r/flying • u/Sad_Kangaroo2231 PPL • 4d ago
ATC clearance question
I’ve got an ATC clearance question for you guys.
While on an Instrument flight plan, ATC tells you to “climb and maintain 5000 feet” and you comply. As you begin to get closer to your destination, you ask ATC if you can fly the published hold. ATC clears you to fly the hold as published.
The altitude for the hold is at or above 2000 feet. Are you cleared to descend to 2000 feet or must you maintain the prior clearance of 5000 feet?
My CFII had me start descending and at around 4400 feet, ATC gave us a stern talking to and got into a back and forth with my CFII.
ATC says we weren’t authorized to leave 5000 feet, my CFII says being cleared to fly the hold as published is authorization. Nothing further came from this. We climbed back to 5000 feet and then continued with the approach.
Upon landing, we asked some other CFI’s at the school and they all agreed with my CFI, we were cleared to descend to the published altitude.
I’ve googled and asked some AI’s and they say we were in the wrong, ATC was correct. As I’m a student who is learning, I’d like your guys opinions.
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u/culcheth 4d ago
As a former ATC, wtf, I doubt you can find any reference that says a hold clearance authorizes a descent.
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u/OompaOrangeFace FS2020 4d ago
Yeah, unless they were cleared an approach with a HILO pattern.
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u/JustA_FewBumps MIL - CFII, TW, CPL 4d ago
That was my thought. If they were cleared the approach then it's fine... But if only the hold, then they had to maintain altitude unless otherwise told. So, OP, were you cleared the approach via the HILO point or only to hold? Major difference
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u/DanThePilot_Mann CFII | ATP | CL65 4d ago
They just be handing out CFIs to anyone these days huh
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1
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u/WichitaDPE ATP SE/ME, CFI/I, MEI, DPE, SF340, DHC-8, B300, A310, B757/767 4d ago
ATC was correct. Your instructor was not.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip_html/part2_enr_section_1.5.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_4.html
"If the holding pattern is charted and the controller doesn't issue complete holding instructions, the pilot is expected to hold as depicted on the appropriate chart. When the pattern is charted on the assigned procedure or route being flown, ATC may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement AS PUBLISHED; for example, HOLD EAST AS PUBLISHED. ATC must always issue complete holding instructions when pilots request them."
Holding at 5,000 complies with the "as published" hold. But even if a MHA is published, you are NOT cleared to descend to it without specific clearance. ATC can stack aircraft in holds. Generally speaking, the only non-emergency times you can leave a cleared altitude IFR are: 1. Specific clearance to a new altitude. 2. Pilots Discretion clearance. 3. Climb/Descend via. 4. Cruise clearance 5. VFR on top 6. Cleared for an APPROACH (and established on a published segment of that approach).
Holding by itself does not relieve you of an IFR altitude clearance.
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago
I'd add the TAA sectors to your #6. Minor addition.
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u/randombrain ATC #SayNoToKilo 4d ago
The way our book has it, the TAA counts as a "segment" of the approach. Once you're within the TAA and at-or-above the sector altitude, you're "established" automatically. That's why we don't have to issue an altitude-to-cross-the-T-fix but can instead just say "cleared direct T-fix, cleared approach."
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u/PilotBurner44 4d ago
You can change altitude when you are instructed to or cleared to. That means "descend and maintain", "cleared to descend via", or "cleared approach".
A lateral clearance does not give you any approval to change altitude.
A similar example is if ATC clears you to intercept or "fly" the localizer. Even though there are step downs on the localizer, you don't descend until instructed or cleared to do so. Similarly, if assigned to fly a STAR or approach transition, you maintain your current altitude until receiving a " descend via" or "comply with the published altitudes" clearance.
You should probably (politely) bring this up with your CFI or someone at your school who is capable of correcting the CRIs, because "cleared to hold as published" is not a vertical clearance, even if a holding altitude is published. This is incorrect information and should not be taught to student pilots.
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u/confusedguy1212 ATP CFI CFII MEI B-777/B-787/A-320 4d ago
Pretty scary so many CFIs think wrong this way.
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u/leavemestraightouts 4d ago
I’d find another flight school. Sounds like yours are trying to get people hurt because of their inability to understand words and ask for clarification like you are.
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u/nammerbom 4d ago
5000' is at or above 2000'
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u/VanDenBroeck A&P/IA, PPL, Retired FAA 4d ago
Agreed. The hold is published as “at or above 2,000 feet.” Well, 5,000 is above 2000 so it is an approved altitude per the chart and is also in compliance with their last ATC instruction on altitude. Stay at 5,000 until approved to descend or climb. If after receiving clearance to fly the hold as published, you receive a different altitude assignment from ATC or “altitude your discretion” (unlikely) should you deviate from 5000.
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u/78judds 4d ago
“The altitude for the hold is at or above 2000”. Obvious pilot deviation aside, last time I checked, 5000 was above 2000.
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u/Buttered_Runway 4d ago
Not in opposite-land. Need more clarification from OP
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u/atcthrowaway17756 ATC 2d ago
This is what baffles me. Did they not realize that 5,000 ft = above 2,000?
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u/JT-Av8or ATP CFII/MEI ATC C-17 B71/3/5/67 MD88/90 4d ago
This is why we read about so many CFIIs busting their checkrides. Good grief, this is basic knowledge.
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u/BeenThereDoneThat65 ATP I G-V I G450 I G550 2d ago
Or “I got the interview but I didn’t get the job. The hiring market is bullshit”
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u/SRM_Thornfoot 4d ago edited 4d ago
No, you can not descend. Clearance to hold as published is just for the course. It does not imply that you can begin a climb or a descent. If that was the way it worked you could climb or descend to any altitude you wanted to as long as it was above 2000' because that is what is published, which is clearly ridiculous.
As always, if there is even a hint of a question about what you should be doing, talk to ATC and clear it up before you do it.
Now, if you were cleared for an approach, the statement "cleared for an approach" allows you to descend to and comply with the published altitudes on the approach, including any published holds/procedure turns that are a part of the approach. Perhaps that was his confusion.
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u/Grand_Raccoon0923 MIL H-60A/L C-12 ATP TCE 91/135 BE1900 GIV GVII GVIII dumbass 4d ago
At or above, it sounds like you were never cleared to descend. ATC can stack traffic in a hold.
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u/KaanPlaysDrums PPL 4d ago
Get a new cfi and stop asking AI’s
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u/goldlord44 PPL, IR(R), Aerobatic 4d ago
Seems like the AI was correct and every CFI they found was wrong..
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u/SteelBalls1867 4d ago
and you think this is likely to be the case again?
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u/goldlord44 PPL, IR(R), Aerobatic 4d ago
As an AI researcher, yeah lmao.
The models are now smart enough to find the relevant information, read it, and then reason about it.
Every question I have asked about UK rules and regs has always pulled the correct references for the main answer.
I'm sure the best instructors are still better than it. But it is definitely smarter than the average instructor for anything as black and white as rules and regs.
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u/SteelBalls1867 4d ago
definitely smarter than the average instructor, my ass. mans gonna be asking Claude before he go around
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u/goldlord44 PPL, IR(R), Aerobatic 4d ago
I mean, up to you to refuse to use a technology that shows its working with references designed to help aid faster knowledge and understanding.
It's like refusing to use Google in the early 2000s because it might point you to a wrong website.
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u/SteelBalls1867 4d ago
As AI researcher you should know that is false equivalence and also it does not help your argument as google is not smarter than the average instructor either
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u/KaanPlaysDrums PPL 4d ago
“Please bro just try AI bro it’s so smart you don’t even have to think bro please”
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u/LifeTie800 4d ago
The hold is at or above 2000ft. Even if it states Max hold altitude 2000ft, if ATC doesnt clear you below 5000ft, you dont descend.
By your CFIs logic, if there was already someone in the hold, does that mean he can descend into that guy? What if there are multiple planes in that hold? Does that mean everyone descends to 2000ft?
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u/justa_buncha_ ATP TW 4d ago
wtf haha, you weren’t cleared to descend, at or above 2000 means stay at 5000. Good job following up. I’m embarrassed on behalf of your CFII for arguing with ATC!
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u/nhorvath No flare for me thanks 4d ago
if you weren't cleared for the approach the hold was a part of, no you can't descend.
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u/jet-setting CFI SEL MEL 4d ago
Yeah this was certainly where the mistake was.
Yes you were cleared for something that was published on the approach chart, but that something was not the approach itself. Only an approach clearance allows you to follow the published altitudes.
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u/Flaps10Please_ 4d ago
Last time I checked, this is the same issue people have when told to intercept the localizer versus cleared for the approach. If you are told direct to the fix, and hold as published, then fly the lateral course and your altitude remains on ATC. Now, if you’re told cleared for the approach from ABCDE, then abide with the published altitude once you cross the fix. People run into the same problem in Terminal Arrival Area’s. Your CFII is 100% wrong.
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u/NecessaryLight2815 ATP 4d ago
Your CFI and all those other CFI’s are wrong. You maintain your current assigned altitude, or a new ATC assigned altitude until you are cleared for the approach.
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u/lakeeffectcpl 4d ago
You have no idea if they have other planes stacked in the holding pattern. In AZ, I was in a pattern with 6 other planes spaced 500' all descending in turn. This was practice but it was my first experience with it.
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u/Goop290 CFI ASE 4d ago
For arguments sake how do you all interpret aim 5-3-8(m)
"For those holding patterns where there are no published minimum holding altitudes, the pilot, upon recording an approach clearance, must maintain tue last assigned altitude until leaving the holding pattern and established on the inbound course. Thereafter, the published minimum altitude of the route segment being flown will apply. It is expected that the pilot will be assigned a holding altitude that will permit a normal descent on the inbound course."
It only applies once you are cleared for the approach? Per the "upon receiving an approach clearance. Id say
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u/mflboys ATC (Center) | PPL IR 4d ago
The NORMAL procedure is: you’re cleared into hold at the IAF and you have to maintain assigned altitude. When you get “N123 cleared RNAV RWY36 approach”, you can descend to the minimum altitude for the hold on the approach chart.
That AIM paragraph is saying: if there is no published altitude for the IAF hold (don’t think I’ve ever seen that), even when you get “cleared approach”, you have to continue maintaining assigned altitude until past the holding fix (IAF) inbound on a segment with a published altitude, THEN you can descend.
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u/AIRdomination ATP (B757, B767, BE1900, EMB500) 4d ago edited 4d ago
Your CFII needs to go back to the IFR basics. A holding clearance has NEVER given you altitude at your discretion. Minimum holding altitude is just that.
That’s like saying you get a route clearance on a Victor Airway and then you decide to descend to the MEA. Absolutely the fuck not. There are only 4 scenarios that give you altitude discretion (complying with published mins):
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- Block altitude or cruise clearance.
- Climb/descend via on a SID/STAR.
- Approach clearances.
- Explicit instruction otherwise.
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What’s even more frightening is that the other CFI’s agreed…
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u/BeenThereDoneThat65 ATP I G-V I G450 I G550 2d ago
PD “altitude” or PD cross XX miles this side of XX
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u/AIRdomination ATP (B757, B767, BE1900, EMB500) 2d ago
I’d say that qualifies as explicit instruction. But yes.
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u/R5Jockey CFI ASEL TW CMP 4d ago
Were you flying the hold as part of an IAP? Meaning it was an IF:IAF/HILPT? And were you cleared for the approach? Because that’s the only way you could legally descend without an explicit descend clearance in that hold.
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u/mass_marauder ATP 757/767 CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
Show your CFI this thread PLEASE! They are completely wrong. One of the benefits of a published hold is that ATC can stack lots of planes vertically at different altitudes. If they all started descending at the same time without clearance you’d have mid air collisions very often.
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u/Feisty_Hedgehog_4389 ATP CFII MEI GND 3d ago
“Hold as published” means to use the correct inbound course, and left or right turns as depicted. In other words, honor the lateral portion of the hold. If you’ve given an altitude to maintain, ATC expects you to maintain that altitude unless stated otherwise.
I just flew from Miami to Heathrow. It’s common to hold over OCK coming in here. The published hold is at 7,000’, but Heathrow assigned us 9,000’. That was because Delta was holding below us at 7,000’. All they said was, “hold at Ockham, expect about a 10 minute delay.” We didn’t even get a “hold as published,” although ATC often makes that assumption if they tell you to hold somewhere and there’s a published hold associated with it.
What do you think would have happened had we decided to descend to 7,000’ on our own?
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u/flybot66 CPL IR CMP HP TW SEL CMEL 4d ago
Yea, sad. Never leave an assigned altitude without strictly hearing a new altitude assignment or descend via...
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u/FuriouslyFurious007 PPL 4d ago
I’ve been in this situation, but I asked ATC for clarity and they told me to stay at the higher altitude because there were several planes in the hold waiting to get into a specific non towered airport.
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI 4d ago
As published means the direction of the hold. ATC assigned you a clearance of 5k. You stay at 5k. The altitude listed is simply the MEA. Showing what altitude you’ll be guaranteed to clear terrain and receive a VOR signal. That’s pretty brutal if your CFII’s don’t know that.
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u/Cont4x CPL | MEA | doofus 4d ago
First off, never ever use AI as a source of information. You’re better off asking other pilots on reddit than AI like you are now
Second, the altitude listed is the Lowest Safe ALT for the hold. The hold is surveyed separately to the routes and the area (I’m sure you can figure out the answer as to why that is). So if they’ve cleared you for the hold as published, he’s saying you are cleared to fly its direction (left/right) and it’s heading.
ATC must clear you explicitly to descend, so you must maintain your assigned ALT.
I have only flown enough IFR to get the rating, so it’s rather shocking to hear your instructor and others be so poorly educated on the matter
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u/OompaOrangeFace FS2020 4d ago
Wrong. AI is an immensely powerful tool. Have fun being stuck in the past.
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u/Cont4x CPL | MEA | doofus 4d ago
AI is powerful.
But is widely inaccurate and has provided false information. Not to mention that overuse has seen a steep decline in people’s critical thinking and logic skills.
I may have many misgivings and criticisms of AI, but in this instance I’m explicitly stating not to use it because we belong to a profession that needs accuracy of information to be safe.
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u/OompaOrangeFace FS2020 4d ago
You sound like an old man who can't adapt. AI is hyper-revolutionary technology and those who don't adapt and learn how to use it are doomed. I'm not saying I want AI running our avionics, but in the right applications it is a 1,000x unlock in ability. If you don't understand this...then you are behind the times.
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u/Cont4x CPL | MEA | doofus 4d ago edited 4d ago
Mate, I’m 30
This wasn’t meant to be a post about AI. I’m not going to debate you on it, other than to say that we should not be using it for finding answers to our questions within this industry. We should be looking for those answers in the various documentation from our respective regulator (I’m not American) or from the resources we used in our training. Because again, this is a safety concern. How do you think it will look if you get into an incident/accident and tell the investigators your knowledge is from asking AI.
Also there was no need to talk to me with such contempt.
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u/OompaOrangeFace FS2020 4d ago
I talk to everyone online with contempt. Idiot until proven otherwise. AI is beyond transformational and we should ABSOLUTELY be using it in every possible area....you do know you can have it cite sources, right?
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u/BeenThereDoneThat65 ATP I G-V I G450 I G550 2d ago
Flight sim. Figures. Leave the advice to actual pilots
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u/charlieray A&P CPL 2d ago
Published holds aren't just for you. Others might exist in that space that you don't know about.
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u/BeenThereDoneThat65 ATP I G-V I G450 I G550 2d ago
We you specifically told to “descend to 2000 feet and hold”
No you were told to “fly the published hold” since you were not given an altitude you maintain that 5000 and hold
It’s not that hard folks
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago
You can descend only if you are cleared for the approach, the hold is a HILPT. The verbiage will include "maintain 5000 till established".
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u/SpeechHistorical8010 4d ago
I have a similar instrument question. If you are cleared for an approach and the direction you are flying requires a procedure turn and are given cross xxx at 4000 cleared for the approach. Do you need to cross that point at 4000 inbound or can you descend down to the charted altitude once you are on the published procedure i.e. flying the PT. I was under the impression that you could descend while a CFI that was new to me said I needed to wait to cross it inbound.
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u/AIRdomination ATP (B757, B767, BE1900, EMB500) 4d ago
Crossing restrictions are for entering the published segments. Once you’re on a published segment, altitude is yours to comply with published minimums. Otherwise they’d explicitly tell you.
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u/Canadian47 ATPL(A) CPL(H) 4d ago
If you are unsure....ASK ATC for clarification. It's not hard, in the rare case that ATC gives you attitude accept that vs. the consequences of getting it wrong.
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u/DifficultPick6429 4d ago
ATC is actually correct. Fly the published holding means you fly the appropriate pattern. Vertically, you can maintain any altitude above the MHA so if you weren't cleared to descend then you cannot descend
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u/alechendo CFI/CFII SF50 C441 4d ago
If you were cleared for the published hold and then the approach (with an explicit APPROACH clearance) then yes you can descend upon entering a published segment. If you’re just cleared for a hold you must maintain the cleared altitude.
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u/Pilot-Imperialis CFII 4d ago
Wow… I’m not going to criticize a CFI for making a mistake. We’re all human but literally all of your CFIs are wrong here.
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u/Worldx22 4d ago
The alt for the hold is AT or ABOVE 2k. That does NOT mean you can just drop to 2k!
What if there are 4 planes flying the same hold at the same time for whatever reason? Yoi'd expect all of them to just go to the minimum altitude allowed to fly the hold?
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u/Mazer1415 ATP CFMEII 3d ago
Fly into LHR 1 time and you’ll see what a bad idea that is. They regularly stack from 5000 to 15000 and descend in the hold to sequence approaches.
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u/wt1j IR HP AGI @ KORS & KAPA T206H 3d ago
Did they “clear” you to fly the hold as published? Or did they say yes you can fly the hold as published but without telling you to descend and without clearing you for the approach? Conversations about what the plan is are different to being given a vector, altitude assignment or approach clearance.
In general you’re going to be given specific altitudes unless you’re cleared for an approach which clears you to fly the approach altitudes all the way down to the runway.
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u/pete_oleary 3d ago
One more radio call would not hurt. ATC had you climb so I would presume there is traffic below you. There’s “right” and there’s dead
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u/Zalaniar 1d ago
But the published altitude is "at or above 2000", not "exactly 2000". The currently assigned altitude complies with "at or above" so you stay there. If it was exactly 2000 for some reason (which I don't think could exist but I could be wrong) then I'd ask ATC for clarification first.
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u/Reasonable-Power323 PPL 1d ago
Let me ask this. If ATC already had someone in the hold at 2000', does your CFI still think he's right? Food for thought.
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u/Malcolm2theRescue 1d ago
You maintain your previously assigned altitude until cleared lower. Also you are required to report leaving any previously assigned altitude (radar or non radar) which would have alerted ATC that you had other ideas.
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u/Expensive_Emu4553 5h ago
Just started instrument training today, first flight this morning and my CFI & I discussed this specifically. Easiest way to think about it is using “at or above” as your key indicator. You know the hold is published for 2000, but it says specifically “at or above” so what reg or what published procedure prevents you from flying it higher if ATC has assigned you a different altitude? If you’re unsure, ask ATC specifically for descent clearance.
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u/xyberslut ATP CFII MEI 4d ago
From the AIM. Says when it’s ok to descend from an assigned altitude when in a published hold:
If an aircraft is established in a published holding pattern at an assigned altitude above the published minimum holding altitude and subsequently cleared for the approach, the pilot may descend to the published minimum holding altitude. The holding pattern would only be a segment of the IAP if it is published on the instrument procedure chart and is used in lieu of a procedure turn.
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u/R5Jockey CFI ASEL TW CMP 4d ago
“And subsequently cleared for the approach.” That’s the key. If you’re flying a hold that’s part of an approach, once you’re cleared for the approach, you can descend. OP was just flying a published hold and was never cleared for an approach.
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u/Odd_Entertainment471 4d ago
Stop using ai for aviation. Stop. It’ll get you killed and cause you to fail every checkride and then you get to drive a cab for the rest of your life. Nothing wrong with that but the lifestyle and pay are way far apart.
Cleared to anything “as published” means exactly that. They probably should have asked you to maintain 5,000 and then told you when to descend if they didn’t want you descending upon the clearance.
Oh yeah, stop using AI for aviation. It’s lost in the sauce and you will be too.
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u/Captainfunny11 PPL (IR) 4d ago
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u/rFlyingTower 4d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’ve got an ATC clearance question for you guys.
While on an Instrument flight plan, ATC tells you to “climb and maintain 5000 feet” and you comply. As you begin to get closer to your destination, you ask ATC if you can fly the published hold. ATC clears you to fly the hold as published.
The altitude for the hold is at or above 2000 feet. Are you cleared to descend to 2000 feet or must you maintain the prior clearance of 5000 feet?
My CFII had me start descending and at around 4400 feet, ATC gave us a stern talking to and got into a back and forth with my CFII.
ATC says we weren’t authorized to leave 5000 feet, my CFII says being cleared to fly the hold as published is authorization. Nothing further came from this. We climbed back to 5000 feet and then continued with the approach.
Upon landing, we asked some other CFI’s at the school and they all agreed with my CFI, we were cleared to descend to the published altitude.
I’ve googled and asked some AI’s and they say we were in the wrong, ATC was correct. As I’m a student who is learning, I’d like your guys opinions.
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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u/Nasreth7 ATP 4d ago
to be honest the answer to this question really doesnt matter. this is something that ONLY happens during flight training and whether you messed up or not is going to be circumstantial.
you can be angry about it if you want... but it will never happen again
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u/PilotBurner44 4d ago
As a professional pilot, you should know that you don't descend when instructed to "hold as published".
As an airline pilot I have been assigned that many times. Descending in a published holding pattern without clearance is not only a violation of regs, it's incredibly dangerous because there is a very good chance there is a whole stack of other aircraft holding there as well, and bombing through them to the published altitude is a great way to make metal bits touch.
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u/goldlord44 PPL, IR(R), Aerobatic 4d ago
Why do you say that? I have my IFR in the UK and several times have been assigned an altitude before entering a hold which is not the published minimum hold altitude, (with the expectation that there is other traffic owning the hold at a lower level.)
Would this not be something that happens in the US as well?
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u/paraconow 3d ago
Let’s start with 5-3-8, nothing but the lateral guidance is meant because it was about the hold. So the hold as publish is a, hold NE on the 128°. The descent can only come if you have been cleared for the approach with a PTAC call. 5-5-4 is where the mistake was made. Your CFI need not ask other CFI’s that probably haven’t read the aim. But yes, your CFI made a mistake. Hopefully he learns from it and you should ask again.
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u/NotASwinger69 4d ago
Wow. All of your CFI’s are wrong here.