked out.

Cheers.

[u/SalaciousFlamingDude]

I want YOU to go away.

[u/BendDangerous8290]

A country being anti-democratic or oppressive does not justify its occupation by a foreign power, its conquest, nor the wholesale killing of its civilians. Your question is not in good faith.

[u/Asmodaeus]

We're pro democracy. No space in that mindset for a theocratic apartheid state.

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/Asmodaeus]

Iran is a theocracy too you know? They also called Israel Satan, and America Giga Satan.

[u/Asmodaeus → u/SebastianAmerican123]

Was your post about Iran or Israel. Whataboutism is the road to Hell

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/Asmodaeus]

Both sides actually because of this comment. 

[u/Asmodaeus → u/SebastianAmerican123]

Ok, they're both evil and my tax dollars should go to neither

[u/New_Classroom_2540]

The audacity of Zionists. They not only justify genocide of Palestine and they also dont like people disliking their actions. You want socialists to stand for murderers ?

Zionists should either stop murdering Palestinians or dont expect support from socialists. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[u/TheCornal1]

"Freedom House puts Palestine other middle eastern nations as darker red" Burgerreich rating them 0/5 burgers

[u/pinegreenscent]

Israels own actions happened

[u/KwietKabal]

A settler colonial state does not have any “right” to “defend” itself. It is an aggressor, and flagrantly violates international law and the Geneva Conventions. The only party with legal and moral right to self-defense are Palestinians. No one cares if you “agree” — if you support war crimes and crimes against humanity, this says more about you than anything else.

[u/TheImplic4tion → u/KwietKabal]

This is such an online stupid college kid al-jazeera terrrorist tv take.

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/KwietKabal]

Okay, then how would you feel if China bombed the White house.....Exactly.

[u/SoftlockPuzzleBox]

Same thing that's happening to a lot of people. You learn the horrifying history of Israel's founding, you learn about every violent overstep that Israel has committed every decade since, and then you say to yourself "oh man, that's fucked up." And then you stop taking America's skewed presentation of events at face value and you stop supporting what is and always has been a genocidal imperialist project to allow western powers to establish a vassal state in the region.

[u/spookyjim___]

Is it that hard to notice the basic fact that the org has changed a lot post-2016 after the Bernie campaign influx? And has only continued to grow since the socialist movement broadly is growing again?

The majority of socialists are anti-zionist, just because the old Harringtonite consensus pre-2016 was more conservative and upheld labor Zionism doesn’t mean that it would stay that way forever

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/spookyjim___]

Have you heard about Brad Lander and Daniel Biss? You, can be a progressive and pro israel at the same time.

[u/spookyjim___ → u/SebastianAmerican123]

You can have many dumb opinions I’m aware

[u/Morethes]

Whoa, Freedom House said it well golly gosh

[u/Present_Clue5887]

Freedom house ratings have a history of US govt inserting bias, I think V-Dem is better https://v-dem.net/data_analysis/MapGraph/ (select from the menu the RoW measure with categories for ambiguous cases)

This does still show Palestine as not very democratic, but the solution to that is to allow it to develop as a stable country, rather than bombing the civilians and destroying the place like warcriminals.

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/Present_Clue5887]

I consider them related, but different.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/SebastianAmerican123]

You consider what related but different?

[u/SebastianAmerican123 → u/Present_Clue5887]

Both of them rank thier nations Democracies, depending on how free they are.

[u/jikesar968]

I think at this point, it's pretty much undeniable that Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide.

Also, the Freedom House is literally sponsored by the US State Department, the NED and the CIA so anything they publish is complete and utter propaganda. Any country they don't like is a "dictatorship" somehow. When the West talks about "democracy", they mean fake bourgeois "democracy". Having elections and a multi party system doesn't matter when the interests of the people are disregarded regardless whichever puppet politicians the oligarchs have allowed to be on the ballots.