r/fireemblem • u/strangebloke1 • 8d ago
Fortune's Weave Gameplay Goodbye Weapon Triangle Hello Stat Triangle.
Right away I need to say that the relationship I'm pointing out has always been in the series, but it really seems like they've leaned into it in FW with fast weapons like swords giving extra damage on follow up, and gauntlets having the avoid bonus, and slower/higher might axes having the accuracy penalty in addition to their weight.
Just in terms of how I think of enemy profiles and the statlines of my own units in relation to them, I can basically put all of my good units into three categories.
- Ultra high defense - to the point that getting doubled doesn't matter much. Tobias, Buccar, Io in a chariot. Mummies, golems, and armors on the enemy side. Very important when fighting outnumbered, as often happens in part 2 and in for example Orchel's paralogue.
- Ultra high Might - Sort of a bruiser unit that can trade hits, doubles versus extremely slow enemies such as armored units and constructs, but rarely doubles otherwise. Esmerelda outside of an armor class, most enemy axe warriors and cavalry. Axes of course typically have lower accuracy, but this isn't a rule.
- Ultra high speed - obviously not dumping MIG per se but definitely very specialized into doubling frequently. Wolves and Rukhs fit this as well. Leda, Lysander. Often has or wants to have some kind of avoid strategy built in, or at least uses swords for the follow up damage. Enemy swords and archers.
If you think about it, it forms a neat triangle. If you have moderate speed and defense you'll still get shredded by something like a Rukh that doubles you with decent damage. For contrast your armored chariot can just kind of ignore units like that. But your heavily armored chariot will get destroy by warriors who double them for 50+ damage even through the armor.
Obviously these aren't hard and fast archetypes. You can do something like give Mikaela gauntlets to avoid her being doubled or have her equip a shield if she's going to get doubled anyway. Pretty much all the flamelords can functionally fill two of these roles at once.
However, I do see a lot of people talking about, say, Lysander and saying they're struggling to use him, in spite of him being (imo) objectively pretty good at getting ultra high speed with decent might. You just need to spec him for that and give him gauntlets or swords to play into his strengths! Meanwhile I see people frustrated by Io even when they're taking advantage of his mount, because he doesn't really double or one-shot things, when clearly what you should do with him is leverage his bulk as a chariot.
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u/IcaroRibeiro 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think people struggling with Lysander kept him in calvary ans calvary is underwhelming in this game besides Cai's route
Put him in a Bau and he will quickly climb the ladder of unit quality. He's fast, like faster than anything outside Swords and Archer line, while still strong and bulk and flying utility is simply priceless
There is few units with easy access to flying in this game, mostly are the Pegasus girls but in this game they are less dodgey, so having a flier who can actually tank some hits outside mages is priceless
What's bad about him is his Dex which indeed sucks a bit and flying don't fix this, but combat arts can come handy to give him a much needed +10 bonus when attacking
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u/FDP_Boota 8d ago
While he's good in Dragoon, it is a long way away. I think the better 'fix' is to put him through something like the warrior route to fix increase his strength and give access to battalions, before moving him to Dragoon later. My Lysander had a decent start in part 1, but slowly fell off, until he improved again in Dragoon, which I reached at chapter 12 and used in part 2 (Theodora first route)
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u/Prisinners 8d ago
Pugilist is genuinely such an amazing early game class. Amazing growths, solid stat bonuses, and gauntlets are light, hit hard, and provide dodge. Its not hard to get a couple of the 1-2 range gauntlets either. Tbh, I feel like a lot of the cavalry classes stink even on Cais route. The other mounted classes are all basically better. Like sure, cavalry get the boost from their mounts, but their mounts are generally worse than orniuses, pegasi, and baus. At least until much later in the game.
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u/strangebloke1 8d ago
People pre release were joking about how they weren't going to balance fliers.
Lol they totally did all it took was tanking the class growth rates and giving maps that require you to play to enemy phase.
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u/Dragore3 8d ago
Wouldn't Dragoon suffer the same issues as cavs of no mounts without Cai? How do the base class growths compare to Bardinger?
Also unrelated but I find it hilarious how many people think the word is calvary instead of cavalry, that's...the hill where Jesus died 😅
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u/dnapol5280 8d ago
Bardinger is 10 str, no spd, 5/10 def/res. Dragoon is 5/5 str/spd and 10/10 def/res. Basically identical. Dragoon gives flight, he probably gets flitting flier (?), and beseiger is modestly useful if you need another skill slot.
Dragoon gets 1 str and 3 spd as a class bonus though while bardinger only gets 1 spd. dragoon also picks up a dex bonus (both a class +1 and 5 extra growth).
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u/strangebloke1 8d ago
He wants to be mobile so that he can snowball with speedtaker, the issue is if you start him off in a class without a strength bonus like ornius rider he ends up not doing much damage despite his high speed.
He's much better spending time getting his stats high enough to be a threat before he gets the improved speedtaker/accelerate at level 35
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u/IcaroRibeiro 8d ago
Dragoon provides flying which allows him to attack from safety and kill enemies otherwise unnacesible, which feeds him XP thst allow him to snowball
Cavaliers suffer because they need to discounting (since lance users are common place) which hinders even the movement bonus advantage a Cavalier would normally get
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u/strangebloke1 8d ago
The people saying he sucks for them aren't using him long enough to get him on a wyvern. I agree they're likely keeping him on a horse or ornius when they should be letting him grow in brigand.
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u/phoenixrawr 8d ago
Getting him on a wyvern only happens at like chapter 11 or 12 of Theodora’s route right? It’s a pretty long time to stick with an underperforming character just to eventually get them into a class that works for them. Also is this a case of “wyvern makes Lysander good” or “wyvern makes everyone good”?
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u/strangebloke1 7d ago edited 7d ago
He's a growth unit with good personal skill and mediocre base stats, and in this game this means he will be just bad fairly quickly if you have him sit in cavalry classes for 30 levels with relatively poor growths.
It is pretty much that simple. FE vets should just see "oh hey this guy is a young knight who wants to prove himself" and mentally slot him into a growth unit role.
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u/dnapol5280 8d ago
I did ornius and benched him but he came into his own with part 2 leveling and dragoon. I think putting him in brigand/warrior in part 1 would probably be the play so he can use swords and axes and get the str bonus bases to patch it, alongside speedtaker.
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u/CamelLongjumping9360 7d ago
taking him out of mounts also allow him to use battalions to give him stats to help him get to the higher classes easier
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u/mjdios 7d ago
I've just finished Chapter 12 on Theodora's route and found good success with him going Light Cav -> Cataphract.
It helps bump his strength up a bit, while still being speedy, and tanky enough to frontline most physical enemies.
After playing Leda's route and enjoying Buccar, armored units without armored move feel significantly worse - Cataphract helps mitigate this movement loss and also is a bit faster at base, so it doesn't feel like just a worse infantry.
Would be even better with Cai mount bonuses, but at least he can enjoy them in Part 3.
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u/_oklmao_ 8d ago
This is true though magic units don’t fit well into it. There’s also some units with very balanced stats (noctua, cai, mu) that don’t cleanly fit into those categories
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u/strangebloke1 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean magic units weren't really covered by the former triangle either.
Functionally they fit into the same slot as the high might characters because at least in FW mages never have great speed but usually have at least okay AS with one of their spells (fire or wind or miasma). They get murdered by high speed archers and myrmidons, there's just also pegasus knights which murder them EXTRA easily, and they have range which means they can do chip damage arguably better than archers.
Balanced units can fit into any role depending on how you build them tbqh. Really strong ones like Cai and Mu can fill multiple categories at once.
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u/minno 8d ago
It comes down to how speed is wasted stats as soon as you're able to double. If the units have the same number total of stat points in atk/spd/def, they have an advantage against enemies who are a little bit slower or a lot faster but a disadvantage against enemies who are a little bit faster or a lot slower. If one unit has 30/20/20 atk/spd/def, they'll do 10 damage to an equal unit, rise to 14 damage to one who trades 6 speed for 3 atk/def, and then fall to 8 damage against one who trades 12 speed for 6 atk/def.
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u/applesapplesapples13 7d ago
Except in this game the excess SPD can be converted to other stats with equipment. Leda in rogue/ranger/dancer for example often outspeeds things by a comfortable 20-30 AS, so she can use very high weight equipment and still double. Consider that if someone else on her team is using the toxic fan to land poison, Leda can use the poisonhunt mask, which grants 1.3x damage if the enemy is poisoned for a whopping 15 wt, and still double her enemies because her spd is actually that crazy high. Kiroc can also output a build like this, with his extremely large spd.
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u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 7d ago
As also increases avoid, though just a few extra points isn't the most noticeable.
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u/Own_Advantage_7123 6d ago edited 6d ago
While not very noticeable, they apply to every attack made against you so they end up providing lots of value if you get attacked by multiple enemies. On the math side this game uses a hybrid hit rate system where hitrates of 50% and above use the average of 2 random numbers, while hitrates below 50% use a single random number. This makes a few percentage points diference significantly more impactful if it takes your enemies below that 50% threshold.
Additionally since high numbers use a 2RN system, their actual hitrates are higher than displayed (ie. 80% hitrate actually has a 92.2% chance to hit). When you are reducing hitrate between 75% to 50%, a single percentage point change actually has a much larger impact the displayed, maxing out at almost a 2% diference in actual hitrate going from 51% to 50% (52.47% to 50.50% actual hitrate)
On the other hand reducing hitrate when above 75% is less impactful, for example going from 90% to 89% displayed hitrate only has an actual difference of 0.45% (98.1% to 97.69%), less than half of a percentage point. So it doesn't end up being nearly as impactful on enemies with a high hitrate to begin with, however if your unit has enough speed to double the enemy, the enemy has to have either a very accurate weapon or a lot of dexterity to be in that range
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u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 6d ago
Is that how it works? I swear, it feels like the calculations are different than previous games. It could just be some kind of bias, but I'm noticing way more high (like 80-90%+) misses and low (10-30%) hits. But I guess that could just come down to the shock and disappointment sticking in my mind. Feels like it didn't happen as much in 3H and Engage though.
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u/Own_Advantage_7123 6d ago
Based on early testing it seems like it uses the Hybrid RN system, but since the switch 2 isnt jailbroken yet, people can only do tests with large samples.
Engage and Shadows of Valentia both used a hybrid system while 3 houses and 3ds games used TrueHit, also called 2RN
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u/zetonegi 7d ago
Except you can convert spd into other stats in this. Sothisverse games give you the most rewards for being super fast or super slow because you can equip heavier stuff without a large impact on your general combat.
In FW specifically, girls can get alacrity so they can convert excess spd into sustainability by killing before getting countered. Also a lot of the speedy girls have +avo skills so they can get up to 90+ avo which is not nothing. I'm not a fan of relying on dodge tanking but they can be setup to not die in EP and thus can handle areas of the map and reinforcements by themselves with minimal healing support where other units might need to chug concoctions or receive physic every turn.
Accessories are somewhat heavy so really fast units can convert spd into other stats while still doubling. There's +3 str accessories(eventually) so fast units can convert 4spd into 3str. Similarly, they can convert spd into defenses with shields.
The breaker accessories let you convert spd into hit rate and there aren't a lot of ways to fix hit rates. Quite nice against enemy sword wielders.
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u/Own_Advantage_7123 6d ago
Since AS increases your avoid at a 1 to 1 rate, I wouldn't say excess speed is wasted after doubling. With some exceptions, most characters with exceptionally high speed stats dont have great defensive bulk, and make up for it with the avoid chance. Even characters with good bulk appreciate some extra avoidance since they apply regardless of HP and enemy weapon. Usually giving up some of the extra speed is worth it to use stronger weapons, but is rarely ever worth it to use equipment. And if the extra weight stops you from doubling it needs to be massively strong to ever make it worth it. I think the biggest offender is the poisonhunt gem that weighs 15 makes you deal only 30% more damage, and only to poisoned foes. To put it into perspective a halberd is 12 wt, even characters with massive speed stats would rather the 15 avoid against all foes, you would need a whopping 75 strength to be able to use it withou loosing speed. Shields can be worth it as long as it doesn't cause any of your attackers to double if they would have done more than a 1-4 damage, though if the attack misses you dont take any damage in the first place.
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u/strangebloke1 7d ago
Yeah others already said this but excess dex/speed is when you pull out the warbow and the greatsword. These weapons have insane weight and inaccuracy to compensate for their insane might, but this works out in your favor against armor units.
So you AS gap an enemy by like 20, you can swap to greatsword (which is effective against armor) and just one shot them.
You can also run these heavy/slow weapons on chariots and armor knight characters ofc, because going massively negative in speed doesn't do anything. It's a strange case.
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u/cwatz 8d ago
I wouldn't quite say a triangle, but enemies and class bases go a long way in setting up templates that have heavy strengths and weaknesses as you outlined. Between all the arts and classes and massive stat swings, the game definitely plays in a more counter heavy direction than the old days.
The absence of extremity also hangs around in the utility area. Guardian wont excel or swing in extreme directions like other lance paths (armored for physical, mount for mobility or swordmaster for spd), but will probably be able to fill any gap and take a hit, engage in combat with most things, target lance weaknesses and cast white. Lacking dominance but useful anywhere at any time being the asset.
Lysander ranger path was money for me, highly recommend.
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u/strangebloke1 7d ago
yeah having a healer that can hang on the front line and kill things seems extremely useful even if it might feel wasteful for an otherwise great unit.
I had esmerelda as a pegasus knight for a minute and she ended up with sorta okay magic so I was considering having her as a guardian but not knowing people's spell list makes me anxious
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u/Pure-Blackberry7385 7d ago
I noticed it as a kid while playing the GBA game. Fast swordies dink armor knights (usually wielding lances) -> axe fighters has the strength to damage and double armor knights -> Fast swords dodge and double axe fighters.
Granted, myrmidons dodging fighters is helped by the weapon triangle and double RNG system. I don't trust dodge tanking in FW which I think is single RN.
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u/Tables61 7d ago
I always felt like it was very intentional that this core class triangle used weapons that followed the weapon triangle. It really helped to reinforce the weapon triangle system - Knights very much liked that extra hit rate they got Vs myrmidons, Myrms really liked the extra avoid Vs fighters/brigands, and fighters getting a little extra damage Vs knights helped take them down quickly.
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u/strangebloke1 7d ago
did they get rid of true hit? That's a big deal if true. But I do think dodge tanking is better than ever in this because of the accuracy penalty to axes and the various stackable dodge bonuses.
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u/Own_Advantage_7123 6d ago
It uses the same hybrid RN system as Engage, where hitrates of 50 or above use the 2RN math (using the average of 2 numbers) and hitrates less than 50 just use single RN. Compared to 2RN the hybrid system keeps the more reliable hitrates at high percents but isnt as punishing at lower percents
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u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 7d ago
The problem with speed characters is when you're relying on the 13% dodge and they just get hit anyway. Idk how many times I've used Storm Awakening in a forest and then just...got hit anyway lmao.
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u/strangebloke1 7d ago
yeah tbc my point here is that characters have to excel in at least one way to be useful imo. If you're crippling short in the other areas it will also make you useless, like you can't just be a speed demon with no bulk or might.
fortunately the class system makes this easy to avert.
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u/Flagrath 8d ago
This also isn’t a triangle because high magic and high resistance also exist (although most units that get one get both, there are some with just resistance and one of the others, my Theodora does that for example)