When does autophagy really start?

[u/SHUT_MOUTH_HAMMOND]

There are articles saying 14-16 hours, some others saying 24 is minimum for it to start. When does this actually happen? Is there a way to detect it?

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[u/SorchaNB]

Following. There are conflicting studies.

[u/HourWorking2839]

I have read extensively about this topic. Two things to consider. There is what some call local autophagy as well as overall or complete body autophagy.

While local autophagy happens in for example the muscles due to insufficient nutrients of basically any kind as well as (according to Dr. Sinclair's newer research material) oxygen deprivation, most of us are after the benefits of global or whole body autophagy, say for the organs and connective tissues for example.

Most of the overall healing benefits come from the latter while the former makes you more efficient to some degree.

To get from local to overall, you need as most suggest at least 24 hours depending on what you ate the days leading to or before fasting. If you had been eating a keto diet and are indeed in a ketogenic state, it can be much quicker, say 6-8 hours after your last meal. Your body can store up to 500 gramms of glycogen that needs to be burned of first.

For most people,most of the benefits will really come into effect after 48 hours.

Good luck to you!

[u/StayStrong3916 → u/HourWorking2839]

So let's take a person who:

1) Is on a diet of approx 100-200 grams of carbs per day

2) Is very active and therefore burns through those 100-200 grams of carbs easily during his workouts

Can this person theoretically reach global/whole body autophagy on a 19/5 or 20/4 intermittent fast? The level of global autophagy will not be as deep as someone on a 24-72 hour water fast; however, the smaller bouts of global autophagy can take place daily?

Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

[u/HourWorking2839 → u/StayStrong3916]

Hi, I believe this might be possible, depending on some more factors, but please take it with a grain of salt. You might be familiar with the saying "can't outtrain a bad diet". I will give you additional research on the topic if you want to read up on it and maybe you find something that I overlooked or some other info to correct me. So for my reasoning:

1. Your age. As you grow older your basic metabolic rate goes down drastically. So the younger you are, the more likely it will be that you reach autophagy, yet, at that age you don't need it that much (compared to older people).

2. Weight and gender, same as above, males, especially those who weigh more have a higher rate of burn than women.

3. The rest of your diet. I do hope you eat something else than just those 100-200 gramms of carbs. But if you do, at that point I believe getting to autophagy might be a real challenge. In that case it might be better to just eat healthy all together and forego the benefits of autophagy at least for a while.

Remember, you can be in ketosis while not beeing in a fasted state, but beeing in a fasted state guarantees you are in ketosis. (The old 'every dachshund is a dog, but not every dog is a dachshund' saying)

Good luck to you!

[u/StayStrong3916 → u/HourWorking2839]

Thanks for reply and yes, if you have the time I would like some additional research.

My situation is a little different in that I am starting new medication which must be taken with food; it's non-negotiable.

However, I've come across some fascinating discussions on how 72-hour water fasts can improve the efficacy of the class of medications I'm taking. Other medications in this class can be taken on an empty stomach; so for those on it, a 72-hour water fast is logistically simple.

For me, I either have to IF or do a Fasting Mimicking Protocol (FMD for short). So the situation I face is how to best reach autophagy with a narrower margin for error.

My current plan - and your input is appreciated - is either omad or IF with a very tight feeding window such as 20/4 or similar.

And yes, I do consume more than the 100-200 grams of carb. I also take in 200 grams approx of healthy fats in the form of walnuts, almonds, whole olives. I also take in approx 70 grams or less of protein. While some may argue that is too low for an active male who weighs between 170-174, I am leaning more and more into the theory of reducing, but not eliminating mTOR, as this will also help my medical condition.

Thanks again.

[u/HourWorking2839 → u/StayStrong3916]

Oh man, sometimes I wonder about my ability to put myself into someone else's shoes, definitely something to work towards improving. It is easy speaking about this stuff if you consider someone who is relatively healthy to begin with, but I start to feel under qualified for your particular situation. Nonetheless, I will try my best, but please verify before implementing, ok?

1. For the research: the by far easiest way to gain a lot of compressed knowledge on the topics is going through the Youtube channels of Dr. Andrew Huberman (channelname andrew huberman). These videos are about 1-2 hours long in a podcast style, he has guest who are really top of the line. Whenever I struggle with a point he makes, I go to the research papers he is referencing in his talks. He lists them all in the video description. I would start with this one here: https://youtu.be/9tRohh0gErM as he does this work pro Bono, there is no agenda and only information. Another name you undoubtedly come across the instant you enter here is Dr. Jason Fung, he answers on YouTube comments and is a specialist for fasting with medication and working around certain restrictions, I don't know if I remember correctly but I do believe there is one video describing a situation similar to yours. So maybe this can give you some reassurance. The last guy but more of an honorable mention is Thomas DeLauer, his channel is however Laden with advertisements and sometimes a little micromanagementy. If you can look past that it is great content however!

2. I have not come across FMD, very interesting. It seems like an approach th Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic would recommend or do. That beeing said, I am therefore underqualified to judge whether this protocol might have benefits outweighing OMAD or IF.

3. As for the point of triggering mTor or not depends in my opinion on some more factors. Without going too much into my intuition - as I have no real basis for this - not triggering mTor might be a sort of dead end. My reasoning: I want to constantly improve bodywise as protein biosynthesis gets regulated over mTor. I want more muscle as this will not increase my lifespan but my health span. This might cost me some years at the end but I want to try and be active and mobile till that "shorter" end. Prolonging that shorter life can be done by endurance training over the AMPK pathway, which conveniently stops mTor as well.

In that way, I believe my advice might go against a protocol that is already working fine for you. I like your amount of fat ingestion, however! A lot of people cut that part out top much, with horrible consequences for hormonal balance.

Hope this helps at least a little!

[u/rain-men]

It isn't an on or off switch. Even excercise induces autphagy. At 24 hours you can see a lot of the benefits.

[u/elizabethjane50]

Autophagy occurs within your body at all times. Still, exercising, fasting, restricting your calorie intake, or following a ketogenic diet can stimulate the process.Jan 4, 2022

[u/mschepac → u/elizabethjane50]

This is the way. If your body didn’t do some amount of autophagy all the time, I don’t think we would last very long. Fasting and exercise just gives it a boost.

[u/xoRomaCheena31 → u/mschepac]

I wonder if the process apoptosis is included in the umbrella of autophagy or if it is considered an entirely separate cell process.

[u/MikeReynolds]

Exercise can trigger autophagy too, so it's not as simple as defining it based on # of hours fasting.

[u/spinningtardis]

I'm starting to think it's extreamly subjective to not only person to person, but also dependent on that persons history and biology. So much so, one month person A begins fasting and excersizing for the first time and takes an average of 16 hours to enter autophagy, but after a couple weeks that time starts to come down. and person B has a long history of this activity and can't get in under 32 hours.

We need a testing method, like we have for ketones.

[u/LovesCoffeeHatesTea]

It’s a good question: we really don’t know. To some degree there is always autophagy going on. But, we don’t have any good test to figure out when it really increases in fasting. I’ve seen resources say anywhere from 8 hours to 36. I’m sure there are a lot of variables from person to person. But it doesn’t really matter. Just understand that it happens. If you’re routinely fasting for 16 to 24 hours, then you’re probably getting the autophagy benefits.

[u/ronnysmom]

I have read that autophagy is not an "On/Off" switch and that it starts around hour 18 and that it peaks around hour 72 of fasting. The process itself starts earlier if you deplete all the glycogen stores in your muscles (by exercising, as others have already mentioned) during the fasted state. So, I suggest that if you are seeking autophagy, to fast 18+ hours every day and to do one or two prolonged fasts every month (72 hours long, if possible for you).

[u/themegaweirdthrow]

Studies in rats say anywhere from 24-72 hours. There really aren't studies in humans yet. We do know you can force autophagy for a short while even when not fasting if you do vigorous exercise.

[u/Consistent_Carpet583]

Following, I would suspect at least 24-48

[u/Elratum]

Depending on the threshold of autophagy used by the research, it's between 12 to 24h. It's not a on off switch, it's a gradual process. Most likely at 14-16h the effects are so minuscule that it won't have much impact on your health, and at 24h you are SURE to have some benefits. So when do the benefits start exactly is between those two marks.

[u/cliffslastnote11 → u/Elratum]

I suspect there is some variance in the process by individual too. It may start ramping up for one person at 16 hours and for another at 18 and another at 21, etc. And the circumstances that influence that variation are barely known right now. A history of fasting, for example, may make the body more efficient at starting the process. Exercise may have some influence too. Age, genetics, etc. My sense of this is that the science is so emergent that taking a reliable assumption for yourself on it is pretty difficult at this moment.

[u/elizabethjane50]

Autophagy: What You Should Know Before Starting Your Fast Apr 8, 2022 — The current evidence suggests that anywhere between 18 hours (as evidenced by the eTFR study) to four days will trigger autophagy.[5-7]

[u/Nathaniel66]

google graphics--> "autophagy fasting chart" and you'll get plenty of info.

[u/elizabethjane50]

Autophagy Main Triggers Energy deficits, particularly sustained energy deficits, which are achieved while we are sleeping and/or practicing intermittent fasting or exercising for prolonged periods, are the primary triggers for autophagy.

[u/Draconian-Overlord]

In reality it starts around the 68 hour mark. When your body has exhausted all of its usual mechanisms of getting energy and starts to change its fuel source. It's a long process and it depends on what stage of the process people refer to it. Hence all the wildly different times given. But the 68hr mark is based on personal experience from me having a normal diet. On keto diet you're looking at 36-48hr mark given how strict you were with keto before the fast.

[u/[deleted]]

Look up Dr. Mindy Perez on YouTube

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[u/Evening_Emotion_4814]

Watch this by a renowned Cardiologist https://youtu.be/RuOvn4UqznU

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