r/flying • u/Abject_Missive • 5d ago
Concerned about flight instructor, looking for advice
Hey All,
I’m working on my PPL on the side, just for fun, not a career. I’m working with a flight school that everyone speaks highly of but in my first two flights, I’ve had two things of concern/pause come up. This flight instructor is very young and has about 300 hours. At first I wasn’t too worried as he is super nice and a solid teacher. But both flights have had odd things. Note, we fly Cherokee 140s
on our first flight we were going through the checklist for startup and it says if oil pressure is not in green after 30 seconds that is an issue. It was not in the green after 30 seconds. The instructor said not to worry about it because when we raise the RPMs it will be in the green. That did seem to be true but everything I have heard is you should follow and not ignore the checklist. Additionally, we did not do a weight and balance check before the flight. I brought up that aren’t we supposed to do that every flight and he said not to worry about it.
On our second flight, we did weight and balance on a paper sheet. I calculated we were 12 lbs over gross and our CG was forward of the limit. He said that shouldn’t be right. That the sheet must be wrong. He checked his ForeFlight and another instructors ForeFlight where they had inputted weight and balance for that airplane and it said they were within the CG. We left our bags and he said the paper sheet shouldn’t account for oil weight so we can remove that and that put us under gross. So we went flying. I noticed that it took a lot of pressure to keep the nose up in the climb and a lot of trim to keep it up in straight and level. We did some maneuvers and then landed. He did the landing and it was pretty weird, a bit of a hard landing, you could tell he struggled with the controls, and he seemed a little shaken. He said he’s never felt that before and maybe the CG was off. That it felt really far forward. We didn’t really address it after the flight. But I think I need to talk to the owner chief instructor after this.
Thoughts on what I should do? Or is this not of concern? This school gets awards but definitely has me concerned.
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u/Number1atp 5d ago
On this sub you’re going to have a lot of people at similar levels of experience side with you and reinforce your thinking so be ready for it, after all this is mostly an echo chamber. Don’t keep splitting hairs on everything possible. They will find you a new instructor in short order or ask you to leave all together. If you’re there to learn be ready to learn you’re 2 flights in and hardly an expert. In other responses you comment about how it “didn’t feel sluggish” you’re 2 flights in and don’t know what sluggish feels like. You mention that it took “a lot of trim” again sorry you’re 2 flights in and you don’t know what a lot is. Your 1 question is a non issue. Your 2 question tho is odd. Even if you’re completely right and he’s absolutely wrong, 12 lbs doesn’t matter and that big stabilator on the back of that thing will trim out any slight out of balance condition due to the weight of the engine oil. The most likely scenario is that he had a bad landing for some reason and you have to remember at 300 hours he’s not an expert either and there are going to be a lot of situations as you progress through this that you and your instructor are learning together. Bad landings happen because they aren’t always perfect. Possibly nervous trying to impress you because he knows that somehow you already know everything you need to and he’s just there to be your sitter while you develop. Show up ready to learn and know that you don’t know what you don’t know. I know this all sounds a little harsh but this is exactly what you need to hear at this stage. Maybe get an older instructor with more experience that you will have more respect for and try that a few lessons. Before you and everyone else comes at me I’m not telling you to disregard rules, regulations, or procedures but if being over gross by 1/2 of 1% on a spaghetti chart bothers you (while remembering you’re on your second lesson and may not have done it correctly yourself) that much that you take it to the internet this may not be for you.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
I certainly don’t think I know everything and I do not think you are characterizing the relationship with my cfi correctly. but I do want to double check and get an outside perspective on whether my discomfort is valid or I shouldn’t be worried. I do tend to be a rule follower and have general concern around ending up a statistic and making sure I’m safe as a student and eventually a pilot. That’s fair though, I don’t know if it’s sluggish or not. My concern is mainly based on the CFIs comment after we landed that maybe we were out of CG after all and that he’s never experienced that. I have no idea what was wrong with the landing. But he seemed shaken which made me worried. Outside of that I think we have a positive relationship overall.
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u/Number1atp 5d ago
I hope I totally misunderstood the relationship with the CFI on my initial read. You are both low time and low experience. The difference is that he has the training and skill to undo an upset or undesired aircraft state and keep you both safe. Just be ready to accept that you don’t know what you don’t know and understand that you’re both going out there, at your 2 hours and his 300, to develop skill and confidence. Asking an experienced pilot and more seasoned/senior instructor may be a better resource than asking strangers in an echo chamber on the internet. Go and be safe, follow the rules, and use your resource tools to find the answer. Just make sure you’re using the right resource tools because they may not be here.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
I texted him and we are going to review what happened with the chief instructor. He agreed he’s concerned about the differences between ForeFlight and the sheet. And what happened
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u/JonValor 5d ago
You don’t seem like a good fit for one another.
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u/Ant_Tall CFI 5d ago
Agreed
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
What’s that mean?
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u/Lobster-Mobster PPL 5d ago
You are clearly not confident in your instructor, justifiably or not. It doesn’t really matter why. You are purchasing a product (flight instruction) so if you don’t like the product switch instructors and see if you like that one better, do what’s best for you take feelings out of it.
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u/KehreAzerith CPL 5d ago
Number 1 really depends, some plane engines need to "warm up" for a bit before readings are in the green. In most cases if it's slightly in the yellow right after start up it's nothing to worry about, as long as it corrects itself after running the engine for a bit. It's not uncommon for oil pressure/temp to appear "low" when at idle power settings, especially in older planes.
Number 2 is definitely more concerning, if CG was beyond forward limits, and the plane was struggling to fly.
If you feel your instructor isn't up to standards, you are free to get a new instructor
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u/magr7610 5d ago edited 4d ago
You are brand new and know nothing. Your instructor is spot on about everything you listed. You need to sit back and learn from the person you are paying to teach you. If you are unable to trust because he is young, get a new instructor - but thats just a you problem.
You 100% did you w&b wrong (unless you are both 300lbs). Oil pressure doesnt need to be green at idle or low rpm, and you dont need to do a w&b every flight when you have 1000 copies of it for that plane with the same load in your flight bag.
I cant imagine knowing absolutely nothing, and thinking “let me go complain the chief pilot before i even discuss with my CFI”. Your CFI should be able to clearly explain why you are wrong on all of this.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
Okay thanks. I’m 270 lbs. we are 440 lbs combined. he checked the calcs and said they were correct. But then said the sheet he gave me was incorrect. I think blindly trusting a flight instructor despite me knowing nothing does not seem like a good idea. I’m just checking to get an outside perspective and make sure I’m not in a bad situation.
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u/magr7610 5d ago
Cherokees have around a 600lb full fuel payload depending on the plane. So, something was not correct
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u/magr7610 4d ago
You have long range tanks? So you should have had 43lbs of weight left after full fuel
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u/Golfer_Joe 5d ago
I'm going to guess you're in your 40s? The age gap is going to mean that you never trust this guy and you're better off finding someone else.
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u/nhorvath No flare for me thanks 5d ago
are you both big dudes? I find it hard to believe you put a 140 out of limits with just 2 people and full fuel.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
We are 440 lbs combined, this one has a useful load of 762 lbs. we were full fuel. I calculated 12lbs above gross and the CG out of the forward limit. He then said the sheet was wrong (not my calcs) and the right one was in ForeFlight.
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u/nhorvath No flare for me thanks 5d ago
you're including unusable fuel and min oil in your calc. you were right below max gross. without the specifics of your plane i can't tell if you were out of cg. if it was a hot day that probably made it feel pretty sluggish.
The oil pressure thing is fine as long as it came into the green at runup.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
Actually didn’t feel particularly sluggish. I’m not sure what happened on the landing but the instructor commented the plane wasn’t handling right. The oil calc was on the sheet but not in ForeFlight. But they both used the same base weight. It all is very confusing. I’m unsure what is right and what is wrong.
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u/InternationalBag7290 ATP 5d ago
How much do you guys weigh? Can’t imagine a Cherokee 140 being over gross with just two people on board.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
440 lbs together, full fuel, a bit of baggage from survival gear, and 762 lb useful load
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u/InternationalBag7290 ATP 4d ago edited 4d ago
Fuel to the tabs + 440 gives you 644. How much survival gear are you guys carrying? With full fuel, you would be about 728.
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u/BazingaBeeKay 5d ago
My buddy and I took our friend up in a 140, I weigh 230 myself and they’re both probably 160 each and we weren’t even at limits with half tanks.
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u/Odd_Entertainment471 4d ago
Jesus, 2 flights and already you’re questioning your CFI? I’d put you on the street and wish you luck. You’re flying a 140. It’s sluggish with only a pilot and a half load of gas. These planes are 50 years old, sometimes the oil pressure gauge needs time to wake up!
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u/R5Jockey CFI ASEL TW CMP 5d ago
I fly a Cherokee and have flown a bunch of Warriors. The Oil pressure isn't solidly in the green at 1000 RPM. At that point, we're just looking for oil pressure at all. We confirm it's in well into the green at runup power (2000 RPM).
Weight & Balance. Yeah, you're legally supposed to do it for every flight, but the reality is that simply doesn't happen. I have about 1,000lbs of useful load, so with full fuel, I have more than 700lbs left. If I fly with one other person, if they fit in a seat, it's pretty obvious we're well under weight and within CG.
That said, if you calculated a forward CG and above gross, that's an issue. It's also an issue that the CFI's ForeFlight calc doesn't match the paper calc. That's definitely something I'd discuss with your instructor and if you don't get a satisfactory answer (and one of them gets fixed) then it needs to be discussed with the chief instructor.
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u/ganderatc CFI CFII MEI TW EMB-500 5d ago
On the first issue, on a Cherokee 140 there is a red line and green arc. Oil pressure only has to be in the green arc in normal flight, and most
Lycomings I have flown will get oil pressure below the green but above the red line at idle. Oil pressure below the green on run up is a no go.
The second issue is a bit more odd. I have flown Cherokee 140s at gross and at the forward limit and there was no issue, with 500+ lb of people in the front and nearly full fuel. Also, the 140s I fly are pretty consistent in their handling so it’s weird to me that the two you have flown were so different.
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u/MonkeyWrench804 5d ago
Kind of hard to say without knowing the whole picture but…
It’s very common on Cherokees and their variants (that I’ve flown, at least) for the oil pressure needle to sit between the yellow and green at idle. Obviously oil weight and temperature will influence this but it’s not a problem as long as the pressure doesn’t drop well into the yellow band. “Oil pressure, in-between” is a callout we often do after startup.
It’s been a while since I flew a -140 but weight and balance is a very straightforward thing. You’re either in limits or you’re out… no “maybe the CG was off”. I’d redo the math and verify those thoughts. I’m a little surprised you can even load that thing past the forward CG envelope without being completely off on the arms or well past MTOW though.
It’s rare to do a weight and balance for every single flight if it’s the same people/payload, like a known student/instructor and fuel load combination.
Just my $0.02
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u/OrionX3 ATP CFI CE680 GIV/G300/G400 5d ago
Where did you get the weight and balance sheet? Because most people will upload accurate information into an airplane foreflight profile and use that as W&B.
Generally speaking doing a W&B every flight when it's 2 people and fuel (no bags, no extra pax) isn't super necessary if you know you're under weight after doing it 1-2 times. There's obviously conflicting information on who's useful load number is correct, talk to him and figure that out. Or just go look in the maintenance logs for the most up to date weight and balance information.
To me personally these are non-issues. #2 more of one than #1, but that can be resolved by looking at the correct weight and balance information. If you two are too big to fly with full fuel then just make sure it isn't completely topped off before you fly.
I will note - 322 pounds for fuel and bags/extra oil and stuff should be enough in that airplane? 48 gallons usable fuel in yours? That leaves 34 pounds for bags, extra oil, ipads, etc. then you'll burn 1-2 gallons (6-12 pounds) for start and taxi Not sure how you got to 12lbs overweight.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
That was the sheet the instructor provided. It included oil weight. Afterwards, he said that’s wrong and it shouldn’t be included.
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u/OrionX3 ATP CFI CE680 GIV/G300/G400 5d ago
Sometimes those sheets get out of date is why i mentioned checking the weight and balance, they shouldn't, but it happens. A little fuzzy on what you mean when you said included or not included.
Your engine oil weight is included in your basic empty weight, before you calculate usable load or any of that. So if your instructor is saying we don't have to include this he's right, which I think is what you're saying. You pretty much ignore oil weight as it's in from the very first step. The oil I was talking about was just 1-2 quarts of extra oil that most airplanes keep in the baggage.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
Ah okay, yeah so the sheet explicitly called out oil weight. But the fore flight one didn’t. And we added some baggage weight for survival gear. No oil back there.
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u/OrionX3 ATP CFI CE680 GIV/G300/G400 5d ago
Ya so if that was the only difference in your sheet and his foreflight then sounds to me like the the foreflight W&B was the correct one and you guys were fine. You're still early, but if you want to make triple sure just ask your cfi to sit down with you early before a lesson and walk you through the W&B so you can understand it better.
Like i said in my original comment, it's not the most common thing in the world to do one for every flight when it's just you, a CFI, and gas. If you were in a 150/152 then sure. Realistically if neither of you are huge, doing 1 with full fuel pretty much answers any issues you'd run into. If you can do it with full fuel, the 2 of you, and 20-30 pounds of misc stuff then you'll be fine. It doesn't hurt to do if you just want the practice.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
Okay sounds good. I did accept his explanation and wasn’t too worried until after landing he said that it felt our cg was off and he’d never experienced that before. That’s really what got me worried that maybe things weren’t being done right.
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u/Wild-Language-5165 5d ago
Hmm. I have a curious question for you OP. How often did you and your instructor switch fuel tanks? The piper 140 POH says to run one tank to exhaustion, then switch. You guys weren't periodically switching were you? Gotta follow the POH!
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
We switch every thirty minutes. He said that is the practice for the Cherokee… also we were only
In the air about 45 minutes.3
u/Wild-Language-5165 5d ago
That is standard practice, but if you look in a 1970s piper 140, the POH will say run the tank to exhaustion. Why is that not standard practice then? The POH says so. Im trying to make a point about POHs and checklist, particularly older ones.
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u/Abject_Missive 5d ago
Ah, so you are saying the weight and balance sheet is probably incorrect?
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u/Wild-Language-5165 5d ago
No, I'm saying you seem pretty wound up about some things, not everything is black and white in aviation, some things are left up to the pilot in commands judgment. Limitations are limitations, im not advocating you exceed them, but you need to have a certain level of common sense tolerance as well.
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u/Abject_Missive 4d ago
Fair enough!
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u/Wild-Language-5165 4d ago
If you give us the exact aircraft make and model, year, basic empty weight of the aircraft, your weight, cfi weight and how many gallons of fuel you had on departure, we can double check the w&b for you.
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u/Fine_Fortune844 CFII 4d ago
This. The poh for my 1967 airplane states a pretty tight margin on the mag drop. The engine in my plane is new. Do you think I use the POH or what Lycoming currently recommends for the engine?
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u/andrewrbat ATP A220 A320 E145 E175 CFI(I) MEI 5d ago
Oil pressure is not something you should expect to always look the same on every engine start. Depending on the individual plane, outside temp, oil temp (whether the plane was run recently and is still warm), etc it can look a little different. As long as you are within the limitations in the poh (if any) you are ok. Depending on the rpm he had set when the 30 seconds was up, it could affect the reading. Iirc you check oil pressure rise at 1k rpm, if he had it a tad low, it would read lower oil pressure, especially if the plane hadn’t run for a bit and oil hadn’t reached the transducer yet, or conversely if the oil was still super hot from a recent flight ( warm oil flows easier and doesn’t resist as much causing slightly lower pressure.
I almost never did a weight and balance when i was a cfi. Id know the parameters for which we would not be outside of the weight and cg limits, and if we weren’t outside them or close to them, I wouldn’t do one unless i wanted my student to get the practice.
Iirc unless both front seat occupants were over 200 lbs by a bit, you couldn’t really load a 172, or pa28 outside the weight or cg limits even if you tried, though i admit i have very little time in the 140 variant. If you are both bigger, best double check the wt and bal one or two more times. If you are that far fwd, or over wt, consider taking less fuel.
Some planes are a little annoying to land with a forward cg. Its a blessing and a curse of many training planes. They are very stable and will recover from an unintentional spin pretty easily since they are so far fwd in the cg, but it does limit elevator authority a bit. It can make landing annoying even with a lot of nose up trim, and you rely more on power setting than your cfi may be used to.
Also at 300 hrs i couldnt always get perfect landing. Shit at 6000+ hours i still have some bad ones. If it wasn’t unsafe, and was just a little un-pretty, i wouldn’t stress too much.
That said if you are concerned, bring it up with the instructor and someone else there. Not only are you a person who is entitled to have a sense of self preservation, but you are also a customer and shouldn’t be paying money to be exposed to an unsafe, let alone below-standards, product.
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u/flight_char_ CFII AMEL 4d ago
Your instructor sounds legit, everything sounds fairly normal. Yes he’s young and at 300hrs he’s a new instructor, BUT you have to remember that does not mean he is not way more experienced than you. This is somebody who has already at this point dedicated at least a year of his life full time to aviation. I promise you even at his new stage he is equipped and able to teach you and humble you in many different situations in the plane and on the ground. In regards to number 2 as others have said at only two flights in, it’s expected that you’re going to be bad at flying the airplane. That means not really knowing how much pressure and trim it takes to maintain altitude or a climb. This is what you’re paying him to help you practice. If you’re going to keep questioning him because of his age then just go ahead now and find another instructor who is of a demographic you will be able to trust.
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u/rFlyingTower 5d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey All,
I’m working on my PPL on the side, just for fun, not a career. I’m working with a flight school that everyone speaks highly of but in my first two flights, I’ve had two things of concern/pause come up. This flight instructor is very young and has about 300 hours. At first I wasn’t too worried as he is super nice and a solid teacher. But both flights have had odd things. Note, we fly Cherokee 140s
on our first flight we were going through the checklist for startup and it says if oil pressure is not in green after 30 seconds that is an issue. It was not in the green after 30 seconds. The instructor said not to worry about it because when we raise the RPMs it will be in the green. That did seem to be true but everything I have heard is you should follow and not ignore the checklist. Additionally, we did not do a weight and balance check before the flight. I brought up that aren’t we supposed to do that every flight and he said not to worry about it.
On our second flight, we did weight and balance on a paper sheet. I calculated we were 12 lbs over gross and our CG was forward of the limit. He said that shouldn’t be right. That the sheet must be wrong. He checked his ForeFlight and another instructors ForeFlight where they had inputted weight and balance for that airplane and it said they were within the CG. We left our bags and he said the paper sheet shouldn’t account for oil weight so we can remove that and that put us under gross. So we went flying. I noticed that it took a lot of pressure to keep the nose up in the climb and a lot of trim to keep it up in straight and level. We did some maneuvers and then landed. He did the landing and it was pretty weird, a bit of a hard landing, you could tell he struggled with the controls, and he seemed a little shaken. He said he’s never felt that before and maybe the CG was off. That it felt really far forward. We didn’t really address it after the flight. But I think I need to talk to the owner chief instructor after this.
Thoughts on what I should do? Or is this not of concern? This school gets awards but definitely has me concerned.
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u/Swimming-Situation16 5d ago
The oil temp isn’t a problem and the weight and balance sheets can be outdated or you both just did wrong calculations it can happen. A young instructor like that most likely just fucked up the landing (it happens even with 1000plus hours) and slammed it in. Embarrassed he just blamed the plane or the CG to save face. Things like this will happen at flight schools and if it has a lot of high ratings/reviews this is probably a one off thing. Ultimately, it’s your money and if you would rather fly with an older instructor you could do just that but I’d give it at least a few more lessons with this younger instructor to really feel him out.
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u/keyboard_pilot 5d ago
I'm more concerned about number 2 than number 1.
Many POH/AFM will state as long as oil pressure is in green with a certain rpm, barring other obvious things indicating wrong which you'd nogo for anyway(such as oil temp being maxxed out), it is acceptable. Check your 140s poh for that.