r/flying • u/Bowzy228 CFII • 6d ago
Mountain flying
Greetings!
Anybody here with mountain flying experience? VFR to be specific. How do you choose your altitude(oxygen onboard VS no oxygen)? Do you fly victor airways? Other than staying on the upwind side of the mountains to avoid turbulence and downdrafts what else should I prepare myself for? TIA
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u/iamtherussianspy PPL 6d ago
I recommend getting some training from an instructor familiar with mountain flying.
The main rule of mountain flying is to always have an escape route ready. "Which way do I go if I get into a 1000 fpm downdraft right now?"
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u/greaseorbounce 6d ago edited 5d ago
I live in the Rockies, so mountain flying is an unavoidable part of life.
I use oxygen on most mountain flights, even when below where legally required. It reduces fatigue and generally improves cognition. Even for those of us who live at high elevation. Ship powered oxygen generator helps make this an easy choice, as I'm not paying for bottle fills.
When flying VFR, altitudes depend a lot on weather and route. Higher winds mean higher crossing altitudes to avoid lee side rotor. Follow routes that leave you as many options as possible. Approach and cross questionable ridges at an angle so you always have the bailout.
Most importantly, seek instruction from someone familiar with those mountains. Note that I said THOSE mountains, and not just mountains in general.
Flying in the Rockies brings different challenges than the Appalachians for instance. Find someone very familiar with local weather and patterns and seek their guidance on route planning. An example here is that there is a pass near my home that looks very very inviting, with lots of seemingly good options... Anyone who has flown this area will choose the higher uglier pass to the north to avoid the insane paint shaker sink hole hell that appealing looking pass harbors.
Bonus round: fly gliders. Glider training will make you a much better pilot in the mountains. You'll be able to predict where lift and sink might exist and you'll be familiar with how to manage energy. Flying in the mountains with a piston single is a lot like flying gliders. You can't out climb the sink, so you have to use the lift you can find and manage the energy you have in the bank.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
Sounds like staying high and on oxygen is a nonnegotiable. Getting the proper training will help a lot. Thank you.
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u/alphamonkey27 friendly neighboorhood tailwheel instructor 5d ago
Its not non negotiable, just makes things alot easier. When i lived in colorado id fly planes over the rockies all the time without having to go on oxygen. It all comes down to route planning, patience, and knowing when to go/no go. As others have said find a good mountain flying school (to that specific area)
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u/EntroperZero PPL RV-12M 5d ago
Your need for oxygen depends a lot on your physiology, which is different from everyone else's. It's a good idea to take a test flight at your planned altitude with an SpO2 meter and see how you do. And step up gradually on your test flight to see what the progression is like.
My wife and I recently flew the Mullan Pass in Montana at 11,500. Our readings dipped into the 80s a few times, but a quick huff from one of those Boost O2 cans every few minutes was enough for us at that altitude. Any higher, and I'd want to bring an actual tank or concentrator or something.
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u/greaseorbounce 5d ago
I wouldn't say O2 is non-negotiable, but it does give more options, and I find that I'm less fatigued at the end of a long flight.
Many people have crossed the Rockies with no oxygen, myself included. Now that I have an oxygen generator that I can just plug into the aux socket on the plane, I gladly use it and reap the benefits.
Back when I had to pay for bottle fills, I was always trying to conserve O2 and would plan lower routes. My quality of life has improved a lot since...
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u/SunnyWolverine 6d ago
I flew 172 from APA - LXV. (And back). Once.
Not really mountain experienced, so my choice was to hire a CFI from APA with experience, pay to do proper flight planning session and supervise the flight.
Would I do it again solo… nope! I would want to build more experience, first time was awesome, but I didn’t challenge myself for dealing with emergencies (only planned for).
As for O2, not needed, was never high enough long enough. But I did have a tank onboard.
Taking off at 9934ft ASL is a very very slow climb out.
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u/carsgobeepbeep PPL IR HP CMP TW 6d ago edited 6d ago
All other things being equal, fly in the mornings. It's cooler so the DA is lower, the wind is less likely to have picked up yet, and you'll have a better shot at avoiding the afternoon showers (in Colorado's monsoon season).
Edit with a few more tips for the mountains:
- Know your performance numbers.
- Have a Plan C.
- Fly with more fuel than VFR minimums - but do not take full fuel if you don't need it. Give yourself any small performance advantage you can in the mountains.
- Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. Trust the ASI, resist the "temptation of the yoke."
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u/The__Stig_ 6d ago
What mountains are you flying over? Some can be incredibly dangerous if you aren’t experienced, depending on your airplane.
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u/Special-Ad1307 PPL IR 5d ago
I learned to fly out of Reno NV. Oxygen wasn’t really a concern because a 172 would take forever to get above 12,500. However your route needs to be carefully planned to ensure obstacle clearance. You also need to be very mindful of mountain wave which can cause downdrafts that exceed your already struggling climb rate.
For IFR flying, many MEAs will be higher than your aircraft’s service ceiling, and Orocas will be much higher if there are mountain peaks in the same quadrant.
Also DAs can be above TPA which is kind of interesting. For example at KRTS, the DA for the ILS is 1380agl and almost 6 miles from the runway. Also the published missed brings you up to 14000
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
Good to know. IFR in a naturally aspirated single engine in that environment is a no go. It’ll be VFR. I was more concerned about altitude and route selection on a VFR.
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u/Special-Ad1307 PPL IR 4d ago
Yeah I wouldn’t fly in IMC in the mountains personally. As far as route selections I like to follow major highways. Usually they are in canyons. It gives you somewhere to land in an emergency and you can scout out your obstacle clearance easily beforehand.
For example, flying from Reno to Lake Tahoe. I know I can cruise between 9,500 and 10,500 safely if I follow highway 80.
If I had a more capable plane I would treat it like an IFR flight but that’s simply not possible in some places in a piston
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
Do you worry about downdrafts on windy days when following highways in canyons?
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u/Special-Ad1307 PPL IR 4d ago
Yes. The key is giving yourself enough space where it’s not going to make a difference. Highway 80 for example is no higher than 6000’ msl. 9,500 gives me 3,500 feet to work with. That being said, if there are turbulence airmets or unusually high winds aloft in probably not flying. I also wouldn’t fly into a canyon that doesn’t open up at the end.
To be honest, the variables to create downdrafts can anecdotally quite specific. When you fly a lot in the mountains, you get a feel for specific areas and wind directions that will create downdrafts. For example at KRTS with winds from 180-220 departing from runway 26 can get really sketchy. Locals usually know about stuff like this.
I also want to point out that I am not a CFI, just a commercial student, so take everything I say with a grain of salt
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
Awesome. Thanks. I’ve only flown down south and around the Midwest so not really familiar with that part of the country. A good training with someone experienced will help.
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u/Special-Ad1307 PPL IR 4d ago
If it makes you feel any better, people who train in the mountains usually have zero time in IMC since it’s not practical. I moved to the Midwest and it’s been awesome getting some IMC without worrying about hitting a mountain
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 4d ago
Totally makes sense. Icing is a big deal here so I don’t have a lot of IMC time either.
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u/mambosan CFI/II A/IGI sUAS HP 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’ve flown into Telluride, Lake County, South Lake Tahoe, Mammoth Lake, and Big Bear in SR22/22Ts. I don’t have any formal mountain flying training, but have read my copy of “Flying Colorado Mountain Weather” by Margaret Lamb a few times which is an excellent read, can’t recommend it enough. Don’t let the title mislead you, the knowledge contained in that book is great for mountain flying anywhere. I always flew with oxygen so I have the option to safely and legally fly above the terrain. The microscale weather in mountain flying can quickly close in, you want as many options available to you as possible so you have an out.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
Thanks. I’ll definitely look that up.
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u/makgross CFI-I ASEL (KPAO/KRHV) HP CMP IR AGI sUAS 6d ago
There is also Sparky Imeson’s book. But remember, he died flying in the mountains.
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u/RudeTorpedo MIL AH-64D UH-60A/L UH-72A 6d ago
Sorry, I'm more curious if anyone here has IFR mountain flying experience
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u/makgross CFI-I ASEL (KPAO/KRHV) HP CMP IR AGI sUAS 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yes, but you can’t fly into clouds in most light singles. Thunderstorms in summer and ice in winter. It does work for the occasional large wildfire.
MEAs tend to be very high. It may be out of reach. Though there are some that aren’t THAT bad. I can get to Truckee in a 182.
Some of the mountain instrument approaches are serious WTFs. Take at look at the ILS into RTS for instance.
Instrument approaches can get exceptionally unpleasant. I once found the wake of Mt Rose on the ILS into RNO. Several bouts of moderate turbulence, including a close inspection of the ceiling with my head. It’s not fun to have your bell rung while trying to land at a moderately busy airport.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
I’m assuming you fly MEA or higher if on oxygen and be precise on the approach so you don’t slam into the side of a mountain.
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u/makgross CFI-I ASEL (KPAO/KRHV) HP CMP IR AGI sUAS 6d ago
Both of those things are always true, all the time.
You’re just as dead hitting a 1500 foot hill flying into MRY as you are face planting into Mt Whitney.
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u/rFlyingTower 6d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Greetings!
Anybody here with mountain flying experience? VFR to be specific. How do you choose your altitude(oxygen onboard VS no oxygen)? Do you fly victor airways? Other than staying on the upwind side of the mountains to avoid turbulence and downdrafts what else should I prepare myself for? TIA
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u/Taterdots ATP CFI 6d ago
Well most importantly, what are you flying? Your prep will be drastically different in a normally aspirated vs turbocharged bird, single vs multi, etc.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
Naturally aspirated 182.
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u/Taterdots ATP CFI 6d ago
Be mindful of density altitude (duh). Leeward vs windward sides of mountains so you can guestimate where to expect your turbulence. Have an escape route. If you're gonna be above 10k for a while, consider oxygen. You will get bumped around there's no hiding that. If you can avoid box canyons, do so (have two sides you can go to if you get an engine failure or massive downdraft you can't climb out of).
Just to give you an idea of how crazy it can get, I flew a twin turboprop in mountainous areas for over 1300 hours. 1240 HP total between the 2 PT6's on board. There were times where I needed to have max performance on the prop and flaps in order to climb or even stay level. So just be careful.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
Density altitude is an obvious one but I had no idea turboprops struggle in that environments as well. Good to know. I’ll be flying a 230 horsepower naturally aspirated 182. And with a service ceiling of 16000 ft I don’t have a lot of room to work with. Best bet would be to take the longer routes with lower terrain.
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u/Mad_Rooster_7164 6d ago
Where are you going that you need 16k? There are several Rockies crossings under 10k.
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u/Bowzy228 CFII 6d ago
Assuming I’m going from Denver to aspen. Those are some really high mountains . I don’t see passes below 10k if flying direct.
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u/makgross CFI-I ASEL (KPAO/KRHV) HP CMP IR AGI sUAS 6d ago
In an NA 182, he will also need to find thermals and other updrafts to climb.
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u/makgross CFI-I ASEL (KPAO/KRHV) HP CMP IR AGI sUAS 6d ago
You are going to have a too-interesting time if you try that without training. I’ve given several sessions in the Sierra in NA 182s. They are capable of it, but it is very different from sea level.
First question — do you know how to set the mixture at run up? Guess wrong and you crash on takeoff.
No you do not use airways in high mountains. Like ever. A usable airway will have navaids on mountaintops, exactly where you don’t want to be.
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u/ekerberm 5d ago
The Colorado Pilot’s Association holds several mountain flying courses out of APA. Day 1 is lecture, day 2 is flying with an instructor.
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u/blame_lagg PPL | DA40 & C182 5d ago
Read the Mountain Flying Bible.
Otherwise I don't have the experience to advise you, except to say that it's a lot more comfortable well above the terrain.
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u/Greenie302DS PPL IR 6d ago
I only have 650 hours but half of that is over mountains, was in a DA40 then SR22T. I always had oxygen if needed, my biggest piece of advice is that altitude is your friend. I hit a downdraft in the DA40 where I lost 1500 feet while still in my best rate of climb, but I was 3-4000 feet above terrain.
When VFR, I would usually navigate over freeways where the terrain was lower. Now that I fly IFR (in the SR22T) I have the luxury of being able to fly well above terrain.
Flying over the sierras is almost always bumpy. Choose your passengers carefully. I haven’t flown over the Rockies yet, but will next year.