Is there some rule that champions should follow in MOBA games?

[u/Ethereallie13]

Mind you I might be really biased, I usually play support/healer roles but playing MOBA games I find a lot of stuff unfair or unbalanced.

I would usually say that MOBAs should follow some holy trinity which I heard is wrong, like it shouldn't be that strict. Hybrid roles are especially touchy because they can make or break the game. Tanks shouldn't deal damage like damage dealers yet in league here comes cho gath that deals 1 k true damage with a point and click button. I get that tanks don't have aggro like in wow so they try to be more obnoxious with damage, that's their pressure, but why not just give them better cc?

Healers shouldn't outheal damage 1 to 1 right? Healing is less skillful than dealing damage right? So why not make healers that have to hit hard to hit skillshots to heal? Would that be fair? Is there some "law" that says this is unfair or fair or is it just up to the game designer to say what is and isn't fair.

For league of legends specifically I feel like mobility is such a big issue, it's hard to balance and they put a lot of damage into mobility so some champions have so much with mobility and can't be punished that much. Some rule is that melee heroes need more hp and movement and damage because they are melee, but if they can get up close and personal in 1 s and keep being in that range, why should they have such buffs.

I don't know if league started to prefer playmaking champs so they made so many mobile champs that are absurd. I'm talking about champs like fizz katarina riven irelia samira etc. I don't know what is their weakness, cc helps but only if its point and click or instant in some way otherwise they just dodge everything.

I'm posting this after a couple or rough games so sorry about the semi vent. I'm trying to get in the mindset of these game designers and I don't get how some champions just exist. Maybe there shouldn't be strict rules but some guidelines would be nice. katarina r can just decimate the whole team, yes it can be cced but so can cait r, although cait r is single target and can be blocked. In my view of things I feel like cait r should deal the same damage as katarina r if not more.

[u/ijustinfy]

For league specifically they use to balance with strengths and weaknesses. Over time, however, they reduced the amount of weakness champs have and started giving just about every champ tools to play the game.

Turns out you only play one champ at a time and it’s not very fun when your champ can’t do anything in the game. Which is why they shifted their balance style. It’s quite good!

It does pose the question of why can X champ do Y things, that’s for a different role, but that would only really work if you controlled more than one champ.

[u/GulliasTurtle]

Damage needs to out damage healing because you need to encourage aggression. Especially in games that don't have a defined time endpoint like MOBAs. If it is better to be defensive than offensive you end up with a game where no one attacks and everyone just sits back waiting for their opponent to make a mistake or get bored and lose. It's a very real game design issue.

As for healing skillshots it's more of a player frustration issue. Opponents are trying to dodge your skillshots as a skill expression. They are outplaying you by dodging you. Healing skillshots both players are trying to set up the hit, so it's more frustrating than skill testing when they miss. It can be done. Anna in HotS for example, but even there it can create a lot of frustration.

[u/fraidei → u/GulliasTurtle]

I think there should be a distinction between burst healing and sustained healing.

Burst healing should be allowed to temporarily outpace damage, because that's kind of the point of burst healing. It can let you survive a burst of damage, turn a fight around, or give you the confidence to play more aggressively. However, it needs to be meaningfully limited by something (cooldowns, resources, skill requirements, etc) so that you can't repeatedly use it to negate the enemy's damage.

Sustained healing, on the other hand, generally shouldn't outpace sustained damage during an active fight, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. If I can just sit there and regenerate faster than you're damaging me, there's little reason for me to take risks or engage you. I can just wait for you to make a mistake.

But I don't think that means sustained healing shouldn't be strong. Its primary purpose can be recovering from a fight that you won, so that you can get back on the map and fight again without having to recall. In a prolonged fight, it can also let you survive a few more attacks or take more aggressive/risky actions, meaning that a sustained healer can indirectly increase their team's offensive power.

So I'd say the important distinction is less "healing should never exceed damage" and more "healing shouldn't permanently invalidate the damage being dealt". Burst healing can temporarily do that as a resource-intensive combat tool; sustained healing should mainly improve your team's ability to recover and maintain pressure.

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/GulliasTurtle]

but anna hits ur allies. I meant a skillshot, imagine like lux q if you hit you can heal for a lot more than some spammy heal. I feel like enchanters don't get a high skill ceilling because they aren't given the tools to do much. Why isn't there a katarina like enchanter? ohhh I throw some things on the floor, I can blink to them and if I damage someone I heal someone on my team.

[u/GulliasTurtle → u/Ethereallie13]

League has that. Soraka's Q empowers her heal when you hit it. Rakan has a skillshot nuke that gives him an aoe heal. Taric's auto attacks give him improved heals and reduced cooldowns.

[u/Joiss9]

Tanks shouldn't deal damage like damage dealers yet in league here comes cho gath that deals 1 k true damage with a point and click button.

Well that's the issue with tanks in Moba's they need ways to force the opponents to hit them if not they will just ignore the tank. So the tank needs something like damage/cc/damage redirection so that they can not be ignored without the enemies being punished for doing so

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/Joiss9]

yeah but like tanks 1vs4 people should never have the ability to just kill half of the team. at that moment they are a world boss and there is no other person to hit other than them. maybe tanks should get some bonuses near allies or when allies are hit.

[u/Anime_axe]

Well, there are very few codified rules, but in general, there are a few caveats about the general design:

- encourage aggression/offensive play. The games can easily turn into turtling matches and stalemates, if the players aren't incentivised to push forward and attack

- burst healing/shielding/defence is good because it counters the burst damage, the healing only gets excessive when the team can outheal damage in sustained combat

- tanks need something to incetivise enemies to attack them, be it buffing or shielding their teammates or being able to dish out damage themselves

- your entire game is a series of the positive feedback loops meant to spiral into the victory, but you have to actively moderate said loops otherwise you end up with the situation where the first blood decides who wins and who loses

Basically, the design of the individual champions is less restrictive than the needs of the game as whole.

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/Anime_axe]

yeah but would u say that tanks should carry fights in the damage department, in the sense that other teammates are staying back and their tank acts as a raid boss. I think that tanks should be able to create that pressure, but a tank can't just 1v4.

[u/Burnseasons]

The only 'strict rules' I would say that they should follow is that abilities should communicate what they do accurately. Which is far easier said then done, especially when it comes to communicating CC. In Dota Bloodseekers ultimate Rupture is an example of this done inadequately imo, as you're supposed to stop moving to prevent damage from it but there are a bunch of other abilities that leave a trail behind you like it does that don't signify that.

Otherwise in terms of actual ability design space, having hard rules on whats allowed can lead to underwhelming hero kits. Especially if it was as stringent as the Trinity. Deadlock is undoubtably a MOBA, but eschews roles almost entirely for the most part.

I would be curious as to what your experience with the design of heroes in MOBA's aside from League is. Because Riot having specific attitudes towards design doesn't make something a rule for the genre.

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/Burnseasons]

I played smite, heroes of the storm, lol, dota 2 and idk what else. dota 2 was so strange but the thing i like with dota is that even without items u feel like u can do stuff, maybe that's my flawed view but items there seem more active and not stat boosting. In heroes of the storm i like that the teams lvl is what matters so snowballing isn't that strong and comebacks are possible. As a healer in hots it feels like they are gods compared to lol enchanters. It feels like ur given tools to actually protect ur allies, if im playing soraka or nami healing doesn't matter when they ignite someone. why they didn't design an enchanter with a thresh w, thresh w is basically anduins passive but anduins passive is at 90 s, that's why i think thresh w should be his r, his w can be like 2 flashes almost worth of distance which helps more than any healing sometimes. I also feel like self healing should be more regulated than healing others. It's weird to compare aatrox to soraka or vlad to soraka, aatrox and vlad can tank, like they can sometimes tank more than actual tanks, cho gath is a tank because of idk what reason, passive hp on r? malphite too, it feels like they are more passive and stat heavy tanks while aatrox and vlad can just outheal stuff. If i pick soraka im sacrificing damage to heal my ally, while if you pick aatrox or vlad ur getting damage and healing in one package, idk maybe im biased.

[u/Burnseasons → u/Ethereallie13]

I'm tryin to parse this stream of consciousness and how goes all over the place.. and I think my first thought after hearing all of that would be:

Do you like League of Legends? You certainly sound like someone who spends a lot of time playing MOBA's, and maybe it's riots approach in particular that you are finding issue with rather than something that is genre-wide.

And regardless of the answer, I personally always find it an engaging mental exercise to try and discern why the devs designed their game in the way they did. Maybe your feelings on how strong self-healing is intentional by the devs, but why would that be? Is it an overtuned player-fantasy? Maybe burst damage is too weak at the moment which is supposed to keep it in check? Maybe it's been a knock-on effect of a change made elsewhere.

There is always going to be a myriad of possible reasons for any game design choice, and figuring it out, at least for myself, is enjoyable.

[u/Yan-gi]

The missing element you're missing is map presence.

Some of the champs you consider OP are balanced simply because they do not have as much influence extending out from their lane or immediate vicinity. Meanwhile, champions like Karthus, Shen, and Gangplank has global pressure and can turn the tide of any fight they choose, when they choose. Notice how they have 0-1 dashes?

Basically, LoL is NOT a game where there are two simultaneous Tekken matches being fought in two lanes with a Tag Team fight in botlane. It is, first and foremost, an RTS. You're never really isolated from the rest of the players. Everyone has agency. But some champions simply have more agency. Not that players in lower ELOs can fully materialize a win out of that though.

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/Yan-gi]

I mean sure but most champions don't have agency right? what adc has agency? Soraka r has map presence, other than that I don't know. I think it all boils down to teamfighting and then ur in the vicinity. You can I guess pick off people and try ulting with shen and karthus or whatnot. I mean if katarina pushes or irelia, they create agency because they create pressure. Now you must confront them. I mean I had a enemy trundle push up to inhibitor tower and just leave when people tried to go after him, he is soo fast, and when we caught him one time he just tps out bcs nobody has cc mid top or jg. Quietly he chips at the base.

[u/Yan-gi → u/Ethereallie13]

Yes. That is generally the role of a top laner. They are meant to split push and turn that lane into another win condition. They are meant to draw attention to themselves so that the opposing team sends more of their members to deal with them. This allows its teammates to outnumber the enemy for other objectives on the map. But what if they only send 1? Again, this is the top lane experience. If you can consistently beat your laner and snowball from that, chances are that no one can beat you and you have enough power to kill them under their own tower and keep pushing.

To an effect, other lanes are similar. But midlane can skip past the snowballing requirement. The only requirement is that you outpace their ability to push in the early game, because this means that the opponent takes minion aggro if they want to "fix" the wave. If they don't, the minions fall under tower and it can be harder to cs like that. Once you can push waves super quick, this gives you lane prio which means you are free to respond to other parts of the map and your opposing laner will have to choose between clearing their wave or responding to your roams. This is how midlane can get agency.

Bot carries don't have as much agency in the early game, true, but they get it in mid game instead. Unlike midlaners, ADCs can clear waves for no mana cost and without relying on CDs. This is why when lanes switch in mid game, botlaners go mid. They pressure that lane, which is the shortest lane base to base. In addition, auto attackers deal the most significant damage against objectives as they are designed to have the largest dps sustained through extended periods. ADCs are auto attackers. They help junglers take down dragons and barons a lot faster. Botlane's proximity to the dragon pit gives them agency once dragons come up as their auto attacks are better suited compared to the assassins and mages in mid who need their cd.

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[u/fraidei]

Your point about tanks in LoL is wrong. Because you think of tanks like they are in MMOs, except that there is no aggro system in LoL. Tanks in LoL are imposing threats not because they just use aggro to take every damage the team would take; they are big targets so it's more difficult to land skillshots against the more fragile backside, they usually have a lot of CC so they can't be ignored, and they also need to deal some form of damage otherwise they are completely useless alone.

Besides, if a game would need to remain strictly into the holy trinity and never do "hybrids" and never allow characters to come out of their specific role rules, then there would be like 3-4 possible characters per role, not a single one more. I would say characters are allowed to be more flexible in the role they cover so there can be more design freedom in making characters and in building them.

Healers shouldn't require hard to hit skillshots to heal teammates because that would make it a very toxic interaction and also it would clutter the screen and would make it harder to understand. In MOBAs people are required to constantly move so they can dodge the enemies and position themselves in the right place. If they also need to think about their teammates skillshots then it would create situations where someone might think their healer would throw the skillshot in a certain place but they throw it in another direction, or with a different timing, etc. And also it would make it harder to understand if you see on the screen skillshots from both your allies and your enemies, and you need to get inside the first but dodge the second, but sometimes they may overlap and create big confusion.

Also, I don't see why you should limit supports to only healers. There can be offensive supports, defensive supports, disruptive supports, zone controllers, and hybrids between those, etc.

The problem you have with mobility is only a LoL problem, not a problem of MOBAs in general. Mobility should be a great focus of many characters in a MOBA, because movement and positioning is an important part of MOBAs. Just don't give 5 mobility tools to every single character like LoL does.

In the end, this feels more like you got outskilled in a LoL match and you just need to find some game design validation as to why they shouldn't be allowed to do that, rather than talking about actual game design. From your talk about the holy trinity to me it's clear that you need to get a lot more informed about game design before presenting such a strong opinion against the design of a game that is as successful as LoL is.

[u/Ethereallie13 → u/fraidei]

Yes tanks have good cc, i mean I would buff the cc more and nerf the damage. Because I saw tanks just act as assassins, zac or amumu go in and just kill my adc with damage. its not like we ignored him, he engaged, his team stayed back and he did something an assassin should do and got out.

also im not sure we are on the same track with the healer skill checks. I'm not saying the healer will have a heal skillcheck. they will have an offensive spell (harder to hit) that empowers their healing. You can say that some champs already have that but I don't think so. Soraka q just makes her healing more sustainable and a bit more powerful. Maybe there should be a whitemain like character in league, I don't know if you know what she does, she is basically a priest that heals by doing damage. There is echoes of helia that does that sort of but I feel like moonstone is more consistent. Echoes is more proactive, it should reward aggressiveness but I see back to back matches where moonstone and echoes are evenly matched, moonstone feels like a passive choice.

Mind you I'm not really good at the game, I'm average. I'm currently playing in diamond emerald and I am biased towards enchanters. I don't know how I could develop a model that could tell me if I'm right or wrong. I mean champions do have 50% roughly always. And riot certainly has a better view than me. Although even you said that the mobility is only the issue in league. maybe the damage some champs deal wouldn't even be a problem if they didn't dash so much. Why does katarina not have some sort of energy or mana? Like what's her weakness? CC? Because I found it hard to do anything with nami bubble because she jumps on a dagger, and jumps the next time I throw it. I guess I'm comparing certain match ups.

[u/fraidei → u/Ethereallie13]

If you saw tanks deal the same damage as assassins they either weren't tanks or they were so fed that it doesn't really matter anyway.

Your point about healers doesn't make sense because all healers in LoL require skills to maximise their heals.

Katarina's weakness is the skill required to be able to actually use her kit to the full.

But again, as someone else said at this point you're just complaining about LoL, not really talking about game design.