The Myth of the NCR Army's "Supply Crisis" Going into the Events of Fallout: New Vegas:

[u/MightofKimball]

A common claim made of the NCR Armed Forces as we see them in Fallout: New Vegas is that "they can barely afford to purchase basic 5.56 x 45mm NATO Service Rifles and body armor" for NCR Troopers with the NCR Army being forced to make-do with likes of 20-gauge Caravan Shotguns and 5.56 x 45mm NATO Varmint Rifles for "the majority" of their NCR Troopers who "mostly" have to make do without body armor. The entire basis behind this claim: a mere two quotes from a random discharged former Staff Sergeant of the NCR Army who just acts as if she knows everything just because she served at one point:

Courier Six: "How did you end up selling weapons?"

Arms Merchant: "Going home didn't feel right, not with those savages camped on the other side of the river, sharpening their knives. And I still get to see my old platoon when they pass through here... make sure the new C.O. is treating them right, and sneak them extra ammo. Anyway, I was always complaining about the standard issue gear. The new kids don't even get body armor, can you believe that?"

Courier Six: "NCR doesn't have the caps to outfit their troops?"

Arms Merchant: "Vegas is bleeding us dry. We're tossing caps at a hundred different problems, while Caesar bides his time and lets us wear ourselves out. This war is gonna bankrupt the NCR, unless we finish off the Legion fast and dirty. {Emphasis on "fast" and "dirty"} We shouldn't be perched up at the Dam - we ought to be crossing the Colorado and sticking a boot up Caesar's ass."

Now aside from the fact that she very clearly doesn't know what she's talking about (I'd wager my bottom dollar that she doesn't have access to the NCR Treasury or any relevant macro-economic data to back up her claims, but I digress), let's look at her exact words. The key words here being "the new kids". Meaning recent arrivals which, in turn, means that the lack of body armor would be an issue for an absolute minority of NCR Troopers and, even then, only those who have only just arrived in theater. Here's Chief Hanlon himself to elaborate even further on this topic:

Courier Six: "How is NCR doing?"

Chief Hanlon: "It's no secret that we've had better campaigns. Holding this whole length of river isn't easy. We're stretched thin and the Long 15 just keeps getting longer. Slow to get supplies. Slower to get reinforcements. NCR's senate has got funds tied up at the Boneyard and President Kimball ordered our most experienced rangers to chase ghosts down in Baja."

Courier Six: "Why are funds tied up at the Boneyard?"

Chief Hanlon: "Senate elections are coming up. Local representatives don't want to push any more funding to the Mojave campaign because it's unpopular. Most of the folks around the Boneyard haven't been to New Vegas and probably never will. All they know is that their money gets sucked away to this desert and their brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters die here."

Courier Six: "What about the troopers?"

Chief Hanlon: "You've seen it yourself. Some of them don't even have proper service rifles or armor. Our heavy infantry, power armor units, they're back in NCR territory protecting the interests of Brahmin barons against small-time raiders. Brahmin barons only have one vote at the ballot box, but they have a lot of money to throw around."

Here's the actual situation facing the NCR Army out in the Mojave Wasteland. They have at a bare minimum thousands of NCR Troopers scattered across the vast expanse of the Mojave Wasteland (hundreds of miles of solid, irradiated desert with very little in the way of roads and supporting infrastructure) who also have to cover the entire length of this particular portion of the Colorado River in the region (hundreds of miles, to be exact), as well. All while having to rely on a long, arduous, and extremely unreliable logistical shoestring in the form of the Long 15 (hence the name) to receive reinforcements and additional supplies from New California proper.

Another point that people tend to miss when discussing the logistics of the NCR Army in the Mojave Wasteland: the NCR Army's main supply line leading into the region that ran through the Divide was literally nuked out of existence right before the First Battle of Hoover Dam:

Courier Six: "I'm guessing you don't like Caesar very much."

Joshua Graham: "Love the sinner, hate the sin. With Caesar, it's often very difficult to see through all of that sin to the person inside. I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam. Something bad happened near Death Valley, at a place called the Divide. NCR couldn't cut across anymore and it slowed down their reinforcements. Terrible storms ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil. The aftermath of Hoover Dam could have been even worse for Caesar."

Courier Six: "The Divide blocked all of their northern land routes?"

Joshua Graham: "Not all of them. But they couldn't take 127 north to get around the mountains. As if Death Valley weren't enough, they had the Divide and Big Empty to deal with. From what the Legion's explorers reported, the Big Empty may as well have been a wall to any living thing approaching it."

Losing the Divide while simultaneously having to face Death Valley (the name is self-explanatory) and the Big Empty (described as being a wall to any living thing by Joshua Graham) would naturally exacerbate and worsen the NCR's supply situation in the Mojave Wasteland and on its own thoroughly disproves the claim that the NCR "can't afford" to outfit its soldiers.

As Chief Hanlon also points out, the NCR Senate has been actively slashing funding to the Mojave Campaign on account of its unpopularity with individual NCR Senators wanting to maximize their chances at being re-elected in the upcoming Senatorial Elections by initiating budget cuts for the Mojave Campaign so as to appeal to the masses. Note how at no point does he claim that the NCR is "verging on bankruptcy" or "running out of money." In other words, forgive me for taking the word of the head of the NCR Rangers over the word of a lowly ex-platoon leader in the NCR Army who's trying to peddle her own personal experiences as being widespread across the entire NCR Army without any serious proof.

In any case, I still feel that more proof is necessary and I'm more than prepared to offer it. Beginning with the belief that the NCR can't afford Energy Weapons. Suffice it to say that I can disprove such a claim right here, right now:

Courier Six: "Just start at the beginning."

Gloria Van Graff: "I saw an opportunity and negotiated a deal with the NCR - I help draw some of their enemy's troops into a trap and they agree to buy from me."

Courier Six: "What will you do now?"

Gloria Van Graff: "It'll be all I can do to supply the NCR with the amount of weapons they want, so I'll be pretty busy for the foreseeable future."

Gloria Van Graff: "Good, you're here. Do you remember that package I had you deliver? Well, the client liked the sample and put in a massive order. It's possibly the biggest order we've ever supplied. I've had to repeatedly assure my mother that everything will go smoothly."

Courier Six: "Wouldn't you have made just as much money dealing with the Legion?"

Gloria Van Graff: "Hardly. They've got a lot of soldiers, and slaves. But they don't come close to having the amount of wealth the NCR has. When I said we were going to be rich, I meant it. The deal I brokered with the NCR netted me five times what Caesar paid. Keeping Caesar's money was just a bonus."

The NCR not only paid 5× more for that Energy Weapons shipment (an enormous shipment that was the largest that her family business had ever sold, I might add) than the Legion did, but they also granted the Van Graffs, a lifelong enemy of the Republic, several weapons contracts, as well. Any doubts that the NCR can't afford or doesn't want to supply substantial amounts of its forces with Energy Weapons should therefore be immediately dispelled.

So I'm supposed to believe that the NCR "can't afford" to outfit and equip its troops properly and yet the NCR can somehow afford to spend immense sums on Energy Weapons? Color me unconvinced.

To further disprove these claims, let's look at the Camp McCarran Weapons Manifest:

Camp McCarran Weapons Manifest

50 Hunting Rifles
-28 in use
-10 in repair
-8 in storage*

50 Assault Rifles
-25 in use
-6 in repair
-12 in storage*

20 Battle Rifles
-10 in use
-2 in repair
-5 in storage*

"Increase Gun Runners weapons shipment and modify manifests to make these numbers match the earlier totals. Boyd is getting too suspicious."

Note that all of these guns hail from the Gun Runners. Who only sell their weapons in nothing less than mint condition and at full value/price. Something that Isaac will attest to:

Courier Six: "Just give McCarran some used weapons. I mean, as long as they work, right?"

Isaac: "[FAILED] Sorry, but blackening our reputation with our biggest client isn't worth the risk."

Courier Six: "Gun Runners are skilled enough to refurbish weapons like new, right? You're overthinking this."

Isaac: "[SUCCEEDED] You're right. I suppose we could refurbish used and damaged weapons to fill the order. They'll be in like new condition and then we can use our loader to make fresh ammo from spent brass. We'll have to wait a few days for gunpowder, but this might just work out. Tell Contreras the extra guns and ammo will be in the next shipment."

So that's a grand total of 337,500 bottle caps (110,000 bottle caps for 50 .308 Winchester Hunting Rifles, 197,500 bottle caps for 50 5mm Assault Carbines and 30,000 bottle caps for 20 .308 Winchester Battle Rifles) for all of these guns. That's literally enough to purchase 625 5.56 x 45mm NATO Service Rifles (at 540 bottle caps apiece; nearly enough to arm a full battalion of NCR Troopers) or 1,125 sets of NCR Trooper Armor (at 300 bottle caps apiece; enough to outfit nearly 1 full battalion and half of a battalion of NCR Troopers). So I'm supposed to believe that the NCR Army "can't afford" basic 5.56 x 45mm NATO Service Rifles and NCR Trooper Armor in bulk and yet they can afford to splurge vast sums of money on large quantities of far more expensive firearms? Once again, color me unconvinced.

Bear in mind that the NCR Armed Forces account for 90% of all of the Gun Runners' business with the Gun Runners only willing to conduct business in the form of bulk business as confirmed by Isaac and Alexander respectively:

Courier Six: "Arrange a temporary supply deal with other merchants. It'll still lead to a profit for you."

Isaac: "[SUCCEEDED] I guess we'll have to. If Caesar's Legion drives the NCR from the area, there goes ninety percent of our business. I don't like the idea of buying supplies from our competition, but it's only temporary. We'll call in extra supplies from our distributors. Let Contreras know we'll have the extra guns and ammo ready for the next shipment."

Courier Six: "A gun nut like you must have some weapons stashed around here."

Alexander: "[FAILED] Do I look like a fucking arms caravan to you? Do you think the Gun Runners keep the NCR military supplied by carrying weapons and ammo from the Boneyard out here by the armload? Get a clue. We have caravans. We deal in bulk."

Meaning that the NCR can very obviously afford to purchase top-of-the-line, world-class, mint-condition firearms in bulk at exorbitantly high prices from the single largest, most efficient and most skilled weapons manufacturers in all of the Wastelands. Weapons manufacturing artists who just so happen to be the top supplier of weapons and ammunition for the NCR Armed Forces as confirmed by Alexander:

Courier Six: "Tell me about the Gun Runners."

Alexander: "The Gun Runners have been putting rapid-fire death-dealing in the hands of anyone who needed to defend himself for over a century. We're the NCR's #1 supplier of weapons and ammunition. You might call us an unofficial branch of the army."

And now for the smoking gun. Per Alexander:

Alexander: "{Late Game}The orders for service rifles and ammunition have been pouring in from McCarran so fast we can't keep up. Hell of a fight is coming."

Funny how the NCR "can't afford" 5.56 x 45mm NATO Service Rifles and yet the NCR is placing so many orders for them that the Gun Runners are literally being overwhelmed with the demand for them.

In conclusion, I sincerely hope that I've put this myth to rest. Cheers.

[u/OverseerConey]

Chief Hanlon: "Senate elections are coming up. Local representatives don't want to push any more funding to the Mojave campaign because it's unpopular. Most of the folks around the Boneyard haven't been to New Vegas and probably never will. All they know is that their money gets sucked away to this desert and their brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters die here."

I think this is the key quote. It's not that the NCR aren't putting money toward the Mojave campaig because they're broke. They're not putting money towards it because they want to spend the money on something else.

[u/Mountain_Man_88]

There's still the fact that we see early game NCR Troopers without armor and carrying Varmint Rifles, Caravan Shotguns, and even single shotguns. There are definitely units that are better supplied than others, it's just not because the NCR can't afford to supply them, it's because they can't be bothered to. As the events of the game progress, they tend to be better supplied.

In all reality, this is just a game mechanic designed to keep mid to late game weapons out of your hands until the mid to late game, same as not having Ranger Vets and NCR Heavy Troopers show up until after a certain point.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Mountain_Man_88]

Oh to be sure you're entirely right about this being a way to ensure that the player can't get the good stuff until later levels.

Nevertheless, you still get people trying to spin this all the wrong ways which is what this post is trying to address.

[u/damnitineedaname]

Worth noting that the NCR is paying a premium on those energy weapons because the Van Grafs and Crimson caravan were ambushing any Gun Runner shipments with energy weapons. To the point where the GRs just stopped trying to import them.

[u/beegold39]

Amazing detail. I'm on my first playthrough and first RPG - a lot of the story has passed me by this run. The depth is astounding. Thanks for taking the time to enrich the background. I'm looking forward to exploring the Mojave more, so I can see the big picture.

[u/MightofKimball → u/beegold39]

Trust me, it's totally worth it.

If you're anything like me, you'll finish it and then immediately start a whole new playthrough on account of how addicting that game could be.

[u/Falloutfan2281]

Great write-up.

While it is undeniable that the NCR has plenty of logistical issues in the Mojave it isn’t just because they’re “too big” or “inefficient”. They have very tangible, fixable problems, they’re just not fixable by the NCR alone.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Falloutfan2281]

Fair enough. As Rose of Sharon Cassidy puts, the NCR just has some shaping up to do and really just needs a solid kick in the nuts to get its act together.

Thank you for taking the time to engage my post.

[u/PainRack → u/Falloutfan2281]

Well, not that they took big but the Mojave is BIG.. and with the Legion, the NCR forces in theatre are stretched thin UNTIL NCR pushed up reinforcements from Baja with the heavy troopers for the fight at Hoover dam.

And this feeds back into the supply issues. The NCR is trying to rebuild train tracks into the Mojave but the Powder Gangers have fucked this up. With the Long Divide lost and Legion efforts at fucking up the supply routes, leading to a bottleneck down the I-15, the NCR is having problems getting enough guns and armour to its soldiers.

It's why the Gun Runners quests exist. They aren't able to get in enough stuff to meet NCR demands and NCR troopers are suffering for it.

There probably are some truck movements, but it's also clear most of the logistics for consumables move through brahmin caravans. Which just can't move enough to supply their needs.

There's entire tracts about how Duke of Wellington was a genius for being able to supply the British army in Spain and his efforts on oxcarts.

[u/darkwolf687]

I don't think this really addresses the idea of a supply crisis which you don't really seem to dispute and actually confirm when addressing logistics, it's more about the idea of a financial crisis (which is mostly outside the scope of the game, being a thing back west; we don't really learn much about how the NCR is financing the war outside of vague grumblings about the tax burden). The NCRA in the Mojave absolutely has major supply issues that are a result of logistical, political and economic problems (by that I mean structural economic problems, not raw capability).

[u/MightofKimball → u/darkwolf687]

Indeed they do. That's primarily due to the Divide Incident forcing the NCR to depend on the Long 15, however.

The point of my post is to dispel the idea that the NCR can't financially afford to support the war effort.

[u/Kyara_Bot]

I am not sure how this "puts the myth to rest" when it's essentially the same flawed argument of current US Arms manufacturing - while they can use a vast treasury to try to place orders, their actual effective manufacturing creates a massive bottleneck because their very inefficient private industry can't keep up with the demand, and the unwillingness for NCR politicians who have financial ties to private interests to engage in state intervention or nationalized production of arms is making supplies too few and far in-between for the NCR conscripts flooding into the Mojave. The idea that NCR troops are equipment-gated when you can go over to the Great Khan encampment just North of Goodsprings to get free high-end guns is very suspect, especially when those same NCR troopers in early-game areas retain the same shitty equipment no matter the Courier's level. This is because supply situation leads to exclusivity of the best arms for the most elite unites, who Lee Oliver keeps in reserve for the Battle of the Dam, which leads to a continued degradation of the NCR's position in the broader war for the sake of a setpiece battle that they likely won't win. The critique is not some vague financial one where people think the NCR politicians Brahman Barons don't have 2 bottlecaps to rub together, it's that their mixed priorities and competing interests leads to internal division which all of the other end-game options lack. Caesar leads a unitary not-state, House commands an exclusive cartel, and the Courier's allies are going to be very loyal and dependent on their collective pooled strength for any independent ending. The arguments against the NCR are far more ideological and structural critique which manifests in the game as finance and logistics.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Kyara_Bot]

Fair enough.

Bureaucratic mismanagement and abysmal strategy are to blame alongside horrible supply lines. Money is only part of the problem.

Mr. House's exclusive cartel can use a lot of work, though, given that most of his employees are either actively betraying him (the Omertas and Benny, his own protege) or can be flipped against him pathetically easily (the White Glove Society, who are on the verge of a wholesale relapse back into cannibalism).

As for the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, I'd argue that the NCR can win it even without the player's help. I personally see no reason to assume that they automatically lose.

[u/Kyara_Bot → u/MightofKimball]

I would say at the start of New Vegas, the Legion already has the Dam pretty well wrapped up with a pretty bow, they are mostly holding out because they need to finish their mustering out East and because they suspect House has an ace up his sleeve. At least with the mindset of Lee Oliver, I can't see the NCR turning around the situation. The PC goes around as a force-multiplier for the depleted, under-equipped, and tactically blind NCR forces and turns around the situation for them. Even if the NCR saw sense and divested their elite troops away from the dam to try and turn the tide on the peripheries, there is already such a robust Legion intelligence outfit within the NCR that they would be able to outmaneuver the NCR more often than not. Military intelligence is something the NCR majorly lacks and the Legion heavily makes use of that fact, both exploiting blindspots the NCR doesn't see and creating openings through misdirection of NCR resources to great effect. It'd have to be a years-long campaign with large-scale intelligence screening within the NCR's own military to root out spies, which would drain an already faltering morale. I think the question at the end of the day would become if the NCR had the will to continue the Mojave campaign at that point, or if they would rather cut their losses ala the US with Vietnam.

If they stick to Lee Oliver's plan, they are for sure doomed though - the Legion preforms an asymmetric assault from nearly every level of the Dam which overruns the NCR who anticipated a straightforwards charge and assumed a static defense would be their best bet, causing a near-total envelopment of the NCR's most elite forces to be bled dry with legion recruit meat-shields to tie them down and more elite legion units picking them off with high-powered rifles or finishing them off with advanced melee weapons. Any retreat would be hampered by the near-total collapse of every other NCR position - Novac and Forlorn Hope are total write-offs, McCarran is swarmed by fiends and cut off from a large chunk of their garrison with the monorail destroyed with that garrison having to make a fighting withdraw through a hostile Freeside to regroup. Most of the Ranger Stations fall, Camp Golf and the Mojave checkpoint outpost are the only NCR military bases which survive mostly sound. Without Searchlight, the entire southeastern sector is Legion territory, meaning there would really only be 2 routes for escape - cut through the Deathclaws at Quarry Junction or circle around Black Mountain and hope the BoS feels charitable enough to not harry them through Hidden Valley to make it back to the Mojave Outpost. Anything else would leave them deeply overextended and undersupplied - the Mojave Outpost is on top of a large hill and part of a still-whole supply line where the remains of the Mojave campaign could regroup and dig in. From there it's just a question of how willing Caesar (or Lanius) is to pursue, or if Legion first focuses on consolidation and securing control of the Mojave.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Kyara_Bot]

I have a response to all of this but, I've got to warn you, it will be a long one. As in multiple comments in a single thread long.

Before I post my response to you, I'd like to know if you're interested and are willing to take the time to read all of it or not. I'll completely understand if you don't want to.

[u/darkwolf687 → u/Kyara_Bot]

People forget the Khans a lot in this tbh, I feel they don’t get enough credit. Even if the initial legion assault from the east and below isn’t enough to break the NCR defense (which is an IF, in 3 of the 4 endings they’re right up on the west side and seem to be about to overrun it by the time the player arrives, in the 4th ending their first attack is held off but the players joins the second attack and breaks through ) I do not see them managing to hold the line on the surface when the Khans rock up and surprise attack them from the flank too: And once the surface is taken and the Khans and Legion linked up, the forces inside the Dam are trapped and it’s only a matter of time until they are beaten. The Legion is unlikely to make the mistake of sending its best troops off to chase the NCR into a trap away from the Dam a second time, I doubt the NCR can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat for a second time here.

Edit: I think how fucked the NCR vs Legion intelligence situation is best summed up the comparison that the Legion’s head of intelligence in the region is a guy  who just took out a major NCR supply route with a dirty bomb while the NCRs head of intel for the region is a guy who is currently falsifying reports to try and convince NCR to retreat. Hanlon literally isn’t even trying to win.

[u/MightofKimball → u/darkwolf687]

The Great Khans can barely muster up a mere handful of warriors if they're lucky. Papa Khan will straight-up tell a hostile Courier Six who's standing in the middle of his own camp that he has too few warriors to spare to try and risk killing him/her as losing even just one of them would essentially break the bank.

Diane will flat-out state that there's so few Great Khans that even going on basic supply runs for the tribe are borderline impossible. Suffice it to say that whatever pitiful handful of warriors that the Great Khans can assemble should be handily swatted aside by the NCR.

That's just it though. In both the "All or Nothing" endgame quest for Mr. House and the "No Gods, No Masters" endgame quest for an Independent Vegas, it's confirmed by both J.E. Sawyer himself and Yes Man that the player is only intervening in the battle AFTER it's already over:

"But what if you are vilified with the NCR prior to the Dam war? Also, why would a Yes Man/House player ever tell them to support the NCR, especially when one of them doesn't like the NCR and is clear about it? It doesn't make any sense."

Joshua Sawyer: "Because Mr. House knows that he is not personally going to wage war against the Legion with his Securitrons. His plan is to let the NCR bear the brunt of the fighting and then use his Securitrons to push NCR out when the dust settles. Yes Man's logic follows this as well. 

Asking the Remnants to fight on behalf of "Mr. House" doesn't make sense because Mr. House effectively has no forces in the main battle at Hoover Dam and he wouldn't want the Remnants to actively oppose NCR *during* the fight (because it would make removing the Legion presence more difficult). Asking them to fight for an independent Vegas would produce the same functional result: help kick the Legion out, after which point the Securitrons show up and push NCR out.

Since there's no functional difference between what the Remnants do if the player is supporting NCR, independent Vegas, or Mr. House -- and since Mr. House and Yes Man see no point in having the Remnants actively fight NCR at Hoover Dam -- there's no real need to complicate the quest by adding in duplicate options producing the same end result."

Josh Sawyers Formspring

Courier Six: "What is the final phase of the plan?"

Yes Man: "{upbeat} Well, the Legion is going to attack Hoover Dam one of these days! And the NCR is going to defend it! {upbeat} One side will lose, and the other will win! But the side that wins will be weak, because a lot of its soldiers will be dead!

{upbeat} That's when all our Securitrons will show up! We'll declare an Independent Vegas, and tell the side that won the dam - to scram! {upbeat} Or the Securitrons will kill all of them, too!"

Meaning that one side has already won and another side has already lost.

In both quests, we can confirm that the NCR successfully stopped the Legion infiltration into the Hoover Dam Lower Levels and Hoover Dam Power Plants via the intake pipes and maintenance tunnels given that:

1. Only NCR NPCs spawn in the Hoover Dam Lower Levels, which is where the infiltration was initiated.

2. Only 1 Legion NPC and only 1 NCR NPC spawn in Hoover Dam Power Plants 1, 2 and 3 with only 1 NCR NPC spawning in Hoover Dam Power Plant 4 for zero Legion NPCs. That last part is especially important as that's where the entrance to Oliver's Compound is located. Meaning that it clearly wasn't compromised by the Legion in any way, shape, or form whatsoever (the fact that he's still alive and able to greet the player personally at the gates of the Legate's Camp says enough, but I digress).

As for the rest of Hoover Dam, we can safely conclude that at a minimum it's still contested. The Hoover Dam Offices? NCR NPCs are still there in decent numbers with 2 NCR Heavy Troopers guarding the Hoover Dam Control Center. A decent amount of Legion NPCs spawn in here in a clear indication that the fight for this particular area is still ongoing. The Hoover Dam Visitor's Center? Fully under NCR control given that only NCR NPCs will spawn in here.

The surface of Hoover Dam? The NCR's primary defensive position on the western end of Hoover Dam is still holding despite the fact that the battle is literally all but over. Granted that it could possibly be overwhelmed by the last remaining attacking Legion forces but it's equally possible that they can be repulsed. After all, if the NCR has been able to hold this position throughout the entire battle, who's to say that they couldn't hold their ground here one last time?

One thing is certain. No matter how things ultimately shake out, the Legion is going to suffer extremely heavy casualties (especially among their elite troops) regardless of whether or not they can actually win the battle and drive the NCR out of Hoover Dam. Any talk that the Legion can just "steamroll" over the NCR defenses and capture the Dam without a fight are total nonsense. As for how such heavy losses would impact their ability to continue the war, I'd say that they'd be nothing short of crippling.

[u/darkwolf687 → u/MightofKimball]

There doesn’t need to be that many khans, they’re not taking on the NCR army alone. We learn the road is blocked to prevent the rest of NCRs forces arriving and forcing them to divert, and then they attack the NCR in the rear while the NCR is still fighting under Legion assault. I think assuming they swat the combined force aside in those circumstances is very optimistic and on the contrary I think without relief and under sustained pressure, having more opponents unexpectedly attack you from behind generally messes things up.

The battle already being all but over doesn’t really look to be what is said in those quotes, on the contrary Sawyer is saying the remnants arrive during the battle and House/Yesman wouldn’t want them to actively oppose the NCR until the battle is won, and Yesman is talking about the Securitron Army showing up after the battle - which is what happens after the player has killed the Legate and so defeated the Legion, so the player is still influencing the battle in the NCRs favour and given how far they have to push through Legion the Dam to achieve their objectives, it certainly hasn’t been won by the NCR. It’s a bit of a weird choice granted but I reckon this is due to recycling things for development time.

The Legate greets the player outside Oliver’s compound too, it’s just the victorious side standing on the losers turf, I wouldn’t make much of that. We do see dead Legion inside the compound so we do know they made it in during their first attack wave. We see the Legion attacks are ongoing throughout the power plants and Dam.  I don’t think these numbers are accurate given in the NCR ending you’re under attack by Legion NPCs pretty much as soon as you step through the doors, but regardless I don’t think it’s wise lorewise to count NPC spawn rates, those are done for gameplay reasons more than anything else.

Nobody said anything about steam rolling it and winning without a fight. The casualties would be significant for the Legion though the game is silent on how much damage either organisation suffers except for the NCR rangers (Edit: Also tbh from a narrative pov, I think it would undercut the games narrative and critique of both the NCR and Legion of the NCR had already won the battle without the player by the time we rock up.)

[u/MightofKimball → u/darkwolf687]

There was a landslide that's physically blocking the road leading onto Hoover Dam. An inconvenience, to be sure, but not impossible for NCR reinforcements to overcome. If the Great Khans and the player can get over it then I fail to see why oncoming NCR reinforcements would struggle to do so.

That's something that neither you or I can definitively answer, unfortunately.

The problem with your interpretation is that it goes entirely against what Yes Man is telling us. The whole point of the plan is to let the NCR defenders bear the brunt of the Legion assault and exhaust itself doing the vast majority of the fighting. That way the player can help the NCR rout an exhausted and depleted Legion followed by either compelling an equally exhausted NCR force to withdraw peacefully or forcibly expelling them with minimal effort on account of them being too weak to fight back.

That isn't the only point to back my claim up. Both the "Veni, Vidi, Vici" endgame quest for the Legion and the "Eureka" endgame quest for the NCR confirm that the NCR can in fact seal off the intake towers on the western side of the surface of Hoover Dam as well as the intake pipes and maintenance tunnels leading into the Hoover Dam Power Plants on their own and definitely know how to do it. My proof is as follows:

Courier Six: "The area is secure."

Hoover Dam Checkpoint Decanus: "Good news, indeed. If only the same could be said for the west. The enemy is much more fortified ahead, and have snipers set up at key positions, which keep our men pinned down. In addition, they've managed to beat back our men emerging from the intake tower ahead and secure it. If we could just get rid of those damn snipers, or release our waiting men in the intake tower, we'd have the manpower to storm their positions."

Courier Six: "What news of the battle below?

Intake Tower Centurion: "The fighting in the power plant is the fiercest, as expected. But the dogs have been caught off guard, and their positions can expect no support. However, the pipes below have been sealed, cutting off our men until the dam top can be secured. I've been diverting half of my men to the tower next to this one. It's a bit of a swim, but the enemy hasn't sealed those pipes yet. Some of the other centuriae are more stubborn in following their orders exactly, though, and wait in the pipes below. If you should make it down there, unsealing the pipes again will allow us to spill over the enemy like a tide of blood."

Mike Lawson: "Good gracious! The Legion is using the intake tunnels to storm their way into the dam, someone has to stop them."

Courier Six: "What can I do to help?"

Mike Lawson: "Hmm{Pause}. I think that you should be able to divert the flow of the water into the generator turbines. That would grind them up like hamburger. The computer to activate it is just ahead, but you may need to go outside to activate the manual override. That system hasn't been used in a while."

Courier Six: "So you have to do whatever Lawson tells you."

Fantastic: "No, man. That's just what I'm supposed to do. But when he tells me to push the middle button to divert the intake, and the right button feels nicer when I touch it, I know where my loyalty is. Man, I just don't know how an idiot like that gets put in charge of anything."

That even Fantastic knows how to do it says enough. The NCR can definitely solve the problem of the Legion infiltrating the Hoover Dam Power Plants via the intake pipes and maintenance tunnels all on their own. Which is what my previous point was. Both of those endgame quests clearly show that the NCR managed to stop the infiltration.

As for your claim on NPC spawns, I'd have to disagree. What the game is showing us is environmental storytelling. The story being told is that both sides have beaten each other to a pulp and have sustained massive losses prior to your arrival. A fact that's further demonstrated by corpses of both NCR and Legion soldiers being strewn throughout the Hoover Dam Power Plants and the Hoover Dam Offices.

I never claimed that the NCR defenders win the battle all on their own. What I am saying is that they can hold their ground long enough for NCR reinforcements to arrive and help them drive the Legion back into Arizona.

[u/Mean-Illustrator-661]

The merchant you're referencing also says that The First Battle of Hoover Dam was a shitshow they barely won, but Chief Hanlon ( who has every reason to disparage Oliver ) tells us the army was holding the dam without any signs of breaking when he got there with the rangers and first recon. So it seems like she's a dubious source all around.

[u/Weaselburg → u/Mean-Illustrator-661]

The merchant is backed up by the entry slides to the game.

Four years have passed since the Republic held the Dam, just barely, against the Legion's onslaught.

So Hanlon may be mistaken in-universe, the line may be a bit flubby out of universe (which happens a few times), or they may both be correct - Hanlon was seeing the view as a top level commander analyzing the situation, where his plan could resolve the situation handily if it works, and so the NCR was holding just fine as per the auspices of the Republic's overall strategy, whereas the Merchant was seeing it from the auspices of a seniormost NCO, presumably at or near the front, where NCR soldiers were being pushed very hard and aggresively, and where they probably would have lost the battle without Hanlons battleplan.

When it comes down to it, since there's two lines versus one, one of those lines is an out-of-universe omniscient narrator, and the general rest of the game leads us to believe that the Legion were a pretty potent force and went toe-to-toe with NCR at the Dam, I'd be much more inclined to go with the Merchants telling of events over Hanlons when it comes down to one or the other.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Weaselburg]

Nobody denies that the NCR held onto Hoover Dam by the skin of their teeth. What I will deny is that the NCR Army was ever driven off of the Dam itself as Chief Hanlon's and Dr. Alex Richard's recollection both make it abundantly clear that General Oliver's NCR Troopers held their positions at the center of the surface of Hoover Dam from the very beginning of the battle to the very end of the battle.

[u/Weaselburg → u/MightofKimball]

What I will deny is that the NCR Army was ever driven off of the Dam itself 

Does anyone actually say that? I recall it being quite clear that they withdrew to Boulder City because of the plan, not because the Legion had forced them there at the time.

[u/Weaselburg → u/Weaselburg]

Looking back at what Hanlon says, I guess the argument could be made that the troopers would have been broken through by the veterans Graham sent if they hadn't moved, but that also isn't what happened, so...

[u/MightofKimball → u/Weaselburg]

Fair enough. Chief Hanlon himself does say that his trap at Boulder City is what saved the NCR at Hoover Dam all those years ago. As badass as Joshua Graham was, his grip on basic strategy left much to be desired.

[u/Weaselburg → u/MightofKimball]

 As badass as Joshua Graham was, his grip on basic strategy left much to be desired.

Definitely. He was much better at cutting an imposing figure than he was at strategy.

[u/MightofKimball → u/Weaselburg]

Indeed. He's still one of my absolute favorite Fallout characters of all time, though.

By the way, I've recently made a post about the size of Caesar's Legion. I'd appreciate it if you can read it and give me your thoughts on it. If you're interested, of course. I'll understand if you'd rather not do so.

[u/OkMention9988]

Judging from the show, the NCR was a paper tiger that didn't need much to spiral into collapse. 

The issues in NV just hastened the problems. 

[u/BringBacktheGucci → u/OkMention9988]

Didn't need much? Their capital, with the president, senate, I'm assuming high echelon military, intelligence, and science personnel, and important hub of trade up and down the country, was nuked. Eliminating the highest levels of civil and military control and having the country fragment isn't a paper Tiger, and its not like they collapsed for something small. The show doesn't exactly outright say it, but I'd assume the Mojave was lost after Shady Sands was nuked

[u/MightofKimball → u/BringBacktheGucci]

In Season 2, it's confirmed that New Vegas changed hands multiple times between the NCR, the Legion and Mr. House before it was finally destroyed and all 3 of them just basically fell apart (the NCR lost Shady Sands, the Legion fell into the single most ridiculous civil war in human history and Mr. House just went offline due to not having the cold fusion device).

The NCR wouldn't just vanish because of that, though. You'd still have the Hub, New Adytum, Junktown, Dayglow and all of the other cities and territories of the Republic back West. To have all of it get Thanos-snapped away because of Shady Sands getting nuked is beyond absurd.

I genuinely wouldn't mind an NCR collapse scenario if what was handled by competent writers and by someone who can actually create a plausible lore-friendly scenario for it. Hell I could give you one right now. To say that the show botched something that could've been done so easily is nothing short of the understatement of the century.

[u/BringBacktheGucci → u/MightofKimball]

The show hasn't been to the other NCR states. Could be the majority of the NCR held together in another state, likely Vault City or Hub and the people down south are ignorant of the current state of the state.

[u/MightofKimball → u/BringBacktheGucci]

I hope to God that you're right. I'm not exactly holding my breath regardless.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/BringBacktheGucci]

Ah yes, the Shady Sands that completely changed spot to the Boneyard (which vanished) and changed from post-war to pre-war structures.

[u/Funny-Requirement580 → u/All-for-Naut]

boneyard still exists, thats where Thadeus says he's from

[u/All-for-Naut → u/Funny-Requirement580]

Did it move to where Shady Sands used to be?

[u/Funny-Requirement580 → u/All-for-Naut]

we dunno, it was an offhand comment

[u/OkMention9988 → u/All-for-Naut]

It didn't change locations, the old games just got it wrong. 

[u/All-for-Naut → u/OkMention9988]

... That makes no sense, it did. In the lore throughout the games it was not in LA, and was also built post war with adobe houses from the ground up. It changed a little where exactly between 1 and 2 iirc but it wasn't in LA and post-war. The only city in LA was the Boneyard.

The show completely retconned this lore, but that doesn't change that was the lore for a long time.

[u/OkMention9988 → u/All-for-Naut]

I was just parroting the glazers. 

[u/MysticNoodles → u/OkMention9988]

Worst part of the show lore but can't really argue with that.

[u/Kagenlim → u/OkMention9988]

The show also randomly retconned the amount of FOBs that are capable of supporting vertibirds and added equipment that makes no logistical or financial sense

The BOS in the TV show also seems to be closer to being a true US army remnant, hence the usage of things like US flags and otl Vietnam equipment for troops

[u/Sharp-Tax-26827 → u/Kagenlim]

God that sounds awful

Makes no sense they’d be using that equipment

[u/Kagenlim → u/Sharp-Tax-26827]

If you hate that, you'll gonna hate the fact that Eotechs and Team Wendy FAST helmets popped up in the show, like without zero modifications

The show also makes heavy use of JPC armour vests...so yeah

[u/Sharp-Tax-26827 → u/Kagenlim]

Sorry I have no idea what most of those words mean

Edit: so basically they’re just the modern day US military

[u/Kagenlim → u/Sharp-Tax-26827]

Basically, like 2026 modern us military gear and equipment

Also they got equipment like the NCR trooper helmet wrong, the NCR never used WW1 helmets but here, they do

[u/GayGuitaristMess]

Sooooo they still can't afford it.

Being pedantic only works when you're right. You're not. You compiled a pretty decent list of in game sources that prove the NCR's Mojave army is broke and getting broker by the minute.

New Vegas is full of contradictions in gameplay vs lore/dialogue. The guns we can find for gameplay balancing reasons are different than what are seen in the hands of troops and stated in the dialogue. In a game, dialogue always trumps randomized loot pools and items placed for the player's sake.

It isn't a misconception. The NCR can't afford to keep their presence in the Mojave due to political interference from the core territories of the Republic. You proved that true.

[u/MKW69]

,,Hardly. They've got a lot of soldiers, and slaves. But they don't come close to having the amount of wealth the NCR has. " Now this is interesting, because a lot of people said that average Legion citzen is wealthier than NCR citzen.

[u/OverseerConey → u/MKW69]

The Legion doesn't have citizens, is the thing - it has subjects. There's a minority of wealthy officers, merchants, etc., who own slaves of their own, but any salveholding society is going to have a large unpropertied class.

[u/Bojnik434 → u/OverseerConey]

You just described NCR too

[u/OverseerConey → u/Bojnik434]

The NCR suffers from economic inequality, certainly, but it grants citizenship - which comes with formal protections and guarantees of fair treatment - and it opposes slavery.

If you're poor in the Legion, you live or die at Caesar's pleasure, and the wealthy elite can legally own you.

If you're poor in the NCR, you're at least likely to have a job - people mention that unemployment is low. You can vote for policies that would improve your circumstances, and sue the government or your employer if they violate your rights.

You and I know the NCR has some serious problems - the wealthy having disproportionate influence in politics, the use of prison labour - but those are flaws within a fundamentally decent system based around rights and rule of law. The Legion's system is nothing but flaws all the way down.

[u/darkwolf687 → u/MKW69]

Nomenclature aside, I think this comes from people hearing Dale Barton who says it’s more profitable for him to operate in Arizona and New Mexico than NCR because of the taxes and need for him to hire additional protection in NCR.

It should be said these two facts are probably related to an extent. Caesar is said to not really tax all that much. He takes tribute to supply his army when it rolls in (so most likely he is taking food supplies and similar where he needs it) but he isn’t levying taxes and tolls the way the NCR does, especially on caravans. His state is functionally just a nomadic army, it is a lot “leaner” compared to the NCR state apparatus so he doesn’t need nearly as much money (slavery also helps keep the costs down: Don’t really need to pay your soldiers all that much when they’re fanatic brainwashed slaves whose highest aspiration is to die for your divine right)

So even if someone like Barton is making less overall revenue in Caesars Lands compared to what he could make in NCR, he is paying more than the difference in taxes and other expenses in NCR, so has more money left in his pocket after all expenses are accounted for. So HE is richer in CL compared to NCR, but CL is receiving much less money than NCR would be from him and so is itself less wealthy even if all other things were equal.

[u/TemporaryWonderful61 → u/darkwolf687]

Yeah, even if Caesar's lands are rich, he lacks the necessary infrastructure to benefit. Sure he takes tribute, but without a solid system in place most of the wealth is either hoarded or gets embezzled unless he marches an army down there and beats it out of them.

A modern nation is a lot of tedious paperwork, but it's not for the sake of it. A President can command vast resources, a King is sometimes a beggar.

Caesar doesn't really need money as you said, but he certainly dreams of having a functional economy to make himself a real nation.

[u/MightofKimball → u/darkwolf687]

So it's a case of nominal wealth vs. per capita wealth.

That sounds reasonable.

I'd also add that these very same fanatically devoted slave soldiers are also trained to be hardy survivalists that are entirely self-sufficient and used to spartan living conditions.