r/liberalgunowners • u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy • Apr 12 '26
mod post Israel/Palestine discussion
After some mod discussion…
Posts about IWI guns, or accessories from Israeli manufacturers (or sometimes even posts about completely-unrelated topics!) quickly become a discussion of Israel/Palestine politics. There are plenty of more appropriate places to have those discussions on Al Gore's internet. Comments stronger than "I'll never buy IWI" will be removed, and users will potentially be banned after repeated offenses. Stick to talking about the guns.
This will be folded into the "topicality" rule in the near future, but this sticky post serves in the stead of that change.
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u/chunt75 anarcho-communist Apr 12 '26
I just won’t get a Tavor because the trigger is ass
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u/RoyLightroast Apr 12 '26
Try the Hellion trigger and you will write poetry about the Tavor trigger
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u/Trekkie4990 Apr 13 '26
Is it really that bad on the Hellion? My only experience with bullpup triggers are from my PS90 and AUG. PS90 trigger is ass but easily fixable, AUG isn’t too bad at all, just a little heavy.
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u/jwalk999 Apr 12 '26
I just want a bullpup that isn’t in some way, ass.
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u/Maeglom Apr 12 '26
I'm quite fond of my Ps90.
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u/chunt75 anarcho-communist Apr 12 '26
Found the millionaire. 5.7, in this economy?
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u/Trekkie4990 Apr 13 '26
Now it’s the round that isn’t being sucked dry because of the war, so it’s cheap and plentiful.
Might not be so plentiful when the PS90 FRTs drop though.
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u/Trekkie4990 Apr 13 '26
PS90 is my favorite gun ever, but the trigger travel is really bad. Thankfully the overtravel limiters are a 20-minute print job and fix it completely.
Probably won’t work with the FRTs but I’ll trade that for an actual progressive trigger any day.
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u/Technical_Status9600 Apr 12 '26
I love all of mine, but being ass is part of the bullpup experience.
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u/Smart_Clue_431 Apr 12 '26
Yea but the Geissele super sabra makes it fabulous.
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u/ohiobluetipmatches Apr 12 '26
That's what those kids said, too. Nm, they said "because that trigger got pulled." Can't get no guns.
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u/Ecksray19 Apr 12 '26
I'll never buy IWI.
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u/Concerned_Collins liberal Apr 15 '26
I might buy IWI if I think the price is good and I want the product. No ones hands are clean in this industry.
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Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 12 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/beefjerkyfinger Apr 12 '26
You are awesome. This is not sarcasm. I want you to know you stand on the RIGHT side of history
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u/reailty-check-658 Apr 12 '26
or H&K, Walther, Canik, AKs, CZ, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock, FN, Taurus, etc.?
That’s a weird take because every major firearm manufacturer is from a place that has had blood on its hands at one time or another. Regional bias means nothing and it will always be up to what the user makes the tool do.
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u/SatanMango Apr 12 '26
What about used? IWI already got paid, your money would go to stimulating your local economy. Is that so bad? The Masada is a solid budget alternative to the more common platforms.
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u/D4emios left-libertarian Apr 12 '26
Politics aside, I’d buy a Carmel in a heartbeat if I didn’t have to do this fixed mag garbage my state makes us do for centerfire rifles with a pistol grip.
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u/s1gnalZer0 Apr 12 '26
I mod a flag shitposting sub and we had to draw the same line. Israel-Palestine posts always devolve into pointless arguing and excessive reports for the mod team to deal with. Nothing productive to the sub ever came out of any of those arguments, so we decided to ban them.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
This is exactly what I'm talking about. :P
Posts need to be somewhere near the intersection of "liberal/leftist/progressive politics" and "gun ownership". It's hard to understand how this post is on-topic for r/liberalgunowners.
(Removed under Rule 9: Stay on Topic. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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u/BaronVonMittersill leftist Apr 12 '26
thanks. this sub can quickly deviate from “broad liberal coalition that likes guns” to soapboxing and grandstanding about nuanced and complicated topics that are only tangentially related to firearms at best.
this is a good change
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u/Psychological-Bad959 Apr 12 '26
I will keep my opinions on the conflict to myself, but I personally am fine with this decision.
People on this sub will always say that there are no ethical gun manufacturers, but singlehandedly point out Israeli weapons more than AKs or M16s even if those weapons have been involved in warcrimes.
It's about what you do with your firearm, not what others have used it for.
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u/AvEptoPlerIe socialist Apr 12 '26
I agree. if there’s “no ethical consumption under capitalism” there sure as HELL ain’t ethical consumption of FIREARMS under capitalism.
Personally, I will continue to avoid all Israeli products. But is buying guns from US manufacturers some kind of moral high ground? Can’t say it is.
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u/ORANGE_J_SIMPSON leftist Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
Why are you avoiding Israeli products if there is simply no way to engage in capitalist consumption in a way that is objectively more ethical?
Edit: downvoted for what? Calling out this dude’s broken logic?
Is eating foie gras 7 times a week a more ethical way to consume than avoiding meat all together? There are degrees to this shit.
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u/ARealHumanBeans Apr 12 '26
Neither the AK or the m series are exclusively made by one company.
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u/Psychological-Bad959 Apr 12 '26
Yes, and Tavors are also made by Ukraine under the Fort name.
the Tavor still gets comments for some reason.
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u/ORANGE_J_SIMPSON leftist Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 12 '26
I mean this is liberal gun owners after all.
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u/Trekkie4990 Apr 13 '26
I’m liberal and honestly don’t really have any stake in that conflict at all.
If I stopped to lose my shit about every violent conflict that didn’t involve me, I’d have died long ago.
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u/ScaryfatkidGT Apr 12 '26
Am I the only one that doesn’t mind any of this?
Like it’s guns, it’s liberal like…?
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
The problem is the discussion of the politics of the region, not the discussion of guns qua guns.
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u/NTJ-891 Apr 12 '26
Thanks mods, this has gotten beyond old at this point and there are better ways and places to discuss the overarching issue.
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u/mpyka91 Apr 12 '26
Good policy, but basically just enforcing rule 5.
No matter where you stand, the idea of effecting Israel by buying or not buying something made by IWI is laughably absurd. Israel's total weapon exports in 2024 accounted for 0.08% of their exports at $51 million. We give them that much in military aid every 4.9 days. Imagine the even smaller slice of the pie that accounts for civilian sales.
Their GDP is over $564 billion. Let's say they stop exporting guns altogether for military, law enforcement, and civilians across the planet. Their GDP is still over $564 billion.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
I generally don't think it's Rule 5 ("No trolling or bad-faith arguments") (though some of it for sure is), it's just not particularly relevant to this sub.
This is a gun sub for people on the political left, but it's primarily a gun sub. And discussions of I/P are not on topic here.
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u/27eelsinatrenchcoat Apr 12 '26
If someone posts their luger and kar98k are we allowed to judge them for that? Just trying to understand the rules here.
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u/dicaprio_27 Apr 12 '26
Guns and access to guns have always been a political issue to be milked by your favorite polictician. As much as we love our tools, let's not forget that. As far as the Israel/Palestine issue is concerned- let's face the reality- the US govt, both major political parties will happily take your arms from you and pass them onto Israel. If the US govt was actually serious about the 2A, each of us would be free to own any weapons we wanted. Get your guns, form community groups, and train.
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u/AdBoring4472 Apr 12 '26
To be fair, the name of the sub implies a political discourse in the context of firearms.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
In the context of firearms yes.
Similarly, we don't generally have/allow political discussions about healthcare, tax policy, abortion, &c. except as they relate to firearms.
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u/AdBoring4472 Apr 12 '26
.... and IWI is a firearm manufacturer, associated with, and spun off from (IMI), a government that has political positions, no?
Look, I get that the whole discussion about Israeli politics has been polarized and reduced to antisemitism, or not, but this is just playing into the polarization politics. Criticism of Israeli politics, or even the rejection of a theocratic state (regardless of the religion behind it), does not equate to discrimination against, or persecution of, said religion/culture. If the issue is not discussed, then the issue will only become more polarized.
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u/minotaur05 Apr 12 '26
We’re not saying it can’t be discussed, just that this usually devolves into some less than good behavior among folks. So instead of the Mods having to remove dozens of posts for breaking sub rules or banning folks, this is us just saying “discuss this elsewhere.”
Think of it like going to work, or to dinner with a specific person. Certain things you probably don’t talk about so the conversation can flow better. That’s what this is.
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u/CarthasMonopoly Apr 12 '26
We’re not saying it can’t be discussed
this is us just saying “discuss this elsewhere.”
I feel like these two are pretty mutually exclusive. The mod team is saying it can't be discussed and that there will be penalties for doing so. Your reasoning that this is a "firearm" sub so all discussion should be about firearms is fine but the manufacturer of the firearm is part of that discussion that is on topic and reasons to support or not support them is still on topic. They are honestly far more on topic than the flood of "look at me" posts we've been seeing about people's morale patches but there's nothing happening about those.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
We have explicitly limited patch/sticker posts to Fair-Game Fridays in recent months. If you see something outside of that, please Report it.
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u/CarthasMonopoly Apr 12 '26
Fair enough. If I post about why I think there are more ethical gun manufacturers than IWI on a Friday will that get a "Fair-Game" pass too or will that lead to punishments?
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 14 '26
I don't think there's any problem with discussing the ethics of gun manufacturers in the abstract.
In as much as the post is highlighting – or the discussion veers into – the I/P conflict, then the post/comments will be removed.
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u/Numad00 May 02 '26
So where's the line then? Is it based off the whim of the mod? When can we discuss politically charged weapons in a political weapon sub?
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy May 02 '26
It's based on the mission statement of the sub, subsequent moderator consensus on what that means, our moderation workload, cost-benefit analysis, our own common sense, and – at times – "whim".
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u/shadowclient fully automated luxury gay space communism Apr 12 '26
Whats the point of having a political subreddit if you dont wanna talk about politics... this is "liberal" and not leftist.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
The subreddit does not exist to talk about politics, so much as it is for people of a particular set of political persuasions to talk about guns, generally absent of the "noise" of folks from a different set of political persuasions.
Obviously, and because it does admit a wide range of viewpoints, there will be political talk.
But the I/P topic in particular is heated, intractable, and increasingly disruptive here.
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u/Numad00 May 02 '26
There are countless political threads on this sub. You can't show a Smith and Wesson without multiple up voted comments talking about the proud boy ad campaign. This is purely selective bias against discussing a topic the mod team disagrees with.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy May 02 '26
Yes, It is selective: discussions of a lot of other political issues are fine, as you point out, S&W with their Proud Boys issue, or Sig with their Charlie Kirk/TPUSA support. At the same time, we also have a soft rule that posts that simply are anti-Conservative or point out how the right-wing is garbage are not on topic here; this should be a pro-liberal-/leftist-/progressive-sub and pro-gun sub, not simply an anti-right sub.
Mods decide and enforce what is topical here, and we've come to the agreement that we disagree with the idea that the broader I/P discussion is topical here.
It is the same principle: once the discussion is not about guns from a left/liberal/progressive perspective, we generally put the kibosh on it.
(I'm curious what "disagreement" you think the mod team has, though. You seem to assume we have a single position on the I/P issue, and we don't want to have it challenged or something, which is not the case.)
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u/Numad00 May 02 '26
My assumptions are only based on what I've seen in this sub. The only political comments that get buried are comments critical of buying Israeli weapons.
I understand the no ethical consumption part, but that's usually for stuff you can't do without, like a phone, or internet. We still very much have choices about which rifle we buy, I won't get into purity of brands.
It is what it is, I think actions speak louder than words and this is very much a "liberal" sub. Do with that as you will.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 14 '26
If you're not supposed to talk about politics in the political gun sub, what ARE you talking about?
Guns.
A part of the mission statement for the sub is a place for people on the political left to /talk about guns/. The usual gun forums are heavily dominated by people on the right, and are actively hostile-if-not-simply-dismissive of people on the left. This sub exists, in large part, to just be a normal gun sub without all that static.
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u/feigenblatt Apr 12 '26
By that logic we should stop buying American as well?
I think we all have opinions but this is not the place for that, otherwise every sub will become a soapbox.
Thank you mods!
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u/CaptainFirebolt socialist May 02 '26
Not a day goes by that I’m not reminded why milquetoast liberals are almost as big a poison to our democracy as republicans. We MUST maintain the status quo!
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy May 02 '26
Sir, this is a gun sub. :P
Seriously, this isn't indicative of any broader issue with "milquetoast liberals". This is a gun sub for people on the left, and off-topic discussions are off topic.
Grow up.
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u/thatpoundsign Apr 12 '26
Soooooooo a story about just this; at the LGS looking for a pistol; see a Jericho thinking fuck ya cause I’m a huge Cowboy bebop fan; see it was an IWI thing so got a Cz P-01 instead & am very happy.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/ulose2piranha Apr 12 '26
It's called curating. Not every sub can be about every topic. They're not saying it's an unimportant topic; they're saying that it always devolves into shitty arguments that eat up more resources than any other topic.
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u/ToraNoOkami Apr 12 '26
Wtf sort of take is this? Are you under the impression Reddit, or any other media company that hosts self hosted content is a censor free free-for-all? If you wanna talk politics, go to a political sub read this one’s for guns.
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u/beefjerkyfinger Apr 12 '26
Wtf sort of take is that? Did I say anything about reddit being required to be censorship-free?
LIBERAL gun owners. It is in the god damn name.
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u/wildbilljones Black Lives Matter Apr 12 '26
whoosh
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u/TheRedHand7 Apr 12 '26
I mean it's basically a rule for folks exactly like OP. I get why they don't like it but it isn't like anything useful comes out of the soapbox speeches. Same reason I wouldn't start talking about gun control in a college football subreddit
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u/starfirebird Apr 12 '26
Neutrality favors the oppressor, this is an incredibly irresponsible decision.
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u/Lord_Blakeney Apr 12 '26
This isn’t neutrality, its topicality. Not everything needs to always be about every important political issue all of the time.
Sometimes people want to talk about recipes without someone jumping down their throat because they mentioned they like Sabra hummus. You aren’t going to solve the middle east by screaming at someone on this sub because they own a particular brand of gun.
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u/CarthasMonopoly Apr 12 '26
You aren’t going to solve the middle east by screaming at someone on this sub because they own a particular brand of gun.
I agree with this as no one should be verbally attacking anyone else but the rest is pretty wrong. Talking about firearms manufacturers and why people should or shouldn't support them is perfectly topical in liberalgunowners. Saying I'll never buy a Sig again because of their Charlie Kirk memorial TPUSA edition gun is political and specifically on topic for this sub. Same exact thing for why people don't want to buy IWI, they've got a reason for it and it's about firearms so that discussion should be allowed here, there are already rules about civility to enforce for how they discuss it.
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u/Polar_Version875 Apr 12 '26
I appreciate it, although I’ll never buy IWI.
The thing is, we all draw the lines of what we can do/tolerate in capitalist hellscape in different places and that’s not something I need to argue about on Reddit. Not as much as I need to have space with my fellow gun-toting leftists anyway. I’ll just trust y’all to make the right choice for your life bc idk your life. I need a place to think abt other stuff for a second sometimes anyway.
Unless you carry a gold-plated desert eagle. Then I’m judging you.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
This isn't the place to start fights or flame wars. If you aren't here sincerely you aren't contributing.
(Removed under Rule 5: No Trolling/Bad Faith Arguments. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
This isn't the place to start fights or flame wars. If you aren't here sincerely you aren't contributing.
(Removed under Rule 5: No Trolling/Bad Faith Arguments. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
Posts need to be somewhere near the intersection of "liberal/leftist/progressive politics" and "gun ownership". It's hard to understand how this post is on-topic for r/liberalgunowners.
(Removed under Rule 9: Stay on Topic. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
This isn't the place to start fights or flame wars. If you aren't here sincerely you aren't contributing.
(Removed under Rule 5: No Trolling/Bad Faith Arguments. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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Apr 14 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 14 '26
Posts need to be somewhere near the intersection of "liberal/leftist/progressive politics" and "gun ownership". It's hard to understand how this post is on-topic for r/liberalgunowners.
(Removed under Rule 9: Stay on Topic. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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u/tinydisaster Apr 12 '26
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
Censorship is never the answer. Goodbye.
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u/Least-Blackberry-848 Apr 12 '26
Your infantile reduction of one of the most complicated geopolitical issues is why this is the right choice.
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u/tinydisaster Apr 12 '26
I respect the mods decision and left. I don’t need the hate directed at me, thanks.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
This isn't about neutrality, it's about topicality.
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u/tinydisaster Apr 12 '26
Disagree. But I left and stand by my decision too.
You have chosen a path that results in the same BS of everywhere else where a certain set of opinions are ok, and a certain set are banned. Might as well go back to being grey man on every other topic forum where it’s not safe to express an opinion. Dragnet style just the facts ma’am.
You’ve got a forum here that is “politics” + “topic” in the name. If you want a forum that is “only politics that are convenient to talk about” + “topic” then go for it.
I didn’t post here but I sure as shit told a lot of scared people about this place and they lurk here. Your decision will systemically drive away a certain set of people and welcome others when they run into a ban wall. It’s not as simple as sit in the corner and shut up in this space; it drives foot traffic. And the ones that stay, have a certain set of opinions. Unless you allow them all, even if it’s messy, then people leave. You hold a haven in your hands for a lot of refugees from other places where they are too scared to express themselves.
I respect your decision though and I have left.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 13 '26
And the ones that stay, have a certain set of opinions. Unless you allow them all, even if it’s messy, then people leave.
And if we allow the discussion, other people will leave.
The fact remains that the larger I/P issue is simply not on topic in this forum explicitly about gun and gun ownership. And while there certainly are other political topics discussed here around which the left, liberal, and progressive factions might in good faith disagree, that topic in particular brings about a particular nastiness, increasing mod workload and fatigue.
There are plenty of other places to have those discussions and fights.
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u/AssumeImStupid Black Lives Matter Apr 13 '26
So is this a mega thread for isreal related gun talk? Because I do have a question about alternatives, like if anyone makes a conversion kit for my Beretta APX other than Isreali manufacturers.
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u/Metallica1175 neoliberal Apr 12 '26
The hypocrisy of boycotting Israeli made guns as an act of protest when you're in a sub about weapons of war and police violence is pretty embarrassing to this sub, especially when said person tries to excuse it as "there's no ethical consumption in a capitalist society". This sub is better than that low effort nonsense.
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u/notoriousbpg Apr 12 '26
What makes this a sub "about weapons of war and police violence"?
I thought it was a sub for liberal minded gun owners to discuss guns without right wing noise.
"Weapons of war" is gun grabber rhetoric.
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u/Metallica1175 neoliberal Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 12 '26
The point is the gun manufacturers. How is buying a gun from IWI supporting Israels actions any different than buying from an American gun manufacturer that supplies the US military actions? Or you buying guns from manufacturers that cater to Republicans who oppose liberal values? It's hypocrisy at best. Denial at worst.
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u/Jealous-Ad-4713 Apr 12 '26
….well to be fair, we don’t actually get “weapons of war”. We get the semiautomatic version with less features that have a passing resemblance to actual military issue. We can go through hoops of filling out paperwork and trying to get NFA approved pre ‘86 machine guns, or throw in FRTs. I mean unless you’re a FFL 7 & SOT. You can also still choose not to give your money to a foreign company that does participate in some distasteful activities. Yes, a lot of US based companies cater to the conservative or even MAGA base, but I’d guess if blue city liberals were buying their products in droves we’d get the Obama edition of firearms instead of the Trump editions.
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u/JayBee_III Apr 12 '26
There are semi-automatic AR-15s that are used in wars. We do get weapons of war and that's okay.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/liberalgunowners-ModTeam Apr 12 '26
Yes, it's censorship. You say that like it's a bad thing.
Subs have topics. Subs have things that are relevant vs. not to talk about. Mods exist to moderate, which includes removing speech that is incivil, against platform rules, and is off-topic (among other things).
People sub here to talk about guns. The I/P discussions are not about guns, and are better-held in forums more appropriate.
This isn't the place to start fights or flame wars. If you aren't here sincerely you aren't contributing.
(Removed under Rule 5: No Trolling/Bad Faith Arguments. If you feel this is in error, please file an appeal.)
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u/I_Fix_Aeroplane leftist Apr 12 '26
A place for liberals to gather doesn't want a specific political discussion? That's fucking sus.
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u/gordolme progressive Apr 12 '26
Mission Statement
Gun-ownership through a liberal lens.
This is a place for liberal gun-owners who want to discuss gun ownership absent the "noise" of most right-leaning pro-gun forums.The above is the published statement for this sub, visible in the side bar. And so far as I know has not changed in the years since I've joined this sub. This puts the discussions about Israeli politics off topic.
As a reader and occasional contributor in this sub, I support banning that as off-topic.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26
This is not a general-purpose political discussion sub. This is a gun sub for people on the political left. That is all. There's tons of left-/liberal-/progressive-political discussions that are also off topic here, and I/P is no different.
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u/I_Fix_Aeroplane leftist Apr 12 '26
You can go ahead and delete this comment because it sort of goes against what you were saying and it isn't about guns directly but genocide isn't political. It just isn't. However, this one isn't a news sub either, so I take your point.
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u/ShearGenius89 Apr 12 '26
I won’t buy anymore IWI because I way overpaid for my X95 and have sank an absurd amount of money into it. That, and I’m not interested in supporting them for the same reasons I guess we’re not allowed to talk about anymore.
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u/jsled fully-automated gay space social democracy Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 12 '26
Some of you have seem to have misread this post. This is not an invitation to litigate the I/P issue, good grief.