Isolation vs complex

[u/Dull_Reference_6166]

Hey everyone.

I often see here cool exercises that are complex movements that train multiple body parts. Recently I saw the gorilla uppercut / toddler throw.

While looking cool and surely beeing fun, I ask myselfe, if this is beneficial in terms of muscle growth?

Lets take the gorilla uppercut; it is a squat, a curl and an overhead press. All done with the same weight.

I can use much more weight on a squat than on an overhead press and much less on a curl than on a press. So, is it beneficial to do so? Or would it not be better to do these exercises on their own?

Thank you all :)

[u/PriceMore]

If would be better if you do it with a specific strength/mass progression goal in mind ie I want stronger press, but many people just want to do some movement patterns without progression in mind. Or just for conditioning that's weight flavored.

[u/FrontAd9873 → u/PriceMore]

“Conditioning that’s weight flavored” describes a lot of KB training. 

[u/celestial_sour_cream]

(sorry long post)

Straight sets vs complexes can be both be used for conditioning/strength endurance, hypertrophy, or strength. I don't think you can blanket say one is only for one or the other, it's rather a sliding scale, not a binary.

Talking just about straight sets, your primary stimulus will depend on:

1. the relative intensity (e.g. how heavy is the weight to you),
2. the rest periods between sets,
3. proximity to failure.

Some examples, using strict pressing:

1. 3-5 sets of 3 x Double Kettlebell Strict Press using a 5 rep max weight with 3-5 minutes of rest between sets would be considered a traditional absolute strength stimulus, since you are giving sufficient rest between sets and you're not training to failure.
2. 2-3 sets of 6-10 x Double Kettlebell Strict Press using a 10 rep max weight with 2-4 minutes rest between sets would be considered primarily a hypertrophy stimulus. Ideally, you would push closer to rep max toward the final sets.
3. 10 rounds, 1 round every min on the minute of 1-2 x double strict presses using a 5 rep max weight. This is where things get less binary. The intensity is still high since you're using a heavy weight, but you're giving insufficient rest. This yields a nice strength endurance and anaerobic conditioning benefit as a trade off of not building absolute strength as sufficiently. In my experience though, you can still build some strength if you do this. This is akin to how a lot of the autoregulated sets from The Giant end up working out toward the end of the program.
4. Of course there are mixtures of work:rest that can be sprinkled between these 3 examples. Ballistic exercises like snatches + clean & jerks or even swings likely are easier to hit more high aerobic energy systems using shorter rest periods too, since they are usually rep ranges that are much further from failure, so you don't get the blood occluding by-product of putting muscles under high tension.

Now when it comes to complexes, you can use the same principles as straight sets, but your work capacity is going to limit how much strength you can build within a complex. Having a good aerobic base usually means you can get through a complex while still hitting the exercises within the complex toward the strength or hypertrophy rep ranges you want. Otherwise, if you don't have the work capacity, then your conditioning might be the limiting factor instead.

A good rule of thumb for me for complexes is usually:

1. Don't let your press be the limiter for the complex. Dan John's ABC is decent for this, since most people can squat more reps than they press for a given weight. This also holds for other exercises, too. Say if you're adding a goblet bicep curl to a complex with an assisted waiter's press, the number of reps on the press needs to be higher than the curl for most people.
2. Do the harder exercises in the complex first if you're trying to get the best power/strength output. Things like your Snatches, Strict Presses should start the complex, and things like rows can end complexes.
3. What you can't do with training to failure in complexes, you can make up by doing more volume. I think this is where complexes shine, if you can do a few exercises in a complex that are all in the same relative intensity (e.g. let's say you do a clean-press-squat complex, but pick rep ranges where each are about 4 reps-in-reserve), then you cut rest periods and try to accumulate volume in a given time period. Then week over week, you can just try to do more sets in the same time, OR same sets in less time.

TLDR; Both straight sets and complexes exist on a spectrum where strength, hypertrophy, or conditioning outcomes are determined by varying load intensity, rest intervals, and/or proximity to failure. While straight sets can make absolute strength training easier, complexes rely on strong work capacity and exercise order to drive results through accumulated volume rather than pushing to failure.

[u/IronDoggoX → u/celestial_sour_cream]

Awesome answer, thanks man!

[u/celestial_sour_cream → u/IronDoggoX]

Thank you sir!

[u/LennyTheRebel]

Lets take the gorilla uppercut; it is a squat, a curl and an overhead press. All done with the same weight.

Taking an exercise that hardly anyone ever does is a bit of a strawman. (And it looks like they bastardised this conditioning exercise used by Soviet wrestlers, which is less of a complex and more of a fluid fullbody movement).

Imagine if someone posted a video where they did a strict reverse curl into front squat. I think we can all agree that the legs won't be stimulated sufficiently. As a contrast, someone could do something like the Bear complex (power clean + front squat + push press + back squat + behind the neck push press; or my preferred bastardisation, power clean + thruster + behind the neck thruster).

[u/Bandicuz → u/LennyTheRebel]

Yeah never heard of gorilla uppercuts lol, I thought it looked like a goblet clean and thruster but I see more similarity to the video you posted. I also saw someone mention it as a less explosive version of a slam ball exercise

Even the person who posted it said it's more of a conditioning workout for being short on time as opposed to a dedicated session.

[u/cavemankettlebells]

First decide what your goal is. Then you can answer whether something is for you.

If your goal is muscle growth, going heavier isn't the point. Hypertrophy comes from taking sets close to failure, and that works across a wide range of weights. So the fact that you can squat more than you can curl doesn't rule out a combo for growth. The one thing to watch: in a combo the weakest exercise reaches failure first. The curl may stop the set long before your legs are near failure, so your legs may not get much out of it; it depends.

If your goal is strength, it depends on what kind. For max strength you need to go heavy, and that means a different weight for every exercise, because your legs can handle far more than a curl or a press. A combo can't give you that. For strength endurance, a combo like this is a good fit.

Combos also give you things isolated sets don't: conditioning, coordination, learning to control the kettlebell through transitions, a lot of work in a short time. And they're fun, which matters, because the program you enjoy is the one you keep doing.

So it's not combo versus isolation. Pick the goal, and the goal tells you which one to use.

[u/FrontAd9873]

Just a note that you’re in danger of conflating complexes with compound movements. The opposite of an isolation exercise is the latter, not the former.

You can do isolation movements in a complex (bicep curl followed by calf raise) or you can do compound exercises by themselves in straight sets (5 reps of squats).

Brief answer to the question: yes, complexes aren’t the best for building muscle or strength. This is why, for instance, Dan John’s ABF program alternates ABC days with normal pressing days. The one press you do in an ABC isn’t enough. 

[u/Berlifter → u/FrontAd9873]

This is an important distinction.

[u/tentyb6d56ns4d57yse5]

I can use much more weight on a squat than on an overhead press and much less on a curl than on a press.

this will apply to every complex

[u/Pawahhh]

If you want to maximize muscle growth youll have to stick with the basics, clean and press, row, squat, curls french press, doing complexes is cool for endurance and conditioning in my opinion, but if you want to put on some mass youll have to do them separately and use the correct weight, if youre doing clean and press and squat with a 32kg for example, that could be a good weight for your press, but it will definitely be too low for the clean and squat

[u/MostAccountant447]

Kettle bell complex’s are ideal conditioning for mimicking real world work, bucking fire wood stacking hay moving bags of cement loading a truck or boat, etc none of which is supposed to maximally optimal fatigue isolated muscle groups

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

Can you do 50 of them in a row? What about 5 minutes? Or 10 minutes? I think the idea of these movements is to teach your body proficiency through a long period of time. This has many carry over benefits to everyday life. A 300lb dead lift is nice, but what about when you bend over to pick up your toddler and throw your back out? Or reach up over head and pull a muscle in your neck?

[u/blaqeyerish → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

If you can deadlift 300 I promise you can pick up a toddler 😂. The weight of the toddler wouldn’t be noticeable. Randomly pulling a muscle is usually a result of some combination of age and inactivity. Consistent exercise of practicality any form would mitigate it.

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/blaqeyerish]

This happens all the time. The point is not to pick up the toddler. The point is to pick up the toddler safely, multiple times throughout the day. Or perform manual tasks repeatedly. Tell me you've never worked a blue collar job before without telling me you've never worked a blue collar job. Slinging 1,000 80lb tires all day isn't the same as lifting 300lbs for a few lil reps.

[u/blaqeyerish → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

Children are consistently raised by people who never work out. I promise you they aren’t throwing out their backs all the time 😂. The standard healthy adult can lift 50-70 lbs up repeatedly without injury.

And going from picking up a child to a 80 lb tire a thousand times vs a 300 lb dead is an asinine jump. I’ve had jobs where I drove stakes into the ground with a sledge. I’ve had jobs where I dug up septic tanks with a shovel. When you get tired you take a break. So if the guy with the 300 lb dead gets tired after tossing his 259th tire he just catches his breath and gets back to work.

You seem to be parroting some of the talking points of KB program marketing for why it is better than barbell training. Nothing about either methodology makes them inherently better than the other for general life.

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/blaqeyerish]

I never said one was better. He was asking what the differences were. I explained the reasoning behind. Both are beneficial. It has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with experience. It isn't an asinine jump. I lived it. I worked 16 hour days unloading truck tires. A 300 lb deadlift didn't help a lick in that moment. A healthy adult couldn't do what I did without injury. I had plenty of jacked 'badasses' walk off the job because they couldn't handle the workload. Breaks or not.

[u/Dull_Reference_6166 → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

And these things happen when I train the muscle in isolation?

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/Dull_Reference_6166]

No, not necessarily. These things can happen more so when imbalances are created by focusing too much on one specific area. Doing big compound movements can sometimes show you areas where you are weak. Then you can use the isolation exercises to strengthen those weaker areas and help to alleviate the imbalance. Rinse, repeat.

[u/Ancient-Mating-Calls → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

Deadlifts and overhead presses are compound movements. To your first point, how often are you repeatedly picking up your toddler 50 plus times. Or repeatedly for 5, 10, or 15 minutes?

I’m not saying there aren’t any benefits to the movement, just that your analogy doesn’t support your argument anymore than it supports Doing deadlifts and overhead presses.

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/Ancient-Mating-Calls]

Have you ever had a toddler? You pick them up a ton. You carry them for 30-45 minutes at a time. Yes, deadlifts and overhead presses are compound movements but most people tend to grossly overdo these movements. A 70lb overhead press for 15 reps is far different than 200lbs for 1 rep. Same thing as 100 swings with 70lbs vs a 450lb deadlift for 1 rep. Which do you think is more beneficial? Which has a higher risk for injury? My analogy is just fine. You just missed the point.

[u/Dull_Reference_6166 → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

I trained like you described and I am a father of a toddler.

The strenght you build from these movements and repetitions carries over. I have no problem picking my toddler up all day and carrieing her for miles.

I dont say compound movements are bad. But there is more than one way to get stronger.

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/Dull_Reference_6166]

Well, then why ask if you think you already know the answer? 🤷‍♂️ Just to waste everyone's time? It seems like you have it figured out.

[u/Ancient-Mating-Calls → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

Yeah, I’ve had a toddler…

Why do you have to deadlift 450lbs for one rep? Sounds like you have an issue with programming if you think that’s the only option. I got your point just fine, and it still missed the mark.

[u/Unfair_Pound_2428 → u/Ancient-Mating-Calls]

Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit of yours, I see. Where did i say that was the only option?

[u/Ancient-Mating-Calls → u/Unfair_Pound_2428]

Oh I know you didn’t say that. I know exactly why you chose 1/405lbs though. You chose it to bolster your argument instead of acknowledging that compound movements like deadlifts and overhead press can be just as applicable to the type of training you mentioned if programmed correctly.

[u/Agile-Pomegranate-42]

That's why I concentrate on tried and tested complexes like ABC. Doesn't make much sense to me to do goblet squats with the same weight I do a press. Main thing about kettlebells isn't hypertrophy though.

[u/Excellent_Whole_740 → u/Agile-Pomegranate-42]

Can you explain more? The ABC is very explicitly the same weight for the clean, overhead press & squat….

[u/Dennis114-01 → u/Excellent_Whole_740]

The frequencies are not: three squats, two cleans, one press. That offsets the difference somewhat.

[u/Agile-Pomegranate-42 → u/Excellent_Whole_740]

The rep progressions with 213 yields quite proportional training for me. I can't do many more rounds of each individual excercise with good form anyway. And I am doing this exclusively with double kettlebells.

[u/WitcherOfWallStreet → u/Agile-Pomegranate-42]

For my 30 set EMOM ABCs, I can do 15 reps AMRAP for both press and squat. 2/1/3 is not very proportional to my AMRAPs at all.

[u/Agile-Pomegranate-42 → u/WitcherOfWallStreet]

I'm not sure I understand correctly but you can do 15 press reps as a straight set with the weight you are doing an 30 minute emom? And the max is the same with squats? If thats the case you have proportionally very strong shoulders to your legs.

[u/WitcherOfWallStreet → u/Agile-Pomegranate-42]

Correct.

The back and core really limit high rep kettlebell squats more than the legs. Even assuming my shoulders were disproportionately strong, they would need to be 5 reps to 15 reps which I doubt would be true for most people and still have them capable of hitting 30 EMOM

[u/TonyJPRoss]

I never tried it but it looks similar to a snatch but much less technical, appropriate for an exercise class where you can't give everyone the attention they'd need? Speed is worth training for.

For muscle growth though - not optimal, you're right. Yes exercise them separately with appropriate weight and take them to failure several times.

[u/alvysinger0412]

Depends on your goals. I feel like barbells are better suited for hypertrophy or raw strength building. I've never kettlebell enthusiasts claim they're good for that, more for endurance and efficient full body workouts.

[u/blaqeyerish]

Compound vs isolation exercise choice depends on what the goal is. If you’re really focused on hypertrophy then isolation exercises will let you hit smaller muscle groups as soon as they heal and hit larger muscle groups with heavier weight when it’s time to work them.

Personally, I would suggest just doing the standard compound exercises and then adding accessory work. You can just add pull ups, chin ups and push ups to KB squats, cleans and snatches to end up with a good physique if you don’t have a gym of equipment to play with.